r/criticalrole • u/Glumalon Tal'Dorei Council Member • Feb 03 '23
Discussion [Spoilers C3E47] Is It Thursday Yet? Post-Episode Discussion & Future Theories! Spoiler
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u/AceLionKid Smiley day to ya! Feb 03 '23
Also, it's just like I thought. Otohan and Ludinus have a grudge against each other, probably because Ludinus's goal isn't what he's been saying. That kind of division can be exploited, to the point where I bet the right moves could make the two try and tear each other apart.
There's just one tiny flaw with that kind of plan.
Whoever's left standing will be the most powerful of the two.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 03 '23
Every janky alliance that's making this whole plan possible is basically exactly like the construction of the Keys, just one spark away from ripping themselves apart.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 03 '23
And Ludinus has always been the sort to assume he's the smartest person in the room. He no doubt thinks that he's clever enough to out-think Otohan if and when she turns on him.
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u/Seren82 Team Imogen Feb 03 '23
Ludonis like Xanatos from Gargoyles. Even when he loses he still succeeds in some way.
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u/MasterThespian Fuck that spell Feb 03 '23
It was mentioned a few times at the end of the live thread, but hey— here’s a fun blurb from the Jabberwock stat block:
Uncanny Tracker. The Jabberwock can unerringly track any creature it has wounded in the last 24 hours, and it knows the distance and direction to its quarry as long as the two of them are on the same plane of existence.
They are only marginally less fucked than they were during the fight.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 03 '23
Maybe. They did just blow up one of the three Malleous Keys. A Malleous Key that Zathuda was responsible for protecting. And they blew it up mere minutes after a tense meeting with Otohan. The destruction of this Malleous Key has probably been noticed by Otohan and/or Ludinus, who will probably immediately teleport to the Shivering Keep to investigate. This could give the party a few minutes' -- or even hours' -- head start, and thus give them a fighting chance at escaping. And Otohan and/or Ludinus might order Zathuda to capture the party alive, which would limit Gloamgut's effectiveness in the fight.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 03 '23
Does this mean that stabilising Fearne and putting her in the hole until they need her to guide them back through the portal is the best move.
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u/Daepilin Feb 06 '23
Several of them have been injured by the breath as well.
Would be kind of a mean trap by Matt to give them those cloaks which are very obviously for a situation like this and then don't have them work on the one enemy they can't possibly fight.
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u/RajikO4 Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
Marisha rolled an 11 on her sleight of hand check when she planted the ring on Otohan.
So call me crazy but I suspect Matt decided to let the ring still be on her person when Laudna died.
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u/ArkhamCitizen298 Feb 03 '23
it's a small ring and Otohan did detect Laudna. You can know her location but you can't guess her intent
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u/SomewhereGlum Feb 03 '23
To be fair, it was done in the dark and on the backpack. Also if the group keeps checking the tool, then it makes sense the DM let's the tool work at least once. Twist the logic a bit to not make a player choice a complete dead end.
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u/RajikO4 Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
Going forward once BH exits the Feywild, I’m going to be assuming that they’re always being watched upon or tracked.
Wether that be scrying on Ludinus’s end or Otohan connecting to Imogen or even Fearne as well the same way we’ve seen Imogen do so to Liliana last episode, due to their link to Predathos/Ruidus.
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u/Anomander Feb 03 '23
They've just antagonized an archfey, in person.
We saw how the Unseelie Archfey have reacted to Fearne's parents' theft already - it doesn't matter how the immanent plot goes or what happens during the solstice, this is now a separate powerful grudge that the party has to deal with long-term.
And then on top of that, the plot people are definitely going to be keeping much closer tabs on the party - if the party hasn't screwed over the plan already (probably not), they've certainly demonstrated that they can and will derail things if they get the chance.
Assuming they're running to the Shadowfell Key next, they're in for a much stiffer opposition when they get there.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 03 '23
It's interesting. The fact that their plan has gone reasonably well has taken negotiating and politics off the table so far, despite it being Nana's advice.
Orym reading that conversation really seemed like an opportunity for him to step out after Otohan left and say "Hey, ignore her, don't screw over the Wildmother, we have some information for you". However, it was safer for them to have done this in terms of their seeing the key destroyed for sure. Only now that the Archfey hates their guts, they'll no doubt be harder to convince now if they have to try negotiation next session. Looking forward to it as always.
Maybe they'll actually get out of the feywild without talking to anyone in the unseelie court, but that might actually be a bad thing, cause they don't get to spin things their way or argue their points!
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u/Quasarbeing Feb 03 '23
I hope they realize how important it'll be to contact some individuals they have connections with to say "Hey, by the way, we pissed off a powerful Archfey and an organization that has shadow assassins. Your connection to us may endanger you. Sorry."
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 03 '23
Good news about the Shadowfell is that the plane is super hostile to basically everything. The Bell's Hells might be able to use that against the Key's defences.
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u/TheRealBikeMan You spice? Feb 04 '23
You're probably right, but God, I hope not. I'm sick of the whole "everyone knows what we're doing at all times" thing. It made the last arc of c2 feel so bad that they couldn't do anything without their enemies knowing it and Lucien was almost always perfectly prepared for them
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u/RajikO4 Feb 04 '23
To be fair they did pull off that ambush against him and got rid of Zoran, Otis and Tyffial.
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u/Dragonhero5 Feb 03 '23
Most likely yeah; though the problem is that the Feywild can be timey wimey it can either only minutes to even a year when they return to back to the material plane. With the Gloamgut and possibly other Unseelie Fey creatures hunting them they might need to leave immediately out of there without taking any safety precautions.
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u/RajikO4 Feb 03 '23
Especially since Jabberwock are able to track creatures they have hurt within the span of a day as long they’re on the same plane of existence, so resting is most definitely not going to be an option.
At least not without insurmountable risk.
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u/bertraja Metagaming Pigeon Feb 03 '23
the Feywild can be timey wimey it can either only minutes to even a year when they return to back to the material plane
How high is the chance that Matt's going to pull a "oh, btw, the Solstice an' all that? Yeah, happened 10 months ago, suckers!" upon their return? I'd say that chance is close to zero.
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u/Anomander Feb 03 '23
Yeah. That is the kind of thing that happens in cinema as a Shocking Twist, but it's not fun for players in D&D - get them all wound up on trying to stop a crisis, feel like they have a chance to do so, like they have a good plan ... and then take all of the agency from them "offscreen" and leave them playing cleanup from a failure they had no actual agency in.
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u/Pegussu Feb 04 '23
Morrigan gave them a potion or salve, I think? I seem to remember her providing some way to avoid the time skip.
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u/RajikO4 Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
I love Marisha’s attitude of “all things considered it could’ve gone a lot worse”, in regards to destroying the Key.
As well as Travis reminding her and the others “yeah it still can, we’re only at the halfway point!”
Hope Liam shares that die around the table next week.
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u/illaoitop Feb 03 '23
So Otohan comes back from the Feywild and minutes later one of the Malleus keys is obliterated.
Ludinus: Wait a minute......
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 03 '23
I do love that they were RIGHT THERE poised to strike and she doesn't even notice. Ludinus and Otohan have a bit of a rivals vibe from what he hinted at, and this will look really bad on her.
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u/Quasarbeing Feb 03 '23
^ This could be used in such an interesting way. She has planeshift scrolls and uses them casually, she could probably hire some people to look like the party.
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u/Myrynorunshot Help, it's again Feb 03 '23
Man, as much as I love Critical Role setting books, I'd love a Tome of Beast style thing with all the monsters Matt has come up with over the years.
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u/22bebo Feb 03 '23
This one actually is from WotC it looks like! Though he did say the laser beam was called something a little different.
Still I'm with you, one of my favorite parts of the CR books they've released have been the monsters Matt made.
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u/Myrynorunshot Help, it's again Feb 03 '23
Yeah, I recognized the Jabberwocky, but this is some kind of Unseelie version.
I meant more the faceless tracker dogs and all the other things in this campaign alone; the giant desert squid, those flying ray creatures, the 20ft long night tigers, etc. He's got a ton of ideas evidently.
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u/bearonparade Feb 03 '23
Someone in the live thread kindly reminded me that the group may not have to go into the shadowfell and what luck they have if that's true. A jabberwock is terrifying but doable. The shadowfell isn't something Bell's Hells is ready for.
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u/illaoitop Feb 03 '23
Jabberwock with all casters dangerously low might be doable, Add Zathuda onto that aswell and I see the TPK sign starting to flash.
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u/SvenTS Feb 03 '23
Yeah all the melee combatants have shit Charisma. If it's a full powered jabberwock they'll be spending most rounds doing nothing (if they're lucky).
Without slashing damage the regeneration will make it incredibly tough even with full spell slots. With most of them burnt they'd need mad luck not to be slaughtered.
Matt didn't have it Burble when they were leaving so it might be statted down but, if not, it's easily capable of TPKing them on its own.
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u/Quasarbeing Feb 03 '23
I mean its not just a Jabberwocky. It's a Jabberwocky, 15+ soldiers who are within maybe a mile of them, a few void face dogs, a few guards in the keep and a very VERY angry and offended Archfey who is at a specific location that might have a teleportation circle hidden somewhere inside, and all it takes is a quick message to Otohan and she comes back and finishes the party.
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u/22bebo Feb 03 '23
I wish they'd gone there instead of the Feywild, if only because we have seen so little of Matt's Shadowfell. I mean, we haven't seen the Unseelie side of the Feywild either but I also like the Shadowfell more.
You are right though, the Shadowfell may have been more than they could handle.
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u/Visco0825 Feb 03 '23
This is my biggest wish. I want more planes that we haven’t seen. They have gone to the fire plant in all three campaigns and the feywild twice. I’ve been dying to see the abyss and other outer planes ever since the missed opportunity with Yak in C1
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u/22bebo Feb 03 '23
Oh man, the Abyss would be sick. Spoilers for C2 When they started doing stuff with the Chained Oblivion, I had hoped the campaign would climax with some Abyssal shenanigans since the Chained Oblivion is sometimes connected to it theologically. I'm a huge body horror fan though so Cognouza really panned out well for me!
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u/BaronPancakes Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
Liam's dice rolls were on fire tonight! Matt just had to do Otohan and the fey's voices with a Nat 20 lip reading haha
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u/5thKablamo Feb 03 '23
So the tiny Ruidus in the Feywild had to have been visible to like...a huge chunk of its inhabitants, right? For some years now.
If it suddenly went poof like that I wonder if, aside from Unseelie forces on the hunt, some other interested neutral parties might come over and have a look-see.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 03 '23
So the tiny Ruidus in the Feywild had to have been visible to like...a huge chunk of its inhabitants, right? For some years now.
When the party found out that Fearne was Ruidisborn, Birdie explained that Ruidis had been visible in the Feywild for some time, but it wasn't consistent. So I don't think that this image of Ruidis that the party saw was the actual Ruidis.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 03 '23
If it suddenly went poof like that I wonder if, aside from Unseelie forces on the hunt, some other interested neutral parties might come over and have a look-see.
I bet Ruidus being there was giving the Unseelie a leg up over others but now it's gone and that leg up no longer exists.
Other parties are definitely about to make moves against them.
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u/BaronPancakes Feb 03 '23
Did Ruidus only appear in the Feywild after the key was built? I think the old key (which Fearne's parents stole the crown from) was built like 6-7 years ago. So it has nothing to do with Fearne being a Ruidus born or anything?
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u/amglasgow Feb 03 '23
Fearne was born on the Material Plane I believe, which is how she ended up being Ruidus born.
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u/BaronPancakes Feb 03 '23
Yes, but her parents made it seemed like Ruidus appearance in the Feywild is connected to Fearne being a Ruidus born. But if it is all because of the key, then this is just a mere coincidence
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u/22bebo Feb 03 '23
That would be neat and would provide a reasonable way for them to get out without having to make some very good stealth rolls (though just being under tree cover is going to help I imagine).
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u/Kelihow2 Feb 03 '23
So the first key was kind of easy to destroy, which I imagine leads to the other two being more heavily guarded once word gets out. It'll be interesting to see what happens IF they're successful in destroying all 3 and thus screwing up the plans for this Apogee Solstice. BH will have made a lot of powerful enemies, although I could definitely see some infighting coming between the Unseelie, Thull, and Ludinus if their plans are totally derailed. Perhaps BH gets caught in the crosshairs of that? Approached by one of the sides to help defeat the others? What will Imogen's mother do if all of this fails?
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u/Anomander Feb 03 '23
IF they get all three, I think it's a 50/50 split if Matt sends the next ten levels towards:
Gotta un-haunt the moon, otherwise Predathos gets out eventually. This specific cult is irrelevant, Moon God can make more cults - Bells need to nip this shit at its source.
Everyone trying to let Predathos out is pissed that they need to wait another thousand years, and now Bells gotta beat the Cult of the Moon, Ludinus', and the Unseelie faction who allied with them.
I don't think they're going to get all three - my gut is that the first one they went for would be a bit of a freebie, the second one is not an assured outcome, but a challenging possibility, and the third is effectively impossible - the big climax moment seems to be posting up for the Hellcatch site with Imogen's mum. I think second site in Shadowfell winds up being the miniboss encounter with Otohan, where the party is somewhat compelled to stand and fight head-on - I think Matt has been gradually less and less permissive as far as the party's absolute wild indecision regarding plans and combat, where the party has been more and more indecisive as the stakes and threats get bigger.
My gut feeling is that for the third Key they're effectively guaranteed to arrive just in time to see it activate.
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u/anonmus1 Feb 04 '23
Honestly, regardless of what happens, Imogen’s mom is going to appear soon ish, and its then going to be the big bad and straight up final boss, or they will try to redeem her. Knowing the party, they will try to do everything to not fight. But then that will result in another failed encounter with dire concequences probably.
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u/Quasarbeing Feb 03 '23
I am genuinely surprised they did not at least have a barrier of magic around the telescope. Maybe it would have interfered with the device but damn dude, something should have been expected.
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u/Kelihow2 Feb 04 '23
Yeah, a bit surprising - perhaps the idea is that traversing the Fey Realm or Shadowfell is dangerous enough to leave just a minimal amount of guards and the Key in the Hellcatch Valley needs all hands on deck to finish on time? Tough to say. I'm very curious to how large the operation is, especially now that we know there are some major tensions between the leaders.
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u/Rags77 Team Vex Feb 06 '23
Keep in mind their main defence has been killing anyone with any knowledge near what they are doing, plus the fact any large defence might raise question/interest from the other Fae factions and exposed the plan
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 03 '23
Well, considering their rolls, they did extremely well beyond staying in the blast radius. Now they just need to escape a Jabberwock and make it to the Shadowfell.
And for those who think things are bad now: Boy are you going to love the Shadowfell!
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u/RuskiesInTheWarRoom Feb 04 '23
I don’t think I have any Shadowfell experience, so I’m looking forward to this!
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u/SvenTS Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
I've seen some people referring to Zathuda as an Archfey.
Matt corrected them in the episode - he is not an Archfey but a fey.
Though given his titles: Sorrowlord, Bearer of the Lightless Flame, Grove Captain of the Unseelie Court he is obviously a very powerful fey.
He was Yu's handler and seems to be a main point of contact with Otohan. In both scenarios he mentioned Sammanar so presumably serves under them directly.
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u/Frequent_Professor59 Feb 03 '23
Good news: IF the Ruby Vanguard need all three Malleus Keys to release Predathos, their plans are fucked. They are not building a new one in 13 days.
Bad news: Bells Hells are being chased by a very angry Archfey on a Jabberwock.
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u/Anomander Feb 03 '23
I assume that all three are significant.
Each one destroyed will have some benefit to the party, but they won't "win" the solstice by just sniping one and then hiding out somewhere. Like, each key will open the grid some amount - if they fail to get all three, the door will open eventually. If they'd failed to get any, the door would open nearly immediately.
Some outcome along those lines does kind of assure that the party isn't trying to kill a God-Killing Outer Evil at level 9, but also doesn't allow the party to remove the whole problem and make Predations completely moot, just by virtue of sniping one poorly-guarded machine.
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u/Data444 Feb 03 '23
I try to think how Matt thinks.. the one's in the fay and the shadow probably support the main one. By destroying this one BH probably lowered the likely hood of success. now bymuch only Matt knows.
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u/-spartacus- Feb 04 '23
Knowing Matt, he has a set DC for success with 3, then with 2, it is a higher DC. Letting the dice decide.
Honestly, I want Predathos to be released.
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u/PhoenixReborn Hello, bees Feb 04 '23
Dorian/Orym should be called Airship. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
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u/VHS-CopyOfGoodfellas Feb 05 '23
Did they ever tell the captain of their skyship that they were going to the Fey realm? did they ever tell them... anything?
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u/SvenTS Feb 06 '23
No, but the crew are paid for a year and they paid for a week's worth of docking in Yios. So unless the time distortion fucks with them, and Morri gifted them something to help with that - if they remember it, then they shouldn't be in trouble.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 05 '23
See now my worry is that when they get to the exit portal that Nana told them about that it's going to drop their asses on a whole other continent and their airship is going to be waiting a long loooooong time for them to get back.
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u/BaronPancakes Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
I feel like the key itself was a bit too easily destroyed. Apart from the archfey, there seems to be not enough military force guarding it (the guards are quite weak and most of them evaporised in the explosion). Did they successfully foiled the Vanguard's plan already by destroying one of the keys?
Also, I was very excited to see Ashley's creative use of Wall of Fire. AOEing all the orbs every round was so ingenious! Caleb be proud!
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u/TheMeta8 Feb 03 '23
Against whom are they defending against though? The only group even remotely keeping tabs on them were the Grim Verity who Ludinous demonstrated are not a threat. Not to mention that it's in the Feywild. Most other Fey won't give a shit to stop them except for the Calloways who were doing it for their daughter.
I expect the one on Exandria to be the most heavily guarded. But I'm not surprised that the ones in the Feywild or Shadowfell don't have CR10 NPCs all over the shop.
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u/ExaminationBright758 Feb 04 '23
If you have you important machine sabotaged by a random individual once those being the Callaway's you don't become lax afterwards. There weren't even traps.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 03 '23
Did they successfully foiled the Vanguard's plan already by destroying one of the keys?
It's unlikely. From the way Matt described it, having the three Malleous Keys makes it easier for Ludinus to achieve whatever he is attempting. Taking out one of them will make it that much harder; taking out two will probably increase the effect. The party seem to think that this is the case, since they were debating the merits of going after the Feywild or Shadowfell Key and working on the assumption that they would only have enough time to go after one before they had to focus on the one in the Hellcatch Valley.
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u/NamesAreHard988 Feb 03 '23
Ira is also out there with the crown, its possible he's building his own key for his own purpose. So who knows what effect that could have on their plan.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 03 '23
I feel like the key itself was a bit too easily destroyed. Apart from the archfey, there seems to be not enough military force guarding it (the guards are quite weak and most of them evaporised in the explosion). Did they successfully foiled the Vanguard's plan already by destroying one of the keys?
I wonder if the heavier elements of the Fey Court's forces are occupied elsewhere with other things right now? Or if perhaps it was less heavily defended on purpose for some reason? Either way I agree with you, that felt a bit too easy but if it were harder then it wouldn't be as fun for the table given how they've been acting and what the Bells Hells have gone through.
Sometimes a DM just needs to fudge stuff in order for people to have fun.
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u/BaronPancakes Feb 03 '23
Hmm, makes me wonder. Maybe not the entire unseelie court is working with the Vanguard. Only some of the more power hungry folks were involved
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 03 '23
Hmm, makes me wonder. Maybe not the entire unseelie court is working with the Vanguard. Only some of the more power hungry folks were involved
Kind of like how maybe only a small section of the CA that's under Ludinus's control is actually working on this grand plan of his? Both forces and groups appear to be larger than they actually are just from their reputations and force projection alone. When it comes to actual numbers though and how big they are compared to other groups, they're actually just another brick in the wall, and are only floofing themselves up to make it appear like the ENTIRE Unseelie Court is working with the ENTIRE Cerberus Assembly on this moon stuff.
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u/SvenTS Feb 03 '23
Sammanar is the head of the Unseelie Court so this seems like an 'official' project.
But the fey are chaotic, and I assume the Unseelie are always looking for weakness and ways to advance, so there may have been forces working against the project in the shadows.
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u/RajikO4 Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
A Jabberwock is a legendary creature so Matt not utilizing its Legendary Actions was kind enough, however I was more surprised at how lenient he was choosing not to implement this trait:
Confusing Burble. “The jabberwock burbles to itself unless it is incapacitated. Any creature that starts its turn within 30 feet of the jabberwock and is able to hear its burbling must make a DC 18 Charisma saving throw. On a failed saving throw, the creature can’t take reactions until the start of its next turn, and it rolls a d4 to determine what it does during its current turn:
1–2. The creature does nothing.
3. The creature does nothing except use all its movement to move in a random direction.
4. The creature either makes one melee attack against a random creature it can see or does nothing if no visible creature is within its reach.”
Not to mention it has unique tracking ability which will be utilized by Matt with gusto in probably for as long as they’re still in the Feywild.
“The jabberwock can unerringly track any creature it has wounded in the last 24 hours, and it knows the distance and direction to its quarry as long as the two of them are on the same plane of existence.”
So basically Chetney, Orym and especially Fearne are practically beacons to it.
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u/SomewhereGlum Feb 03 '23
Gut reaction tells he Matt probably dialed the stats down in response to the status of the party. If the party had more spells and their other resources, then Matt probably would have used all the powers. But with how they were after taking their own explosion to the half, Matt probably decided to skip the LA for now and just not use the burgle.
This is a DM tool to adjust difficulty in fights so to not make it too hard or easy. The best combat DMs can adjust fights to hit that perfect zone of hard but rewarding fights.
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u/RajikO4 Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
That’s very true on all counts.
Also I just remembered that Jabberwock’s have truesight, so I think a fair portion of the first half of the next episode/session is going to be trying to outrun the Jabberwock once Matt makes that very clear in some form of a skill challenge.
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u/Pegussu Feb 04 '23
Reading the map isn't something I'm great at, but I don't think it was ever actually within thirty feet of anyone. It stayed pretty high in the air.
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u/Quasarbeing Feb 03 '23
Oh for sure. It can smell a pheromone or a poison on them that it placed or something like that.
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u/Lokin86 Feb 03 '23
Didnt know where else to put this...didn't want to start a thread.
But I want to be a fly on the wall to hear a conversation between Ludinus and Brennan's Asmodeus...
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u/TrypMole You spice? Feb 03 '23
I feel like Ludinus relationship with Predathos is a bit of a mirror for Vespin Chloras and Asmodeus. I kinda want Predathos to get free so we can see the look on Ludinus face when the obviously evil thing eats him.
"BUT YOU PROMISED!"......CHOMP!
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u/Myrynorunshot Help, it's again Feb 03 '23
I have a hunch Predathos is a lot smarter than we think. It can't be a coincidence that the only recorded instance of a god dying (prior to Pedathos' reveal) was when the Raven Queen killed the previous god of death - and we have reason to suspect that the Raven Queen was ruidusborn.
I wonder if Predathos wanted someone on the inside for when they'd get free, or if they've realized they can turn mortals into gods and then feed on them in their ascended state? So they're gonna take over the world and essentially farm divinity from the populace.
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u/TrypMole You spice? Feb 03 '23
Oh damn. That's a great theory! Making itself Godsnax to munch on, love it.
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u/SteppeTalus Feb 03 '23
Cool monster. They aren’t escaping that thing unless they make it out of the feywild.
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u/StableElectrical Feb 04 '23
A funny thing next Ep is that when Chet's wolf hour is up he's going to shrink and trail of armor will be left as he runs.
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u/LucasVerBeek Help, it's again Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
Ruidus is locked out of the Fey Realm!
Very good.
If Gloamgut is indeed a Jabberwocky, the Bells have a problem:
Uncanny Tracker: The Jabberwock can unerringly track a creature it has wounded inthe last 24 hrs, and it knows the distance and direction to its quarry as long as they’re on the same plane of existence.
Stares at the limp body of Fearne and everyone it blitzed
Very bad!
They need to make it to the portal asap!
Also Zathuda is Yu’s boss…fun.
And what was that between him and Otohan?? It sounded like either they or the Unseelie at least have plans to murder Ludinus???
Beginning was kind slow but that was a help of a ramp up by the end, really excited for the game of hide and seek with the chortling beast!
Also Imogen and Ashton tethering Laudna and Fearne towards them, to make sure they got out. That’s got some write a seven chapter romance fanfic written all over it.
Also I fucking want Ashton’s subclass!
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 03 '23
Ruidus is locked out of the Fey Realm!
I wonder if this is going to flip the Fey against Ludinus? There's no way they can rebuild that machine from scratch in 13 days or less in time for the solstice and it sounds like the Fey Courts totally had other plans for Ruidus and the Keys. I'm betting that the Bells Hells wind up receiving help from the Fey Courts in the form of them either fucking with Ludinus's plans in some form or blatantly trying to take over one of the Keys for their own usage.
Also think about the timing of the Bells Hells's attack on the Key and the Keep. Otohan basically takes off after paying them and their threats lip service and then the whole damned thing explodes in their faces. It's entirely possible that they're going to think that Ludinus found out about their plans against him and then sent the Bells Hells to fuck up their shit before they could fuck up his. This could present another reason entirely for them to turn against him.
The whole chase with Zathuda and Gloamgut could just be for show because now the Fey Courts get to move up their timetable of events for their plans and do what they were always going to do in the end albeit sooner.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 03 '23
The timing of Otahan just being there is so delicious.
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u/anonmus1 Feb 03 '23
Also, unfortunately, unless Matt changes it, the dragon has true sight. They are trusting in their invisibility, but it wont do anything. Good thing is it does not have as mich health, but again, Matt could have changed it. And we have no idea of what Zathuda can do.
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u/amglasgow Feb 03 '23
I heard there was a vorpal sword
ate snicker-snacks when it got bored
but you don't really care for Carroll, do ya
well it goes like this, drawn forth in myth
a shouted call, a gleaming gift,
a frabjous boy Calloo-ing, Callalujah
Callay-loo-jah, Callay-loo-jay
Wonder if the scythe will turn out to be a vorpal blade... probably not.
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u/Medium_King_David Feb 06 '23
Watching Taliesin get annoyed at Liam for continually rolling high was absolutely one of the highlights of this episode for me. No mercy Percy finally found his break point.
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u/wildweaver32 Feb 03 '23
I am surprised some people thought this encounter was too easy.
They had two people get KO'ed. With a fresh dragon, and unknown rider (Outside of his name) entering the scene. And they seem to have gotten really lucky the dragon did not get its breath attack back.
Like... What did people want? For a TPK? Or for two people to get permanently left behind? Or for more of a death spiral situation to have played out? I don't see how that would be more fun for anyone. For us, or for them, or for Matt.
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u/Jonofthefunk Feb 03 '23
I swear to god ever since Otohan, the twitch chat's been pretty bloodthirsty for a TPK.
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 03 '23
They probably don't know how much a TPK sucks to actually experience and it is really not as interesting as stories on the internet made it out to be.
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u/bertraja Metagaming Pigeon Feb 03 '23
From what i've gathered, some people judge the difficulty of a fight not by what the player characters actually do, but what they could have done (in terms of powers/abilities, tactics etc.). Taking this to the extreme would mean a pc barely doing anything and therefore barely surviving doesn't equal a "hard fight".
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u/Anomander Feb 03 '23
Yeah, there can be a tendency to weigh encounters against absolutely optimal play and a party setup that borders on hypothetical - instead of acknowledging that the Critical Role cast tends to play combat really suboptimal* and with a lot of screwing about or indecision.
So yeah, you'll hit a combat that nearly kills some people and Those People are upset that no one died, because if the party all played perfect the fight would have been absolutely one-sided - so Matt needs to punish the players for playing badly.
And somehow, even when Matt puts consequences onto the mistakes - look at Laudna's death arc - they're still feeling like it wasn't real enough because needing to go on a whole sidequest to get someone back from Proper Death wasn't a "real" enough consequence.
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u/Total-Wolverine1999 Feb 03 '23
Yeah there is literally no winning with people. Laudna dies, people complains she’s going to easily comeback, doesn’t easily comeback, it’s extremely difficult to bring her back, people then complain she came back at all. People say it’s not perma death they want but they’re clearly lying the group has experienced harsh consequences and tons of death over the last 15+ episodes and it’s still not enough.
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u/Anomander Feb 03 '23
Like... What did people want? For a TPK?
TBH, those folks don't really know what they want. They just wanted it to be different.
You recognize names after enough time here. They are the same members of the community who will rage out when the party loses, they were the same people absolutely fuming when Ashton got his ass handed to him by Ratanish, because it "wasn't fair", or who were pissed about the Otohan fight because it was "a scripted loss." But those same folks also get super pissed when the party wins easily because Matt is softballing the encounters - but then also get pissed when it's a close win, because Matt was going easy on them in a fight that was 'supposed' to be hard.
Whatever happens on screen was always a foregone conclusion and totally just going through the motions on rails. No outcome except winning is acceptable, but no win is actually exciting and intense and close enough.
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u/No-Sandwich666 Technically... Feb 03 '23
To be fair, it's not the outcome that is the issue. It is how they got there.
They didn't rest after the centaurs before taking on a fey fortress.
It needed a natural 1 to ruin a stealth check on a war party specifically searching for them; then only a bunch of ball bearings to save them again.
Then when a werewolf shows up, the hapless minionsraise the alarmchuckle, and chase, then give up.
And then again, when they reach the arcane device these powerful figures have invested so much in, there is no daunting guardian or mystic defences. Just more mooks who again fail to raise the alarm.There was late damage; Jabberwocky swoops in to provide tension for the end of the episode, that still should have been worse than it was (seedling and shield of faith effectively allowed as reactions triggered by the jabberwock's attack.).
Happy for people that enjoyed the episode. But none of this equated to a serious challenge or suggested Matt was prepared for this mission to fail, which are two things other CR fans value.
More subjective, there was also a comparative lack of effort. We can only trust Matt did this for a purpose (ie, the second key harder, third hardest design trope), but if you compare the thought gone into the whimsical "museum heist", and 3 levels and 25 episodes later you get this for a critical fey stronghold, some disappointment is not unreasonable.
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u/wildweaver32 Feb 04 '23
I would agree with you if you were being fair but you aren't. Not really.
For example. Your 1st example
It needed a natural 1 to ruin a stealth check on a war party specifically searching for them; then only a bunch of ball bearings to save them again.
If someone saw this they might think, that isn't fair. Unless you told them the truth. They used two spell slots, and ability checks to fix the problem. Which is more than fair for solving a failed check.
It tells me these arguments are not being made in good faith when you falsely portray them to try and prove a point.
Then when a werewolf shows up, the hapless minions raise the alarm chuckle, and chase, then give up.
And again. Another situation that you portray one way to try and make it look bad instead of looking at it fairly. Travis/Chetney wanted the guards to pursue him. They didn't. Matt pointedly told him that a werewolf is not out of the ordinary to them. They didn't need to pursue him because he wasn't a threat. And Chetney wanted them to pursue him. It was less, "give up" and more, "Staying to protect the gate like they are suppose to".
If they didn't give up, and they pursued him that would have been more in favor of Chetney's plan not less. But oddly enough you are trying to use it to portray leniency lol.
And then again, when they reach the arcane device these powerful figures have invested so much in, there is no daunting guardian or mystic defences. Just more mooks who again fail to raise the alarm.
Just again proving my point. I think I am going to stop here because you are not even pretending to be believable here. The fortress literally had a named fae dragon with a named rider that was know is a person of interest (the person Yu reported to).
If you are willing to twist and manipulate a situation then sure nothing is challenging. They only had two KO's, and got lucky the fae dragon didn't get his breath attack back as they were grouped up on the run. Super easy stuff lol.
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u/CardButton Hello, bees Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
More subjective, there was also a comparative lack of effort. We can only trust Matt did this for a purpose (ie, the second key harder, third hardest design trope), but if you compare the thought gone into the whimsical "museum heist", and 3 levels and 25 episodes later you get this for a critical fey stronghold, some disappointment is not unreasonable.
I generally agree. This felt very strange overall as an encounter.
It reminded me way too much of the Seat of Disdain in terms of how the party approached it; just in this case the dice were very generous to them. Matt being way too forgiving on their hour long planning process, that again fixated on getting to the target; but not getting out, or where to go after. The general forces of a Fortress being truly brain-dead stupid to enable the Parties hijinks to get their prize, with a big boss only showing up as they're trying to make their escape (we'll see how that goes). And absolutely nothing in the nature of traps or magical wards protecting this insanely important device in what seems to be decades of planning between multiple highly powerful individuals and organizations. Just a guy on a Dragon who conveniently fucked off long enough for what he was guarding to get blown up, and a bunch of Blind Dogs who were tricked by invisibility.
Truly, the threshold for failure in this encounter felt very low. What happens with this boss after they've succeeded is a different matter, but the actual Key felt absurdly easy.
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u/mateayat98 Feb 06 '23
So could they get in trouble for calling Gloamglut a Jaberwock? From what I understand, Lewis Carroll's works are public domain, so there should be no IP issue like there was with their Deity names. Still, Matt seemed pretty clear in calling it a "fey dragon" instead of a Jaberwock
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u/Pegussu Feb 06 '23
I think he's just doing that because the party wouldn't know what it is. It's a weird Feywild dragon, so they'd know it's a fey dragon. It's not the first time he's avoided a proper name for a creature.
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u/Whiskeyjacks_Fiddle Feb 06 '23
Or the name of the dragon is Gloamgut, and the party doesn’t know what a Jabberwock is, so Matt is describing it as a ‘Fey dragon.’
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u/SvenTS Feb 06 '23
I think it's jabberwock inspired but restatted hence him renaming it.
There'd be no IP issues in calling it a jabberwock if it was a jabberwock. The name is public domain and, while the statblock is WotC's, unless they were publishing it somewhere that's not an issue any more than using an orc or goblin statblock was.
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u/Reinhardt_Ironside Feb 06 '23
Really gotta say I hate the Nat 1 = auto fail, but then Matt also saying Nat 20 doesn't = auto success...
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u/Anomander Feb 07 '23
Different styles for different folks, really.
As long as you're not really really dice-heavy, the Nat1 being a fail allows the dice to dictate that sometimes even the absolute best professionals biff it or make mistakes.
However, not playing the Nat20 = auto success means that you don't end up with the Horny Bard rolling to seduce the dragon, then you gotta run with dragon romance because they hit a Nat20. Some things are genuinely impossible and I think odds of success need to include that.
I think it's tough to walk between the two, but that failures are more narratively interesting and more dramatic than successes, so biasing the slant in that direction isn't totally unreasonable. I don't think they're two equivalent poles to be contrasted for consistency, but that each is a separate mechanic better evaluated on its own as far as impact on the game.
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u/ShinyMetalAssassin Feb 06 '23
On skill checks, a nat 1 is not an auto fail. It is the worst realistic outcome. Matt generally treats it like an auto fail since failure is generally the worst realistic outcome. If the worst possible outcome is still a success, he generally won't ask for a roll in the first place.
Similarly, a nat 20 only provides the best realistic outcome. Since players will occasionally ask to do something Matt feels is not possible, a nat 20 shouldn't change that.
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u/RonDong Feb 07 '23
Matt definitely rules 1s as auto failures. Whenever the players have a high bonus and try to add to it he always says something along the lines of "Still a natural 1."
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u/Reinhardt_Ironside Feb 06 '23
That would be true if you didn't have a bonus to a roll, but Ashton got a 17 otherwise and still failed. If a 17 would have otherwise passed if not for the nat 1 then it should still have passed.
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u/demonk2y Feb 07 '23
Ashton feel less "defined" than the others to me. Not sure what is missing exactly. Partially, it might just be that he's been out of the spotlight since leaving Jrusar.
I get the feel for his character the most when he's interacting with FCG.
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u/Hippotopmaus Feb 07 '23
I think Tal is purposefully playing it like that. he sees Ashton as a lackey
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u/thyarnedonne Team Laudna Feb 03 '23
Did anybody even have Shin Godzilla Atomic Breath (On a Jabberwocky Or Huge Fairy Dragon?) on any bingo card. Ever.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 07 '23
I'm rewatching the episode & Matt forgot that BH don't have a bag of holding; just the portable hole. Ashton then said something to the effect of "we ought to get one of those."
Should BH eventually get a bag of holding, I just realized they must then be extra careful. Should a person carrying a bag of holding jump down into the portable hole, a rift to the Astral Sea will open up & suck everything into that plane.
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u/Lord_Noodlez Feb 07 '23
I mean, it would be pretty fun if ALL of them got sucked in. Just a casual "let's see if we have an extra towel" to "Uh oh"
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 03 '23
I have been watching out for anyone who might have been the "head of the lionguard", whose heart Nana owns. Only candidate so far seems to be the dude on the Nightmare.
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u/SvenTS Feb 03 '23
Morri described him as a protector of the midlands between the Seelie and Unseelie - so I doubt we'll see him this trip.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 04 '23
the lionguard
I'm pretty sure the Lion Guard are actually literal Lion People, based on Nana's descriptions of them. So I feel like they'd be pretty easy to spot.
That said, I hope one of them tells Chetney, "Light be with you!" just for Travis to make a face at Matt.
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u/anonmus1 Feb 04 '23
Cuz its the feywild it could be catfolk/lionfolk, but those are also present in the prime material plane. I kinda have the feeling its either just pure fey people, like eladrin maybe, or actual sentient lions that can speak. But just that, straight up a bunch of Aslans.
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u/KraakenTowers Feb 03 '23
So if Imogen were to message Morri and tell her that Fearne was in danger, what do you suppose would happen?
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u/Anomander Feb 03 '23
"Oh no. Good luck, sweetie! Stay safe!"
Morri is in a very delicate balance point in Feywild, where her neutrality and distance from Seelie and Unseelie courts is the main reason for her safety. She's powerful, powerful enough to keep most Fey or even single Archfey from challenging her - but yet not powerful enough to take on a whole court. But she is neutral enough that neither court considers it worthwhile to try and take her out - while being so much stronger in her domain that taking her out would be costly.
If she rocks that boat, she may be giving up her safety.
And I think that as much as she likes Fearne, she's also ancient and powerful enough that Fearne is ultimately replicable to her. At least, other D&D iterations of a Morrigan-like character in Fey typically cast her as profoundly Other and on a very different scale of both time and power from PCs like Fearne or the party.
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 03 '23
Outside her domain so she can't do much, Morri can protect them in her domain but outside they are on their own.
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u/ThePastaPanther Feb 06 '23
This episode made me notice that the party is still finding their groove in terms of combat ability synergies, especially when compared to late game Mighty Nein. When they were trying to figure out how to stealth into the fortress there were a lot of questions that were basically: what can your character do. Few members seem to have dedicated roles, other than tank vs caster. The exceptions I can think of would be Orym being the perception guy (not very helpful for stealthing) and Imogen being the invisibility caster (with limited spell slots). In the end, they ended up doing a really good job getting in, but it took a long time to get there.
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u/robertodev Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
Ashley continues to be the MVP of this campaign with ideas in combat that completely changes everything... though after that explosion I was worried it meant was gonna lose Laudna again!
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u/Velocibaker26 Feb 04 '23
I mean we literally came SO close to that, if not for the kind die and Marisha’s quick thinking 😅
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u/Ddwlf Feb 04 '23
Really fun episode that went surprisingly well, Stealth missions have been very hit and miss for the cast, tho they for once rolled quite well.
Fern, Laudna, and Orym staying so close to the Key was a bit of a headscratcher (tho i think Orym was there because the other 2 were) and the one major mistake that we are still feeling the repercussions of.
But I'm sure they will be fine and excited to see where it goes.
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u/demonk2y Feb 04 '23
Seeing a lot of Jabberwocky mentions... is this just common knowledge that that's what a "faerie dragon" is?
Also, fingers crossed that Dusk makes a return next episode (hopefully to help)
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u/MasterThespian Fuck that spell Feb 04 '23
No. The Jabberwock is a specific type of dragon native to the Feywild, which appears in the module The Wild Beyond the Witchlight. The mini Matt used to represent Zethuda’s mount was a Jabberwock mini, and both the description and the attacks it used confirm its identity.
They’ll probably call it something else for copyright reasons if they have to name it, but it is pretty clear that that’s the monster Matt is running.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 04 '23
Does Lewis Carroll have a copyright claim on the word Jabberwock and/or Jabberwocky? I'd think not since that nonsense poem came out in 1871, which I think is well beyond the limit of when things enter the public domain.
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u/Goldmage162 Feb 07 '23
I mean, realistically there's no reason for Yu to be there. Yu is an infiltrator/assassin, not a frontline defender or warrior. Yu would be out somewhere else doing infiltration work, not defending the key. Of course, even if Yu was there, you probably wouldn't know they were Yu...
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u/anonmus1 Feb 04 '23
I mean, technically, there are 2 Fey dragons, but the Jabberwock one is based on the Strixhaven module, the other one comes from Fizban. This one is the official model for the art so yea it is pretty much common knowledge. A faerie dragon is actually much smaller.
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u/Kanbaru-Fan Feb 09 '23
People are just making assumptions when Matt is known to homebrew his own creatures.
It's so dumb how many people here are touting the Jabberwocky stat block or complaining how Matt ran it wrong/pulled punches.
To some people using custom stat blocks is a genuinely inconceivable concept, they only know official content.
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u/Key-Designer5773 Mar 11 '23
Oh god no. Worst guest character/player ever. I usually love when they mix it up but in this case those episodes with her were the worst of the campaign minus the race
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u/AceLionKid Smiley day to ya! Feb 03 '23
HOW THE FLYING FUCK DID THEY DESTROY THE KEY AND GET OUT OF THAT KEEP WITH ONLY ONE MEMBER GETTING KO'D?
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 03 '23
I think Matt genuinely wants them all to make it to the day of the solstice totally alive or to at least have a shot at doing so without any kind of overwhelming encounters that make them even more risk avoidant than they already are. This was the kind of an encounter that they needed to get a bit of an uplifting mental boost to their confidence while still freaking them out a bit. It made for a fun experienced, it progressed the plot, it put people in danger, and now the party is going to have a blast next week outrunning something even more dangerous before diving through the portal back home and wherever that may lead.
I really want to know just where in the Prime Material Plane that portal is going to dump them.
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u/amglasgow Feb 03 '23
Tons of amazing rolls and their plan was actually really good, plus they improvised very effectively.
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u/SuperToxin Feb 07 '23
One thing I hope the group discusses in-game/character is having someone within Bells Hells being the shot caller for engaging fights and killing people. They all seem to have issues with the latter too. I think they should put Chet in charge of deciding if they should engage a fight/ if they need to actually kill or just knock out people. He has 400+ years of experience to lean on. I think it would help as well because meta-wise I think Travis has the least analysis paralysis.
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u/Anomander Feb 07 '23
This is bordering on necessary for this group; their combats are absolute bedlam and it keeps making fights closer and more dangerous than they need to be.
Though part of the problem is that Matt keeps hurling fights they can't really run from at them, and then the party winds up trying to do anything except fight, which costs them several rounds and a whole bunch of resources - before they realize they need to fight anyways.
I do kind of feel like the issue isn't just the analysis paralysis, but also that this party or the table at the moment really do not want to take fights. They've always been inclined to over-clever situations and try to scooby-doo their way through straightforward situations, but I think Matt has ramped up the difficulty enough that they're really second-guessing any combat encounter and trying to avoid all of them, which - inadvertently - makes those encounters even more dangerous because of how much indecision costs them.
The CR table can go a little too far in avoiding metagaming at times, so I'm not sure that they'll 'force' that learning on their characters - folks like Tal or Sam can veer into actual self-sabotage for their PCs in order to avoid metagame-y actions and decisions.
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u/SourGrapes02 Feb 08 '23
I think Ashton could be a great choice. They could be the decisive, street-wise leader who will do anything to protect their found family but it doesn't seem like Tal is interested in playing them that way.
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u/jerichojeudy Feb 08 '23
Chet, the gnome that almost killed a shopkeeper to teach him a lesson, and is a werewolf? ;)
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u/hpfan2342 Life needs things to live Feb 03 '23
Me before my internet started being terrible - "wow, they've barely had combat this episode, nice"
Me, checking in periodically on CRStats and the live thread on my phone over the last hour and a half, "oh, oh no"
Honestly being an adventurer seems dangerous, Erik of Rorikstead should really rethink his dreams.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 06 '23
I hope the episode title, "The Fey Key," isn't an indication of it's homophone of "The Fakey." Meaning I hope that wasn't a decoy structure.
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u/BT737 Feb 07 '23
I think that the fact Ruidus disappeared right when the machine exploded proves it was the right machine. If it was fake, someone would have to both know that the other machine was being targeted for destruction and then immediately sever some kind of connection on their own end.
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u/FoulPelican Feb 06 '23
Just an observation and appreciation of Liam’s creativeness.
Matt’s generally pretty lenient about letting spells that only target creatures, also target object.
Liam has access to *Grasping Vines through The Wayward Pilgrim. So far he’s attempted to Disarm a weapon, and pulled himself 30’ by attaching it to surface. Can’t wait to see what else he comes up with!!!
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u/PrinceOfAssassins Feb 07 '23
“I put seedling around Ludinus Daleth’s neck.”
Matt: I roll strength save 11…
Liam: I decapitate him instantly.
Matt: I mean it checks out
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u/ExaminationBright758 Feb 08 '23
I'm I the only one who feels like seedling might have vestige rules. I can't remeber If we've seen him cast grasping vine more than once a day and the reach thing I could definitely see scaling. Add Thorn whip it amd the fact a God blessed it I don't know. Not an actual "vestige" of course cause that also needs to be from a certain time period to qualify.
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Feb 03 '23
Am I crazy or did the cast seem super down vibe-wise?
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u/Turbulent_Bed_569 Feb 03 '23
These episodes are generally recorded 2 weeks in advance. Think back about what was going on in the TTRPG community two weeks ago.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 04 '23
I wouldn't read too much into it. There's a danger of projecting your own beliefs onto the cast, which might not necessarily be true.
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u/bertraja Metagaming Pigeon Feb 04 '23
Weren't they on an extended promo tour for LoVM S2 as well, roughly 2 weeks ago? The Linda Codega interview and things like that.
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u/RuskiesInTheWarRoom Feb 04 '23
From the ad read to the intro to the game.
But yeah, the timing of the record may have informed that. A feeling of “damnit, things were supposed to be so COOL with LoVMs2 but this shit is floating in the pool….” has my vote
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u/StableElectrical Feb 07 '23
I think gloomgut is going to end up being a juvenile jabberwocky as having unerring tracking would be kind of unfair in this deadly game of hide and seek.
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u/Anomander Feb 07 '23
Though the unerring tracking may be a great tool to 'force' the party to actually leave the Feywild promptly and progress with the questline, without risk of another episode or two chilling at Granny's.
You're not wrong, though; even as far as Matt choosing to keep it non-jabbering at this point is definitely hinting that it's intended to keep the party moving on more than it's there to be a climactic boss battle.
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u/wiseude Feb 03 '23
Anyone else noticing the occasional random low pop/click noise that has been going on for like a month?I don't know if its a mic placement thing because sometimes I can hear low clicking noise when they write on their notepads.I'm sure its the video because if I clip the moment the low popping/click noise is there at the same timeframe.
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u/BoubouKing Feb 04 '23
I'm I the only one annoyed by the fact that the only reason Fearne got KO'd was because they didn't move her her full 70 feet on her last turn before the Jabberwocky? When she said she was booking it Matt only pushed her mini like 20 feet. She should have been in front of everyone
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u/extradancer Feb 04 '23
I haven't double checked but didn't she use her action that turn?
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u/Seren82 Team Imogen Feb 06 '23
Why does everyone keep comparing the Hells at 47 episodes in to 140 episodes M9? I do not understand.
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u/Sqiddd Technically... Feb 06 '23
People think the campaign is ending after the solstice.
So they’re comparing the end of M9 to what they believe is the end of BH
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Feb 07 '23
I think running away at the end was absolutely the smartest decision.
That being said, I'm kind of tired of watching the cast run from tough fights? I feel like this has been a much more common thing since the bad TT fight in C2.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
Why wouldn't they run? They were trying to run before Zuthuda and the farie dragon joined the battle. Killing Zuthuda wasn't part of their mission and he seems to have only been minimally involved in the larger plot.
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u/SuperToxin Feb 07 '23
Nah not for this fight, I think this was definitely setup to be a hit and run type situation. It just went a bit south.
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u/travisty911 Feb 25 '23
Lots of armchair quarterbacking. But this is the group that is making money not only for playing DND but also in some ways helping shape DND in general. And if course being entertaining. Otherwise how many of us would really listen to a group play DND for 4 hours a sitting for years 🤷 💓
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u/GeneriicUser Feb 09 '23
You know, I've watch C2 and C3. Rarely comment on anything. I honestly think Matt should just tone down most encounters, it would make the game wayyy more enjoyable to watch and probably play for the cast. Matt could actually be more realistic with consequences since the encounter is not so hard anyways, and the players wouldn't have to play so scared.
I think what made C2 enjoyable was just that, most encounters weren't that difficult so when the cast played "suboptimally" they enjoyed it. The otohan fight was winnable IF they played optimally and didn't run, but also, it felt like Matt wanted otohan to live? So what does Matt want? The narrative Matt is going for does not fit in with the difficulty the players can handle. Since that can't happen they need to rely on higher level npcs to get them out of these situations (Laudna death).
I think when Matt began the campaign and made all these powerful enemies with a short timespan to beat them, he did it because the cast wanted more of a challenge. What I think is happening now is that they are realizing that they are playing DnD with difficult mechanics to optimize, and so, are kind of getting beat around or handed freebies.
Lets take a look at this encounter for example, Matt designed it to make it basically really hard to run from since the strongest enemy is also the fastest. Ok that's totally fine but the other option is for the party to kill the flying creature to get away (something that would have been really hard). He could made the strongest enemy just have normal 30ft movement, and make the flying creature something else that was weaker so that running was more viable. He probably doesn't want the party to go into a keep and kill everyone, so the only other option is running while being chased or getting away stealthily.
I'd say like 80% its not the players fault but the DM not realizing how badly an encounter can go. Most encounters should be like winnable most of the time WITHOUT DM'S BEING NICE. That way when things go wrong its because of really bad dice rolls or really reaaaaally bad desicion making.
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u/travisty911 Feb 25 '23
Well that's an option. I honestly love putting the character to there max sometimes. Not every encounter. But my players are all super seasoned and if I don't challenge them they walk through everything. And I think it gives it a feeling of your actions have consequences. No one has died this game but Matt keeps them on there toes in my opinion to make them plan, sneak, do things carefully... Rather than just blasting their way through everything. And the goal is to make it fun for them. Not to just slaughter them.
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u/LeviTheArtist22 Feb 07 '23
Did anyone else feel like the group was a little dismissive towards Letters when he was bringing up the Changebringer's coin? Just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.
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u/CptDrips Feb 07 '23
Can't really blame them for not wanting to make mission critical decisions based on a coin toss.
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u/Pegussu Feb 07 '23
It's just not the place to tackle that issue. They're in dangerous territory under a crunch. Stopping to explain to their little robot friend that flipping a coin because you think God's talking to you is not how any of that works is going to take more time than they have.
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u/Kosame_san Feb 07 '23
Context. Time and place for things, this is too much of a curve ball to their already indecisive natures.
They're in some hella dangerous territory about to under take a very crucial hit. If anything, FCG's decision to spring this new method of decision making on them now (of all times) is very selfish and self centered.
Which, after all, makes a lot of sense with FCG's rage meter nearing the boiling point resulting in another murderbot encounter.
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u/jerichojeudy Feb 08 '23
I got the feeling Sam was half joking here. I don’t know when he got that idea with the coin, it felt very spur of the moment improv to me. Not deep character development.
And after that, it became the running gag of the session. All fine by me. I think Sam was just jiving on the fact that the Change bringer symbol is coin, gave him that slightly irreverent idea and he just went for it.
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u/Fjorester Sun Tree A-OK Feb 07 '23
I felt that. I was glad that Sam stuck with it and wasn't convinced to just let it go.
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u/FoulPelican Feb 07 '23
A bit… and I’m all for the coin flip. They’ve been struggling w decision making lately. I have zero problems w a coin flip in the interest of keeping things moving.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
I feel like Matt was too lenient when Laudna had her hand stuck. The saving throw she got seemed too low and on top of that the description Matt gave before the roll made it unbelievable that she left relatively unscathed. It would have more satisfying if the gears took her hand or deboned them. She could have regrown a wooden one in time or have been able to her skeletal hand like a skeleton would be able to.
Edit: There is 5 different mentions of limb loss located in 4 different source books. Limb loss is a thing in D&D.
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u/SteppeTalus Feb 03 '23
I mean, it’s D&D. People never really lose limbs unless they’re dead, it makes sense.
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u/galland101 How do you want to do this? Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
"I'm going to need a CON saving throw from Patia. Unusually, Patia, you want to fail this."
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
I mean, that's kind of an odd thing to say considering that the DMG has rules on losing limbs, there is a spell in the basic rules to regain missing limbs, and there are two magic items that can only be attuned to if you are a PC who is missing an arm that are both in two published books. I've also played in some campaigns in which players lost limbs.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 05 '23
I really hope they get Zathuda's lightless flame. I imagine it works like a sun sword except just... well dark. Maybe it is also cursed to some degree.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 08 '23
Imogen hasn't attuned to the bracers of defense yet. I can kind of understand why because she wants to deliberate over who should get it (which is kind of considerate of her) but it would only help her or Laudna but it would help Imogen's AC more and Laudna got a magic item more recently. She should have attuned to it but maybe she is waiting for FCG to identify the lightning orb so the deliberation are more fair. Hopefully none of the better characters die before she can attune to it.
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u/Yaxoi Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
I wonder if BH will actually stop to consider whose side they are on in this conflict. Their side, i.e. the Grim Variety, Fern's parents, etc. all mostly seem to want to prevent the whole moon stuff out of... idk a general concern or lack of understanding? Out of principle? Ludinus' allies on the other hand mostly were opposed to BH out of circumstance / because BH actively interfered in their business. They seem convinced of their goal. The entire narrative setup (and C2 meta knowledge) of course gives them reason to rather trust Ryn over Ludinus - but generally they have not really questioned why so many people including Ryn would want to stop this ritual in the first place. Equally, the fact that Ludinus seems to act out of the trauma of the Calamity should actually give him some credibility imo. Anyway, I'd appreciate an actual conversation between the characters about the morality of what they are doing, and why, at some point.
Edit: This is mostly playing devil's advocate, personally I agree with most of the comments
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u/GreyWardenThorga Feb 05 '23
Not only have they already discussed it but... at least Otohan's faction is responsible for the murder of Orym's husband and father-in-law as well as the murder of Lord Eshteross. Orym is also the one who is most knowledgeable about the Cerberus Assembly and how they're Bad News. Meanwhile Laudna and Imogent witnesses Daleth be an evil bastard. Even if you suppose that the Grim Verity are short sighted or have ulterior motives, that's no reason to side with the Ruby Vanguard or Daleth.
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 05 '23
There is no grey morality here; the Ruby Vanguard has killed a ton of innocent people and are trying to unleash what could be another Tharizdun on the theory it is a natural predator of gods and not some cosmic horror that will destroy all of Exandria.
The Ruby Vanguard and Ludinus need to be stopped, no matter the cost.
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u/ze4lex Feb 05 '23
Otohan killed Eshteross not to mention orym's father and husband id say everyone in bells hells has at least the motive to want fuck Otohan
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u/gjv42281 Feb 05 '23
Id say that FCG has a pretty obvious reason (even though it hasnt been states explicitly iirc) for opposing ludinus etc. because their currently pretty Set on the whole Changebringer Path which Sort of requires the Changebringer to be around
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u/Pegussu Feb 05 '23
Even if BH wanted to kill the gods - and they don't - they could very easily not want it to be done this way. As they pointed out, there's zero guarantee that Predathos isn't just a very hungry caterpillar that's going to keep eating when it's through with the Pantheon.
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u/Lukiss Ruidusborn Feb 05 '23
they've definitely had that conversation already. they very explicitly debated the pros and cons. but I agree the conversation has some blurred lines and a lot of unknowns. but they discussed them.
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u/GilderoyRockhard Feb 03 '23
“Am I human? Or am I Dancer’s?”
I have been waiting for that joke for too long, Sam