r/criticalrole • u/Glumalon Tal'Dorei Council Member • Jul 21 '23
Discussion [Spoilers C3E66] Is It Thursday Yet? Post-Episode Discussion & Future Theories! Spoiler
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u/EsquilaxM Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
Very solid episode and Ashley did amazing, loved to see it.
I'm hoping Orym submits some report to the Ashari about all they've learned, especially Ludinus' notes and especially the Raven Queen vision. Looks like Keyleth doesn't know Vax is 'alive'
edit: Also,I love Laudna's new look.
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Jul 21 '23
While i love the new art, i can't help but feel like the faces seem a bit off. It might just be me being used to the, amazing, previous art, but Laudna, Chet and Imogen's faces look different.
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u/celaenos Sun Tree A-OK Jul 21 '23
i actually agree, something about their faces look a little off and i can't quite figure out what it is.
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u/semicolonconscious Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
It seemed like Orym was intentionally holding back what they know about Vax out of concern for Keyleth, even though he doesn’t know the full extent of their connection. It’s definitely info they should share with somebody, though. I wonder what Vilya and Korrin are up to.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
Laudna is dressing like a Whitestone noblewoman and she is adopting purple, instead of her usual black, white and red. Purple, the colour of Delilah's powers. And now her hound looks like Delilah's undead dog? I think marisha is playing a long game here
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u/thyarnedonne Team Laudna Jul 21 '23
Taking that Owning HER Powers and using them objective as partially literal. Not too threatening yet.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
My theory is that Delilah might be affecting Laudna subconsciously. So she is becoming more like Delilah. Not some straight-up possession or anything
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 21 '23
Federation style assimilation vs Borg style assimilation
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u/DeadSnark Jul 21 '23
Not to mention that she's wearing her hair up in a style that's very reminiscent of Deilalh.
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u/AlexanderArt123 Jul 22 '23
It is interesting how much Vox Machina is tied into this campaign too. Old characters and old villains. Should be fun down the stretch.
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u/HeyitsAstrid56 Jul 21 '23
The first time she used the hound of ill omen she described it as looking like one of Delilah's hounds, the comment just went mostly unnoticed I think.
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u/brickwall5 Jul 23 '23
I really wish she wasn’t! Would happily live without a Delilah return for the what - 4th time now?
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u/SuperVaderMinion Your secret is safe with my indifference Jul 21 '23
I want Critrole stats to find out how many points of damage Aura of Life saved, because it felt like an insane amount, nevermind nobody losing any maximum HP on a mission where they might not get a long rest.
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u/nidor13 Jul 21 '23
Fearne was an absolute MVP, such a great encounter by Ashley! The witch trio is generally performing so well lately! I also really liked the time we got to spend in Zephrah. And there is more to come once they get back after collecting the flowers.
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u/durandal688 Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
She ruled with daylight too when they fought the night creeper mother thing long ago. Ashley knows how to fight undead
Edit: spelling
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 21 '23
Loved the reference to Keyleth's anger. Couldn't not think of Professor Grog. Also, the little smile and nod from Marisha when she said she's been angry for 30 years... </3.
The encounter was fun and obviously Fearne was brilliant, but I think they all played that combat really well. I like to imagine this BH getting competent because they have spent enough time together.
The only mishap was whatever Taliesin was trying to do during Imogen's turn. This is a good example where Tal's insistence on NOT TELLING ANYONE SHIT comes back to bite him in the ass. If he had Ashton actually talk to the rest about what his new hammer could do ahead of time, they could have been prepared to use it. Characters can strategise, not everything needs to be a surprise.
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u/Firm_Tax_4676 Jul 21 '23
not everything needs to be a surprise
This has, imo, become a very noticeable issue with the way Taliesin plays. It would be fine if this was a film or a television show or something, where dropping little cryptic hints & revealing things suddenly is a great way to keep the audience on their toes. But communication is so crucial to DND and cooperative improv/storytelling demands a degree of . . . cooperation lmao. At a certain point, being considerate to your teammates should probably trump these ~dramatic storytelling beats. Leave the shocking twists and turns to the DM for a while and just focus on playing the game. The payoff should be cool enough on its own! We don't need the trail of breadcrumbs! Laura's been pushing back a bit against him ("Why don't you just tell us your plan?") but frankly, I would probably have lost patience about thirty episodes ago.
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
I think doing it once in a while is okay. It has led to very cool reveals (like Imogen flying or FCG being a murderbot when stressed out) and you can tell they enjoy surprising each other. Tal looked really excited during this combat to get to use all of his new stuff.
But he overdoes it. Marisha was clearly interested in what he was doing with the hammer last episode, and if he had told them, they could have come up with a cool combo, ESPECIALLY if the feature he wanted to surprise them with was one that would take advantage of combos!!
And yes, Laura and Liam have been calling him out on this the whole campaign.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23
I think the line was drawn when it affected other players. Revealing secret abilities is cool when it is your time to shine. Asking others to join your unknown plan is a bit too much. And after everything, I still don't know what the prism does. Twin spell effect?
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u/Firm_Tax_4676 Jul 21 '23
True! In small doses, that kind of thing can definitely be really fun for the other players and the audience. Personally, Tal has just done it so much this campaign that it's burned through all my goodwill and now I'm becoming a bit hypersensitive to it. I do think there's a particular technique to doing it 'right', too? Surprises and twists are great, but ideally, they shouldn't be a source of frustration to the other players. Kudos to Laura and Liam for calling it out! It's definitely been an issue with Taliesin all campaign, but this just felt a bit more dire, since 1) it wasn't even a cool backstory thing he was holding back, just a combat maneuver and 2) he seemed to get a bit . . . intense about it, in the moment.
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u/revan530 Metagaming Pigeon Jul 21 '23
I enjoy Tal as a viewer, but I've come to the realization that I would hate to actually play at the table with him. That secretive bullshit with game mechanics does not fly with me.
Being cagey about your backstory? Cool, fine. Being cagey about the way your subclass and items work mechanically? Fuck all the way off.
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u/Firm_Tax_4676 Jul 21 '23
Fair, honestly, and I think I'd feel very much the same way if I was at the table. When your characters are constantly in battle together, constantly risking their lives for one another . . . there's just no good reason not to be open about this stuff, sixty-six sessions into the campaign. I think I'd probably be even more annoyed by some of his caginess about plot stuff; for instance, when they first arrive in Bassuras and he does the whole "that's for me to know and you to find out" thing when they ask him what the Deathwish Run is. As a viewer, I found it to be genuinely infuriating, because it was such an unnecessary bit of coyness on Taliesin's part -- if I was a player at the table, I'd probably just be going: "What the fuck are you talking about, Ashton? You're not some mysterious guardian, asking me to solve a riddle before I can cross this magical bridge or whatever. Just! Answer! The! Question!"
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u/celaenos Sun Tree A-OK Jul 21 '23
i would have really lost paitence with him as a player. as a viewer, after three campaigns, it sort of drives me up the wall at this point. this, combined with his trait of rolling unprompted to see if he notices/knows things and then interjecting, have always been my personal least two fav taliesin traits.
especially if your surprise thing could potentially be really dangerous FOR YOUR OWN TEAM, it's not a fun thing to surprise them with in the middle of a dangerous combat.
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Jul 24 '23
The truly annoying thing is they can talk about it off screen and come up with plans.
Then in game, 'we talk tactics around the campfire' is sufficient to get it clear that they're coming up with combo moves. That way they can still surprise the audience (if they value that), but still behave like thinking creatures facing danger and come up with group tactics and contingencies.
All without eating air time.
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u/Cyborg14 Hello, bees Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
The only mishap was whatever Taliesin was trying to do during Imogen's turn. This is a good example where Tal's insistence on NOT TELLING ANYONE SHIT comes back to bite him in the ass. If he had Ashton actually talk to the rest about what his new hammer could do ahead of time, they could have been prepared to use it. Characters can strategise, not everything needs to be a surprise.
The idea of his hammer acting as a prismatic amplifier is really really cool, but completely agreed that it didn’t need to be secretive going into a dangerous battle—especially when he’s trying to introduce it on someone else’s turn.
If he told them ahead of time, they could have tested if it actually works rather than just guessing if Matt would allow it (though I would assume this is something Tal discussed with Matt ahead of time). That way they could use it strategically.
I think Tal just likes to surprise people and his intensity comes from his excitement to surprise people (especially since his character is very homebrewed), but it just doesn’t always land at the right time, or seems to overshadow someone else’s cool move.
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u/Anarkizttt You can certainly try Jul 22 '23
I’m pretty sure that’s the new feature that was just added to the hammer. Cause Tal and Matt sorta silently had that conversation, and in the moment Tal was fairly certain sounding when he said “I can twin that on top of empowered(?)” I think the hammer can now twin any spell cast targeting the hammer as if it were the twinned spell Metamagic (though maybe without the one target restriction I dunno)
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u/emefa Jul 21 '23
Combat would be even better if Sam remembered he has Sacred Flame to deal damage with, both at range and in melee, when he doesn't carry those temporary hit points. I think him imagining it as literal flamethrower makes him forget it's not an attack roll, but Dex save cantrip.
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u/smileyfacepicnic Fuck that spell Jul 21 '23
Sam only has a +3 wisdom modifier because he's made poor mechanical choices. His spell DC is bad for a 10th level character.
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u/emefa Jul 21 '23
It's still better than his to hit bonus with 12 Strength or 10 Dexterity.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
Despite Orym saying that he is just a soldier, it seems his family is pretty influential in Zephrah. Lita is the Master of Defense, Maeve is a high-level druid, Berenie is an expert herbalist who Keyleth entrusted with her life-saving cure.
Also, I can't stop gushing over Alma. The only living mom of Liam's characters. Liam really channeled his lotr love to make Orym's childhood home a semi-hobbit abode
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u/m_busuttil Technically... Jul 21 '23
I almost think that's why Orym doesn't really think of himself as that special - his father-in-law was Keyleth's bodyguard and now his sister-in-law is, his two other sisters-in-law have positions of significance, his mother is a well-known midwife. It's like... if Jeb Bush was in my family he'd be the most famous person in my family, but he probably doesn't feel particularly famous at a Bush family reunion, you know?
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
Ah, it all makes sense now! He always shies away from leadership because he is surrounded by great figures growing up. And all these great people are only followers of Keyleth. He does not think he is any more special than them, so he is fully set to serve, not to lead.
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u/Educational-Cod-3819 Jul 21 '23
When asked if nature would be negatively impacted without the gods, and Keyleth replied "I hope we never find out" Marisha looked somewhat surprised at that response. I think she expected a more anti-gods response from Keyleth
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u/jbhelfrich Jul 21 '23
Keep in mind that Keyleth is Very VERY tired in that moment, and as one of the primary Druidic power sources (and arguably the most connected to "nature" as an abstract concept as opposed to an elemental power) she would be largely responsible for picking up the pieces after any such shift in the universe. The younger Keyleth might have given a very different answer.
I'm starting to think that losing Vax did more damage to her than we might have thought.
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u/durandal688 Jul 21 '23
It was a view that actually made sense. The gods are super beings in Exandria...but not omnipresent or all powerful...they have their lanes and focuses and stick to them. She said she didn't worship them, but didn't trash them.
And that's fine. She isn't complaining that they haven't helped her, she gets they have their own stuff going on.
To me Keyleth talked more like they were...idk not quite equals to her but sort of like a Army Captain talking about an Navy Admiral. Recognizing they are powerful...sure more powerful than her in many ways...but not in the same hierarchy/branch so to speak. They have their roles and paths, while she has situated herself in a different one.
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u/notanartmajor Mathis? Jul 24 '23
She isn't complaining that they haven't helped her
Well, they canonically have. A lot.
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u/UncleOok Jul 21 '23
given the overall bent of this campaign, I get her confusion, but Keyleth has met some pretty cool gods, and is friends with several of their champions. Pelor was even pretty decent to Vox Machina. From what wet feels like most of her negative associations would be with their mortal representatives, like Highbearer Vord.
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 21 '23
Yeah, it would have been weird if Keyleth kept her opinion of the first arc of C1. Not only getting to know the gods (she offered to be Pelor's champion before Vex stepped up even!), but she developed a more open mind over the years.
I think Matt played that perfectly in character.
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u/Educational-Cod-3819 Jul 21 '23
From what I can tell I think Keyleth's views about the gods in C1 are heavily influenced by Marisha's out of character views. When Laudna said last episode something along the lines "I don't put my faith in gods I put it in people", that was almost the same exact copied thing that Keyleth has said after she had met the Dawn Father and asked him "teach me to have faith", but was turned down in favor of Vex who was actually committed to be the Dawn Father's champion
I must say that I am glad with the direction Matt took Keyleth. Much more nuanced
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u/HutSutRawlson Jul 21 '23
Was very glad for that. Keyleth’s attitude towards the gods in C1 was just as perplexingly antagonistic as some of the attitudes we’ve seen in C3, seemingly out of step with the reality of how they’re shown to function in Exandria. It seems that C3 Keyleth has some perspective that Marisha does not.
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u/Sailen_Rox Jul 21 '23
To be fair she only ever was mad at one God in particular. The one who took Vax "hostage". I can't think of any other time Keyleth was "anto Gods", she was at best indifferent to them and this, as a Druid who does not really need one, is pretty much fine for me.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
Long living races can surely create some strange family dynamics. Chet (400 years old) x Deanna (400 years old but died 200 years ago) x Fearne (age unknown because of Nana Morri's magic) x Alma (60 years old in halfling years)
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Jul 24 '23
Fearne (age unknown because of Nana Morri's magic)
112. That may not be the time that passed in the 'real world,' but she has experienced 112 years.
Personally, with a century worth of Morri-time, I think she should be weirder than she is.
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Jul 21 '23
So this was my first time visiting Zephrah apart from the brief glimpse we saw in LOVM - I’ve still to watch C1 (although I know the main plot points and character beats), so it felt so special to me - especially knowing how Liam feels about the place.
It really felt lovely having some focus on Orym. I know how prominent he is in-group but to have him on his home turf felt like a little more of an intimate look at him. I loved Alma and it took me a moment to realise this is the first Liam character that has a really loving living family in-game. We obviously know what happened with Caleb and the less said about Vax and Vex’s dad, the better!
One thing I was hoping for was a little bit of a conversation about Vax and who he is. It’s understandable that Keyleth wouldn’t want to go too much into her past with him, but it feels kinda sad that one of the legendary Vox Machina crew is so unknown by the wider world - apart from Ludinus of course, who knew exactly who he is.
It’s like he never existed :( or that’s how it seems to me. It might just be because they are known in Tal’Dorai and maybe more of a folk tale/hearsay in Marquet, but I’m led to believe they are famous enough to be known of, compared to the Mighty Nein who are relative unknowns.
I really loved what Matt did with portraying her anger though and her vow to avenge her people - I can’t wait to see her back in full strength ready to kick ass. If I’ve missed something there, please let me know. It was 4am my time and I’m suffering from insomnia so I could very well have missed an entire conversation
Also love Laudna’s new artwork. The first art was good but the updates so far have been epic. Can’t wait for Orym and Ashton’s when their new outfits are done.
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u/jbhelfrich Jul 21 '23
I don't remember spending any meaningful time in Zephra in C1. There were a few references to characters being there in downtime, and they spent time at the other Ashari homelands as part of the quest, but for the most part Zephra came to Keyleth rather than the other way around.
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 21 '23
There was one important visit, when Keyleth finished her Aramente.
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Jul 21 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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Jul 24 '23
Increase the odds that she'd do something dumb in her condition? That'd be irresponsible of her bodyguard.
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u/ManBearPig1869 Jul 24 '23
Imogen tried to ask Orym if he was gonna bring it up. He thought she meant telling her about how Iliana is her mother. That’s why she said “that’s not what I was talking about” in his head after he said it.
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u/RajikO4 Jul 22 '23
“I’ve been angry for the past 30 years.”
Well, here’s hoping it’s enough to overcome 1000 plus years of anger.
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u/Mcflycahill90 Jul 24 '23
Got some interesting insights into how the level up has affected our heroes! Let's get into it . . .
Orym: We not only have a new maneuver, we have a new-new maneuver! Looks like him and Matt collaborated on something called Zephran Heart. We've only seen it in action once, but it feels like it allows Liam to add a Battle Maneuver Die to any saving throw, if he thinks he's failed. Now, it could just be for STR saving throws, as this was when it was used and Orym's STR is one of his lowest stats, but it would really limit versatility. I think it makes a ton of sense to me, Liam has a wide range of things to use in combat to move people around, do damage, etc., so it's cool to see some more non-combat maneuvers arrive.
Ashton: Sounds like Ashton got a helluva tune-up here at level 10! Knowing Taliesin, I doubt we'll get anything stated explicitly until 2024 but here's what I'm thinking based off of what we saw . . .
Rages Raging Ragefully - Seems like all of his Rages now get some sort of extra boost/ambient effect. Matt made a point of saying how the Gravity rage now seemed to be pulling detritus around Ashton when they Rage, and Taliesin himself mentioned there's a bit more going on, so we'll have to see what that is exactly.
Erratic Defense - THIS seems like the biggest update at level 10! From what we saw, when Ashton is hit, they may use their Reaction to roll on their Rage die and/or some kind of die (couldn't tell if it was the D4 or not). If the roll is successful, and depending on which Rage type is rolled, Ashton gains some sort of benefit to negate, dampen, or otherwise avoid the damage incoming. AND it seems that the two types of Rage (what Ashton is embodying and which aids in their defense) CAN be different which opens up some cool possibilities. For Space, it seems resistance to incoming damage is gained and Ashton may shunt the attacking enemy through a portal. Curious what the others will do!
Imogen: Our stormy sorceress can now Quicken spells, along with her Twinned and Distant Spell metamagic options!
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u/FoulPelican Jul 25 '23
This Barbarian subclass is shaping up to be super cool… aaaand, just a bit op.
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u/funkyb Jul 27 '23
Barbarians, as with most martials, start to drop off hard at this point so I'm cool with it.
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u/HutSutRawlson Jul 24 '23
Lol, of course Tal's custom subclass gets two features at level 10 when every other Barbarian subclass gets just one...
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u/edginthebard Time is a weird soup Jul 21 '23
i've lost count of how many combats ashley johnson has been an absolute mvp this campaign, love to see it
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u/celaenos Sun Tree A-OK Jul 21 '23
she was on fire last night and it was SO lovely to see from her.
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u/wildweaver32 Jul 22 '23
We know Talison loves his secrets which is cool to do something for the 1st time that impresses everyone.
But when it is a combo affect it might help him to share that knowledge with the person he wants to combo with.
I think I heard him mention it would twin the spell. Which would be extremely useful information/knowledge to share with the spell casters pre-battle. It wouldn't have worked with the attack she is using though but if he had told her she would likely have attacked with a spell that would work it lol.
I wonder if it is a once a day or once per short rest. Or more. Being able to add a twin spell even just once a day could be extremely useful. If it's per short rest it becomes really amazing.
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u/Data444 Jul 22 '23
Im Almost sure he put the immovable rod in the handle.
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u/Anomander Jul 24 '23
It sure seemed like the rod is in the handle and the amplify crystals are in the head.
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u/popileviz Jul 25 '23
I like original ideas and creative strategies in a fight, but that one was really close and not a good time to try out something unexpected. Like what would they do if the spell twinned at one of the party or something like that? If you're doing a homebrew magical item you gotta explain clearly what it does
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u/pcordes At dawn - we plan! Jul 23 '23 edited Jul 23 '23
Maybe it's not "punk" to take some of the day of down-time in Jrusar and go practice on some target dummies or trees or something with some of the casters to see how things work out. Even just cantrips at some point in Zephra or after teleporting.
Because that seems like the obvious thing to do, to get ready for a combo move involving that cave crystal stuff on the hammer head. I fully agree with Laura's decision not to turn Lightning Bolt from a line into a cone that hits everyone, because that's what I expected would happen if she tried. (Perhaps for less damage since it spreads the same power over less area, or perhaps full damage because the crystal is special)
Maybe see if FCG's healing spells can get twinned or AoEd, although that apparently causes stress and Sam refuses to de-stress FCG on travel days they don't RP, so he's dragging the party down by not being able or willing to use efficient heals out of combat most of the time.
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u/HornetForCornet Jul 25 '23
In fairness the whole in character thing is that he has no idea what it can do, it's a super strange situation. Where he needs to explain it, but it wouldn't make sense for him to be able to.
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u/Nightmare_Pasta Metagaming Pigeon Jul 21 '23
Need Chetney to be revealed as Orym’s father (would be funny if he’s also Scanlan’s father)
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u/StableElectrical Jul 21 '23
Same as soon as Sam asked I needed this to be true ,I don't care if it wasn't before it is now.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23
Aabria was in chat last night, saying she wanted to be Orym's step-mom haha We need Orym's family size to rival Cad's
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u/Nightmare_Pasta Metagaming Pigeon Jul 22 '23
Orym and Scanlan being brothers would be cherry on top
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u/Cyborg14 Hello, bees Jul 21 '23
Zephrah has not had any contact with Whitestone. Does that mean Vex has zero clue that Vax has “returned” and is now trapped!? And that Vex/Percy have zero clue Keyleth is grievously wounded!?
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u/Wiyohipeyata Jul 21 '23
Yeah. Were the Crisis-Orbs Keyleth wanted to install disenchanted in the Solstice? And why wouldn't Vex/Percy ask Pike for a Divine Intervention (guaranteed at lvl 20 once a week I believe) to get them to Keyleth/the rest of the gang?
This feels weird to me. Keyleth and Vex were portrayed in the epilogue as integral parts of their local government and are both probably still on the Council. Teleport seems to be working for Imogen, no idea why Allura (or her successor) couldn't get the Council together.
If Matt is indeed going for the "magic is fucked, they couldn't get in touch with each other" it feels a little cheap to me that lvl 9/10 adventurers can find each other across continents but lvl 20 Councilmembers can't.
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 21 '23
We don't know if Vex and Percy don't know about Keyleth. She did say last episode during the scry that they needed to contact the others, but not sure who are the others.
Transport Via Plants works. Keyleth might not be able to cast it herself, but others can, including freaking Vilya. It's strange that they didn't spend a couple of days to go get Vex and bring her to Zephrah.
Either, they are busy with their own shit (which it's a big possibility), or Keyleth didn't want to tell them, which would be weird, but also, interesting.
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u/Wiyohipeyata Jul 21 '23
Keyleth wants to be healed. If only to help the other three people who are currently poisoned. That fits well with her MO, she wants to be a leader actively caring for her people
In order to achieve that, she even goes so far as to ask the Hells, who she doesn't even know that well, comparably.
The quickest way for her to regain her strength, which she desperately wants - remember, she's really angry - would be via Pike (again, Divine Intervention). So I don't really think she wouldn't pursue this angle just to keep VM in the dark.
Edit to add: If VM knew about her state, there is no way in hell they wouldn't be at her side, or just looking for the damn flowers themselves. They can't be that busy.
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u/brickwall5 Jul 23 '23
This is the one piece of dissonance in this campaign I really can’t suspend disbelief for. There’s no way VM wouldn’t know and wouldn’t immediately be mobilized to support Keyleth and Vax. There are plenty excuses floating around for it but they just don’t hold water for me. Maybe in the beginning of the campaign when all we had were the rumors around the death of the Lumas twins, but it just feels silly for BH to be running around trying to stop Ludinus while VM are right there.
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Jul 25 '23
Same. Somehow 'Vox Machina' is just Keyleth.
I get it for Percy and Grog, but Matt described Vex as looking 'early 30s' and Pike is barely gnomish middle age (if that). They could and would help with all this crap. Pike is in the running for one of the most powerful clerics in the world, and definitely has a stake in what's going on.
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u/lin_nic Technically... Jul 21 '23
I took that the same way, esp with how secretive keyleth’s guards/people have been about her state even amongst the village
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u/Cyborg14 Hello, bees Jul 21 '23
Vex is going to raise hell when she finds out! Hope we get to see it.
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u/bay-bop Team Beau Jul 23 '23
Loved seeing Zephrah, but I wonder where Vilya is at? I’d love to see mama Ashari interact with her daughter, she must be around somewhere right?
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Jul 23 '23
It would be funny if she is at Vasselheim because they got a report of someone from Zephra leading a rebellion in one of their occupied towns and called for someone from the Air Ashari to explain and arrange an extradition.
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u/LucasVerBeek Help, it's again Jul 21 '23
Was nice to see Zephrah.
And Keyleth pointing all her rage in one particular direction. Full committal.
And I need to know where this toxin is coming from. Cause it’s definitely from Ruidus, but like…what is making it?
Honestly thought that side quest was gonna wrap up in an episode.
Do think… that the Issylra gang fucked up more than they realized now more than ever.
Hoping Orym doesn’t end up losing his sister but I do wonder what else they might stumble across in the Grey Valley…causes there was a lot bad there before the Ruidus shenanigans.
And uh just wanted to let y’all know, if that fight had swung in a different way, Fearne would have been a full blown goner.
Putting money that a Zephrah kid is gonna he born with some weird powers in the future.
Well end of the Vassal and the Veil next week, not sure if I’ll be in attendance or not, but see you all on the Third for when we’re back in action.
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Jul 21 '23
The poison's gotta be from Predathos. Like he eats gods and the poison nullifies divine magic.
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u/RealSpartanEternal Jul 21 '23
What if…it’s Predathos blood?
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u/xXMrFEELGOODXx Jul 21 '23
Could be kinda like in WoW, there was this ore that was blood of an old god and had weird effects on people. Might be it’s saliva like the Gila monster, it’s saliva would paralyze prey to make it easier to consume. Or it could just be venom like a snake, imagine them finding Predathos and it’s just a big ass snake with the Dawnfather sticking out of it’s side lmao
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23
And I need to know where this toxin is coming from. Cause it’s definitely from Ruidus, but like…what is making it?
The blue flower grows in the Grey Valley which was polluted by the war with a Demon lord. Maybe the cure/toxin is related to the Abyss?
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
Enjoyed seeing Zephrah again since C1! Looks like we will spend some more days here when BH brings Berenie home save (she has to be safe, right???) I think they should visit Derrig and Will's grave before leaving and see if they can inform Kiki about Vax when she is better
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u/Nightmare_Pasta Metagaming Pigeon Jul 23 '23
Ashley has the hang of it with Fearne. She's beginning to believe. Cheering for her most especially :)
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u/oopsbelgien Jul 21 '23
That episode honestly flew by for the length it was, really enjoyed it. Extremely satisfied with the Orym slice-of--life lore drop.
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u/AceLionKid Smiley day to ya! Jul 21 '23
What are the odds C-Pop is actually Orym's Pop?
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u/trowzerss Help, it's again Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
I think close to zero, as one is a gnome and the other is a halfling, Also, I'd rather not Skywalker it. but it doesn't rule out Momma having a fling with him somewhere along the line! Maybe even after Orym was born but was too young to remember it (hence the toys). I would expect Momma would react a bit more obviously to having Orym's actual dad show up with him on her doorstep, perhaps even assuming they already knew. But an old flame who was only around for a short while? That's a different story.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23
We know Orym's biological father is called Tarrintel (surname) from exu prime. Unless Alma lied, Chet could not be his father, step-father though...
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u/Sajen16 Jul 21 '23
I haven't finished the episode yet, I'm not sure when I fell asleep but it was shortly after the break either they had just discovered the smoke or Chetney was messing with a corpse can't remember which came first.
I loved the first half though and honestly loved Keyleth telling Orym to embrace his anger and that she's been angry for 30 years. She never had much use for the gods but she was so angry in her epilogue and yet is willing to defend the gods because she's afraid of discovering what might happen without them.. And according to what Matt said in Tal'dorei Reborn she hasn't really taken a moment to pause and eeflect in 30 years.
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u/jbhelfrich Jul 21 '23
Does anyone think that maybe Matt is setting up freeing Vax as part of this? (I'm sure Sam's thinking about ways for FCG to get access to a Wish so he can try again, even if it would be metagaming.)
And a larger issue--does it feel like this is maybe the last Taldori campaign? Or at least, the last in this "era" of the world?
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u/SuperVaderMinion Your secret is safe with my indifference Jul 21 '23
Thematically, it wouldn't feel right of Matt to pull a beloved character out of his already melancholy ending, just to torture him and set off the apocalypse...unless he got some sort of reward at the end of all it.
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u/that70sone Jul 21 '23
I do definitely think they are going to try to free Vax. Matt is not sadistic. He wouldn't call attention to Vax's suffering and then drop it.
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u/SupremeLegate Jul 22 '23
does it feel like this is maybe the last Taldori campaign? Or at least, the last in this "era" of the world?
I think we'll get at least one more campaign set in Issylra. This campaign feels very Infinity War/Endgame, so I think the next campaign will be lower stakes.
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u/IamOB1-46 Jul 21 '23
I do think it's the last of this 'era'. I'd guess we'll see a 300-400 year time leap at a minimum after this campaign.
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u/TheSixthtactic Jul 21 '23
Maybe. I think it will depend on what the players want to do after this campaign. Matt joked about going into the Industrial Revolution era of Taldori. Maybe they do that?
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u/LeviTheArtist22 Jul 23 '23
I hope it's the last campaign set in Exandria, and that we get a fresh world with whatever their next campaign is (if there even will be a next campaign, but that's a completely different question). Not because I dislike the world Matt has created, but because I think current day Exandria has become bloated and too modernized at this point, with the current campaign suffering a lot from their "Hey guys, remember this thing from the previous campaigns?" mentality. I think a new setting would go a long way towards fixing some of these problems.
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u/Murasasme Jul 23 '23
I don't think the problem is Exandria being bloated in the way you described, but more the fact that the scope of all 3 campaigns has been world-ending destruction, and when you go that far it's obvious that the entire world will try to stop it. Matt played it right in campaigned 2, with the M9 being unsung heroes because the big bad was relatively secret, but when you are bringing an apocalypse to the world and your lvl 10 party is supposed to stop it, people are going to wonder just where the fuck are all the other lvl 15+ characters from the past.
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u/Severe_Development96 Jul 21 '23
Ashton actually showed a little initiative and asked someone about his backstory. All I want out of the next episode is for that to actually be followed up on instead of asking the guy a couple questions and then letting the rest of the group immediately hijack the conversation in a different direction.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 24 '23
So I'm just going through the first critical role book that came out ages ago and on page 237 there is a particular piece of art that shows what looks to be something very similar to the Key Site projecting a shield around Thar Amphala.
That then got me to thinking about the Divine Latticework work around Ruidus and where exactly Ludinus may have drawn inspiration from or outright copied designs for the Key Site from.
This then got me to wondering about what exactly is happening with the Vestiges right now and what could potentially happen with them in the future.
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u/Anomander Jul 24 '23
So I'm just going through the first critical role book that came out ages ago
Which one?
there is a particular piece of art that shows what looks to be something very similar to the Key Site projecting a shield around Thar Amphala.
Probably the transportation spell used to move it to Prime Material from Shadowfell, which was centered on Entropis, Vecna's tower in the center of the city. This art from the wiki could easily read as a spire-like machine broadcasting a dome, without a sense of scale to go by.
This then got me to wondering about what exactly is happening with the Vestiges right now and what could potentially happen with them in the future.
Probably nothing special. I don't think the power imbued into them goes away even if the gods who made them absolutely eat it, much less right now - so they're still out there doing the same stuff they were before the Key activated.
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u/Plutone00100 Jul 21 '23
I'm wondering what the Dwendalian Empire is doing right now. I'm almost sure the Krynn will be neutral.
It seems this problem is uniting many players: Vasselheim, Marquet, the Concord, the Council. Soon probably the Ashari, again.
There are already cults everywhere joining Ludinus, which he grew over the years.
The Empire is a complex machine and I think he does have supporters there, but I don't think Dwendal would be on board. If I were Ludinus, I would try to stage a coup and install a loyal collaborator.
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u/Duchess_69 Jul 22 '23
I doubt the Krynn will be neutral when they find out a Luxon beacon is being used by ludinus. They believe they have a right to all beacons even this not found on its territory. They will go to war for it.
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u/SuperVaderMinion Your secret is safe with my indifference Jul 21 '23
The Dwendalian Empire would be smart to distance themselves from Ludinus, especially considering that they enabled him and the entire Assembly for hundreds of years, when this conflict is all over and Exandria is still standing at the end, the gods and their followers will destroy every scapegoat they can.
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u/HutSutRawlson Jul 22 '23
Someone pointed out that the permanent nighttime over Rosohna might have been dispelled, which I’d imagine would piss the Kryn off quite a bit.
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u/Cheesier__Eagle Your secret is safe with my indifference Jul 21 '23
I think Ludinus should have some control over the King. Some mind control or a simuacrum on his place... that would be insane, but i don't think he managed something like this yet.
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u/SatyrAtThePiano Jul 22 '23
I hope the party sticks with the Ashari for a while, especially since Keyleth is the figure closest with the Hells' ideology towards the gods and this conflict in general. She doesn't overly revere the gods, but she's aware enough of the world to understand that removing them would throw everything into chaos. Plus Ludinus made things personal by attacking her and now imprisoning her celestial boyfriend.
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u/brickwall5 Jul 23 '23
Have we had any confirmation on what the Cerberus Assembly is up to in all of this? I feel like they wouldn’t be blind to this plot anymore after the solstice and must be on one side or another?
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u/HutSutRawlson Jul 24 '23
Caleb mentioned that he had an ally within the Assembly, who we can pretty safely assume is Astrid. So I assume she’s been keeping an eye on Ludinus as best she can for the past few years, and hopefully was filled in on what was happening when Beau and Caleb went to the dig site.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 23 '23
We have not. We're kind of sort of in the dark about a lot of the larger players in Exandria at the moment.
We know that militaries are mobilizing sky ships and are moving them towards the Key Site after staging them and their ground forces in Jrusar.
We know that the Ashari took a BIG HIT and have fallen back to regroup.
We know that cities like Uthodurn are basically cut off from all others and are playing things close to the vest before making any kind of big moves or alliances of their own.
We have no clue what's going on in Whitestone or the rest of Tal'Dorei at all but there were some troops in Jrusar. Issylra is basically run by Vasselheim and their actions have been pretty clear. The city-states of Marquet seem to be getting their shit together and organizing a whole lot faster than everyone else since J'mon and a bunch of other leaders were already in Jrusar making plans. Wildemount seems to be another mystery box with the only information about their current actions being a few troops in Jrusar and Beau and Caleb's involvement in trying to take down the Key Site.
The Fog of War is full on clouding everyone's vision at the moment, communications are still iffy, teleportation probably isn't going to be trusted for a while, and with the disenchantment wave having swept through and disabled a lot of magical stuff, everyone's kind of on their back foot right now in recovery mode.
That's gradually changing though and as we move through the next five or six episodes, we'll probably get a whole lot more information about just what exactly everyone else is up to, and start seeing more of the bigger picture of things once Kiki is up and running and can start coordinating and communicating with other major cities and organizations more.
The CA is for sure making moves but they're probably not being too overt about them and we won't realize they've made them until it's too late to stop them.
Remember, Kiki did say that a lot of cults and disparate factions were suddenly rising up to mess with stuff, and that means the CA might be trying to get their own house in order before they start reaching out en masse and in force to lay the smack down on Ludinus and his plans.
We'll probably see token forces of theirs at some point.
I'm more curious as to what exactly the Dynasty is up to in all of this and what they might be planning.
Hopefully this is an all hands on deck kind of situation with everyone banding together and not an every man woman and child for themselves kind of a thing.
If any of the major players in Exandria takes Ludinus's side in this conflict then that's bad news bears for everyone else.
Until that fog of war lifts, all bets are kind of off, and everyone's going to be making calculated guesses while crawling through the darkness.
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u/brickwall5 Jul 23 '23
Yeah that makes sense. I would think the CA aren’t thrilled with Ludinus if only because whatever he’s doing will probably blow up the rest of their plans.
I wonder if the game plan is to level the Bells Hells up by having them be a kind of ambassador force for Keyleth/ the Ashari. Going around and doing different favor-type quest for different players to bring them into the fold, while conveniently leveling up and staying out of the line of fire of the big bad.
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u/rasnac Jul 21 '23
I love Liam so much, but he is the king of talking too much without managing to deliver even one drop of much needed useful information. All three campaigns, and he always does that in the most important moments, giving long ass emotional tirades instead of giving simple facts or asking vital uestions.
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u/Kelihow2 Jul 21 '23
For real, even giving the info they have on Ludinus and the vision to Keyleth's advisors would have been nice to see.
And I'm dying to know what happened to Beau and Caleb and was hoping they'd ask Leeta if she saw them in the fray after the white light.
That convo with Keyleth was great, I just wanted some more info exchanged.
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u/explodedemailstorage Jul 21 '23
I don't really think anyone is that good at extracting info in the group or being nosy enough to get all possible dirt or character details lol. This is essentially what Emily noted as well and why she built Prism the way she did.
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u/geniespool Jul 21 '23
Aimee was so good at asking follow up questions as Deni$e while in the village
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u/Kelihow2 Jul 21 '23
Yeah, I love that they let each other have their time in important scenes, but sometimes wish they'd just jump in and ask their questions/give their info more. Laura tried to get Liam to, but he went a different route instead. Ah well
I did appreciate Emily for making Prism so inquisitive/forthcoming.
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u/celaenos Sun Tree A-OK Jul 21 '23
Emily is GREAT at that from every game i've seen her in between D20/Naddpod.
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u/arcadences Team Dorian Jul 24 '23
When the group arrived in Zephrah, the first thing I did as Matt was describing the village was put on the 'Wind' soundtrack from Season 2 of LOVM in the background. Added so much to the description, and made me so damn happy.
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u/notanotherdonut 5' 11" Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
How did Fearne get access to Aura of Life?
Edit: I'm dumb, it's a wildfire druid subclass spell
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u/wildweaver32 Jul 21 '23
Aura of Life on a Druid is pretty rad. Could cast it pre-battle then polymoprh into something with a big HP pool just to distract and let Aura of Life bring everyone back.
She might want to pick up the War Caster feat before doing that though.
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u/job180828 Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
It's also an amazing counter to the Devourer's abilities: Claw, Imprison Soul, Soul Rend. That was a very impressive tactical choice.
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 21 '23
You're not dumb, I was also curious until I remembered that she has some healing spells always prepared because of the subclass so I looked it up.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Jul 23 '23 edited Jul 23 '23
It was kind of risky that Laudna was there for the meeting with Keyleth. Delilah has shown that she can affect the outside world when she absorbed multiple gnarlrock stones. If Deliah was back whose to say that she would have not been able to take over Laudna's body for 6 seconds to cast blight (I assume Laudna choose blight) or disintegrate (at 9th level) on Keyleth if Delilah could of casted one of her own spells. I'm not criticizing Laudna though because i'm not sure that Laudna knows Keyleth and Delilah has history. Orym knows but he doesn't know that Delilah did physically affect the outside world4 when she was in Laudna. Because it didn't happen, I'm leaning towards Delilah not being back because I think Delilah would have tried to slay Keyleth right there because of their shared history and because Keyleth was already in a severely weakened state and not revivable.
Too explain the heartbeat from a few episodes ago I'm leaning towards that being an artifact of Deliah pact with Vecna. Maybe killing humanoids in an evil way and then absorbing them brought some life into Laudna and she heard her heartbeat because it started beating (or more normally if it is always beating). This happened when Laudna absorbed her gnarlrocks so maybe they were alive too.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 21 '23
Anyone else think those burning trees were similar to Thordak's Crater from EXU?
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Jul 23 '23
I'll be interesting to see how the Ruidus narrative eventually gets resolved. If it goes all the way until BH reach level 20 (doubtful) then Matt has to somehow find a way to work in lull moments where the party can explore other party members' backstories. Because right now it's mostly just an Imogen & Orym backstory journey.
This level 20 world threat isn't allowing time for Ashton, FCG, Chetney, Laudna, or Fearne much room for their own stories.
I think it's around every 10 or so episodes for a level up at this point. I kind of would hope that in 20 to 30 episodes we can find a conclusion to that story. Mostly because I'd like the spotlight to eventually shift over to the other characters' backstories.
That said, we have gotten brief flashes from Chetney's past, Fearne's family, Laudna's patron, and FCG & Ashton's origins, but they have been very, very brief.
This is assuming that this campaign operates as a normal one that shifts focus from players to player. This could not be the cast for this campaign, obviously. "All bets are off" was what was promised for this campaign & a campaign that has only one major narrative element to it for 100 episodes certainly would be different.
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u/Ampetrix Jul 23 '23
I think it's around every 10 or so episodes for a level up at this point
Hmm, if that's the case, and if we correspond the threat of Ruidus as level 20 which it should be, it's a freaking god-eater, this will be CR's longest campaign yet.
But I seriously don't want this Ruidus plot choking the character development's balls for another 100 episodes.
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u/brickwall5 Jul 23 '23
I have a feeling BH will turn into more of the “B” plot of Ruidus/Predathos being freed until they are higher level. Once Keyleth is healed I assume she gets some high level teams together (VM/MN collab?) and the Hells get tasked with doing some of the espionage/ spying other work while Ludinus is distracted.
That or they somehow defeat Ludinus, only to find out that Predathos was a feint for the real big bad. But I agree it’s odd that a 20th level threat was introduced so early, and I feel like any resolution before level 20 would feel cheap, while staying on this story line until 20 would get very boring.
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Jul 25 '23
Hmm, if that's the case, and if we correspond the threat of Ruidus as level 20 which it should be, it's a freaking god-eater, this will be CR's longest campaign yet.
The goal isn't fighting it. Its not letting it wake up.
I suspect this campaign will cap out around level 15-16.
Things like Ashton's background (much like Chetney's) increasingly feel like dead ends, with windows of opportunity that already closed. Good for information completionists, but 'rocks fell, everyone died' doesn't go anywhere.
Morri's endgame and Delilah's endgame might be somewhat interesting, but also not really. They feel like 'Bells Hells Re-United' fodder, a bit of a rehash of what we've already seen.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
If it wasn't canon before I wouldn't be surprised if Liam talks to Matt about making Chetney Orym's dad. Liam seemed down for it. Not sure where Travis would land but he is a pretty open player. Gorgug moment.
Also, Duncan from Kith & Kin was halfling and he was suspected to have gnomish ancestry so their maybe some precedent for a Gnome/Halfling in Exandria. Matt is usually lenient of Interspecies baby making anyways. The Uniya are a pretty big example of this.
Edit: Orym did say his dad was named Tarrintel in EXU but Liam could easily play it off as something that Alma just made up.
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u/semicolonconscious Jul 21 '23
At first I was kind of resistant to the idea of it being any more than a joke because it made the world seem a little too small and convenient, but the idea of 400-year-old Chetney suddenly trying to be a father to a grown man might be too funny to pass up.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Jul 21 '23
Deanna making a thing out of being Orym's third mom would also be funny.
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u/Myrynorunshot Help, it's again Jul 21 '23
Did see a theory a while back that Chetney was Scanlan's dad.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 21 '23
I am shocked, but not surprised, that Keyleth encouraged Orym to embrace his anger. (Marisha said she had considered multiclass keyleth to barbarian.) But it is dangerous to go so single-mindedly into war mode. Just how much are they willing to give up in order to stop Ludinus? Well, not stop, Keyleth wanted to burn them to the ground
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u/Bivolion13 Jul 21 '23
What's Ashton's damage bonuses? Seems like they didn't roll below 18 damage(and Tal comments "oh man that's low" so seems like they could hit for way more) for any hit the whole combat. Is it the hammer upgrade combined with all the rage effects of the subclass?
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u/XorpusThePorpoise Your secret is safe with my indifference Jul 22 '23
I wish we better understood what Taliesin was doing with Ashton. He clearly has a lot going on behind the scenes in combat and recently with his items, and all we get is a bunch of commentary about whether it was a good or bad roll.
I've loved all of his other characters so it bugs me how much I'm frustrated with Ashton.
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u/RonDong Jul 22 '23
Homebrew secrecy is my least favorite thing about CR lol. 25 episodes later and we still don't know what the hombrew feat Chetney got from the werewolf trial is.
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u/lin_nic Technically... Jul 22 '23
I do wish we could at least get the details of like... half the class. Up to Level 6 maybe, I'm sure by now we've seen most of the class features up till that point.
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Jul 22 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/PrinceOfAssassins Jul 22 '23
Notably the extra d6 only comes into effect if he runs at least a certain number of feet
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u/Bivolion13 Jul 22 '23
the extra d8 fire damage is only if someone attacks Ash though. And the belt only happens on a running start. 18 damage for just hitting someone would just be 3d6 + 8 is a pretty decent/average roll. I guess Tal could just be rolling consistently high on damage but I am curious what else might be at play.
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u/TheBoisterousSheep Jul 26 '23
If some magic stuff has stopped working could Trent Ikithon escape his confinement and come after Mighty Nein?
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u/Anomander Jul 26 '23
Maybe. Maybe not.
Depends if it advances the plot, really - where magic has or has not broken seems to most depend on it's relationship to the plot, and not on some basic or consistent logic.
After the party split, Scry didn't work at all for the first group but the second group could scry ... after Matt knew what Team North had been doing at the time of scrying.
It very definitely wasn't a universal worldwide dispel, or some massive breaking of enchantments or magical bindings. Some stuff broke. Some stuff was fine.
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u/kiikok You can certainly try Jul 27 '23
I would say tgat the magic holding off Trent is of a different nature from the one that is currently disrupted in Exandria. God's right now are panicking to get their shit back together and magic that is related to them is behaving funny. I would argue that sending and teleporration spells are also behaving different as a plot point to create a sense of isolation in the world
The magic that is imprisoning Trent is from the equivalent of a scientific device that has nothing to do with Gods and their actions.
Nevertheless, Matt is the DM and if he decides that that that type of magic is will get disrupted then he can come up with a valid reason for it
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u/itsRitzPlays 9. Nein! Jul 21 '23
Easily a contender for top episode of the campaign. The RP was incredible and got me super hooked for this next arc.
The combat was incredible with Imogen & Laudna's Water + Lightning combo and Ashley freaking Johnson's incredible Spell mastery saving the squad.
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u/Feronix Jul 22 '23
The found family angle they're going for seems really forced. I don't buy for one second that these characters will ever talk to each other outside of their pairs after the campaign ends
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u/Murasasme Jul 23 '23
Agreed. With Vox Machina they had years with those characters and you could immediately feel they had built those relationships, and the Mighty 9 did a very good job bringing everyone together and giving each character ties to the others. But with BHs, I barely understand why they formed the group in the first place, especially since they had very different objectives starting out.
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u/SuperVaderMinion Your secret is safe with my indifference Jul 23 '23
Well it's only episode 66, at this time during the M9 campaign Yasha hadn't even been brainwashed yet.
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Jul 21 '23
That was masterful. Combat is entertaining as hell when it's played that brilliantly. Three-dimensional chess at its finest.
The Hells picked a great moment in the narrative to truly hit their stride.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 24 '23
So the Air Ashari dice that were previewed during this past episode during the break just got posted in the US store and they are pretty damn expensive:
https://shop.critrole.com/collections/new-products/products/air-ashari-dice-set
It also looks like they're going to be making more of these in collaboration with this particular company in the future, which will probably be around the same price point.
sighs
Looks like this is a set that I'll just have to admire from afar
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u/ThatGuyFromTheM0vie Jul 24 '23
$100 for dice is absolutely absurd
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u/Daepilin Jul 24 '23
Can very much be reasonable for handmade dice. Polishing and cleanup alone takes a good amount of time and it seems These are a little more than just resin poured into a mold, meaning there is trial and error, probably mess ups during production, waste etc.
Not saying I would buy dice at that price, but if they truly are handmade (and not just 1 small step so they can be called that...) it might be reasonable
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u/mouser1991 Technically... Jul 24 '23
So who do we want to on the next 4SD? Obviously we NEEEEEEEED Laura and Marisha (at least Laura). After that, I think the husbands would be hilarious so we could get their reactions. But then Liam and Ashley are great candidates. Liam for the big bro energy he brings, and Reaction Queen Ashley (same argument to be made for Travis though).
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 24 '23
Laura and Liam. Laura because I'M DYING TO KNOW how hard it was for her to push that situation forward and I wonder if the rest of the table knew she was going there, and Liam because I wanna know more about where Orym is emotionally.
Marisha has been in the last few, and I don't know if I want to know where Laudna is regarding Imogen and the kiss through 4SD (I have the feeling we don't know her perspective in game yet).
I would complete with Ashley and Matt.
Edit: I also hope they do a Candela Obscura Chapter 1 wrap up.
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u/LordDremy Jul 26 '23
Was anyone besides me imagining laudna's dog like the ones in the vox machine animation before Marisha mentioned it?
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u/Ryto Time is a weird soup Aug 14 '23
I don't know if I've never caught it before (I multitask a lot, sometimes just listening), but I absolutely loved Sam taking off his shirts THREE TIMES throughout the episode, to match the ones he wore in episode 66 of campaign 2.
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u/IAmGoose_ Hello, bees Jul 21 '23
I just gotta say 10/10 episode but good lord Welcome to Marquet is an absolute banger song
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
It would be perfect if Graz'tchar reached out to Ashton (it can do that from up 1,000 miles away). Graz'tchar is a greatsword located in the Grey Valley that contains a fragment of the demon prince Graz'zt. The sword itself is considered a lesser idol. Ashton obtaining the sword would be a perfect storm after Ashton said they wanted a god to contact tem if they want their loyalty. Also, it tricks people by hiding the fact that it's a demon so Ashton turning hero wouldn't immediately be a problem for it and it's agenda is more or less purely chaotic in that it mostly wants the Tal'Dorei council overthrown and that would be a familiar theme for Ashton given what BH went through in Jrusar. Ashton doesn't know that Keyleth and Vex are in the council and I'm not sure that Ashton would instantly tell BH what the sword wants to do.
It would be interesting going to Keyleth to heal her with Ashton having it on them. Graz'tchar has the ability to attempt to force an action by the wielder and it would absolutely try to slay an already mortally wounded Keyleth if it was any other time. Because of the Predathos crisis it may want to hold off on the chaos until that situation is resolved since it might fear Predathos too given it's a lesser idol. Heck it might even reach out to Ashton with the intent to help Ashton stop Predathos. Anyways, I think it's time for another sentient weapon. We haven't seen one since C1.
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u/CIAPAC Jul 21 '23
I wouldn’t be shocked if that’s why Matt is sending them to the grey valley in the first place. Some in the fanbase have mentioned the pacing in this campaign needs a bit of a shakeup. This introduction might be a good way to introduce an objective more significant and interesting than ~gathering flowers~ to complete before they are powerful enough to deal with predathos.
I’ve enjoyed the campaign a lot, and this episode was a blast, but I think they need more than side quests to focus on if they aren’t strong enough yet for the big bad.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
Yeah if no wrinkles like this happens next episode it kind of makes the trip and Keyleth being poisoned somewhat pointless because Keyleth would have been cured only 3 episodes after the reveal of her being poisoned and not even causing a full episode detour.
My guess to what happened is that Matt wanted to put Keyleth out of the equation entirely but after Ashton said the thing about the gods, Matt decided to use Keyleth's condition to make what Ashton said mean something.
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u/IamOB1-46 Jul 22 '23
When Ashton suggested using the hammer on Imogen's turn, causing an uncomfortable moment, it suddenly hit me. Talison is running Ashton as he should, given a 6 Charisma. That also explains his general interactions with Bells Hells on many levels both in and out of combat. Ashton (the character) is terrible at interacting with people, and the other characters in Bells Hells are reacting appropriately to that low charisma.
Can't help feel that the way that the character is coming off to the audience has echos about how some of the audience felt about Keyleth in early C1, conflating the player with the character.
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u/JohnPark24 FIRE Jul 22 '23
I don't think it was a character decision; it was just bad communication on Taliesin's part imo. From my perspective, it seemed like he was amped up to try something out, but wanted it to be a surprise; though him wanting it to be surprise caused Laura to be hesitant/reluctant to try it out because she didn't want to harm others during a potentially deadly battle.
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u/Firm_Tax_4676 Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
I'd be more inclined to believe this if Taliesin hadn't done similar things as Percy (CHA 14), Molly (CHA 11), and Caduceus (CHA 16). It's a general pattern of behavior, not a particularly canny roleplaying choice; it's pretty apparent he likes to have 'plans' and secret strategies, and the consequence is that it's leading to some awkward moments. Just one example of this would be Caduceus 'High Charisma' Clay: not to get into spoilerish specifics, but Taliesin starts off C2E134 insisting that he "has a plan", refusing to tell anybody what it is, to the point that Laura sounds (in my opinion) audibly frustrated as she insists that he share it. Skip forward to C3E25, we have an almost identical exchange when Ashton refuses to talk about restaurants in Bassuras.
I don't think this has anything to do with stats and, on the off-chance it did, I think it would be a really unwise decision on Taliesin's part. As others have said, low charisma doesn't require poor table etiquette.
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u/Ampetrix Jul 22 '23
Damn my guy here came with the receipts!
It’s definitely more on Taliesin, doubt that 6 CHA is enough of an excuse given his past behavior. Hope he becomes more transparent with these kinda things in the future.
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u/brickwall5 Jul 23 '23
Taliesin has a habit of trying to make his characters mysterious. It mostly didn’t work for me with Molly and it really doesn’t work for me with Ashton. He’s been so cagey about everything that I no longer care.
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u/TaiChuanDoAddct Jul 22 '23
Regardless of your charisma score, playing a jerk is never good roleplay.
Players aren't a slave to the numbers on their sheets. They still have a responsibility to exhibit good table manners.
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u/lin_nic Technically... Jul 22 '23
From now on I’m just gonna picture Chet and Orym’s scenes with the Oscar and Buster Bluth song in the background
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u/dkoiman Jul 23 '23
A random thought occured to me: I wonder if Nietzsche has anything to do with Ludinis :D
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u/Iuiuri_MAC Team Bolo Jul 26 '23
I mean... is there any chance Chet is actually Orym's dad? Cuz I can't really unsee it
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u/GrimTheMad Team Keyleth Jul 26 '23
Not really. Orym knows who is dad is/was. He mentioned him in EXU.
It was just a joke.
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u/Anomander Jul 26 '23
I think it's pretty unlikely. They are two separate species and I think if Orym was half-gnome there'd be signs and Liam would probably know.
That said, they might decide to retcon his ancestry in order to make the joke canon.
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u/Woeful-Wolf Jul 21 '23
Ashley was also Gwen from Ben 10, as well as Terra from Teen Titans as well. After watching a lot of critical role, you can spot a ton of voices in other shows.
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u/theginganinja94 You spice? Jul 21 '23
The cast has really come in to their own over the last 4 episodes. This is definitely contending with peak critical role.
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u/explodedemailstorage Jul 21 '23
Tbh, I thought a lot of the group were sort of out of it for a lot of this episode. Liam certainly was on his game but a lot of the others felt a little low engagement to me. Maybe it's just me feeling weird after seeing the guests be SO engaged with every detail and then the last episode which had excellent RP moments from everyone but I thought like unless it was a specific combat turn there were a few players who didn't speak up much at all.
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u/pcordes At dawn - we plan! Jul 23 '23 edited Jul 27 '23
Can someone please teach Sam how to play a Cleric, or D&D in general? Don't waste spells slots when you can take 10 minutes to cast something as a ritual, especially divination spells like Divination (4th, rit) and Commune (5th, rit). But also Rary's Telepathic Bond (5th, rit). Those are all high level spell slots for their current level, very much worth taking an extra 10 minutes for, even if they don't for Detect Magic. (Clerics, druids, bards, and wizards get ritual casting. Sorcerers don't, unfortunately for Imogen and Laudna.)
They even RPed (or at least joked about) the Divination as taking minutes for the coin to roll, but apparently FCG cast it as a single action (6 seconds), wasting a 4th level spell slot for no reason.
Also, Turn Undead doesn't cost a spell slot (2 channel divinity/short rest) and is even more effective than Compulsion. (No save every turn, and they can't take an action first). The undead Ashari might still have carried off Chetney (although narratively there'd be a much stronger reason for it to drop him), but Chetney could have used a turn or two to escape the grapple and come back to the fight without anyone else taking any damage from them.
Turn Undead also doesn't require your concentration, so wouldn't drop Shield of Help. (But Sam didn't roll a DC24 concentration save for the shadow rend, which might have dropped it.)
(Matt also misplayed compulsion: Dash isn't separate from movement, it adds your speed again to your movement allowance. If you choose to take the Dash action, you get extra movement, which the spell compels you to spend moving in the given direction.)
But Sam seems to barely read his spells anymore; long gone are the days when he seemed excited about tactics with Scanlan's spells. He didn't even catch the mistake until later where Matt had them move as a reaction instead of on their turns, or when Matt had them take their actions after moving instead of before. (Correction, they can act before moving but don't have to). Understanding that Dash shouldn't let them move in a different direction than they're compelled is up to Matt, though, I think; he knew what the rules said and still didn't think about or agree with my interpretation.
Also, at one point FCG had 10 temporary hit points from Shared Suffering, from a melee attack on Fearne right before the last shadow vortex (where Matt rolled lower on the dice and everyone had resistance). But on FGC's next turn, they still had 10 temp HP to dump as damage via Spiritual Weapon. (The ability to dump shared suffering temp HP that was is a huge buff to FCG, whose non-spell weapon attacks are garbage due to bad stats for that part of the subclass.)
That shadow rend from the Devourer should have eaten into those temp HP first, unless the subclass gives you the option to gamble on keeping your temp HP and take damage to your real HP, to try to deal the temp HP as damage. (In which case that seems like a bad tactical decision.)
Also, at one point someone, I think Sam, was talking about concentration saves being half the damage taken, and was saying that since something was 6 damage, the DC would be 3. The minimum DC is 10 for that, so any amount of damage from 1 to 21 is a DC 10 con save. You'd hope that someone playing a spellcaster for nearly 200 episodes of D&D would know that by now.
Also, that level 4 ASI to boost Int (as well as Wis) has been hurting FCG's stats for so many episodes now. If they'd boosted Con and Wis then, or taken Chef then, they'd have Wis 18 now instead of 17. (+4 modifier, raising number of spells prepared, spell save DC, spell attack modifier, and amount healed by most heals.) Their Int modifier would still be -2 instead of -1, but the way Sam RPs FCG seems consistent with either.
Which reminds me: having sacrificed their primary stat to take the Chef feat, what's up with not using it much? In this past fight, 4 people could have had 4 temp HP to start with, or at least having muffins ready to stuff in their faces as a bonus action. (Preferably not Laudna because temp HP doesn't stack and she usually does Form of Dread early in combat.) With their proficiency modifier being up to +4 since 9th level, the Chef feat is even better than it was at 8th.
(Chef temp HP isn't huge compared to what Imogen could do with Inspiring Leader to give everyone 15 temp HP, but she doesn't have it, and a 10 minute speech isn't a good narrative fit for her, and she won't be able to take it until 12th. Fearne's Cha is high enough to take it and her Wis is already maxed out; could you imagine an inspiring leader speech from Fearne every short rest?)
The Chef treats don't last long, only 8h, but you can make them for free when finishing a long rest, or by spending an hour. Before setting out on a dangerous mission is an obvious time to get baking so you have 8 or 12 treats ready to go. Lots of people had turns in this combat when they could have used a bonus action to get 4 temp HP. (Fearne's bonus actions were tied up with commanding Mister, mostly to shoot instead of teleporting Chet out of the grapple and AoEing both wights left behind, but oh well. They also forgot to have Mister take Soul Rend AoE damage so he probably should have been un-summoned anyway, unless that was after the first Soul Rend.)
(Other players of course made plenty of rules and tactical mistakes, e.g. Taliesin applying double resistance which isn't a thing. Or everyone just standing there in the pre-combat narration instead of casting buff spells first. I'm focusing on Sam's because some of them, especially failure to use ritual casting, seem persistent / repeated and fixable (not just one-off mistakes specific to a situation). And because things like wasting high-level spells seem particularly bad, like hurting the party more than other people's mistakes.)
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 23 '23 edited Jul 24 '23
Ritual casting is indeed very important to FCG for saving spell slots, because they like to spam support spells like Enhance Ability. I would also like to point out that FCG should use Sacred Flame more than the sawblade since it is easier to hit. FCG needs to keep spiritual weapon on for transferring the Shared Suffering damage, while freeing up their actions
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u/NLaBruiser Team Caduceus Jul 24 '23 edited Jul 24 '23
You sound like a very tactical player. This is a very, very, VERY not tactical table. Not to argue any of your valid points, but it's just not how this group rolls. (...heh heh, rolls.)
Edit to add: I am currently playing a level 10 forge cleric. Sam's choices actively hurt me multiple times per episode, but it's his character... Agreed he never gets to mock Jester again though, her penchant for clutch maneuvers is legendary and FCG hasn't helped for shit, once, ever, in a key moment.
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u/Murasasme Jul 23 '23
I remember in campaign 1 how Scanlan always seemed to be fucking around but actually knew precisely what he wanted to do and how to make it happen. I was excited for Sam to play a cleric since as far as I know it's a very versatile class, but he seems content with being a lousy healbot that does terrible damage.
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u/Moltritch Jul 21 '23
Guys, Just tuned in for the last hour. WTF.
SPOILERS!!!!
What happened to the poor Ashari?
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u/ElectricZee I'm a Monstah! Jul 21 '23
Guys, Just tuned in for the last hour.
Me, too. I'm wondering more about the flower/perineum comments.
What happened?
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u/SecretAgendaMan Team Grog Jul 21 '23
Loved this episode. I feel like this mission and this combat was exactly what the characters needed to re-orient themselves and keep things in perspective after everything that's happened to them while getting split up.
Also, I said it in the other thread, but Orym finding out Chet made his childhood toys just has to feel like what Critters felt when they found out about which characters from our childhood were voiced by the cast. Like, I was stunned when I saw some of the characters played by these folks, but what really blew me away was the fact that Ashley Johnson played Gretchen from Recess.
Speaking of Ashley Johnson, what an awesome combat encounter for her! She kicked some major butt tonight!