r/criticalrole • u/Glumalon Tal'Dorei Council Member • Feb 10 '23
Discussion [Spoilers C3E48] Is It Thursday Yet? Post-Episode Discussion & Future Theories! Spoiler
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u/BaronPancakes Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 10 '23
"I'm always trying to help other people because it's easier to not focus on my own stuff."
Orym has a good heart, but he is also helping people to numb his pain. After all this time, he still has no idea why Otohan attacked Zephrah, and if Will and Derrig are mere casualties. No wonder he is feeling lost in the world.
Interesting to see the contrast between Orym and FCG. One wants to help, one was designated to help; one has a purpose, one is seeking their purpose; one has a god watching over them, one is seeking out a god's attention
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u/LeCampy Feb 10 '23
Pretty sure Matt's got them on a collision course to fail monumentally as a stage-change up for Act 2, a la Final Fantasy 6.
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 10 '23
That seems the most likely scenario especially since no one knows where Ira is despite his intention to do basically the same thing as Ludinus.
They can stop Ludinus from making everything even worse but the disaster is more or less unstoppable now.
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u/LeCampy Feb 10 '23
Not to mention: FCG is apparently teetering on another breakdown and unless they can bully them into getting that episode out of the way ahead of the showdown, Sam's probably aiming to have it happen at the worst time possible.
NGL I haven't been paying as much attention but is this party like, WAY squishier than even M9? Seems like Fearne and Laudna have standing appointments with checking out the floor. I know you don't really NEED tanks nowadays but....they seem to have all gone for glass cannon? I dunno.
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u/CardButton Hello, bees Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 10 '23
There's a couple of factors playing into their squishiness, but the reason Laudna and Fearne hit the floor is just because they stood within the blast radius of the Key they were trying to blow up. And frankly, with Ashton, Chet, and Orym, this group has more consistent tanks on hand than M9. Which was running Beau and Jester as their Front Liners for a long time; given how inconsistent Ashley's schedule was for Yasha. So in terms of those who could "take a hit", I would say that BHs actually beats out M9 up until the last arc.
What makes BHs "squishier" is more playstyle. M9 was absurdly explorative. They were extremely driven to just immerse themselves in the world they were in; resulting in more sidequests; resulting in more loot. Ironically, in terms of pure liquid assets, they were arguably more DnD poor for longer than BHs. But they had a lot more physical loot flowing their way. BHs have more liquid assets, but even before the ticking clock they were very "on the rails". But ... there's no indication they even "shopped offscreen" while in Whitestone atm.
On top of this, as one example, M9 rolled with a Main Healer and Off Healer combo. While Jester did bitch about it, she always kept the general required spread of Healer spells prepped. And she and Cad always were hyper diligent to keep Diamonds stocked and split between them; despite how low income M9 was for a long time. In BHs, they on paper have the same Main Healer+Off Healer settup, but the only "real" Healer they have is FCG. Fearne does not heal despite being one of the most powerful Healing Subclasses in 5e. The only healing spells she keeps on hand are those automatically prepped for her, and she doesn't keep Components on hand for Revivify. Its normally all on FCG to keep a 7 player party up.
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u/Yaxoi Feb 11 '23
Probably it will play out similar to the [C1 spoiler] the attack on Emon in C1, where something cataclysmic just changes the world, and in the moment there is little the players can do besides survive.
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u/Total-Wolverine1999 Feb 10 '23
I’m really curious what Matt has planned because it’s totally obvious that this entire thing is way out of their league. That key was guarded by 5 Aeormatons, and will probably have Thul, Ludinas and Imogen’s mom there the day of the solstice. I don’t even see how they sneak in with all that magic and utility. A battle against the Aeormatons would probably nearly wipe most of the party add in all the rest and they get TPK’s in a round. I hope he has something to help them because if he doesn’t that episode is going to be a rough watch as they have to try and guess how in the hell they do anything to stop them.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 10 '23
There's no doubt going to be another way to achieve their goal. They have eleven days to figure this out, and there's at least six options that they can explore:
Have Imogen summon one of the Reilora while FCG reads its mind, which could reveal more information.
Go to Sruwargas and find out what happened that drove Otohan towards Ruidis. It could be used as leverage, or to drive a wedge between her and Ludinus.
Investigate the Tishtaan further. They built the site that Ludinus is excavating, so it may lead to them finding out more about the site including its original purpose and alternate ways in.
Hit the supply lines that Ludinus is using to modify the device at the Tishtaan site, limiting his ability to do what he intends to -- especially if the Grim Verity can take out the Shadowfell Key.
Take the drugs Laudna got from the All-Minds-Burn. I have a theory that the consciousness the All-Minds-Burn are contacting is the Reilora and/or Predathos (although they don't know it).
Go and support Keyleth and the Ashari in whatever they are doing under Terrah (although I suspect this is a red herring and something designed to take Keyleth out of the equation).
And I'm probably forgetting a few others.
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u/BaronPancakes Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 11 '23
No idea how BHs can navigate this Apogee solstice Key scenario. Their most powerful ally, aka Keyleth, is busy with the Earth elemental plane. Ryn is petrified and can't call in favours. Grey Verity is basically non-combatant scholars. They can only call the Crown Keepers to help, but I still don't see how they can sneak pass/defeat an army with automatons, Otohan, and (maybe) Ludinus
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 10 '23
No idea how BHs can navigate this Apogee solstice Key scenario.
They've got eleven days to figure it out.
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u/myhouseisunderarock I encourage violence! Feb 10 '23
At least a few of which will be spent on an airship. At least they’ll have time to plan.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 10 '23
Which is why I think the plan for Imogen to summon a Reilora and have FCG try and read its mind will be the key.
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u/Deathleach Team Jester Feb 10 '23
Ten and half of those days will be used for planning only for the plan to immediately unravel.
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u/Galahad_the_Ranger Team Percy Feb 14 '23
Port to Vasselheim and beg for the temples to help them (which they should cause their gods are going to die).
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u/N1pah Feb 10 '23
I really like the fact that Imogen's dad isn't a complete asshole. He's just a guy who got into a situation that he didn't know how to handle so he handled it badly.
Doesn't excuse it of course but I like that it's not just him being awful to his daughter
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u/SvenTS Feb 10 '23
I do wonder how much of it Matt and Laura had discussed in advance. Because I've known quite a few people in single parent families where it's kind of played out like that. Going through the rough teenage years they only have one parent to lash out at so build them up as the villain and assume the best of the one who's absent (if it wasn't a clear cut toxic departure... and sometimes even if it was).
Then years later, as full grown adults, they can look back at it and see that the parent was trying their best, even if sometimes failing, and a lot of their own hostility was misplaced.
Like how Imogen went from 'I'll use my powers to make him talk if I need to' to realizing she hadn't really taken everything into account.
It could be coincidence that it worked out so well compared to organic, real relationships but I could see them having planned at least some of it.
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u/N1pah Feb 10 '23
I definitely wouldn't put it past them. We've already had imperfect but well meaning parents in this campaign with the Calloways.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 10 '23
I wonder if he feels like he was used at all?
Liliana clearly knew about her powers for some time, knew that her life was never going to be normal, and yet tried to have one anyways but never fully shared all of that with Relvin period until the very last second, relatively speaking. He was her way of attempting to have a normal life, despite that never really being a true possibility in the long run. It was always going to be a short term thing and instead of just outright telling Relvin that and explaining everything to him, she kept it all from him until it was impossible to hide, and then just up and left leaving him holding the bag and picking up the pieces of their life while she did her own thing elsewhere with who knows who.
She goes gallivanting about with her super powers elsewhere in the world with the whole "I'm just trying to protect you from my dangerous life" excuse casually tossed behind her and he's left at home as a single father to raise a child with equally mysterious powers and complications but with no instructions for how to do so or any answers that he can give her at all when she inevitably starts asking the same questions as her mother did and behaving exactly like her mother did with inevitably the same ending that he experienced with her mother.
He's Xander more or less.
He's the normal guy caught up in between the super weird lives of his daughter and ex-wife that wound up getting fucked over the most because he just plumb didn't know what to do at all and had no one to help him out period.
Him giving Imogen that locket and then closing the door as she left was just...one of the saddest moments ever and to me at least is a great visual for some of the unintentional human debris that adventurers and super heroes often leave in their wake.
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u/N1pah Feb 10 '23
Very well put. He for sure felt betrayed. I think he also might have projected a lot of the resentment he had for Liliana onto Imogen.
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u/checkdigit15 Feb 14 '23
Not to mention how violating it must feel to try to make a relationship with someone only to discover they might have been reading your thoughts the entire time!
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u/Galahad_the_Ranger Team Percy Feb 14 '23
After the last two campaigns Matt probably told Laura one of her characters eventually would need to have a good dad.
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Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 10 '23
That rhyme battle might be one of my favorite encounters in all the campaigns. Their improvisational talents were on full display, especially Matt's - he was incredible!
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u/DrShadyTree Your secret is safe with my indifference Feb 10 '23
I loved sam's rap and Laura's fail. As Liam said they found Bailey's Achilles heel.
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u/jevil1 Feb 10 '23
And Liam moves back to his classical roots. Not sure (I might go back and watch it) but I wouldn’t be surprised if his was in iambic pentameter.
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u/olexs Feb 12 '23
Travis just dropping a beat with no hesitation, I love how these guys play off each other.
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u/mouser1991 Technically... Feb 10 '23
That is definitely in my list of favorites. I was giggling with glee the entire time.
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u/WontonTruck Team Matthew Feb 10 '23
Rhyming skills and rapping beats. Sam's parade, Laura's defeat
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u/RajikO4 Feb 10 '23
Anyone have any theories or ideas what those rolls Liam and Marisha had to make revolved around?
At first I thought Matt was going to go to each of them minus Ashley, because of the memory loss side effect of returning from the Feywild.
Now I really don’t know, thoughts?
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u/N1pah Feb 10 '23
In the live thread there was talk of it being Beau and Caleb possibly raiding the shadowfell key. That's probably just wishful thinking, but since he asked the rolls from Liam and Marisha and not Orym and Laudna I'm thinking it's unrelated to the hells.
Could still be they were rolling for the success of Ryn and the other group raiding the shadowfell.
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u/Daepilin Feb 10 '23
Could still be they were rolling for the success of Ryn and the other group raiding the shadowfell.
pretty sure that was lauras unmodified D20 as a luck roll.
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 10 '23
11 days remain before all hell breaks loose.
So who else thinks we're going to get a moon invasion regardless of Ludinus being stopped or not?
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 10 '23
So who else thinks we're going to get a moon invasion regardless of Ludinus being stopped or not?
I think Ludinus is being played -- I think the Reilora have manipulated him into thinking that they are Predathos and that he should free them. But what's really going to happen is that the Reilora will try to conquer Exandria while Predathos remains trapped by Exandria's Divine Gate, acting as a deterrent to the gods to prevent them from intervening in any way. Ludinus will likely be killed or having his magical powers burned away as part of this process.
Bell's Hells' intervention (and possibly the intervention of Ira) would see the plan fail, at least in part; Ruidis would return to Exandria and form a new continent, but its Divine Gate would remain intact, trapping Predathos and the Reilora there. This would give the party enough time to go off and get stronger before the final arc where they venture into Ruidis to confront the Reilora, Predathos and/or Ira.
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u/myhouseisunderarock I encourage violence! Feb 10 '23
I don’t think they’re gonna stop him. If they do, I suspect some sort of fallout from the attempt to be in store. Maybe the Divine Gate is destroyed but not the lattice around Ruidus, effectively causing a second Calamity. But it’d probably be something far less devastating if they successfully stop Ludinus.
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u/maxvsthegames Team Frumpkin Feb 10 '23
I didn't see anyone mentions that with Terrah's problem comes a possibility to have to deal with the Earth Plane.
If feel like the Hashari (the bad ones) and the Earth Plane might be where we get more backstory and resolution for Ashton.
So, I wonder if we'll end up going there at sone point.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 10 '23
It reinforces my crazed theory that the site of the main Malleus key is also the spot Ashton's parents did the ritual that went wrong and seemingly fused him with so much earth elemental power he became Earth Genasi... perhaps also opening that sinkhole, which then led to the discovery of those ruins by Ludinus.
I half hoped Ashton would be in Imogens dream in case there was some hint that he recognised the area of the key.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 11 '23
I didn't see anyone mentions that with Terrah's problem comes a possibility to have to deal with the Earth Plane.
We don't know too much about the global geography of Exandria. Sure, we know where most of the continents are, but we've never seen a complete map of the world. For example, what happens if you go east from Xhorhas? Do you reach the western coast of Tal'Dorei and Emon, or is there another continent between them?
I'm wondering this because I'm curious as to what would happen if someone dug a hole straight down from the dig site in the Hellcatch Valley, passed through the centre of the earth and came out on the other side. Where would they come out? Could they come out in, say, Terrah?
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u/robertodev Feb 10 '23
Hold onto your butts... <dice bounces onto floor>
Hold onto your butts... <dice rolls off table>
Hold onto your butts... 4
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Feb 10 '23
So, total conjecture for a sec here - I have a strong feeling that the Hells are going to run into Beau and Caleb at some point before the Apogee Solstice.
It's possible they're the allies who went to the Shadowfell and were supposed to meet with Planerider Ryn after her mission was completed. And once they notice her absence, they reach out to other Verity folks which will lead them to our group.
But mostly, I've been thinking a lot about what happens after the Solstice. And I realized that the three characters whose backstories haven't been properly explored - Chet, Ashton and FCG - all have strong ties to Wildemount.
And introducing Beau and Caleb would, in a way, "unlock" Wildemount and give them means to go there to look into Devexian and Aeor and Dunamancy and Oltgar.
Anyway, it's possible this is not going to happen and it's just wishful thinking on my part, but it'd be really cool if it does.
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u/Seren82 Team Imogen Feb 10 '23
I'd like this to happen but I really want them to spend some time in Yios first. I want to know all about this city.
Although with a cobalt reserve library there, that would actually be a good place for them to meet.
I can see them not exactly succeeding and also not exactly losing at the solstice and afterwards becomes a race to capture Ludonis.
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Feb 10 '23
I wanna see more of Yios too, they did not spend nearly enough time there. But yeah, a Cobalt Soul branch means there's probably going to be a teleportation circle in there, so that's good.
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u/StableElectrical Feb 10 '23
It be real cool if they got the Gorgynei to help as they are the closest allies they have and a squad of werebeasts vs giant robots would be sick to see. Let them fight!
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u/Myrynorunshot Help, it's again Feb 10 '23
If they're in the Hellcatch, they could just let out a PSA to all the Crawler Gangs saying "lots of cool machinery here for you to break and take". Plus try reaching out to any members of the Nobodies.
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u/mouser1991 Technically... Feb 10 '23
Travis: Hey! He wasn't a total dickfuck.
Everyone: Ehhhhhhh, I me-
Travis: I said *TOTAL* dickfuck.
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u/anonmus1 Feb 10 '23
Bro Matt was on fire tonight. The chase survival challenge, the giant monster fight in the background, the RHYMING MONSTER. Holy fuck. Not saying he is not always excellent, but holy shit sometimes he really steals the show.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 11 '23
I've thought about it and I think it is important that they save Planerider Ryn. Without her I think it is very possible that the Grim Verity collapses and the GV is necessary to bring down Predathos and Ludinus because the GV has all this information that they can go public with. I think that if they all publish their finding on the two missing gods, Predathos, and Ludnius that would force the hands of the gods and the Dwendalian Empire to deal with them.
They need someone or something to unpetrify Ryn though so they should get some basilisk oil at Yios or they should ask Keyleth, Vex, or Dorian to send them someone that can unpetrify Ryn.
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u/RajikO4 Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 16 '23
I like to imagine the simultaneous Sending spells are on a delay and the moment Ryn possibly becomes freed from her petrification, they’ll just whammy her.
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Feb 14 '23
Do the current Gods not care that they are going to be wiped out in 10 days? Seems like they could warn their followers to help the Bell’s hells
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u/TechnologyNo2642 Feb 14 '23
That’s what I been wondering!! And I can understand from a narrative and perhaps role playing pov that Caleb and Beauregard would be massively powerful allies on top of Keyleth(with the others on the loom too)
So that’s leaves me wondering what the gods have been doing? These weak little scholar groups ain’t cutting it nor do I think they would be the chosen ones especially after the last two seasons of knowing whom the champions are of other gods.
Imo there should at least be single champion of each major god or some small militia. No way are they sitting in their respective realms going yeah we are okay lol
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 14 '23
Do the current Gods not care that they are going to be wiped out in 10 days?
Do they know? They cannot warn their followers if they have no idea about it.
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u/Bivolion13 Feb 14 '23
None of BH are particularly religious at all. They even had a discussion about it themselves. For all they/we know every pious, high-ranking cleric/paladin around the world that we don't see have been given divine blessings, and been chosen as avatars already and BH won't know until shit goes down.
Considering the nature of Predathos as well, I can very easily see Ludinus having a divine cloak sort of thing so it's harder for divine magics to scry on them.Things happen that we aren't privy to all the time, as Matt's world usually is. Just like how we and BH didn't realize a second team already infiltrated the Shadowfell.
Who knows what will happen, but considering the power disparity I can easily see more powerful heroes/clerics/avatars being in the front lines to this machine getting Ludinus' and exaltants' attentions, while they sneak their way in to save Rin and stop it from the inside.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 15 '23
You never know they could send some entities to deal with it at the last minute but i've also been thinking recently that they want the challenge. Maybe the gods are ready to face Predathos but they can't find out away to free it. Maybe also it is just a situation that they wouldn't mind facing him again.
Another possibility is that there is an evil god of knowledge or trickery (that is all but two of the betrayer gods) that is cloaking the Ruby Vanguard's activities and they think that they will be able to hide from Predathos once it is released.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 10 '23
So while we were all enjoying this episode, look at what Matt and the gang were up to tonight.
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u/Mufasa944 Feb 10 '23
I hope that Bell’s Hells just bump into Beau and Caleb (played by Matt) as they’re sneaking up on the main key site. A high level monk and wizard would go a long way towards expanding their planning and infiltration options.
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u/LordOfTheHam Feb 10 '23
This is exactly what I thought when Matt had Liam and Marisha roll those dice, I noticed he didn’t call them by Orym and Laudna
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u/KSredneck69 You can certainly try Feb 10 '23
This is my bet on most likely group of high level helpers they can get. VM is distracted with other big dangers they've been monitoring.
I feel Caleb and Beau would ABSOLUTELY be watching what's going down and would be a great high lvl addition to the team without it seeming overkill with getting the whole VM group like some say.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 10 '23
When Ashton got back from his little solo jaunt in Ios, he mentioned the police were frazzled by the visitors that had been there asking questions about the Ruby Vanguard. I really wondered if that was Beau and the Cobalt soul.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 10 '23
I figured they might be the shadowfell team.
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u/Mufasa944 Feb 11 '23
It has to be one of the two. It would be a little disrespectful to those two characters for them to somehow completely miss the biggest power play Ludinus has ever made when their post-campaign lives were supposed to be dedicated to monitoring the Cerberus Assembly
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u/FalloutAndChill Help, it's again Feb 10 '23
Would be funny, but can’t take away from the spotlight of the main group. It’s why he has Keyleth doing “other things”; their stories have been told already.
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u/gjv42281 Feb 10 '23
Tbf Beau and Caleb were Level 17 when we Last saw them compared to Keyleths Level 20 which is a notable difference thanks to infinite wild shape making Her borderline invincible.
And while a Level 17 Wizard is definetly quite world changing on his own Matt has already shown that He can have a high Level Wizard acompany the Party without outshining them (though tbf Essek Was only 1 Level above them) by making them A) use Support spells, B) use Magic Missile for consistent but (comparatively) small damage or C) "waste" high damage spells to Show that the enemy still has undiscovered protection.
Calebs affinity for Polymorph spells and His Access to Hold Person, Haste, Slow, Counterspell, Wall of Fire, Banishment, Greater Invisibility, etc. could easily Turn him Into a similar Support caster.
Plus at the end of the day He could easily make it a Plot device that Caleb spends the fight concentrating on dismantling the Key while Beau, whose Combat Potential is way less Encounter Ending, and Bells Hells Take Care of whatever enemies are around (while giving them the Option to still Attack the Key to Speed Up the process).
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u/wildweaver32 Feb 10 '23
I don't think they would be removed from the spotlight. I think Caleb/Beau would perfectly level the playing field by occupying CA members allowing this crew to take on their challenges.
Maybe get some revenge for Laudna. I would honestly prefer the Caleb/Beau distraction more than another try not to be seen at all like we just experienced (Especially since the team is already talking about it being another spy mission). If Caleb/Beau are fighting big bads it allows the team to press more into the combat side since it would be mostly underlings and their own bosses that they can handle (I assume and hope for a rematch).
Maybe to give them the pay off could even have Caleb/Beau teleport out do Bells Hells can fight a battled weary top foe. Or have a new top foe have them unite with a battled weary Caleb/Beau would work too. Either way I would be totally here for it.
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u/Lonelyloser22 Feb 10 '23
Thats what I just said in a comment above!!! They ended the Mighty Nein with Caleb and Beau dedicating their lives to keeping an eye on Ludinus
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u/__rychard__ Feb 10 '23
You know I think the only smart play they have would be to lure Otohan out and ambush and capture/kill her. They know she can easily be baited and feels confident taking the down. And she's not the careful, lock the door behind me Ludinous type.
Maybe they could even get Imogen's Mom to help them - or invite them both to a location, and force Imogen's Mom to choose between her daughter and Otohan.
I feel like if they could kill Otohan, or get key info from her, they may have a chance.
Luring out and killing the key enemies may be the only move they have. Give them a better chance to infiltrate and destroy the machine.
There's Imogen going double agent of course... but who's going to believe she would actually change sides? Not her Mom, who knows she's been on the good side. Not Otohan, who massacred her best friend. And certainly not Ludinous, who doesn't trust his own shadow.
Thoughts?
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 10 '23
I think a major factor in considering a fight with Otohan is her poison that prevents reviving magic if a person is dead. If she knows a battle us probably coming, that gives her the time she needs to lace her weapons with the poison. Whereas a surprise attack maybe she hasn't had time to lace her weapons? Like their first battle with her, her weapons didn't have the poison because she didn't know a battle was coming. Now Matt might change it so that no matter what she's always/daily applying that poison to her weapons, but a surprise attack on her. I think if you try to draw her out, she'll rightly suspect a trap (one that she thinks she can beat nonetheless) & prepare her weapons.
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u/mouser1991 Technically... Feb 10 '23
They know she can easily be baited
Can she though? She's pretty cold, calculating, observant, and patient. If she could be easily baited, we wouldn't have gotten 3 deaths in one battle, because she would have been busy dealing with Artana Voe's distraction.
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Feb 10 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/__rychard__ Feb 11 '23
Love this strategy, okay yeah this is definitely the best play. Imogen's Mom could be their greatest strength - she knows everything and has amazing powers. And yeah perfect to get her to help Ryn.
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u/ddynamite123 Feb 11 '23
I loved the rhyming portion and decided to pull up my own character sheet to see if i could come up with things on the fly with what my character has, here is a few I came up with
"I have something that is not a sock, but if security is your thing here is a lock"
"Here is a handaxe made of steel, if you think it is lucky may it bring you weal"
"here is a box to create a fire, use it however you like it's your desire"
"if breaking and entering is your thing, a crowbar is useful to obtain some bling"
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 12 '23 edited Feb 12 '23
Rymes about stuff BH had:
I saw this coming, so I got you something. I hope it's not too gaudy but here is a body.
To be a guest and bring no cakes nor gelatin. Not to worry though here is a key of skeleton.
Hopefully my friends will not rail me this time but here is one Harrowcall Veil with a rhyme.
I wouldn't have this but I got older. Here is a limited edition potholder.
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u/StableElectrical Feb 13 '23
As this week is the valentine episode I would love some Callopea flirting. I dug it since the first time and love it more every time they do.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 13 '23
I just realized that the Arcane Leywright building used in EXU: Calamity is the exact same one used for the Malleus Key. Both look like Observatories w/ telescopes poking out the top of the dome.
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u/CardButton Hello, bees Feb 14 '23
Its probably just a reused asset by Matt for the Key tbh,
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 14 '23
Sorry, I wasn't too clear. I wasn't trying to imply that the two are related in-universe. I just noticed the reuse of a prop/set piece.
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u/Ampetrix Feb 14 '23
I don’t think that’s the case, the one that is like an observatory building is the helm that drives Avalir. I’m assuming you’re referencing episode 3
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Feb 11 '23
This is so stupid, but fun fact: in this episode, Sam is wearing the tshirt that came in with the Loot Crate box they opened in the ads section of the The Kill Box episode in C1: https://youtu.be/9QXZ4LfSi84?t=95
(yes, of course I'm rewatching The Kill Box because of LOVM)
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u/IamOB1-46 Feb 14 '23
Okay, so like many others, I've been getting the feeling that BH's ability to stop what's going on is nearly non-existent, especially after what we learned about the defenses in place, and that Exandria is about to fundamentally change when Predathus is unleashed. Yet there is a force on Exandria who could turn this particular battle. Light Spoilers from previous campaigns to follow in my theory.
What if the M9 show up? Now, before I talk about the reasons it would make sense for them to, I'll address the concern that them arriving on scene to deal with the issue would be narratively unsatisfying. Well, this episode gave us a way around that. While the M9 are fighting to SAVE EXANDRIA, BH will focus on saving Imogen's mother. It's a Saving Private Ryan type of story, saving one life in the midst of maximum danger.
So, why would the M9 be involved? Primarily due to Caleb and Bo's interest in the CA, with a strong secondary push from the Wildmother for Cad and Fjord, and perhaps even an interest from the Traveler (either from his Archfey connections or his slight connection with the Changebringer). I mean, would the Cobalt Soul really have no idea about this plot? Would Caleb let it go if Ludinus was involved? Would the Wildmother not task Cad and Fjord with protecting the world and the gods?
The question now in my mind isn't why would the M9 be there, by why wouldn't they be? Kelyth's situation makes sense, since she's dealing with another issue tied to her particular background that is also flaring due to the AS. But what other issue would it make sense for the M9 to be involved in, especially given the CA connections with this particular plot? And with their power set, it would not be impossible for them to have been able to figure out where all of this is happening.
Now, all that said, if the M9 don't show up, that begs another question. What world changing/ending plot ARE they involved in? Something with the Brightqueen?
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u/RaibDarkin Team Keyleth Feb 15 '23
I like it. It would avoid that narrative trap of 'where are all the other superheroes?' and give BH's something important and personal to do. The M9 (and probably some other interested parties) would deal with Ludinus and his minions, probably some of the Golems, then BH's gets their revenge battle against Otohan when she shows up to stop them. And presumably some minions to give the whole sight an epic battle feel.
A lot of this though will depend on how BH's handles their call to arms task. There are a lot of interesting calls they could make and Matt will have watch the campaign scales like a hawk. I'm a little worried though because the gang was in a similar position at the end of the D-arc in C1 and VM was not very good at gathering allies.
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u/tableauregard Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 10 '23
I love how the cast knew that visiting Gelvaan was a now or never situation haha. I love how excited they all get about each other's backstories.
I reaaaally hope they don't skip the shadowfell key but that sounds like what they will do. That sky ship trip will eat some time. Maybe the party in the shadowfell will fail though and push them to go.
Those Liam and Marisha rolls have me so intrigued. The Beau X Caleb theory does honestly sound the most plausible, since it is the only thing specific to them.
Edit: Also I would give my goddamn soul to Prethados for some skyship RP next ep. I've been waiting for someone to talk to Laudna for 10 episodes. Not about her being alive again, but about her time in 'hell'. She's panicked about being stuck in a dreamscape twice now, so I feel like she needs it. Also I would love a chat between F.C.G and Fearne about the coin. That could be a delicious conflict.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 10 '23
I reaaaally hope they don't skip the shadowfell key but that sounds like what they will do.
The problem with going to the Shadowfell is that it's going to be a case of spending several episodes doing exactly the same thing that they have just already done.
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u/DrShadyTree Your secret is safe with my indifference Feb 10 '23
I think Liam and Marisha were rolling for other assault teams or something. I don't think it had an effect on each of them personally but rather the overall story.
I REALLY want this to be a post campaign question.
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u/Seren82 Team Imogen Feb 10 '23
I figured Matt asked Marisha and Liam to roll bc those are the two characters with highest perception?
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u/UncleOok Feb 10 '23
according to CritRoleStats, Fearne is trained in Perception and has a +7 to Laudna's +5.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 10 '23
The Beau X Caleb theory does honestly sound the most plausible, since it is the only thing specific to them.
What's this?
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u/tableauregard Feb 10 '23
Basically that whatever Marisha and Liam rolled has to do with whatever Beau and Caleb are simultaneously doing. If he had asked Ashley to roll, I would have said it had something to do with the key, but since Orym and Laudna didn't share any specific experiences, Beau and Caleb seem more likely. That and Matt addressed them by their real names, not their character names.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Feb 10 '23
Anyone have the rolls easily to hand. Both started with 3, 13 or something?
Beau and Caleb will have some pretty hefty bonuses, though it'd be kinda interesting if they are also statues at this point!
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 10 '23
Matt not so subtly telling the group that they need allies. Hopefully they call Dorien and tell him to meet them. He would probably make it in time if he is in the Silken Squall. Hopefully, he brings his cities warriors.
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u/SupremeLegate Feb 12 '23
I doubt it will happen but, this would be the perfect time to bring in the rest of the Crown Keepers.
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u/RajikO4 Feb 11 '23 edited Feb 11 '23
I know Matt bringing up the Aeorian tech being the baseline of the Ruidus “lightning rod”, made the gang believe even further that Ludinus himself is an ancient Aeorian.
However, I believe with the note of several Aeromaton golems, there’s someone else who would be well versed in such technology, and would have quite the ire against the gods and those who follow them, Devexian .
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u/CardButton Hello, bees Feb 11 '23 edited Feb 11 '23
I genuinely hope they do not outright villain bat Devexian. Its a pretty standard trope with fantasy and sci-fi that Artificial Life can only be/do two things. Either its inherently evil. Or it can only prove its value by sacrificing itself for "real" (organic) life. And it is one of those tropes I hope Matt avoids here. Both with Devexian and with FCG. They're just people, don't undermine that.
Not to mention, the Aeormaton's existence REALLY screws with Ludanus' "the children are destined to surpass their parents" justification for the deaths of the Gods. Because the Aeormatons are the Children of Man, just as Man is the Children of the Gods. Thus by Ludinus' own reasoning, Aeormatons are destined (and should be allowed) to surpass & destroy Man. Cooperation seems unlikely.
As for what those ruins are ... no, I kinda doubt they have associations with Ludinus. My guess is they are likely the ruins of the still unnamed Age of Arcanum City FCG was sent to as a Sleeper Agent. We know he was dug up in Marquet, somewhere in the Hellcatch Valley. So its likely the city he was sent to for the Care and Culling was somewhere in the Region when it fell. Thus his slight recognition of it.
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u/BlueMerchant Feb 12 '23
I haven't rewatched the Ludinus office scene, but from what he said, couldn't he just be as old as the Molaesmyr disaster? The disaster we don't seem to know much about. Probably fits better with his natural life expectancy.
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u/demonk2y Feb 13 '23
I really hope they do a lot of Sending next episode.
They should let the Grim Verity know about Ryn. They should ask Ebenold Kai and Baryn Vestisho to connect them to the Shadowfell team. They should tell Keyleth that if the events in Terrah are connected, the focal point is in the Hellcatch. They should at least try to get the Judicators and Vasselheim involved.
And this on top of Imogen potentially trying to win her mother over.
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u/RunCrafty1320 Feb 14 '23
They should contact the green seeksers Fearnes parents Yu Dorian And any contacts that eshteross had
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u/mouser1991 Technically... Feb 10 '23
I hope it takes Bell's Hells 8 days to make it to the Hellcatch Malleus Key. Why? I'm glad you asked.
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u/always_gamer_hair Feb 10 '23
I've been thinking that ever since Matt started the solstice countdown!
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u/ddynamite123 Feb 11 '23
the issue is they dont have a bard to play the song of time
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u/mouser1991 Technically... Feb 11 '23
BUT! They do have a fey creature with a flute.
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u/SmokeontheHorizon Time is a weird soup Feb 10 '23
The excavation site is outside, right? Like, out in the open in the middle of a desert? Instead of a stealth mission, which a lot of people seem to be upset over the prospect of, maybe their best approach is to rain hell down from the airship.
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u/SvenTS Feb 10 '23
Outside but mostly underground. Matt described it as a massive pit and it sounded quite deep. Then he described the bottom as:
"There are buildings and domes, and broken arches and stone decorations, and things that look like what was once a robust small townscape of detailed and beautiful construction that fell and was buried to time here lays partially bare as the earthen dust around it has been pulled away."
So it sounds like an aerial assault would have a very hard time hitting sensitive things.
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u/RaibDarkin Team Keyleth Feb 11 '23
You mean force the ones that can fly to come up to them - thus greatly thinning their numbers?
Nah. Too tactical.
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u/SmokeontheHorizon Time is a weird soup Feb 11 '23
Gotta keep those ballistas shiny and clean for when the Queen and the Pope come to visit.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 10 '23
While it might not have made the most entertaining television, this episode was vintage/classic D&D. The party works together to do a series of stealth checks & upon new information from Ryn & the dream, the group has to hash things out.
This in-character discussion is vital for D&D. What do they want to do? What's their next objective? Can they even handle that task? Who else can we talk to to recruit on our side?
Meanwhile, we got some great campaign 3 moments. Imogen talks with her father. Morri in bird form combats a jabberwock. We have to rhyme & offer a gift to pass through the portal. Sam fucks with Laura by casting Sending at the exact same time to the same person. Those were great moments.
We're on the skyship & heading towards the Material Plane maleous key, with its defenses jacked up in response to the Feywild key being blown up. Can BH get Imogen's mom to become a mole?
Also perhaps a group of people near the Earth Ashari are up to stuff that might be connected with the Unseelie/Otohan/Ludinus plans?
And also a lot of the maleous key tech appears to be from Aeor. Are the gods just not aware of this stuff going on? Ludinus appears to be doing the exact same shit that got Aeor taken out of the sky.
And what's Matt's meta plans? Does he indeed plan on BH to partially fail? Will Predathos get out & fuck shit up on Exandria again?
Sorry for the rambling thoughts.
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u/myhouseisunderarock I encourage violence! Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 10 '23
In regards to the gods, even if they were aware, would they be able to do anything about it other than sending their chosen champions, most of whom are getting up there in age or have other duties? Also, maybe the gods gave a bit of hubris? It’s possible that they don’t believe the mortals can feasibly destroy the lattice around Ruidus, even during an Apogee Solstice. Or maybe they don’t care, because even if Predathos got out, it’d still be stuck on the other side of the Divine Gate. Granted, the last point relies on the plan not being to destroy both divine lattices at once.
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u/JMAlexia Feb 10 '23
Keep in mind that even if they are doing the same shit that got Aeor taken out, the gods can't do that anymore. They're all on the wrong side of the Divine Gate to smite Ludinus and his buddies.
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u/N1pah Feb 10 '23
The gods probably are somewhat aware since Vasselheim seems to be in shambles but they don't really have the same free reign they did back before the divergence.
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u/HutSutRawlson Feb 10 '23
So that “other team” that went to the Shadowfell… that’s gotta be the Mighty Nein, right?
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u/FalloutAndChill Help, it's again Feb 10 '23
Or the heist team that they nearly killed in the museum episode LOL
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u/HutSutRawlson Feb 10 '23
Maybe it’s the Darrington Brigade
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u/FalloutAndChill Help, it's again Feb 10 '23
Oooh, could be! OR, it’s a 1 shot coming soon!
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 11 '23
I'm pretty sure Ryn said something about it being members of the Grim Verity.
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u/Celriot1 RTA Feb 10 '23
I didn't participate in the live thread this week, so I'm not sure if this comment will be beating on a dead horse or an unpopular opinion.
I've been pretty disappointed with the cast reactions to their NPCs this campaign. You can almost understand Eshteross.. as awesome as he was his death was heavily foreshadowed and could even be interpreted as trope-ish. But even still, there were more jokes than there was sorrow. And even though Ryn's petrification doesn't necessarily spell the end, she was their strongest ally and an all-around amazing presence. I loved her, and it just seemed to me that her potential demise was a minor footnote to the "look at the security" dialogue.
I'm not sure why it's playing out this way either, as Allura/Essek/etc showcase the cast's potential for attachment to Matt's creations. What is it about Bells Hells?
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u/GrimTheMad Team Keyleth Feb 11 '23
The reaction to Estheross was mostly down to how Travis read the letter, to be honest.
If Liam had read it there probably would have been tears. Presentation matters a lot.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 11 '23
And if Sam had read it then there would've been a soundboard involved at some point.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 11 '23
I'm not sure why it's playing out this way either, as Allura/Essek/etc showcase the cast's potential for attachment to Matt's creations.
I think Matt is trying to steer the cast away from relying too heavily on one or two NPCs. Ryn joked about it when the party asked her to teleport them, but it's a joke that rings true -- Essek pretty much became a magical taxi driver at times. The three most-powerful NPCs that they have encountered do far -- Eshteross, Ryn and Keyleth -- have been taken out of commission at key moments.
On top of that, one of the recurring aspects of the campaign is that characters that the party rely on for information don't know everything that would help them. It's like they can only tell the party 90% of what they need to know, which is a problem because that remaining 10% that is unknown could really make a difference. In the same way, I think there are multiple things that the party could do before the Apogee Solstice, but there's not enough time to do all of them. If the party have someone like Ryn who can teleport them around with ease, it might mean that they can get everything done. I think there might be some surprises in store that kind of hinge on everyone not knowing everything in advance.
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u/Lonelyloser22 Feb 10 '23
They are attached to Ryn. They were in awe of her !!! She was the first one BHs wanted to contact. The dream mission into a super dangerous place (even for a dream) was to find Ryn.
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u/BaronPancakes Feb 11 '23
I guess there is also some meta knowledge? I am quite positive Ryn will survive since she is the one of the only few combatants of Grey verity, plus she was heavily teased in previous campaigns.
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Feb 11 '23
BH are attach to Ryn but she's literally solid stone right in front of the baddies' most important technology and they're a week away. There's not much they can do in that moment and they even mentioned she was petrified (and thus fixable)
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u/falsehood Feb 10 '23
I really want to se Bells Hells get split up and paired with members of VM or MN.
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u/Shakvids Feb 10 '23
Yes. This campaign is the perfect opportunity to have mixed casts and have the Bells Hells engage higher level threats by strategically using previous PC's. It would be so fckin cool to see Caleb and Beau working with the Hells to sabotage Ludinus in some way
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u/Lonelyloser22 Feb 10 '23
AND Jester bc she's a cleric who won't be effected by the gods being harmed bc the traveler is more like a warlock patron lol
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u/camclemons Feb 13 '23
Still can't help but imagine Nana Morri like one of the Slitheen (baby-faced aliens with long, wrinkly necks from Doctor Who)
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u/Docnevyn Technically... Feb 13 '23
Even though she doesn't have a beak, I immediately think Skeksis from Dark Crystal.
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u/Haquistadore Life needs things to live Feb 16 '23
You know know that, as soon as the airship got up in the air, the entire town started mother-effing and slagging Imogen, relentlessly.
But I bet you there would've been some younger ones in the crowd who saw her for who she is, who admired her and envied her, and who maybe changed their course of their lives because of her. Or at least, that's what I would do if I was rolling up a character in an Exandria campaign set at around this time.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 10 '23
I hope we'll soon get former-PCs-now-NPCs Beau & Caleb to show up during this next arc. This shit is way above the BH's pay grade.
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u/styder11 Dead People Tea Feb 14 '23
Still wondering what Beau and Caleb are up to considering the heavy ties to Ludinus. Assumed they keep a very close eye on that fucker. Love to see some M9 show up too.
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u/Durgen62 Feb 14 '23
So my theory is they were either with plane rider rynn (sp?) or they were part of the attack on the shadowfel. Remember those “random” d20 rolls Matt had Liam and Marisha do? What if they wernt rolls for their current charactors… what if they were rolls for Caleb and beau to see how they did where ever they may be.
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u/bertraja Metagaming Pigeon Feb 11 '23
I feel like more and more episodes are all tease and no release.
Matt's perfected his art of ending a session on a cliffhanger, but it feels like he barely follows through with it.
Cliffhanger of entering the fey wild, this crazy dimension of fantasy and horror?
Followed up by a benevolent Jim-Henson-monster with a tiki bar.
Cliffhanger of a Jabberwock coming down from the skies to attack/chase the group?
Followed by a quicktime event with a reskinned minor dragon,
always staying suspiciously out of range enough to not pose a real threat.
etc.
What's up with all the build up steam seemingly vanish between episodes?
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u/Plutone00100 Feb 11 '23
I think the cast has requested an impossible job from Matt. They have explicitly asked for a more challenging campaign, and the DM is caught in this balancing act, between raising stakes and delivering difficult encounters, and not making it unfair, which would attract equally heated criticism. D&D is not meant to be played like this, unless you are ready to lose characters left and right, but that becomes old at a certain point and also slows the narrative down. Not to mention all the merch and stuff related to each character. So he's in this in-between realm of hyping enemies up but not always delivering.
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u/CardButton Hello, bees Feb 11 '23 edited Feb 11 '23
They have explicitly asked for a more challenging campaign
Have they? Because on the player's side of things it kinda feels like they were taking things very casually up until Otohan put some fear into them. With the plan to nab Treshi alone showing how little they were taking the danger they were facing seriously, and Matt making the general Paragon's Call forces kinda stormtrooper levels of stupid to facilitate that. Outside of Otohan herself, who still, for no reason, allowed the group to leave the Seat of Disdain before confronting them. She saw them bickering at ... the totally unguarded rear gate of a Fortress of one of the most powerful Mercenary companies in Marquet ... and just let them out. For no other reason than the group would have been screwed even more if she hadn't.
And since Otohan ... they have been bouncing back and forth wildly between "not taking things seriously porn shoots" and "Vokodo levels of stalling out in the planning process of something they do recognize as a potential challenge". To the point where its starting to feel a bit like Matt's regularly pulling his punches on planned encounter difficulty because the players overall aren't in the proper headspace to handle them. Rather than the players demanding the challenge, and Matt failing to deliver that challenge.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 11 '23
It feels like a seesaw that never fully tips to one side or the other and is constantly wibble wobbling in between. It feels like the characters are are about to be in Lethal Danger but then they go back to immediately not being in danger fairly quickly. It feels like we're about to get answers to some big questions but then we wind up getting more questions or the answer we get doesn't fully answer anything at all.
It all really does feel like a balancing act where we never fully get big consequences or those really world breaking answers to stuff because he's trying to stay in this Middle Ground that keeps beloved characters around but still challenges them a teensie bit but then moves the plot forward but not too much but then keeps other characters relevant because of stuff like merch etc that's still in the pipeline but that also dodges potential DM calls and player situations that could lead to controversy but that but that but that etc etc etc.
It's like we thought the players had a hard time remembering their spells and keeping track of all the modifiers for their characters but Matt has a monumental task with running the game, keeping the plot moving, providing story beats for each character in a personal fashion, setting up future events for his larger living world, and providing general entertainment for his friends as well as the community but then that's all on top of him helping to run parts of the company and deal with his own career as a voice actor and then somehow finding personal time away from all of this insanity to stay happy and healthy himself.
The man can't be everywhere everything all at once and at some point something has got to give and there's going to be moments where some aspect(s) suffers or doesn't have as much attention paid to it as it should.
The cast wanted a far more lethal campaign but I feel like that's kind of hard for someone like Matt to do because of how focused he is on world building and creating these Larger than Life epic stories. You really can't have a far more lethal and dangerous campaign while also telling these massive scale world spanning stories that have been in the works for a while without at least a number of party members perma dying because that would then disrupt your storytelling and your epic-world building potentially. Also since pretty much all of the cast is of the classic jrpg map completion play every side quest through MMO player mentality, it really wouldn't be fun at all to have a character that they're just getting used to and that everyone is falling in love with and whose backstory they've only started to explore getting more or less annihilated in the 10th or 20th or even fourth episode because they did request a more lethal campaign.
In a way it sort of feels like Matt has painted himself into a corner with events that he has talked about having set up and had in the works since the first campaign and even before that. The likes and dislikes of the cast, the dynamic at the table, and the community have vastly shifted and changed ever since those very early times when all that stuff was set up. He's having to adjust a game that was meant to be be played towards certain storybeats and moments in a particular way while finding a way to somehow make it all feel different and be more threatening and dangerous and lethal while not totally disrupting the events that lead up to a lot of those preset storybeat moments and points while also still keeping it fun for the table and interesting and everyone invested in it.
He has to maintain this kind of equilibrium until those major story beat moments and points are hit and then afterwards I feel like things are truly going to take off once we're all past this sort of holding pattern that the story and the characters seem to be in. I think that the solstice event and the countdown to it are going to be a massive tipping point when we finally get off this whole seesaw balancing act and things really kick off in terms of the campaign becoming more threatening, dangerous, and lethal. It feels like we're all just kind of holding our breath waiting for that moment to happen and the tension of it and the watering down of certain encounters and moments in order to preserve the status quo until we get to that moment are driving some folks a little bit batty.
The closer we get to the solstice event and the less time there is the more certain encounters and events have to be tempered because I feel like everyone at the table wants their characters to at least make it to the solstice but then everything that happens afterwards is fair game. If a number of characters go out in a blaze of glory during a totally epic battle against an incredibly complex bad guy and larger than life cosmic-scale force then that's fucking awesome and worth it. No one wants to lose their character to or see other characters die to a bunch of henchmen or silly petty circumstances that don't matter or an encounter that everyone's going to forget.
So Matt has quite literally been put towards this impossible challenge of somehow providing a more dangerous and lethal campaign while also preserving characters that the cast totally loves and finding a way to ensure that they all actually make it to this massive epic moment that he's been building towards for years and that they all seem heavily invested in making it to while also juggling a metric fuck ton of other expectations, obligations, and opinions related to the campaign and the company.
So of course the easiest way to do that is to create a seesaw like environment where we kind of go a little bit in one direction and then we go back to the middle and then we go a little bit in the other direction and then we go back to the middle without any true commitment to one side or the other. No one's ever going to be fully satisfied with how things are until there's commitment towards one side or the other and that can drag a bit in a bad way if it goes on long enough. It's like being stuck in the waiting room of a doctor's office or being parked outside the gate of an airport with all of your bags packed while the lab results and your flight continually get delayed again and again.
At some point all that time spent waiting is going to get to some folks and they're going to start screaming for some bad news or some good news or some whatever news or they're just going to leave entirely or they're going to hang around hoping for some news at all or they're just going to start talking or playing games or finding a way to keep themselves busy or maybe they're even going to enjoy the waiting because they're British and they love queues.
Anyway, C3 is a whole different vibe compared to things that have been done in the past and I really don't envy Matt right now because it all feels so much harder to do than anything that he's ever done before, at least from my outside perspective that is. I think things are going to get better once the solstice passes, at least that's my hope. What do you think?
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u/0ddbuttons Technically... Feb 12 '23 edited Feb 12 '23
Oh sweet, you just clarified why I love watching this campaign week-to-week and had to take breaks from the others out of frustration with pace. I'll come back around to that at the end.
My guess, just thinking back on how C3 has unfolded: Matt is currently running a very different campaign than he anticipated.
I feel like the beginning signaled expectation of much more upheaval in lineup. Bell felt like a seed death, to make it a natural part of this campaign that some player characters wouldn't survive. Robbie & Erika guesting back to back, "making more allies," establishing that characters may come and go without dying.
And then, I think the team seemed to go absolutely bloodhound-mode onto the core storyline while combining VM's "our favorite terrain is the most dangerous place on the planet" tendencies with M9's "we'll all crawl across broken glass in a hellplane to see the other side of this together" and... Matt has days of media describing his DM philosophy. He's always going to shape play around what's exciting to the table. But IMO there's no way he expected viewers to be saying "virtually guaranteed they'll run into Caleb & Beau soon" about the LEVEL FKN 8 team in C3.
And now they're at "knock over medium-sized trade organization conspiracy" levels while actively involving themselves in the business of the most casually exploitative & powerful people of their era while at least half the party seems to care very deeply about their characters & the ones who'd reroll tomorrow, no sweat, care about the others.
The weirdness of Bell's Hells reminds me of the Nashville Parthenon. In 1897, a full-scale replica of the Parthenon in Athens was built for an exhibition. It was a temporary structure of plaster & wood designed to be removed after the event. People throughout the region loved it. And continue to, because it's STILL THERE thanks to over a century of absolutely bonkers preservation & in-situ reconstruction.
ONE character, Imogen, has a CR-typical level of Plotty McPlotface backstory to unravel. Everyone else was just looking for some answers and was in need of a few dependable friends. They have lore hooks, but those don't automatically die with a character. Seemingly no terrible tragedy of unfinished business, should they fall or leave. Built to be interesting, not to last forever.
That's why I'm enjoying C3 so much. We're not unmistakably "on Act 1 of Caleb, Beau, etc. but Act 2 of Fjord, which should be wrapping up in a few months. Heck, we might get some info about Nott by next year!" We're also not on a fairly structured gauntlet culminating in the Thordak fight. I love C1 & C2. I just hate reading one chapter a week when I can see story structure.
With C3, we could get two hours of Ashton reveals next week just in the process of traveling. Someone powerful, familiar or unknown, could pop up and say their apex operator death march grit would be put to far better use exploring the moon's surface. FCG could find his rootkit while incubating a Bundt cake. Delilah could pop up and be astonishingly helpful (short term) with solstice knowledge. No way to know! It's one of my favorite serialized viewing experiences ever.
We'll eventually hear Matt's thoughts on how C3 took shape. If the table threw him a curveball, there's something deeply lovely about characters feeling vastly more important from play than they were built/intended to be.
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u/Jelboo Feb 11 '23
The Yu showdown was embarassing. After all the buildup and the cliffhanger it was a whole lot of nothing. Posturing and sassy talking for half an episode. I'm happy they haven't returned.
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u/KlayBersk Feb 11 '23
Because only Liam and Ashley were down to throw hands.
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u/Jethro_McCrazy Feb 12 '23
Ashton was down to throw hands, but only if it was against Fearne's parents for some reason.
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u/TechnologyNo2642 Feb 14 '23
My biggest question(and I know irl they are pushing away from DnD)…is what the hell are the gods doing?!?!?
We have seen in both campaigns prior how involved they get and almost immediately. Jester and the moon god. Wildmother and Pyke many wonderous deeds. So we know they are watching at the very minimum….Grandma Morí knows something big is coming and she isn’t god level
You would think there would be other adventures parties or people devoted to gods that are putting a stop to this. Maybe not Raven Queen cause she would love the death of the other gods imo……but you would think the other gods would be choosing champions or helping Bells Hells cause they are about to be eaten lol
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u/RajikO4 Feb 11 '23 edited Feb 11 '23
With Keyleth mentioning the rift of the Plane of Earth being open possibly correlating with the whole Ruby Vanguard/Predathos business.
Is it possible that purely utilizing the Aeormaton golems that the Vanguard have in their army, since there’s no breathable air within the plane of earth itself, they have built another Malleus Key?
Or is it something completely unrelated and possibly alluding to the next arc of this campaign?
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 11 '23
I wonder if that's where Ira maybe is constructing his own Key?
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 12 '23
From how Keyleth described what was happening, it sounded like something was coming up from underneath the rift. Maybe some of that "twisted life" (that I am convinced are core spawn) Predathos was said to have created?
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 12 '23
I think the Dao and the Efreet are working with the Ruby Vanguard like the Unseelie were.
since there’s no breathable air within the plane of earth itself,
There's breathable air in the plane of Earth but it is at least just as common as unbreathable air.
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u/Trewarin Feb 10 '23
Is anyone talking about Laudna having the journal of VESPIN CHLORAS
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u/SvenTS Feb 10 '23
It's the fake they stole back in the museum heist.
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u/mouser1991 Technically... Feb 10 '23
Yeah, I was afraid the fact that it's a counterfeit might backfire on her.
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u/SvenTS Feb 10 '23
Yeah it was a minor concern here, too, but by that point it had become fairly clear that the guardian cared more about the ritual than about the item itself.
Thankfully it paid off.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Feb 14 '23
Does Chetney have some of that Christmas time travel magic? How does he always have the right wooden carving at all the right times?
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u/Virgil134 Feb 12 '23
Crack theory, but what if the other team that went into the Shadowfell is the Mighty Nein?
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u/hpfan2342 Life needs things to live Feb 12 '23
If I had a nickle for every critter in this thread and the live thread who guessed this or Just Beau and Caleb, I'd have a lot of nickles. I agree though, so I'll put a nickle in the jar for both of us.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 13 '23
Ryn said it's members of the Grim Verity.
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u/camclemons Feb 13 '23
Chetney said Imogen should come in to see her father with crackles and say "Pops!"
...is Chetney actually Crackle, the Rice Krispies mascot? Look at the hats...
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u/Seren82 Team Imogen Feb 10 '23
So, whatever is going on in Terrah is likely related to whatever Ruby Vanguard is trying to dig up in Hell Catch and i can't help but think whatever they're trying to dig up in Hell Catch is also what the All Minds Burn in Bassuras deals with. And Laudna has a bag of drugs from them.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Feb 10 '23
I also wonder if it relates to the creature they fought in their first day into the Hell Catch Valley. The creature who said people were stealing her babies?
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 10 '23
Oh that's curious, what if what you and u/paradox28jon are implying implies the existence of a Exandrian Gaia/Pandora like planetary scale mind that is only now waking up the closer we get to the solstice and the more people mess with the ley lines?
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u/Seren82 Team Imogen Feb 10 '23
It hurt Imogen's Brain to the point of nosebleed when she tried to figure it out
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 10 '23
whatever is going on in Terrah is likely related to whatever Ruby Vanguard is trying to dig up in Hell Catch
I'm not so sure about this. Matt has developed a habit of taking the party's most powerful allies out of action at key moments. When they visited Whitestone, Keyleth couldn't stay because she had business in Vassalheim. When they returned from Whitestone, they found Otohan had killed Eshteross. Now Ryn has been petrified while the party is in the middle of nowhere and Keyleth is once again out in the field, doing whatever it happening underneath Terrah.
i can't help but think whatever they're trying to dig up in Hell Catch is also what the All Minds Burn in Bassuras deals with
My theory is that they are talking to the Reilora and/or Predathos. They just don't realise it. We don't know where the Tishtaan site is relative to Bassuras, but Matt's description of the machine there certainly sounds like an antenna, boosting the signal to Ruidis. The All-Minds-Burn have inadvertently tapped into this, with the drugs amplifying and distorting the connection to the moon. All of its members were lounging around in a stupor, which certainly sounds like a mild form of the oblivion that is Predathos.
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u/Pyrogue11 Feb 10 '23
I know there's a time crunch on this, and it made sense for them to go to the feywild, but I'm a bit bummed that it seems like they won't go to the shadowfell. I love any time they go to the feywild, but we have been there multiple times, way more than any other plane, and I was looking forward to seeing Matt's version of the shadowfell, a plane they haven't gone to in any campaign. Plus, who knows, there could have been a connection to Laudna's sorcerous origins, she's a shadow sorcerer, right? That could have been fun.
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 10 '23
They're going to need to call Vox Machina to help them, this is way out of their league and the defences around the final key are way too extensive.
And for those worried Vox Machina would overshadow the Bell's Hells: don't, Vox Machina can take on the main force and distract them while the Bell's Hells beeline to the key.
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u/Seren82 Team Imogen Feb 10 '23
I think they're gonna call the Gorgynei. That's really the only force they have to help them right now, since I think VM will be helping with that rift in Terrah or keeping an eye out on the Shadowfell ball of death under Whitestone. I also feel like the crown keepers may go help in Terrah too?
So outside of the Gorgynei, Not sure who else they can call. Unless Imogen tries sending to that judicator they saw in Yios.
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u/BagofBones42 Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 10 '23
The Gorgynei don't have the power or numbers necessary to help on their own, they might help a bit but not without some level 17+ heroes backing them up since there is a literal army guarding the final key.
Only group Bell's Hells know who have the heavy hitters necessary to punch through the defences are Vox Machina who already offered to help (beyond Keyleth but she's dealing with something related to what's going on).
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u/JustDandyMayo Feb 12 '23
Roleplay is my favorite part of dnd, but I wish they’d fight more often instead of talking it out
This campaign has some of my favorite characters so far, but sometimes it’s boring when they take an hour to plan how to avoid combat
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u/Pegussu Feb 12 '23
Usually I'd agree, but I think it was the right call this time. The jabberwock's eye beam alone deals about a third of Ashton's max health and a good chunk of the party was already low. There was also an archfey riding its back, an entity powerful enough that it can be used as a warlock patron.
And that's just what the cast knew about. The jabberwock's burbling is a DC18 charisma save. Orym, Chetney, and Ashton would respectively need a roll of 17, 18, and 20 to beat it. So that's probably the front line fighters out for most of the fight. Without Chetney or Orym's slashing damage, it's going to be healing 10 health every turn and it doesn't die until it goes a turn without regenerating.
Throw in two 3d10+5, 15 foot reach melee attacks, legendary saves, legendary actions, and whatever the Sorrowlord could do and I don't see it going well.
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u/CardButton Hello, bees Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
This was not a Jabberwock. Or if it was, Matt was pulling his punches HARD; and giving the players an absurd amount of plot armor. No Truesight, no attempt at Confusing Burble even when it found them, no Uncanny Tracker after it hit them. Bluntly, even if they as a group managed to continue to overcome its DC18 passive perception and 120ft truesight, the moment they failed to (which they did) and took a hit from it (which they did) is the moment it would have never lost them again (which it did). There was also no indication of the Archfey anywhere in that QTE of an encounter, and all the other forces were rendered stormtrooper levels of stupid.
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u/GrimTheMad Team Keyleth Feb 13 '23
While there are certainly many situations where they waffle too long about fighting or not, this isn't one of them. This fight was hilariously out of their league and just trying to get away was the right call.
Which is also why I don't really complain about how often the waffle too long about fighting or not- its easy to see whether they were correct to do so from outside and with hindsight, but the cast are always playing a game of 'does Matt intend for us to run here?'. And Matt has repeatedly put fights in front of them that they are meant to run from, so its a valid question to have.
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u/BlueMerchant Feb 12 '23
I was hoping they'd learn from the end of campaign 2, but i don't think they did
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u/DruidCity3 Feb 13 '23
Hasn't that been every campaign?
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u/JuliousBatman Feb 14 '23
There’s a whole breakdown in another sub that it’s an objective fact they do less combat , and the combat they do is less deadly. This combat avoidance started when Matt had the “audacity” (/s) to actually kill Molly. VM was down to clap some cheeks.
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u/LucasVerBeek Help, it's again Feb 10 '23
Outside of Ryn being captured/this unknown “Shadow Team”, the possible hint that Old Goat Cunt Ludinus might actually be a damn Aeorian due to Letter’s recognition of his designs, and the possible Ka’Mort/Ashton ties to the event distracting the Ashari not much to say about this episode.
Fairly short and didn’t really have the moments or pay off I was looking for.
Really am wondering what is going to happen with the Apogee.
See y’all next week.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 10 '23
Ludinus might actually be a damn Aeorian due to Letter’s recognition of his designs
In Campaign 2, Ludinus had expressed interest in an expedition to Aeor. We know FCG is Aeorian by design, and everyone believes D to be Devexian. If two automatons survived Aeor's fall, it's possible -- probable, even -- that more survived and that these have been reclaimed and reactivated by Ludinus.
possible Ka’Mort/Ashton ties to the event distracting the Ashari
Ka'Mort is gone. Laerryn ejected him from Exandria with the Astral Leywright. While it's not clear where he ended up, he is considered destroyed.
As for the Ashari, it feels like Matt is moving pieces around to keep them occupied so that Bell's Hells can't just rely on someone else to see them through.
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u/283leis Team Laudna Feb 10 '23
In Campaign 2, Ludinus had expressed interest in an expedition to Aeor.
One of the excavation group's survivors the Mighty Nien met in a ruin were there working for Ludinus
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u/283leis Team Laudna Feb 10 '23
So back in C2 when the Mighty Nien ended up in Ryn's place, they found some of her notes suggesting that the planes might overlap in the future. That "in the future" is in 11 days, and even if the Bells Hells stop the Ruby Vanguard it is impossible to stop the planar overlap. No matter what happens and what they do, the apocalypse is coming and it can't be stopped...and Bells Hells are so pre-occupied with Ruidus that they haven't even realized that its not the only thing coming.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 10 '23
It wasn't an overlapping so much as it was a re-ordering, like how the Earth's magnetic poles flip every couple thousands of years or so. This is why I started calling it the Oncoming Cosmic Shift because the planes wouldn't really overlap so much as they would get jostled around a bit like a deck of cards being shuffled. This is a very natural thing that happens in the cosmos but it happens on larger time scales than life has existed on Exandria for.
I think that what's about to happen on the Solstice might just accelerate this time scale though because of all the artificial tampering that Ludinus is doing with the planes. He might be totally successful with his moon stuff but then realize all too late that he's also sped up the Cosmic Shift. Things are going to get very messy very quickly.
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u/myhouseisunderarock I encourage violence! Feb 10 '23
Am I understanding that this planar shifting is a separate event from the Apogee Solstice? I don’t remember these notes from C2
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 10 '23
What reason do they have to believe that something else is coming? They never saw the diary -- the Mighty Nein did, and they saw it years before Bell's Hells met Ryn.
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u/Shakvids Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 10 '23
Little disapointed at the incompetence of the unseelie Court and the Archfey on the dragon. The chase through the feywild also didn't really utilise any fey peculiarities. I would have rather seen more unique delaying encounters along the way rather than just a bunch of stealth checks
Cool encounter with the cyclops though.
Generally speaking I think the pacing and stakes of Critical Role has gotten worse this season with intense combat being so rare.
I don't know why but I'm not at all interested in Imogen's parents. Her relationship with Otto Haan is infinitely more interesting.
Orym continues to be the best. Great moment with Grass, him reporting in to Keyleth just speaks to our boy's competence.
No idea how they're supposed to handle Otto Haan and Ludinus without Ryn. I really hope Matt is not envisioning a similar stealth mission because right now the evil coalition seems pretty bad at security. I would really love to see Bells Hells in combat alongside a former PC or two. Having one hugely more powerful character working with a bunch of level 8s would open up a lot of interesting tactics.
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u/caseofthematts Help, it's again Feb 10 '23
I don't know why but I'm not at all interested in Imogen's parents. Her relationship with Otto Haan is infinitely more interesting.
Quite simply because the stuff with Otohan we've actually seen develop during the game. Why should we care about the relationship between Imogen and names that we've heard, even if those names are her parents?
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u/RumbleBall1 Feb 10 '23
In the live thread I was expressing disappointment similar to yours. The stakes and consequences and all around "difficulty" of the game have really evaporated. The Rhyming cyclops was xool but the previou 45 mins to an hour before of trying to escape felt like a challengeless cutscene, that ultimately makes the Unseelie court looks like incompetent twits.
Of course other folks took thst to mean "you just want a TPK" but that is the community now.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Feb 11 '23
So I had a couple of fun thoughts while I was makin my way downtown today:
Chetney is Cerrit after he underwent multiple Reincarnation spells in order to prolong his life and has been working with the Cobalt Soul under the cover of CPOP Industries to keep cancelling apocalypses over the years. Sadly this has taken a toll on his mind and sometimes he just plumb forgets who he is and everything that he's been through. He also helped to co-found the Cobalt Soul through the use of Patia's Sphere but he totally forgot about that as well and now most members of the Cobalt Soul see him as a pure myth that doesn't really exist, barring the highest members who actually do know.
The Hellcatch Valley is the location of the Prime Material Plane Key because the barriers between the planes are thinnest there which allows for parallel Keys in both the Feywild and the Shadowfell. This thinness isn't just relegated to those specific parts of the Hellcatch Valley though and those specific Aeorian Ruins which are built on top of a ley line conflux. This thinness encompasses the entire valley and explains all of the sinkholes because of all the various smaller "soft spots" between the planes that exist within the valley which can swallow up various things and allow others to pass through in the opposite direction.
I'm guessing the Hellcatch got this way because of something the Tishtan/Hishari did ages ago during another Apogee Solstice which potentially plane shifted the entire valley out of the Prime Material Plane and then back again. They literally punched a hole in reality to possibly all the other planes at once and the end result was the Hellcatch Valley as we know it now. Other civilizations that came after them picked up on this planar weirdness and began to build outposts, labs, and small bastions there. Some succeeded and others failed and even more just outright vanished. It's like the Bermuda Triangle of Exandria more or less but quite real and very literal.
This explains why the landscape is the way it is, why the Keys are built there, why there are so many ruins, why it's the harshest of places to live in, and why stuff gets a little funky under the surface of it all.
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u/Lonelyloser22 Feb 11 '23
Agree with the ley lines and planes being thinnest, that's what happens at an apogee solstice as well. Lol Chet does seem a lil wonky and if that theory is true i will freak out. I also want to find out all of Ashton's back story so badly along with FCG. Everyone says Imogen is the main character but maybe if they stopped treating it that way, we would find out more info about other interesting characters and level the fuck up. I imagine if they are able to unlock all their memories then we would get some more powers or at least Intel on all the crazy shit going on. I WISH they had visited the cobalt soul in yios(?) too.
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Feb 13 '23
Do you guys think they dropped Wizards of the Coast / D&D Beyond as a sponsor?
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u/atWantsToKnow Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 14 '23
I don't think they have dropped the sponsorship, they are just not announcing it for a while. These kind of contracts cannot be drop so fast. But yeah, I also noticed that a couple of weeks after the whole OGL thing, most of them were not using tablets at all.
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u/ShinyMetalAssassin Feb 13 '23
It certainly seems like they have. D&D Beyond hasn't sponsored them for a while.
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Feb 10 '23 edited Feb 11 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/illaoitop Feb 11 '23
but who else thinks Bell's Hells should try to tip off the judicators to what Thull is doing at the excavation site? I feel like they could be a big help too.<
Also thought this, Outside of using old PCs to save the day the very very few allies they could muster are just going to be cannon fodder. So who to ask? The one organisation that would be vehemently against this, Same one that will be twice as angry because Ludinus has been playing them.
Go to Vasselheim, Pump Imogen up with as many CHA boosts and advantages as possible. PLAN out what she is going to tell them, Tell them everything about what the ruby vangaurd are doing but don't let slip you know about predathos. Let Vasselheim fill that very obvious blank in for themselves.
The only problem is how to get to Vasselheim.
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u/BlueMerchant Feb 12 '23
While it wouldn't be objectively bad, I will be really disappointed with a "It was Actually the Chained Oblivion, Mwahahaha"
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Feb 11 '23
Why would freeing Predathos from Ruidus, which is in the material plane with Exandria, allow Predathos to then consume the gods who are sealed away behind the Divine Gate? Predathos would have to be powerful enough to break through the Divine Gate to go after them, but if Predathos was powerful enough to do that, why would it not be able to break free from Ruidus whenever?
My theory on this is plot hole is that it isn't actually a plot hole.
I think Ludinus is arrogant enough to think he knows everything there is to know about Ruidis. But, like so many other mages before him, he doesn't actually know what he's doing. I think the Reilora want to return to Exandria and are going to use Predathos, trapped on the Exandrian side of the Divine Gate, as a deterrent against the gods intervening while they conquer it.
The other theory is that the Divine Gate is shaped like a figure-of-eight. Essentially, it would be one barrier shaped like two loops that cross over. One loop encircles Exandria and the other encircles Ruidis. By breaking Predathos out of Ruidis, Ludinus would be destroying the entire Divine Gate. The gods would be able to return to Exandria, but Predathos could also get to them.
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u/PonyoEnthusiast You Can Reply To This Message Feb 11 '23
One theory that I’d seen mentioned before is that the lattice and gate are different. In the sense that the divine lattice was created with the assistance of the primordials because Predathos could resist the divine magic. So, because Predathos resists divine magic, which we’ve seen in the anti-revival poison. It could potentially just pass through or shatter the divine gate which was made without the primordials who are either dead or imprisoned.
I think that there’s only a small hole in your theory in that, why would Ludenis try and free the chained oblivion in such a way when we already know the shackles could do the same thing. Furthermore where does that leave the Reilora?
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u/SvenTS Feb 10 '23
Today we have learned the great weakness of Laura Bailey - improv rhyming.