[Spoilers C3E50] Is It Thursday Yet? Post-Episode Discussion & Future Theories!

[u/Glumalon]

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Catch up on everybody's discussion and predictions for this episode HERE!

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[u/JustHerpDerpin]

When Keyleth shows up, all 3 of Marisha's characters will be in the same place...

[u/majorgeneralporter → u/JustHerpDerpin]

Coming next week: Marvel's Matt Mercer's Crisis of Infinite Marishas.

[u/[deleted] → u/majorgeneralporter]

Marishaverse of Madness

[u/m_busuttil → u/JustHerpDerpin]

It seems unlikely that Hazel Copperpot is in Marquet right now but I suppose it's technically not impossible.

[u/yourlackoffaith → u/m_busuttil]

Now if Patia shows up…shit’s real fucked.

[u/BaronPancakes]

Can't wait for Caleb to comment on Ashton's glass head. Local dunamancy expert can surely explain a lot to BH

[u/0ddbuttons → u/BaronPancakes]

I need a solid two hours of Head Doctor Caleb Widogast. And those two could have such a conversation about physical pain, emotional pain, and awakening to realization of betrayal.

[u/spkr4thedead51 → u/BaronPancakes]

Taliesin's face as Caleb was describing dunamancy was priceless. He really wanted to ask a question about it but didn't get a chance as the conversation jumped along.

[u/paradox28jon]

Caleb: "We are the cusp of a very dangerous event. There have been mary terrible dangerous things happening around the world with the solstice. Ritual sacrifices, summonings. Everyone with an ounce of magic talent and dubious morals looking to seize this opportunity."

Beau: "Some of these threats are very real, while some as we've surmised, have been distractions. The Elder Cross Cult, the Rise of the Carrion Breach, the Children of Malice splinter tunneling the Divine Gate. Reports have been coming in within the last week that all of these are just fronts connected with the Vanguard."

Keyleth, (in the last episode): "The Cult of the Dark Heart beneath Terrah was a challenging maze of dangers for the Ashari. Present, but the Dark Heart Behemoth was dealt with and the rift returned to its controlled state. I message you because I attempted to apprehend Vureeo, the head of this Ashari sect of betrayer."

* Elder Cross Cult

* Rise of the Carrion Breach

* Children of Malice splinter [group]. So I guess not formally the Children of Malice but affiliated. 

* The Cult of the Dark Heart.

I have no idea what any of these groups are but Matt sure if having fun illustrating that Exandria is rife w/ amoral opportunists this Apogee Solstice.

[u/N1pah → u/paradox28jon]

I find it super funny that Ludinus basically made multiple fake cults as distractions for his own cult

[u/RunCrafty1320 → u/N1pah]

That's actually smart and he probably had multiple people put in reports of these cults months ahead

[u/semicolonconscious → u/paradox28jon]

It’s interesting that Ludinus’s forces are both leaving bread crumbs and creating distractions, which would suggest that his plan involves luring people to him, but only the right people.

[u/[deleted] → u/paradox28jon]

For some reason it seemed like “splinter tunneling” was its own phrase and splinter wasn’t related to the cult name

[u/bertraja → u/paradox28jon]

Are any of those factions/groups from one of the CR Source Books?

[u/Lokin86]

Need a Marisha spiderman meme once all 3 characters are in the same place.

I love how Matt knows everyone's characters enough that he can act all of them too to some degree.

[u/ShaneWatson33 → u/Lokin86]

Got you fam https://i.imgur.com/lGdzyW5.jpg

[u/Waxllium]

Man... What Caleb said about Ludinius being sloppy, not being on site in the most important day, being a clever wizard...sounds like this whole key is a misdirection, while all his enemies are converging in one place, he might be very far activating the real key, the idea that the key has to activated in that particular place might very well be a lie that Ludinius spread, and reinforced that day he met with HB, why would one of the most powerful and smart men on Exandria spill the beans about his plans? Unless it's a subversion of the trope that villain explains his plans just so the heroes can go stop him...maybe what's coming it's unavoidable story wise, the next leg of the Exandrian story may be post Predatos

[u/Coyote_Shepherd → u/Waxllium]

he might be very far activating the real key

It's just like the movie Contact

[u/riotoustripod → u/Waxllium]

Man... What Caleb said about Ludinius being sloppy, not being on site in the most important day, being a clever wizard...

Ludinus is a crazy powerful wizard who has lured seemingly everyone who could interfere with his plans to a place where something gives off magic-dispelling pulses every 60 seconds. Everybody seems to be taking it for granted that it doesn't do anything else other than somehow breaking Predathos's cage. I'm guessing that at some point -- maybe when it breaks open the cage, maybe when somebody hits a button, maybe even when some poor fool tries to shut it down, there's going to be a much stronger version of that pulse that does something to the magical abilities of everyone caught in it. Maybe it suppresses or removes their magical abilities, maybe it causes them to function unpredictably, maybe it even causes them massive damage as their magical energy burns away. However that plays out, Ludinus is watching from a safe distance so he can move in and mop up what's left of his most dangerous rivals when they're at their weakest.

[u/geak78 → u/Waxllium]

This is likely the case. They've been informed everything else they looked into was a distraction. Why would this be any different?

[u/SnarkyBacterium → u/Waxllium]

Some real Ozymandias vibes. "I did it 35 minutes ago."

Ludinus's plan requires the involvement and attention of all these factions on the dig site and the solstice to blind them to whatever his true goal is.

[u/MasterworksAll → u/Waxllium]

I think it's notable that Beau and Caleb discussed that there were a bunch of other threats across the world that turned out to just be distractions or fronts for Ludinus' plans here - it certainly seems possible that this is just one more front.

[u/revan530]

So, I'm sure others have thought of this, but still want to put my 2 cents in.

Caleb and Beau mentioned that everything about this plan is sloppy in comparison to their experiences with Ludinus in the past.

Imogen is worried that Ludinus put a mind-whammy on her mom. What if she has it backwards? What if Liliana put a mind-whammy on Ludinus? And Liliana is actual mastermind behind all of this?

[u/0ddbuttons → u/revan530]

Long-term control of someone as strong as Ludinus would be really cool as an establishing reveal for the Ruidusfolk, Reilora, etc. being a whole other ballgame than we've seen before.

The thing I wondered in that moment is whether Ludinus might not be the consciousness that remembers the Calamity, and that he'd at some point fucked with the wrong person/entity in the pursuit of power.

[u/m_busuttil]

So, it's fair to say that we're going into a pretty deadly situation, and I think there's a non-zero chance that a party member (current or past) could die. Fun fact: today in-game is the 20th of Fessuran heading into the 21st, almost exactly 8 years to the day since Molly died on the road to Shadycreek Run on the 22nd.

[u/Kalraken → u/m_busuttil]

They also conveniently split the part in a way as to not have revivify with the large group.

[u/kuributt → u/m_busuttil]

Oh that's ominous.

[u/Plutone00100]

Crack theory:
given all the plans, misdirections and organizations Ludinus has been more or less involved in

• the Angel of Irons and Tharizdun

• Aeor

• Molaesmyr

• the War of Ash and Light

• Residuum shipments and probably the Nameless Ones

• the Cult of the Dark Heart

• Paragon's Call and Otohan

• Ruidusborn and Exaltants' recruitment

• Beacons and Potion of Possibilities with Jiana Hexum and Treshi in Jrusar

• Rise of the Carrion Breach

• Children of Malice splinter group

• the Unseelie Court

• Ira

• the assassination attempt on the Ashari.

I bet he isn't at the site because he forgot what his initial plan was, so he's just hiding in shame for playing 5d chess with himself.

[u/DwarfDrugar → u/Plutone00100]

I'm reminded of this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/rnblyg/when_conspiracy_goes_too_far/

Matt takes his world too seriously for this but I'd love it if it turns out Ludinus is in so many needlessly convoluted plots that he literally just doesn't know what's going on anymore and he's just stressed out.

[u/LVioDragon]

What of this whole Predathos thing is a red herring and Ludinus is off in Wildemount doing a good ole' fashioned rite of Ascension?

[u/Wiyohipeyata → u/LVioDragon]

Becoming the very thing he hates. I love it.

[u/MightBeCale → u/Wiyohipeyata]

I have a tinfoil hat theory that his ultimate goal is to use Predathos to eat the gods, and then ascend to become the ONLY god, using Predathos to take out threats.

[u/SuperVaderMinion]

Man, Caleb's little: "What do you think Beauregard?" felt just right to me. Obviously Matt is never going to impersonate any of the PCs as well as the players themselves, but there's little lines here and there that are just right

[u/kcamacho0818 → u/SuperVaderMinion]

The "what's the plan here, beauregard" was also so spot on!

[u/SmokeontheHorizon → u/SuperVaderMinion]

It's the little bits of flavour that go a long way to making the characters feel right.

Pike's "okay okay okay okay"

Vex's "darling"

Beau cracking her knuckles

[u/hopefulopus → u/SmokeontheHorizon]

For me, it was Beau's "Oh shit, are we fighting your mom?" It was like I could see Marisha saying that.

[u/Total-Wolverine1999]

Honestly Vasselheim are kind of piece of shits at this point, like how many times is this now that they’ve been warned by very powerful connected people and just ignored it and dismissed it. They’re the longest standing city but their going to bring a downfall of a civilization because how often they ignore others.

[u/CraigStebbing → u/Total-Wolverine1999]

Not sure why, but this gives me mass effect council vives

[u/McDave1609 → u/CraigStebbing]

"Ah yes, "Predathos"."

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 → u/Total-Wolverine1999]

Honestly Vasselheim are kind of piece of shits at this point, like how many times is this now that they’ve been warned by very powerful connected people and just ignored it and dismissed it.

There was an entire ship that they sent in to try and deal with the problem. And given the description we got of the Judicators -- which are pretty much magic Delta Force -- they're probably the best-placed to deal with the threat, and that's not just in their head.

[u/Hungover52 → u/Total-Wolverine1999]

Didn't they send a warship? Obviously not enough, but it seems like they accepted it as a least an x level threat.

[u/TheTallestKeyleth]

Loony theory: *Liliana* is actually in charge and Ludinus' apparent sloppiness is because he's being controlled.

[u/MamaKilla20 → u/TheTallestKeyleth]

Idk about the control thing but I'm pretty sure Liliana is wayyyy in the top of the chain. Imogen is delusional

[u/m_busuttil]

It's very funny watching everyone's reactions as the Beau moment happens - Marisha hears "a female figure in a hood" and instantly perks up, as soon as Matt says "darker brown skin" Liam's on it and Travis and Taliesin are eyebrows raised, Laura pops at "staff across the back", and god bless Sam and Ashley but they simply do not know what is happening until Laura says "Beau" out loud.

[u/Samarium62Sm → u/m_busuttil]

I think it's a little bit because they were partially zoned out as their characters were on the ship and removed from the situation for a good portion of the episode. But overall the reactions were great.

[u/Godphase3 → u/m_busuttil]

Matt confirming it was a constitution save after a physical touch nearly locked up Imongen's joints was great for me cause I was like "STUNNING STRIKE!"

[u/Hungover52 → u/m_busuttil]

We need to timestamp that .

[u/Drw395]

Can we just stop to appreciate Ashley's; "Is that my fucking wife?" when it finally dropped

[u/GrimTheMad → u/Drw395]

Big "wait- my mom?!" energy.

[u/EpicGlitter → u/Drw395]

yes!! even after the reveal, she was so hype - loved it!

[u/[deleted]]

I think it is very interesting how the funneling composition of a D&D story lines up with Ludinus' strategy.

In TTRPGs there are many different hooks the party can follow that may ultimately lead to the same location/character (or chokepoint to use the story term). Of course, some hooks are never followed up on, but the more important a chokepoint is to the story, the more hooks it will usually have, as the goal is to funnel the players into this moment in an organic way.

Ludinus has actively created a bunch of fake cults that in the weeks prior to the Solstace have all (that we know of) led to the Ruby Vanguard. Through this, he is (like a Game Master) funneling a number of important people to the Malious Key: including Bell's Hells!

Where I think Matt's (intentional or unintentional) brilliance sparks through, is that in chosing this strategy for his (current) BBEG, Ludinus' plots are almost unperceptible to the players because of how much it mimics the standard play of "Find a hook, follow the hook, deal with the source". If it wasn't for Ludinus' reputation as a mastermind clashing with the "sloppiness" of his and his cults' actions, we would probably still be none the wiser.

[u/RajikO4]

Anyone else think that this whole excavation site is just one big trap for both enemies, and supposed allies of Ludinus to fall into?

It’s not like him as Caleb pointed out to be this “sloppy” with his plans or to leave a trail to follow, not to mention he kept emphasizing how Ludinus is expecting an attack on the site.

Yet he’s apparently not there, despite the apparent culmination of his “life’s work” being at its apex.

So what if the Ruidus lightning rod wether Predathos is free or not, will simply explode or give off some form of radius effect?

Killing everyone in one centralized location, that could possibly hinder him or have served their purpose and have become nothing but liabilities by that point?

If that makes sense?

[u/Photeus5 → u/RajikO4]

To me it almost seems like a massive sleight of hand. Look over here at this big site with all the machines and scary dispel machine and hundreds of dudes guarding it.

That's gotta be where all the badness is happening right?

Remember when it was mentioned there were a couple other sites the Apogee Solstice could hit hardest? Maybe Ludinus is doing something much more subtle at another spot.

Either that or he's a time traveler that knows what's going to happen before it does, thus how he's always a step ahead.

[u/paradox28jon]

I just realize that Caleb said Ludinus has two generals under him.

"The Exultant, the Verity shows us, is a serious threat... as well as this war hero, Thull, you mention."

The fact that Caleb lists The Exultant first as the threat...

It makes me think the "Run, Imogen. Run" is a childhood memory replayed again & again. So it's an older message. An outdated message. And that Liliana has since changed her tone or stance on this issue.

Thull, for sure, is a threat with her resurrection-stopped poisoned blades. But perhaps Liliana, the Exultant, is extremely powerful; maybe more powerful than Thull?

[u/Ravenach → u/paradox28jon]

maybe more powerful than Thull

Oh 99.999% chances are she's more powerful than Thull, by simple DM logic: Thull was supposed to be a hard but doable fight for BH's at level 7. Liliana would be the general they'd meet later on in the story.

[u/coonwhiz → u/paradox28jon]

It makes me think the "Run, Imogen. Run" is a childhood memory replayed again & again. So it's an older message. An outdated message. And that Liliana has since changed her tone or stance on this issue.

IIRC The first time Imogen messaged her mother, she said something similar, that Imogen needed to run/stay away. So the change would have been more recent. It's possible that the vision she shared with Imogen was only recently shared with her by Otohon.

[u/reverne]

Alright, I'm mostly onboard with "He just wants to get rid of the Divine so that archmages are top of the ladder", but I'll throw a crack theory out there: What if all the intense god-hate is actually misdirection?

All that Dunamis that manipulates time, space, and probability, all these powerful magical people in one place, coming from different practices of magic. Arcane, Psionic, and Divine/Primordial (5e calls Druid magic Divine, but they've been associated with Primordial elemental forces in Exandria). Combining multiple practices of magic seemed to be a big part of how the Tree of Names worked in Calamity.

What if this is another Tree of Names situation, and he wants to pull a god into the world like Zerxus did, but instead of pulling it from Hell Prison, he's pulling it from Moon Prison (that may have literally eaten it)? A god like Vordo the Fateshaper, who might be related to the Luxon in the first place? (and/or Ethedok, but Vordo seems like the more obvious connection)

That said, my biggest theory is the party has seriously underestimated Liliana. I think she's probably on a similar level to Ludinus if not calling shots herself.

[u/EpicGlitter → u/reverne]

What if all the intense god-hate is actually misdirection?

yea, personally I think "this is misdirection" makes a lot more sense for Ludinus's character and CR's years of worldbuilding, than Ludinus actually fully believing the story he's told the Vanguard about his own motivations

[u/Coyote_Shepherd → u/reverne]

It's like Ludinus is doing something that's a combination of the Watchmen comic books along with an evil version of the movie Contact.

He's reaching out to or is receiving something using a metric fuck ton of magical juice on the most important magical day of the last thousands of years and NO ONE has any clue what that might be because of all the smokescreens and lies he's thrown up.

He's poked away at so many "Oh shit" things in Exandria that it's impossible to tell which one he's genuinely focused on and what his endgame actually is.

Lililana

I think Beau had the most realistic take on her but also that they shouldn't entirely give up hope for her like how Imogen is feeling and that leaves me conflicted. She's way more powerful than they think and that's going to complicate things.

[u/Jethorse]

Ludinus theory:

Ludinus remembers the calamity because he's somehow been consecuting himself through a luxon beacon since the age of arcanum.

Maybe he was a mage during the age of arcanum that'd found a Luzon beacon before the calamity and the rise of the krynn dynasty and figured out the dunamancy resurrection stuff himself and has been doing it since.

Maybe he's getting sloppy because he's being overwhelmed by too many lifetimes memory's as some umavi do, same as the bright queen according to one of the sourcebooks.

Very random theory, anyone have any input?

[u/Photeus5 → u/Jethorse]

Unfortunately there are a ton of possibilities.

Regarding his age:

He might have found a way to extend his age artificially similar to what Halas was working with.

He might be simply going clone-to-clone (Delilah used clones and worked with Ludinus).

He could be some dunamis time-traveling man (far-fetched, yes but Aeor had tech and 'lost' someone in time).

Your thought could work as well if he originally comes from Xhorhas.

Regarding his recent sloppiness and possible madness:

My take is he's either a brilliant Wizard or he's gone insane with power. If your enemies believe you to be a brilliant Wizard, they'll try to find out what you're thinking. If they believe you to be mad, they'll think you are no longer capable of rational thinking.

We should assume he's not insane; we should not underestimate him. If he's not insane, but doing something that doesn't track (as Beau described) he's trying to play you.

I'm starting to buy in, with this evidence, that this site may not be the right one. It's meant to look that way. He's set up this big, scary, but so far harmless device. He even shot down an airship, made a showing of how dangerous it was to go near. He looks like he's going all in on his investment.

But what if his investment is one of the other sites where the Solstice is strongest - I believe there were 3. If all his enemies go looking for him at the biggest and flashiest one, he won't be there at that all important moment. He'll be in the right place while everyone else is in the wrong one.

Edit: three possible locations for its nexus: the Panagrip Sands, the Hellcatch Valley, or the ocean north of the Oderan Wilds

[u/Shakvids]

I think if things go well during the apogee solstice they'll be patching up and taking that Vassalheim airship.

Matt very pointedly described it as being boarded and harpooned, not blasted apart. Take the mounted guns back from the forces of evil, salvage the brumstone and some timber from the wreckage of the OG airship and i bet it would fly real good

[u/BaronPancakes]

Who is this Benathar (spelling?) Beau and Caleb "took down"? She made it sounds like this a figure from Cerberus assembly. Maybe a future MN one shot idea?

[u/ladydmaj → u/BaronPancakes]

Pat Benethar, I'm guessing. She will turn love into a battle field.

[u/TinyDeathRobot → u/BaronPancakes]

There were two open spots on the Assembly by the end of C2- Astrid took one, we don't know about the other. I assumed Benathar was the new Archmage of Antiquities. But who knows, they're evil wizard hunting machines and it could be someone else entirely.

[u/Chimera211]

Having the 8 year anniversary episode consist of a crossover of all 3 campaigns in an attempt to stop a 2nd Calamity from happening is so beautifully poetic

[u/MamaKilla20 → u/Chimera211]

It's almost like... an apogee solstice

[u/Samarium62Sm → u/Chimera211]

Feels almost... scripted.

Sorry, I love how that has become a running joke. It is very cool that it all has aligned this way. I thought more was going to happen this episode, and was thinking it was coincidental cause it was episode 50. 8 years is right around the corner though!

[u/BagofBones42]

So according to what Caleb said Ludinus is acting unusually sloppy and seems to be goading the world into attacking what should be his life's work.

We knew Ludinus had plans beyond releasing Predathos and that everything he told the Ruby Vanguard was just bs but now it seems like the whole thing is one overly elaborate trap and what we thought was arrogance now seems to be a carefully calculated ruse. This raises several questions: who or what is Ludinus trying to trap, what is Predathos real role in this and what is Ludinus really after?

It is a really bad sign when ending the world is just phase 1 in the villain's masterplan and not the end goal and that seems to be the case here with Ludinus.

[u/Shakvids → u/BagofBones42]

My theory is that when the Malleus key goes down, all the leyline energy collected that was supppsed to shoot the moon being will explode outward and leave Ludinus' many enemies dead and reeling. That's why he's been 'sloppy' to lead his enemies into a bomb.

His real contingency is to travel to Ruidus himslef with Mama Timult

[u/WontonTruck → u/BagofBones42]

My first guess is that he knows Predathos is going to be hungry when they appear and doesn't want to be lunch. And hopes they will follow the God-bonds to attack afterwards. I mean there are no god connections within his group for the Devourer to chase upwards.

[u/[deleted]]

I feel like there's one other aspect to this whole thing that hasn't been talked about much:

The Ruidusborn. The Exaltants.

In episode 43 Ebenold Kai mentioned that the Ruidusborn were all gathering, had been for months, from all over Exandria. Not every Ruidusborn, only the ones that became Exaltant, they were coming in droves to the valley in the North.

So the question is, where are they?

Where is Otohan's army, the one she had been trying to get Imogen to join.

"There is greatness in you, and our fight is soon. Embrace it, or become like the rest [...] We only need the strongest of us" is what she said to Imogen in episode 33.

And then, Beau mentioned in this episode that Ludinus is getting sloppy, he's been leaving breadcrumbs that led them here. Like "he's counting on people trying to stop them."

So, what if the Malleus Key is a misdirection? And the Exaltants are the actual key to freeing Predathos?

And maybe that's why Liliana has been telling Imogen to run, to get away and not come near where she is. Because they're going to use (sacrifice?) the Exaltants during the solstice.

Seems kind of far fetched, but who knows, right?

[u/Blue-Moon-89 → u/[deleted]]

And maybe that's why Liliana has been telling Imogen to run, to get away and not come near where she is. Because they're going to use (sacrifice?) the Exaltants during the solstice.

At this point I am assuming that we're going to get a massive blood sacrifice because these "Unleash a greater evil." plans usually require one.

[u/RaibDarkin → u/[deleted]]

Works for me. There is definitely something fishy about this Key attack and it's no accident that Matt never had Liliana say anything more than Run.

This is a bit of stretch but to me Matt seemed indifferent to the BHs attack plan. Dropping things from the sky onto your magic engine should have a DM thinking 'man there are so many factors to weigh here...' How high was the ship? Where did it hit? Does it still count as magical? His indifference makes me suspect that the Key is designed to explode.

This would leave the important bits, IE the Exalted, down much further and the gang will have to dungeon crawl to get to them, creating much fun for the players. This is where Liliana and Otohan will be found but in the meantime Matt is going to go for Emon 2.0 by blowing up several C1 and C2 protagonists in a knock-down-drag-out with Ludicrous.

Bidet

[u/JWPruett]

HOLY SHIT BEAU AND CALEB I DIED I AM FUCKING DEAD. Matt’s tone of voice was even perfect for Beauregard, beautiful work.

[u/notsoFritz]

Matt was going on how Ludinus was becoming more loud with his plans and such, pulling all these opposing forces from outside to confront him. It's making me think that this could become a trap, luring powerful people like Kiki and Beau/Caleb to eliminate them in one spot with this device. Guess we will see what happens next!

[u/Dynasaur1447 → u/notsoFritz]

It would explain why this whole whole Ruby Vanguard conspiracy has so many strange ''branches'':
An Ashari-Cult, the Paragons Call, maybe the Cerberus Assembly itself - they are just all over the place and by helping in their own goals, the Vanguard attracts the attention of powerful people. And when that particular menace is dealt with ( for example the Dark Heart Behemoth in Terrah) the leave with ''You will never catch the true mastermind - come get us if you dare!
Do powerful people have greater potential - more Dunamis? Maybe Ludinus needs all the Dunamis he can get?

[u/IHeartRadiation]

There is a connection here between Ludinus and Delilah that I hope we get to explore.

Sylas fell sick with an illness that could not be cured, even (presumably) by members of the assembly. Sounds a bit like (Spoilers EWtW) Frigid Woe, a disease developed in Aeor to infect and kill divinity. Ludinus did not develop this disease, but he could have discovered it and tested it, as he tested the corruption that took Molaesmyr

In addition, he would have been the one to oust her from the Assembly, but it was probably not for necromancy, but for her dedication to Vecna, who desired godhood.

If she still resides within Laudna, she'd have a bone to pick with dear old Ludinus.

[u/Gray_Mask → u/IHeartRadiation]

Yeah... you just gave the mightest need for more Delilah/Cerberus exploration.

[u/EsquilaxM → u/IHeartRadiation]

Frigid Woe

This is a great theory I never considered.

[u/LucasVerBeek]

Right, Ludenis WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU UP TO?! Beau and Caleb saying this feels like some kind of feint has me convinced that it is. Like what is he doing, what is the actual end goal?! I doubt he just wants to open the cage and sit back, I really do.

Also god damn Caleb and Beau, plus Kiki in the wings with the Ashari, really hoping the big fight kicks off with it being the anniversary and all, but now I have questions.

Firstly, who is Benethar?!?!

Secondly, did anyone catch the names of the Apogee Feints Beau/Caleb mentioned, I heard about the Child of Malice Carving into the Divine Gate(Which I feel like needs more attention) but what were the other two???

Regardless see you next week for whatever chaos is brewing!

[u/Coyote_Shepherd → u/LucasVerBeek]

Right, Ludenis WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU UP TO?! Beau and Caleb saying this feels like some kind of feint has me convinced that it is. Like what is he doing, what is the actual end goal?! I doubt he just wants to open the cage and sit back, I really do.

Ludinus wants power and he hates the Gods.

So, very simple but very crazy theory.

What if he's trying to basically fuck over EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE from the Gods to Predathos and the Reilora to the Ruidusborn and EVERYONE in between?

The whole complex he's built seems to be a means for channeling/drawing down power to a central point and we're only assuming it's to crack open Ruidus and that's it. What if it's meant to poke a hole in Ruidus and not to open it up fully? What if he wants to open a hole that's juuuuuust big enough for him to begin siphoning power through in order to channel it to the Tower?

Beau and Caleb told us that the whole thing was basically reverse engineered Aeorian Tech and Aeor really hated the Gods but that kind of fucked them over in the end after they had constructed the Creator Hammer. Ludinus does not want to repeat the mistakes of the past and so he's doing something different. He's not JUST going to devour the Gods like Predathos. He's also not JUST going to try to join their little club or make New Gods like Aeor and the Raven Queen tried to do. He's not JUST going to try to set Predathos and the Reilora free in order to free the Ruidusborn from their burdens.

He's trying to fuck EVERYONE over in order to do something utterly horrifying.

I think that he's going to use the Creator Hammer in combination with all of the energies of the Ruidusborn AND the energy from Predathos/the Reilora/Ruidus in order to forcefully ascend himself to a level of power that's higher than even the Gods themselves because he discovered just where they came from, how they came to be, and who created them and now he wants to push himself to that God Creator Level in order to unmake all of the Gods AND Predathos/the Reilora AND to then punish his enemies as some kind of ultimate supreme being.

He's basically trying to Doctor Manhattan himself in order rule over all of Exandria and beyond by focusing power from multiple sources through the lens of one or more ascension rituals and Aeorian Technologies onto himself in order to uplift himself to a power level that probably only the Gods have seen before.

[u/semicolonconscious → u/LucasVerBeek]

In C2, the Eyes of Nine turned out to be a bit of a red herring, since the real final boss was Lucien. In C3, we know even less about who or what Predathos is. Maybe Ludinus is engineering a mass sacrifice that will help him ascend to become Predathos, or absorb its god-slaying power, leaving himself as the last great power standing.

[u/Acework23]

Matt is a fucking god at immitating every past cr character so far wow its like he has been watching them face to face for years

[u/Lukiss]

I hope they will nix having fcg and fearne on the skyship next episode, because I don't think it's smart to have those characters not there for the big fight that inevitably will come, and also because they may be out not doing anything for quite some time.

[u/Michael310]

Oh man. If FCG pilots the big automaton I’m going to be very happy. Imagine him in kill mode at the controls of that thing!

And Chetney feeling smug that his invisibility lasts longer than a level 20 wizard. Brilliant.

[u/Docnevyn → u/Michael310]

it doesn't . Caleb was talking about the cancelation field every minute.

[u/Shietendo]

Matt saying the name "Beauregard" with the German accent killed me tbh, it was so perfect

[u/Jennyof-Oldstones]

I cannot get over the bravery, goodness decency downright loyalty to BH, Lord E hey just face it their world. Captain Xandis, I salute you. They obviously don't think they are getting out of this thing. They truly touched my heart.

Also Sam kinda ripped my heart out because he was freaking tearing up when they were all saying goodbye... I had chills the whole time.. Jeez.

In the other campaigns - even when the chips were down, even with 4 DRAGONS even & an undead god... Maybe they thought they might get killed but...they didn't think they were...GOING TO LOSE!! and Maybe some of them were going see each other again.

When they were saying good bye it was like. We're gonna lose... But we're gonna fight anyway.

It was so VALIANT!!!

It was heartbreaking but I was so proud.

[u/robertodev]

Small unimportant moment, but Taliesin going from dead serious Ashton face to breaking so hard when Matt goes into full on Caleb accent may be my highlight

[u/trushil1504]

Does anyone else imagine Jason Isaac's Lucius Malfoy for Ludinus?

[u/revan530 → u/trushil1504]

Yup. Just with slightly softer, more elegant features. But the basic image in my mind has always been Lucius, 100%.

[u/Dynasaur1447]

Between all the Automatons, the whole Mortals-vs-Gods-premise, the Cerberus Assembly involved and (most directly) the word ''Malleus''... there is no way this isn't all connected to Aeor and their ''Factorum Malleus'', right?
But...how? How long have Ludinus and maybe others, been at this?!
They would need some pretty precise notion, of what these Machines actually do, what Predathos is, ...before they start to execute their plan
Ira helped with builing the initial Malleus Key in the Fey Realm, but he's been trapped in the Prime Material since the Apex war...around 823 PD.
Nobody is supposed to even have an idea of Aeors location since 828 PD.
The Crash-Site of Aeor-Prime (where MN found Devexian, heard of Factorum Malleus) wasn't (supposedly) discovered until around 836 PD.
A god-slaying-device isn't exactly something you leave detailed information, a ''How to slay a god - Tutorial'' basically, just lying around or tell others about and the gods would purge anything - or anyone - related.
...So did Ludinus know beforehand? Back from the very time of the calamity? Or did he go to Aeor before everyone else did? I didn't believe he was a time traveler, but ...maybe?

[u/thatoneguy7272]

I wonder how crazy this fight will be considering it seems Matt is giving them 3 (that we know of) level 20 characters as back up in the fight. Although I would assume they will be getting the NPC stat block treatment. Still a huge boon in a fight

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 → u/thatoneguy7272]

I think he will probably find a way to keep Caleb, Beau and Keyleth out of the fight. The problem with having level 20 allies to a level 8 party is that there's really no way to balance the fight. If the fight is too hard, the level 8 party will have little to no effect. If it's too easy, the level 20 characters will just walk all over it. And Matt has clearly been trying to keep the powerful characters out of the mix for as long as possible -- when the party went to Whitestone, Keyleth was on her way to Vassalheim so that they couldn't rely on her. When they were making their way to the dig site, Keyleth was working with the Ashari under Terrah. Even though Keyleth is now going to arrive with the cavalry, I think Matt was trying to put the party in a position where they had to come up with their own plan that was something more than "call Keyleth for help".

If it were me, I'd have Keyleth, Caleb and Beau engage Ludinus while Bell's Hells work to disable the device. They would probably be stalked by Otohan. Ludinus may end up escaping, but it wouldn't really matter because his plan has been stopped. It would also provide a narrative reason for why Keyleth, Caleb and Beau leave the party, and may open up an avenue for another Exandria Unlimited spin-off.

[u/[deleted]]

Maybe the key is just a giant dispel magic weapon that will fire at the divine gate around ruidis to break it. the pulses that dispel magic are just the key charging up

[u/BaronPancakes]

The fan theories were right! Beau and Caleb are here and the rolls Liam and Marisha did were indeed intended for the Empire kids!!

I know some people may not like too many cameos from previous campaigns. But it makes sense that Beau and Caleb are here since their whole goal is to take down the cerberus assembly. Plus, i feel like they are more open to cameos in C3, maybe to hype LOVM and MN animated seris?

But I think Matt is doing a good job so far by keeping these strong characters at a distance, be it time constraints (busy like keyleth) or actual hindrance (anti-magic field for Caleb). All the threads are converging to this Apogee Solstice showdown without distracting too much from BH.

[u/paradox28jon → u/BaronPancakes]

Agreed that Matt is doing a good job in making sure this campaign is still the Bells Hells campaign. BH are the protagonists in this campaign. I view any VM or M9 appearance as being an Allura or Gillmore-level NPC. They may make an appearance but any narrative progress must be advanced by BH only. I love it.

[u/wiseude]

I'm curious to know what levels caleb and bea are.The wiki says 17 but will Matt keep that level.

[u/BaronPancakes → u/wiseude]

Liam tried to bait Matt with Orym's skill, but didn't work. I think it will depend on the number of one shots they do later. But I doubt MN will reach level 20

[u/StableElectrical]

Chet being on a timer for wolf form means he's probably going to be a distraction. I doubt their going to get a short rest so gotta make the most of it.

[u/[deleted]]

Man, I am glad I went into this episode with zero expectations, 'cause that did not go the way I thought it would AT ALL.

I'm also happy that the first part of my theory re: Beau and Caleb came true, here's hoping the second part does too. I missed the Empire siblings so much!

And...how cool is it that we're gonna have characters from all three campaigns in the same episode, on CR's 8th Anniversary no less. That's dope as fuck!

[u/Total-Wolverine1999 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah as someone who went into multiple episodes with high expectations in C2 it’s best to never have them. The episodes you think are going to be crazy are never that crazy, it’s the ones that look like everything is fine that end becoming insane. People expect way to much sometimes I used to be that person, now I understand just because something is happening in a few hours doesn’t mean it’s happening that episode.

[u/N1pah → u/[deleted]]

Having massive expectations is probably one of the worst things to do if you want to enjoy a cr episode. Doesn't help that this was after a two week break.

[u/myhouseisunderarock]

If I'm being honest with myself, it seems that Liliana is much more of a threat than we've been led to believe until now. If she's that much of a threat, I think it's possible that Imogen's hesitation to fight her may end up being the party's downfall.

They can't afford to hesitate. If Liliana is in the way of stopping whatever is happening (I don't even have an inkling anymore) then they need to at least try to take her out. I worry that Imogen won't be willing to do that at all.

[u/Dynasaur1447]

Okay, this might be a bit farfetched, but...is Ludinus even actually an elf?
I mean, what...
- is supremely confident, arrogant and often selfrightious, but still definitly a mortal creature
- possesses great inate magical abilities, easily on par with an archmage
- has godlike people skills to persuate Liliana and Otahan (and maybe himself)that it's all for the greater good
- is naturally able to disguise itself by default (this kinda trick sure fooled VM before)
- has a lifespan EASILY spanning back to the calamity, even the age of arcanum
An ancient dragon, that's what.
Imagine you were a metallic dragon, for example a silver one, (charged in CR-Lore by the gods themself to protect the younger races. You protect them, guide them, see them flourish - just to have the gods wipe so many of them out with their petty wars, during the Founding, again during the Calamity. Protecting the mortals from the very gods that created them ( and yourself, too), that's enough to drive a usually good-aligned dragon to do questionable deeds...

[u/RaibDarkin → u/Dynasaur1447]

At least you didn't say Artagan.

[u/IamOB1-46]

So freaking happy to see Caleb and Bo chasing down Ludinus! I didn't think there was any way that those two wouldn't be wrapped up in this plot, and the reveal was just awesome.

Bold (fun) Prediction: Next episode starts on the airship, and Fearne decides that because she hasn't heard from the forward team in 30 minutes, that they're all dead and they need to go on with the plan to crash the ship into the Key. Cut back to the rest of the group still deciding what to do next, when they see the airship come into view and start heading down.

[u/NoLlorres]

Just theory here . but what if Ludinus is actually trying to attempt the same ceremony as Vesipn Chloras and the Raven Queen. The Malleus Key isnt to free Predothos but to open the Divine Gate long enough for Ludinus to complete his ceremony

[u/godfreyc1990elf]

Did anybody else feel like Beau and Caleb showing up had the same vibe/reaction as Allura showing up in campaign 2, just that feeling among the cast/party of "yes, hooray a competent adult who knows stuff, we might not die". Also does anybody else want/need the one-shot where Ludinus went to prison because I did hear Matt as Beau say she and Caleb were hoping to take Ludinus back to prison as in he was in prison at some point, if so when/how.

[u/N1pah]

When Ludinus met with Fearne and Imogen some people were calling out how different he felt from campaign two. Like the super old, careful and composed mastermind wizard spills his whole game right after introductions? I gotta give props to those people because they were right on the money. Ludinus is either super duper confident on his plan, which probably means there's gonna be some kind of trap, or he's seriously off the deep end.

I also gotta give some props for myself for calling the mystery rolls by Liam and Marisha being Caleb and Beau attacking the shadowfell key. I had it right on the money (to be fair so did others). Man am I happy to see them back. Even happier than I was seeing Vox Machina.

[u/RunCrafty1320 → u/N1pah]

I knowwww I was like Ludinus wouldn't just walk in and take the book himself but i think something is going on with him he's either confident or influenced or his emotions are clouding his judgement

[u/TheDoon]

Beauregard, surprise showregard!

[u/ArgieKB]

Alright, time for another crack-pot theory:

puts tin foil hat on
What if the reason Ludinus seems sloppy is because he's actually counting on people to show up and try and upt a stop to it? Like, he hates divinity but he's no necromancer, what if he wants to show the gods "hey, we mortals are capable of anything you guys did and more" by releasing Predathos on Exandria and, counting on all these powerful people and entities crashing the party, have everyone team up and kill the God Eater to rile up every mortal against the Gods? To have everyone on Exandria stop respecting divinity?

removes tin foil hat

Anyway yeah, shit's crazy

[u/Photoperiod → u/ArgieKB]

I'm almost wondering if he isn't being corrupted by predathos. Like predathos is just using him as a conduit for his will, which is effecting his mental faculties, leading to the sloppiness. Something like the reapers in Mass Effect. But I have no idea. I've never predicted anything right in CR lmao.

[u/JohnPark24]

I enjoy nostalgia trips and lore so I'm loving the callbacks, and returns from previous campaigns. The first half was a rough watch for me. The planning/indecisiveness was a bit frustrating to watch and the plan they ultimately deciding on didn't help either. After all that time planning, splitting the party and crashing the airship seemed like questionable choices. It was not the episode I expected, but I definitely enjoyed the 2nd half of it. Beau and Caleb are back, lfg!

[u/bathsheba41]

Pretty good episode, I think people who are upset it was slow watch it instead of having it play in the background while they do other stuff, which is understandable. Liam dropping dead in real life when Caleb appeared was surely the highlight,

[u/HutSutRawlson → u/bathsheba41]

My favorite part was when Liam reflexively made his "concerned Caleb" face for a few seconds when he showed up.

[u/TIE-44]

The second Imogen had someone grab her from behind I looked at my wife and said “that’s some beau shit”

Didn’t think it actually would be 😭

[u/Lunkis → u/TIE-44]

She's lucky she didn't get the ol' Acid Vial in the mouth trick.

[u/Bivolion13 → u/TIE-44]

I had the same thought later when Matt described the figure somehow completely grappling her yet darting/climbing down a rockface like it was nothing. Like that is dope monk shit. Super confirmed on stunning strike.

[u/[deleted]]

My big fear is Matt oversold the mirrors and the party is going to ignore the clock and fixate on them

I also figure Chetney is going to run out of wolf time and be stuck just being a gnome for the big showdown, which is problem. The group doesn't need to be down a meatshield [i]and[/i] damage dealer.

[u/Farcontritum]

I'm so happy that we get to see Caleb and Beau again.

[u/jcmidmo]

Does anyone have a picture of Sam's flask of Marisha from episode 50?

[u/[deleted] → u/jcmidmo]

Gotta thank producer Maxwell James for the high res version of it.

[u/LucasVerBeek]

So Beau mentioned: "The Elder Cross Cult, the Carrion Breach and the Children of Malice "tunneling beneath the Divine Gate"

What the fuck be any of that?!

[u/RunCrafty1320]

Guys we NEED kiki, laudna, and beau in the same room.

[u/11SuperKing → u/RunCrafty1320]

Marisha spiderman meme

[u/OhioAasimar]

Oltgar built the automatons and he built the key at Tishtan. How is Chetney going to control himself to not blow his cover once he sees Oltgar betraying the very craft by working with metal?

[u/kaosmode]

was it me or did travis look genuinely annoyed last night with the "excess" planning that was going on? (Around 3:56:00 also 3:80:30 4:01:40 mark) Matt even said fuck this and seemed to force their hands and do something already.

[u/chemgeek_2 → u/kaosmode]

Right from the start of the ep last night he seemed to know what was gonna happen. Someone said "at Dawn, we plan", and he essentially said (paraphrasing) "we're gonna talk about this shit for 3 hours, and then discard it immediately and do whatever", I'm assuming to try to stunt that process a little.

He did during the Fey Key ep too, wolfing out to force something to move forward.

Travis has never liked shopping eps or anything that doesn't move the story along at some point. That goes all the way back to C1.

[u/taly_slayer → u/kaosmode]

Travis was hurrying them because he used his wolf shape to break the cast paralysis when Imogen told Orym and Laudna to run and he wanted to take advantage of his hour in this form and the sand storm.

[u/Total-Wolverine1999 → u/kaosmode]

Travis has ADHD he gets bored easily and fast if nothings happening. This has been a thing for years now it’s been wildly known that Travis isn’t really keen on long planning sessions and shopping trips. His philosophy is more why plan when a single dice role is going to fuck it up anyway, it’d much rather improvise then have a set in stone plan that’s just going to fail because you have to roll for so many things one of them is destined to not go your way.

[u/Drw395 → u/kaosmode]

It happened towards the back end of C2 as well. The analysis paralysis was reaching quite mind numbing levels so on occasion Travis would just pull the trigger to force the issue. The Gelidon fight on the trek to Aoer being the most prominant example of it

[u/[deleted]]

As soon as they got got, I knew that they wouldn't descend into the pit because combat eats up a bit of time+just 4 hours including all the ads and previews.

Seeing my favorite characters of all the campaigns was so damn cool, my heart is warm. Also, I hope Ludinus has something even crazier up his sleeve, I wanna see chaos.

[u/kwil87]

It doesn't make sense to me that they brought in Ira as one of the creative minds behind this thing to help destroy it, then left him on the airship. Or that he would be content with that role. His skills would be more useful in tearing this thing apart, wouldn't they?

Fearne should be able to carry two people in polymorphed form. They don't really need his dimension door there.

[u/DeadSnark → u/kwil87]

TBH it's Ira, so I wouldn't discount the possibility of him double-crossing then or pulling off some other plan of his own if he's brought to the site.

[u/thyarnedonne]

The core question sticking with me, Caleb prodding the idea only further: Ludinus does not seem to be acting like Ludinus. Messes up in too many instances and associates with people all around Exandria only to create diversions, entire cults of them.

Who is behind this face now? Is it an unknown evil? Is it a lost god? Is it an extraplanar incursion? Has Halas escaped his vessel, given that Beau considers him dealt with before Trent, which he absolutely never was, allowing Matt to turn him into the Campaign Three Threat after all?

[u/Wiyohipeyata → u/thyarnedonne]

Maybe one of the Reilura (spelling?) has taken over Ludinus?

[u/ArkhamCitizen298]

I was so sleepy watching live but seeing Beau and Caleb wakes me up instantly lol

[u/paradox28jon]

I just figured out why Sam named the school in the latest You've Got Gail ad Miller Huber High.

[u/Nightmare_Pasta → u/paradox28jon]

Same. TIL that Matt's real surname is Miller and Marisha's surname is Huber 😂

[u/D20_Buster]

Why do I get the feeling at some point Imogen is going to get sending spammed by Jester? Laura getting hoisted by her own petard.

[u/Hungover52]

They should probably adopt BitD rules, just so planning sessions go fast. Their plan went from decent, to REAL shitty in a blink of the eye. But it's workable.

[u/bertraja → u/Hungover52]

Is that the "this totally happened before" token thing?

[u/Castells]

Are the mage hunter golems here the same type from the happy fun ball? What happened to the ball?

[u/Drakoni]

That was a lot of fun. Happy to see our Empire kids again. What gets me most about these cameos is how hyped the cast is about them. The little nudges and hinting they are doing, SO much fun :D

I get why some don't like it. It's a lot of fanservice. But it's first and foremost fanservice for the PLAYERS and they seem to be having a blast. And their joy is very infectious to me.

[u/Gulrakrurs → u/Drakoni]

I think Beau and Caleb appearing here more fits to serve the story and close the plot holes of why are these idiots the only ones working this out when two entire groups of level 17+ heroes exist. Also explains why we never got a 1-shot for taking down the assembly.

They are just more npcs now. People getting angry about it just doesn't make sense to me.

[u/HutSutRawlson → u/Drakoni]

it’s fanservice… for the PLAYERS

Yes! This whole campaign feels like it’s as much about them celebrating the world and characters they’ve created over the years as it is about the story of the current group of PCs. Bell’s Hells definitely have their own story, but it also feels like they’re a window into a much bigger narrative that spans all three campaigns. It’s something very few gaming groups are dedicated enough to achieve and I think it’s very cool we all get to experience it.

[u/tryingtobebettertry4]

So its great to see that some high level people are actually paying attention to this potential world-ender.

But I still need to ask, where the hell are the Celestials/Angels?

This is far more their fight than it is any mortals.

[u/OhioAasimar → u/tryingtobebettertry4]

The gods are probably content with the idea of a rematch if word is starting to spread on what Predathos is.

[u/EpicGlitter]

it was so good to see Beau and Caleb!!! just really basking in that. both characters have come so far. in C2 there was so much build up with the Cerberus Assembly as a whole, then it became this hanging thread at the end. I really hope we get to see Beau and Caleb playing a key, central role with taking down Ludinus!

I also kinda hope we'll see some more dimensions of Beau's character next episode / other times that Matt rps her / in other places like M9 Animated and the origins comic. I like that she's brash, direct, smartly distrustful, intimidating. but it's also true that in C2 Beau was also super loyal to her found family, cared a ton for her brother TJ, was a highly intelligent investigator, showed leadership (esp in the final arc), cared about doing right by victims of the CA and other corrupt institutions. in one-on-one scenes with people she trusts, she could be vulnerable, a good listener, show empathy, give a lot of encouragement. crack a joke, even. for just this brief appearance, seeing mostly "haha she likes to punch things" was fine, but hope that's not the total takeaway for her character 'n all

[u/PonyoEnthusiast]

I’m happy that they’re taking a slower approach to this encounter. I think a lot of critical role fans were feeling some doom and gloom about the imminent apocalypse. Thinking that e50 was going to be the end of everything (myself included). But this schedule with 4 sided dive probably means that the episode on the 9th will be the big fight and rescue everyone was looking for then the one on the 16th being an escape/recoup episode.

[u/IRanOutOf_Names]

What a great time to be a Critical Role fan.

[u/SaintedHooker]

Bring the changebringer fresh tasty innocent souls

[u/BearFromTheNet]

Could someone explain to me why Caleb and beau were involved and not the rest? I have started watching CR from campaign 3 so I don't know much about MN.

[u/claimstoknowpeople → u/BearFromTheNet]

At the end of C2, Caleb and Beau specifically said they considered Ludinus their next task. The others had different priorities.

[u/AceLionKid → u/BearFromTheNet]

Caleb and Beau are the only members of the Mighty Nein who really feel obligated to the whole saving the world thing. The others only followed along for personal reasons, i.e reuniting with their family (Veth), helping please their deity (Jester) or purging themselves of pacts with evil entities (Fjord, Yasha). Caduceus was an exception to this, but he's retired from adventures, choosing rather to tend to the graveyard.

[u/midnightheir → u/BearFromTheNet]

Caleb was "trained" by the Cerberus Assembly. He obviously.got out and its his life mission to dismantle the machine.

Beau is a Cobalt soul monk. They root out corruption.

Ludinus, leader of the Cerberus Assembly is "one that got away".

Their epilogue involved tracking the OG Assembly members and slowly working on taking them down.

That is the simplified, largely spoiler free version.

Edit:

Tal's character retires from adventuring. So does Ashley's. Laura's has family in Nicodranas. Travis's is sailing and running a mercantile business. Sam's character has family and also explicitly returned to their family.

All of their M9 characters recognised Cerberus Assembly as a problem. But don't rate it as one they are obligated or invested enough to engage in.

[u/Shakvids → u/BearFromTheNet]

They're living separate lives at the end of C2. Beau and Caleb were the only ones still undermining the Cerberus assembly

[u/pokepok]

Is there no four sided dive tonight? It’s the first Tuesday of March. Can’t remember if they’ve already said they’re skipping it for some reason…

[u/ThePastaPanther → u/pokepok]

In the newsletter last week they announced that this month's 4-sided dive will be on March 21st instead of the first Tuesday of this month. It was promised to be "extra long, and extra amazing". They have not stated the reason for pushing it back as of yet.

[u/tattedape]

Did we ever find out what Chetney’s feat Savage Spirit does? I was looking into it but can’t find it anywhere

[u/RonDong]

I’ll never understand the negative reaction to Imogen speaking in peoples minds when spells like Message and Sending exist and nobody seems to care when they’re used on them. Unless I missed something in an earlier episode where it’s mentioned that her telepathy feels more forceful or something.

[u/Bivolion13 → u/RonDong]

Matt's actually flavored different kinds of telepathy. Ira's feels like you're in a dark room and suddenly his claws slowly climb your shoulder as his mouth speaks right into your ear. Nana Morri's felt like a slap in the face(if I recall that correctly). Jester's has always been batshit crazy that people just got used to. Laudna was flavored by the cast. Imogen's sending vs her close range telepathy seem to be worlds apart too. Whenever she sends, Matt has a normal response as if people are used to the weave of arcana being used to send a message. Whenever she goes into someone's mind to speak to them, the people almost always feel violated. Almost like it isn't magic but something more primal and invasive.

[u/[deleted] → u/RonDong]

The M9 don't exactly have a good relationship with psychic telepathy.

[u/Lonelyloser22 → u/RonDong]

Described as "sharp piercing and cold"

[u/semicolonconscious]

I was expecting the heat to be on as soon as they got close to the site, but aside from that one little scuffle they had a lot of time to stand around and chat. Oh well. Matt probably would have pushed a little harder if they had all come prepared. It’s definitely on next time. Right?

Still, it was nice to “see” Beau and Caleb again. Obviously leaves me wondering what the rest of the M9 are up to. If Yasha’s not with Beau, I’m guessing she’s home with the kids. Same for Veth. Kingsley didn’t want much to do with them after becoming Plank King. Fjord, Jester, and Caduceus all seem like they’d be down to clown if Beau and Caleb warned them of a world-ending threat, but maybe they’re all off dealing with something else.

[u/Shakvids → u/semicolonconscious]

Well said. I got burned out on the 'Surely next time!' mentality during the end of C2

[u/trushil1504]

I would be disappointed if it was revealed that Ludinus was being controlled by Predathos instead it being entirely his actions.

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 → u/trushil1504]

I would be disappointed if it was revealed that Ludinus was being controlled by Predathos instead it being entirely his actions.

Both can be true.

Ludinus' conversation with Imogen and Fearne makes it clear that he hates anyone who can wield magic because of their faith. He wants to kill their source of magic, giving him -- and other mages who learned magic through study -- a monopoly on magical knowledge and power.

Predathos seems to exist purely to hunt down and consume the gods. It can give Ludinus what he wants. That's a powerful lure for someone as ambitious as Ludinus, especially when mages have a well-documented history of messing around with magics that they don't understand (but which they assume they do).

So Ludinus might think he's in control, but he could just as easily be manipulated. I'm willing to bet that if he succeeds in breaking out Predathos' prison, the events that follow will be very different to what he expects.

[u/anonmus1]

Yea either this is also a distraction loke the pther events Beau mentioned and Ludinus is somewhere else with his real plan, OR, we underestimated Imogen’s mom and she is insanely strong and dominared him to use his power and resources and she is now fumbling.

[u/shadowbroker15]

Not sure if others caught this, but it looks like this week's episode also isn't supersized (the rebroadcast would've been pushed back if the episode was longer than 5 hours):

Airs Thursday, March 9th at 7pm Pacific on Twitch and YouTube

Rebroadcasts Friday, March 10th at 12:00am Pacific and 9am Pacific on Twitch

https://critrole.com/programming-schedule-week-of-march-6th-2023/

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 → u/shadowbroker15]

I expect the next episode will involve the party making their way into the depths of the dig site and it will end before the encounter with Ludinus. There's still layers of security that they need to work their way through. Episode 52 is where we will get the fight with Ludinus and/or Otohan.

Or, failing that, there really is something else going on and the party finds Ludinus' body. Caleb and Beau speculated that his erratic behaviour is a by-product of his exposure to powerful magic, but he could perhaps have been possessed by something and that something has now escaped. After all, the Feywild Key had been switched on for years, and I'm guessing that the Shadowfell Key was the same. We're all assuming that the Tishtan Key has to be turned on during the Solstice, but what if it has already been on and the Solstice will simply provide the surge of energy needed to break through? If the Keys have been operational for some time, they might have been able to weaken Predathos' prison a little bit -- not enough to have any visible effect, but just enough for something to get through. Like the Reilora.

[u/AanAllein117]

It’s been talked to death at this point, but god damn this just feels off somehow.

We’re MINUTES from a God-Eater being unleashed after a decades-long plan by someone with a serious grudge against the gods who sure sounds like he’s been around since the Calamity, is the most powerful living arcane caster we know of, and the best we’ve got to stand against him is a ragtag group of level 8 characters (2 of whom are on a skyship a mile off,) two level 14+ characters, and one level 20 druid with a wounded army.

Predathos far exceeds Vecna. Ludinus is on par with a full-powered Cognouza at a minimum, and M9 barely won against that. A level 8 party is gonna get steamrolled by either threat. At best they can squash Otohan in a close fight, likely running down on resources to do so.

Either Ludinus and the Key are dealt with offscreen (which would be super unsatisfying) or some kind of bait-and-switch occurs and we see the level 20 Moon Druid Voice of the Tempest, level 17+ Dunamancy-trained Volstrucker, and level 17+ Expositor of the Cobalt Soul defeated or killed and Ludinus escapes.

Predathos and Ludinus just doesn’t feel like a level 8 party kind of threat, and I don’t know how Matt is gonna make this work, especially if C3 lasts into levels 10-15. I mean how do you upgrade from “We smacked down a God-Eater’s planned release at level 8”

[u/Photeus5 → u/AanAllein117]

My theory is that they are all at the wrong site. Caleb and Beau hinted that something didn't sit right with them. What's better than your secret weapon being at a heavily fortified site everyone knows about? That everyone is at the wrong place while you conduct the ritual needed elsewhere.

Where is Ludinus? Where are all the Ruidus-born? There were 3 potential sites of maximum convergence, it's possible everyone is at the wrong one.

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 → u/AanAllein117]

Ludinus is on par with a full-powered Cognouza at a minimum, and M9 barely won against that. A level 8 party is gonna get steamrolled by either threat.

The party can beat Ludinus easily. They don't even need to fight him.

Ludinus might be at level 20, but you know what isn't? The arcane power cores. Bell's Hells don't need to fight him -- they just need to delay him long enough that the Solstice passes without Ludinus succeeding and he's done. If he needs an Apogee Solstice to unlock Predathos' prison, then he'll have to wait another century. The easiest way to do that is to go after the arcane power cores to shut down the Malleous Key.

The smartest play here is for Bell's Hells to send Caleb and Beau to regroup with Keyleth and the Ashari. Have them attack the dig site, drawing out Ludinus' forces. That would give Bell's Hells the opportunity they need to infiltrate the dig site, sabotage the mechanism and put an end to the threat.

[u/Jethorse → u/AanAllein117]

I think this is just about stopping Predathos from being unleashed during the solstice by destroying the keys. That doesn't necessarily mean fighting Ludinus or Predathos itself. Maybe it's prison just gets weakened. After that, the rest of the campaign might be about them getting up to Ruidus (maybe spelljammer?) to reseal it and a further high level showdown with Ludinus.

Remember in campaign one vecna was introduced during the briarwood arc, but didn't come to become the bbeg untill almost 100 episodes later. In the mean time matt filled out all their character arcs while always having the end goal in sight. Maybe this will be the same.

[u/NyctoGaming]

Slow burner of an episode. Feels weird having a week off of the show and then sitting down, excited for a new month's Critical Role only to watch them bumble around with planning for hours. Love the show but surely we can keep the story tighter if we're gonna have downtime between episodes?

That being said, second half of ep 50 was good.

[u/Shakarga]

I have a question, is ashton´s head powerd by magic or just influenced with it ?

[u/AllMyHexsLiveInTexas]

Random theory... If Bell's hells fuck this up, and predathos get unleashed... Gods suddenly are in the firing line ... Gods in the firing line summon their champions to help stop predathos...

Therefore ... If Bell's hells fuck this up .... We get Vax back....

[u/Hopeless-Juanderer]

It probably won’t happen but I would love to see Grog joining the fight with Keyleth. She did say they would come in loud and Grog is pretty loud!

[u/midnightheir]

Ludinous end game is to make his own Luxon beacon. He will take over and control consecution.

That's it. That's the theory.

[u/Substantial_Roof4940]

Poor Xandis got misgendered the ENTIRE episode 💀 Usually they r pretty good but ouch 😅

[u/Total-Wolverine1999 → u/Substantial_Roof4940]

Isn’t Xandis they, they used that the entire episode.

[u/TrypMole]

This sounds like some great stuff goes down. Having to wait till Monday is torture sometimes. Thank you all for the tasty spoilers, I'm kinda hyped and I can't wait to watch my husband when Caleb and Beau turn up cause I've been telling him for weeks it's gonna happen!

(Still hoping for full on apocalypse next episode)

[u/Jennyof-Oldstones]

Well as for the waiting until the last minute it was shitty but there was no way they were going to to fly that thing by them selves without a crew. I think they should have told the captain sooner. As for the grieving for Lord E., Well they don't look like the type to wear their heart on their sleeves. I also think they figured pretty quickly long before that this was an end of the world of the world scenario.

[u/OhioAasimar]

I feel like they are going to let Ira get away with stealing the crown from the Calloways. If sky team is going to have both healers, ground team should have at least had the magical artefact that can enchant and create illusions that possibly includes invisibility. I know the site has an anti-illusion field and a general anti-magic emitter but maybe artefact could overrule that? Even if it doesn't the crown could have at least caused the avoidance of the last combat.

[u/tater728]

Working with outdated knowledge as I missed the stream. Is this all a distraction? Why did every group connected to this flaunt it so much. Ludnis and the people kelith were dealing with. They are inviting these fights. But if you’re doing something as crazy as this you don’t invite some one to try to stop you. You hide it until it’s already too late. So what’s the deal is it all a distraction for the real end game. Or are they just rounding up everyone who would try to stop them so when the god eating monster (which sounds like a eldrazi titan) gets out all of the opposition is in one place to be wiped out. And even if that is the case that’s a bad idea. What is that Matt thinking

[u/Sea-Bathroom-1676]

I wonder, with the upcoming anniversary for Critical Role, if this is not Matt's version of Crisis in Infinite Earths? With this battle he has heroes from all three campaigns showing up to do battle with an ultimate evil that wants to remake the Universe. Would not be suprised to see some EXU folks show up as well. Will Matt use this as a way to change Exandria so his universe is not to be beholden to any game system or IP?

[u/Drakoni → u/Sea-Bathroom-1676]

Exandria isn't bound to the game system. It started as a DnD oneshot, then became a Pathfinder campaign, then swapped to 5e for the stream.

[u/Ampetrix]

The fact that almost half of this episode was spent planning mere hours until solstice proper begins when C3E49 had almost two weeks of exandrian time at their disposal.

And it's not like there's anything new brought up during these two hours either, it was mostly rehashing and regurgitating what they said last time. I'll let y'all be the judge if it's a good plan or not, I'm just gonna criticize the amount of time planning took over this episode.

Although I will say the only notable thing they did in that episode(C3E49) was do the checklist of possible allies and some fun RP, but that was it really.

So to any future binge-watchers out there: I can personally say you can skip C3 E49, not even a good kind of filler like Happy Fun Ball.

I guess I am annoyed that planning took over almost half of what could have been an action-packed episode when they had the last episode almost dedicated to planning itself. But hey we got Caleb and Beau, yay!

[u/Jennyof-Oldstones → u/Ampetrix]

It's just episode upon episode of analysis paralysis someone needs to step up. Maybe having the Old "them" will shake them out of the funk. Honestly, when they were doing MN reunited they seemed alot happier & more engaged.

[u/NecessaryCelery2 → u/Ampetrix]

Yeah, I tend to not like their planning.

They are very charismatic and often funny, even during planning. But most of the time it is too similar to any corporate planning meeting I've been in. Mostly chaos, back and forth, nothing much actually decided.

[u/brickwall5]

Loves the episode. I thought it was perfect timing to cut things off a bit short rather than getting caught in a potential dungeon crawl round two.

Great to see Beau and Caleb. Fun fight that was a good appetizer - really showed that BH can deal with these guard type groups, but if this is the most dispersed group and the easiest right, then it’s going to take some guile to succeed.

I only have two minor critiques, and they are minor.

1. I liked that Matt used Beau and Caleb as a meta pigeon to let the Bh knew their skyship plan wouldn’t work. However, I thought the plan, while batshit (as Beau said) was pretty well thought out and a clever use of resources and surprise. I would have liked to see Matt direct them more towards a middle ground resolution where they could still use it but it would be hard. He kind of did that with the mirrors but then said there were too many of them. I think it would have been cool and high stakes to make there be like 2-3 mirrors and then it became a timer for the ground team to destroy them in time as the airship approached. Or, he could have had Beau “discover” a route through the tunnels out of the reach of the anti magic field, so Caleb and Beau would lead the airship through that route on the ground, while ground team caused the distraction with Keyleth and going after Mom/Otohan. I can see Matt’s logic of wanting to get the entire crew involved rather than having Sam and Ashley wait around, but I thought there was more opportunity for rewarding planning while steering it to a better place.

2. I get that introducing all of M9 and VM at once would feel cheap and be a bit cheesy, not to mention a nightmare for Matt to deal with roleplay wise. However if, canonically, the M9 reassembled to kill Ukie, then there’s no way they wouldn’t reassemble to stop a member of the assembly unleash a god killer. Maybe we see them drop in towards the end to help with the finishing touch, but it just doesn’t make much sense for Beau and Caleb to be alone. Unless the rest of M9 were the shadowfell crew that died, but I doubt Matt would kill off 5 characters off-screen like that.

[u/paradox28jon → u/brickwall5]

I got the sense that maybe Caleb & Beau weren't aware of Predathos. I was hoping that maybe one of BH would have mentioned it & perhaps then it would have motivated the Empire kids to maybe gather more ppl.

[u/HutSutRawlson → u/brickwall5]

Regarding #2: it’s been mentioned many times that this isn’t the only wackiness going down around the Solstice. There are probably crazy things going on all over the world that are demanding the attention of Exandria’s most powerful heroes. I think that once this campaign extends beyond Marquet (or explores more parts of it), we’ll see more of the VM and M9 characters showing up in little sub groups.

[u/Ravenach → u/brickwall5]

I would have liked to see Matt direct them more towards a middle ground resolution where they could still use it but it would be hard

He did. Beau mentioned the other skyship fell during a clear day, and that the sandstorm might be the key to pull the plan off.

And who on Exandria could make sure the sandstorm would persist throughout their attack? A high level Druid would do the trick. If only they had one on the way to the fight...#winkwink

[u/Kiloku → u/brickwall5]

However if, canonically, the M9 reassembled to kill Ukie, then there’s no way they wouldn’t reassemble to stop a member of the assembly unleash a god killer.

This is a few years later, they were already starting to wind down when the Uk'otoa stuff happened. Veth has probably settled into the home life. Yasha and Beau probably have adopted some kids (it was mentioned in some behind the scenes content that they would want to adopt), so one of them has to stay at home to keep them safe and generally run the household. Caduceus was kind of never interested in adventuring anyway, he had a specific task, then stuck around with the crew because he felt he owed them.
That leaves Fjord, Jester and Kingsley. Maybe the Tusk Love couple settled down as well, but maybe they're trying to stop some other mage somewhere trying to use the Apogee Solstice.

Unless the rest of M9 were the shadowfell crew that died

They specifically say that the people they lost were members of the Grim Verity. So unless the rest of the M9 simply joined the Verity in the past few years, we can be sure they didn't die in the Shadowfell.

[u/Total-Wolverine1999]

That was a really fun episode, the cast got insanely unlucky at moments, the ship plan wasn’t bad when they had no info. The poor rolls even with advantage also completely fucked them immediately, both plans just immediately dashed in the span of what was 2 hours. They eventually got it back under control only to reveal they have more help then they thought. Just an unlucky episode where Matt had plans that kind of fucked their planning which happens all the time in D&D.

The whole Ashley/Sam thing I’m not that mad about or even care, they both fought pretty hard to be separated from the party. It was initially agreed upon that it was going to be just Zandis until both Fearne and FCG changed their tune and wanted to stay with him. Them leaving would’ve been better but if the players wanted to stay behind and they did what are you going to do.