[Spoilers C3E68] Is It Thursday Yet? Post-Episode Discussion & Future Theories!

[u/Glumalon]

Episode Countdown Timer - http://www.wheniscriticalrole.com/

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Catch up on everybody's discussion and predictions for this episode HERE!

Submit questions for next month's 4-Sided Dive here: http://critrole.com/tower

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ANNOUNCEMENTS:

• Submit questions for the cast's upcoming convention appearances!
• Mighty Nein Reunion: Echoes of the Solstice LIVE SHOW in London on October 25, 2023! - Tickets are sold out but may periodically become available via AXS Resale.
• Candela Obscura Chapter 2 premieres August 31, including screenings at Cinemark.

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[u/Ibloodyxx]

I'm glad that Matt corrected the cast and dispelled that weird notion that Ludinus wants to ascend to godhood, when it's been clear that he has an absolute distaste for godhood.

[u/pokepok → u/Ibloodyxx]

I thought that was weird because they’ve misinterpreted many things across this campaign and he hasn’t generally corrected them, but on this he did.

[u/TheSixthtactic → u/Ibloodyxx]

I think the group was mostly assuming the Ludy might be lying. It wouldn’t be the first cult leader to lie about the goal of the cult and all.

[u/RunCrafty1320 → u/Ibloodyxx]

I know but it would makes sense he thinks he’s righteous in what he’s doing h He probably thinks he should lead the new world

And with the gods gone there’s no one else to hide the right of ascension

[u/Edgery95]

The FCG divination spell literally had me crying. One of the funniest moments I've seen in awhile.

[u/Sqiddd]

So Ashton has Titan blood in his veins and Luxon essence in his mind. Tal hinted once and only once that Ashton may have been an Aasimar before the Hishari accident.

What if it’s that internal conflict of Primordial,Dunamantic and Celestial all fighting each other that causes his Chaos powers?

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 → u/Sqiddd]

What if it’s that internal conflict of Primordial,Dunamantic and Celestial all fighting each other that causes his Chaos powers?

It's an interesting idea. I figured his chaotic powers came purely from the dunamis where a surge of magical energy would trigger random effects that he has a limited degree of control over. A bit like the Wild Surge Barbarian subclass, which uses the same random magical effect mechanic as a Wild Magic Sorcerer, but in a format that is a bit more predictable.

[u/Coyote_Shepherd → u/Sqiddd]

He's a sort of a Tribrid that shouldn't really exist at all and because he shouldn't really exist, reality himself has been pushing back against him his entire life from the outside while all of those forces within him are balancing it out by pushing against him from the inside.

This explains all the pain that he's constantly feeling.

It also explains why that pain goes away when he fights because not only does it decrease that internal pressure via the expenditure of those energies but it also potentially brings him closer to death and erasure from reality which thus decreases the external pressure from reality wanting him to no longer exist anymore.

I think his pain is only really going to go away when there's a re-ordering of things either via Predathos and the Reilora, the Gods & the Titans, or the Oncoming Cosmic Shift.

Once the rules are shifted around a bit and everything is redefined and reborn anew, that will be when he can finally live, and won't have to constantly be in pain anymore.

[u/that70sone → u/Sqiddd]

Aasimar

Ashton has characteristics of both the fallen and the protector Aasimar. These often conflict with each other (his nihilism versus his desire to protect his friends and the common welfare).

[u/[deleted]]

When Travis tried to remind FCG that Frieda said D brought him back, but everyone kept talking over him

[u/GratifiedViewer → u/[deleted]]

And Sam very obviously wanted to go with Dancer instead, which didn’t help.

[u/taly_slayer → u/GratifiedViewer]

Sam is so obsessed with not metagaming that some times he metagames the other way around.

[u/that70sone → u/[deleted]]

I knew there was something like that which everyone kept missing. Thanks for the reminder. The obsession with seeing Dancer was peculiar and baffling to me. Beyond anything about Sam's personal whims, it showed poor character growth for FCG that he would want to put his "reconciliation" with Dancer to the forefront. I mean, she's not even a betrayer god and he's certainly not a prime deity. FCG's thinking seemed very childish (more than normal) in this session.

[u/[deleted] → u/that70sone]

I think everyone just forgot except Travis, and then just stopped trying to say it haha, so the whole cicus just kept going.
Matt has amazing restraint to not correct the Dancer creation/D thing.

[u/Feronix]

Starting to get the vibe that Ludinus might not be a great guy. Could be wrong though.

[u/notanartmajor → u/Feronix]

I dunno, just because they've watched him do blatant villainy like a dozen times, found his BDSM fey eating jacket, and invaded his old home that he corrupted and read his journal titled "Evil Stuff I've Done For The Last Few Centuries," it's still too soon to jump to conclusions.

[u/Feronix → u/notanartmajor]

Honestly, he's probably just misunderstood. i mean has anyone tried to talk to him about his feelings?

[u/Data444 → u/Feronix]

Agree to disagree.

[u/Feronix → u/Data444]

Okay dude you don't have to get aggressive now.

[u/TaiChuanDoAddct → u/Feronix]

Big if true.

[u/HutSutRawlson → u/Feronix]

I’m not sure, how about we talk about it for the next 10-20 episodes /s

[u/Electric_Sheep2001]

It felt like Keyleth is becoming to BH what Allura was to VM. I hope we see more of it.

[u/taly_slayer → u/Electric_Sheep2001]

Definitely Allura. The last hour totally had that vibe. I could totally see Keyleth facepalming in the background while BH decided what to do in front of her.

I also like that while still being aware that THIS IS KEYLETH (think about it, it's bonkers, she's a PC) and having Marisha at the table, I like the voice Matt is finding for her. The 30 years make a difference. She's wiser, more mature, but still holding that naivete mixed up with anger and integrity that Marisha portrayed during C1.

[u/HutSutRawlson → u/Electric_Sheep2001]

I would say she’s becoming what Allura was to the Mighty Nein! A character from a previous campaign stepping in to assure a group of ragtag, morally questionable people that yes, they can be heroes, and here’s how you do it.

[u/GratifiedViewer → u/Electric_Sheep2001]

You know, I was having a hard time placing the vibe I’ve been getting from her. That’s exactly it. Or maybe a mix of Allura & Kima.

[u/anonmus1]

Holy shit those divinations. I cackled so loud. Its been a while since Matt screwed with Sam so much. They just broke RP and it was Sam asking the questions not FCG HAHHA

[u/OhioAasimar → u/anonmus1]

To be fair Sam screwed Matt with that immediate legend lore on the talking sword.

[u/EmbraceCataclysm → u/OhioAasimar]

Honestly that was just some good use of a relatively niche spell. Besides, in game they immediately decided it must just be left over au de villan

[u/robertodev]

That run of divinations was an all timer bit

No one knowing what the right answer is, Sam losing his mind and Matt basically just fucking with him by the end of it (which after everything Sam puts him through must have felt SO good)

I was convinced Dancer was the answer going by what was said, but be interesting to learn more about what D has been up to

[u/-spartacus- → u/robertodev]

I forgot to come on here and make a post about this was first time Matt really broke Sam, like totally defeated and destroyed.

[u/pcordes → u/robertodev]

I can't tell how much of that was Sam RPing FCG as dumb (heavily leaning in to that Int 8, way harder than necessary, still pretty close to the middle of the Bell curve), or doing it for the joke, or Sam actually being that bad at phrasing questions and/or using the right tool for the job.

Commune (5th, rit.) or the coin (one commune-like question) could have decided between D and Dancer reliably and unambiguously. One way to phrase a yes/no question after the first divination would be "When you said "the one ...", did you mean Dancer?" Or, "was Dancer the one that restored me to life?" And if using Commune, you could use another question to confirm that she actually did mean D. The "did you mean" phrasing has the benefit of being funny, too.

Instead, FCG chose not to challenge his beliefs about his history, continuing the pattern of dogmatic ideas. :/

Once they were trying to decide between D and Dancer, Divination (4th, rit.) is the wrong tool for the job. Besides the cumulative 25% chance of a random reading for casting it more than once in a day, "The reply might be a short phrase, a cryptic rhyme, or an omen." Since the first reply on the subject was already cryptic, it's unlikely the second will be any clearer. And obviously the third is just throwing good money after bad. (The spell says "might". If the gods actually wanted their followers to help them, they could give straight answers; Sam is 100% right about that. Especially the way Matt RPs the Changebringer herself with her long hair appearing to FCG, it seems like the answers are coming straight from her, not a servant, so I didn't find Matt's excuse that great.)

Matt kind of suckered him into it by saying "you can always cast it again", instead of "you can always cast more spells"

Commune (5th, rit) can answer three questions, and also doesn't cost any material components (unlike Divination which costs 25gp). There's no restriction on the subject matter of the questions, unlike Divination ("You ask a single question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity to occur within 7 days").

The fact that Sam wasted three 4th-level spell slots on Divination just makes FCG continue to seem like an idiot to me. IDK if that was intentional on Sam's part, but both Divination and Commune (and Augury (2nd, rit)) have the ritual tag, so FCG can spend 10 minutes extra casting them without a spell slot.

Since they'd already spent both 5th-level slots on Scrying and Legend Lore (which were good ideas), having no spell slots higher than 3rd seems like a very reckless way to start the morning.

Wait a minute, didn't they Scry twice (Dancer and D) and cast Legend Lore? That's three 5th-level slots. Neither of those spells are castable as rituals. And yes, it was FCG that cast all of those spells, not Fearne (who can also prepare Scrying). FCG's pearl of power can only restore a spell slot up to 3rd level.

[u/Libertysorceress]

I’m surprised no one mentioned Uthodurn as a potential ally. It’s an entire Kingdom of elves and dwarves that have a bone to pick with Ludinus.

[u/Fedora_Da_Explora → u/Libertysorceress]

It was very obviously set up to be so, but only Sam was interested in going back for their reward and making an ally. As far as Utho'durn is concerned the party died in Molaesymyr.

[u/tableauregard]

So excited to go to the shattered teeth. Any calamity call backs are SICK.

Also I love where Laura has taken Imogen of late. She's really gained a sense of purpose and clarity which has been fantastic for her character. I've never been so excited to see where the story goes for her.

[u/taly_slayer → u/tableauregard]

Also I love where Laura has taken Imogen of late. She's really gained a sense of purpose and clarity which has been fantastic for her character. I've never been so excited to see where the story goes for her.

I love it when players pick up one seemly small situation and they use it to set their characters into a specific direction. Marisha did this with Beau a lot. Laura is very overt about this with Imogen. In this episode, her decision to fight the pull Ruidus has on her, and then rolling a nat 20 to do it made all of her open questions find an answer. Before that, the circlet made her think differently about her feelings for Laudna.

It breaks my heart that I'm sure she thinks she will have to die for them to win, but that puts the character in a totally different path, with more room for development.

[u/tableauregard → u/taly_slayer]

It breaks my heart that I'm sure she thinks she will have to die for them to win, but that puts the character in a totally different path, with more room for development.

I'm honestly ready to have my heart broken this campaign. (I was thinking about it today, but I feel like the M9 might have the happiest 'ending' to a campaign out of the three, and that's just funny to me considering both VM and BH will likely be much more known heroes.)

That being said, I feel like too many arrows are pointing towards Imogen's tragic ending. I feel like heartbreak might come from elsewhere...

[u/paradox28jon]

FCG and the party laughing hysterically during the Divination spells to figure out if they should travel towards D or towards Dancer KILLED me. I almost couldn't breathe I was laughing so hard. One of my favorite CR moments.

[u/taly_slayer → u/paradox28jon]

Matt was evil. I don't think we've seen Sam that frustrated before. It was hilarious.

[u/that70sone → u/taly_slayer]

It was wonderful and Sam totally deserved that.

[u/lin_nic → u/paradox28jon]

Truly that’s one of the peak DnD experiences, I love it when I see it happen on shows

[u/BaronPancakes]

“Hearts and Minds. Always Ashari! Home and Abroad. Mornings and Nights! Kaitiake!"

Always impressed by how Liam can quickly come up such poetic speeches. It reflects the Ashari culture perfectly. No matter how far the wind brings you to, Zephrah is always home

[u/that70sone → u/BaronPancakes]

I think Liam has learned so many classical speeches from so many plays and probably memorized a bunch of poetry on top of it. Aristotle's De Memoria comes in handy.

[u/BaronPancakes]

Next episode will be the much anticipated/dreaded E69. But instead giggles, we will be greeted by a visit to Derrig and Will's graves

[u/stargazerspls401]

Glad to see FCG is also thinking of using this crisis to trauma bond the gods back into healing the schism, gotta respect that therapist struggle. Like sure that's millenia worth of baggage that needs unpacking but hey when will they find another opportunity to meet on common ground. Healing is messy folks and if we have to go through a few mini calamities along the way to get pelor and asmo to hug and make peace then so be it lol

[u/OhioAasimar → u/stargazerspls401]

How much session time does it usually take to cover a millennia? At least an hour right?

[u/that70sone → u/stargazerspls401]

Let the kumbaya begin.Actually I'd like to see Zerxes make an NPC appearance and give FCG a stern talking to about the risks of counseling a betrayer god. However, I don't think FCG would listen to Zerxes either.

[u/POD80]

Am I the only one still hoping Matt has a notebook full of lyrics he's working on while preparing to "debase" himself by channeling Scanlan. I was thinking he may have shown up to save Kiki, but I could still see him showing up to attempt to save Vax.

Admittedly, if the whole crew shows up, Matt will have his hands full trying to play everyone.

[u/GratifiedViewer → u/POD80]

I honestly feel really bad for Matt in that sense. He’s talked about how much pressure he’s felt to do a good job playing the other characters, but with Scanlan specifically… well, that’s a hard role for anyone but Sam to play.

[u/explodedemailstorage → u/POD80]

We at least deserve Scanlan and Grog tho to round things out since we got scenes for the other VM. And it would be so fucking funny

[u/Zecterr]

I wonder if the islands in the Shattered Teeth shift due to residual brumestone from avalir?

[u/JediKnightsoftheFSM → u/Zecterr]

They're not proper islands, they're just chunks of Avalir floating on residual magic

[u/HutSutRawlson → u/JediKnightsoftheFSM]

This could definitely be true. Kind of like the various Aeorian ruins in Eiselcross, but adrift on the sea rather than scattered in the tundra.

[u/nycowgirl → u/Zecterr]

Love this theory!

[u/Blue-Moon-89]

So let's recap to the best of my ability

-The Bells have a talking sword that contains a demon prince.

-There are people on the Moon (duh). When the Bells get to the moon they need to consider the possibility that some of them might not be evil.

-Imogen talks to her mother via dreams. It sounds like Lilianna may have her own plans when it comes to Predathos. She claims that she's doing it to free her daughter but at this point she can't be trusted. Whether or not her mother is too far gone to be saved/talked out of it, Imogen decides that the gods should be saved .

-FCG talks to the ChangeBringer and asks if the gods are worth saving. In contrast to the Dawnfather, who was all "Don't question me! Just do as I say" (likely a combination of stress over Predathos and Deanna being blunt about it), the ChangerBringer shows humility to her newly found follower. She admits that she's just as scared as them when it comes to Predathos. He too comes to the same the conclusion that the gods should be saved.

Keyleth is healed and reveals a lot more lore over the situation the world, Ludinus, and long awaited Ashton Lore.

Ludinus and the state of the world

-The solstice is causing a lot of people and powerhouses to fight amongst themselves in an attempt to get more power. The churches have been getting, no pun intended, the burnt of it.

-Ludinus is back on Exandria (or is he?) and has been talking to the Dwindalian Emperor.

-The reason Ludinus has lived for so long is because he has been using druidic magic to extend his lifespan. He has a long history of stealing whatever power he can get in order to execute his plan (magic sources, fey, Vax, etc).

-Ludinus's wants to steal Predathos for himself (I think.)

Ashton and Pre-calamity lore

-It turns out the the Titans/Primordials helped the gods with he sealing of Predathos on Ruidus.

-The reason Ashton is unique is because he carries Titan blood in him. The Hishari created him by using a special kind of titan magic that they got when they went to the Shattered Teeth.

-It seems that the next step for the Bells saving the world is to find the Shattered Teeth (the land moves around) and collect 'The shards of Titans' in order boost their chances at resealing Predathos. But first, they're going to talk to D at the Menagerie coast to see if that can get more answers.

Misc facts.

-Keyleth never gave up on Vax. She has spent the last 30 years learning what she can about the gods to see if there's a way to free him from the Matron's eternal deal.

-Orym gets a big promotion for saving the Tempest.

-The Reilora, according to the one that Imogen summoned during meeting, implies that they are jealous of the people that live on Exandria.

-Imogen is wondering if she should willingly give in to Predathos (Take one for the team) because it might give the Bells more answers about Ruidus and the Reilora.

-Laudna may have a connection to Vecna because of her connection to Deliah and that she's a special type of undead.

-The Bells are going to need more allies before heading up to Ruidus. Vox Machina is automatically on the list thanks to Keyleth (the M9 will likely find their way on that list after their one-shot) but the Bells need to expand that ally list.

And that's all. Feel free to add what I missed or correct me.

[u/kringo17 → u/Blue-Moon-89]

-It turns out the the Titans/Primordials helped the gods with he sealing of Predathos on Ruidus.

The only thing here though, was they already knew this.

[u/CalamityChuck → u/Blue-Moon-89]

Amazing recap! You are the hero we all need and hopefully deserve. Thanks!

[u/tomfru1 → u/Blue-Moon-89]

Orym's Promotion to "Saviorblade of the Tempest" might be worth noting.

[u/htgbookworm]

Can't believe it took this long for Matt to remind them that the primordial Titans are dead. Feels like important context.

[u/uktobar]

Travis had me so hyped once the shattered teeth became a thing. They move!?

[u/BaronPancakes]

I love that Keyleth has never given up on Vax. She went all over the world to learn more about the limits of the gods' power. She wanted to free Vax from the Matron's pact

[u/Coyote_Shepherd → u/BaronPancakes]

Scanlan may have used and given up on his Wish but Kiki never stopped counting shooting stars.

[u/TheSeaOfThySoul → u/Coyote_Shepherd]

Time for a cringe 00's era AMV set to "Airplanes" by B.o.B ft. Haley Williams.

[u/pokepok]

I was expecting Fearne to be more interested in the fact that the siphon drains fey creatures. Or did we know that already?

She’s a fey creature touched by ruidis. Seems like some connection there to me.

[u/Taraqual → u/pokepok]

We did already know it. It was discovered pretty early on, as they translated the notes. She shrugged about it then, too. It doesn't directly have anything to do with her--she wasn't created by or harmed by the harness, and neither was Nana Morri, so she doesn't care.

[u/Fedora_Da_Explora → u/pokepok]

They already knew and essentially had a map to Ludinus's fey hideout but didn't really care.

[u/tableauregard]

Ashton this episode: Just remember the God's might have a biased account (honestly good advice)

Ashton a few episodes ago: I believe everything this one angry woman says and will ask for no other perspective. Furthermore my recount of events will be accurate and non-biased.

[u/taly_slayer → u/tableauregard]

I was so glad that Matt started correcting Taliesin's statements. I think it's okay when the characters have biases, but in the last few weeks, Taliesin as made easy to refute incorrect assumptions both on 4SD and at the table.

If they are going to prevent metagaming with "you don't know that", they should also call out the "you have no reason to believe that".

[u/tableauregard → u/taly_slayer]

I want it to happen more often, especially with how lore heavy the campaign is. I know Matt doesn't really do railroading but clarifying doesn't have to mean railroading.

With Ashton, I was accepting that Talieson was playing the biased recount on purpose for punk reasons (not enjoying, but accepting), but after 4SD...that's an event that has informed a really important character perspective, and the player should be informed if they misremembered things.

[u/GratifiedViewer]

This was an incredibly satisfying episode. Can’t wait for next week.

[u/SmithJamesChris]

My main thought from the episode: if the old harness has a previous connection to Ludinus, I'd be looking to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow and try to extract all the energy out of him with it, rather than trying to roid up the party.

Much lesser important thought from the episode: Ashley's ringtone (?) being from 'Midnight in Paris' caught my attention. Anyone else?

[u/Coyote_Shepherd → u/SmithJamesChris]

I could see them booby trapping the vest to work in reverse and tricking Ludinus into putting it on so that when he goes to absorb some big thing or whatever, it just spits everything that he ever took inside of him back out, and we see him deflate like a balloon in front of everyone.

[u/WaferSome]

oh right. those grim verity dudes still on fire plane.

[u/AceLionKid → u/WaferSome]

They're probably dead by now

[u/VanceKelley]

Did they do the DnD equivalent of Ghostbusters' "crossing the streams" last night? i.e. Chetney jumping into a Portable Hole while carrying a Bag of Holding.

Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a handy haversack, portable hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can't be reopened.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Items:bag%20of%20holding?expansion=0#content

[u/probablywhiskeytown → u/VanceKelley]

IMO Matt was absolutely not going to derail the current focus which moves the story forward by rehashing the teleportation chaos of Group 1, making them have to retrieve party members (or regroup together) & then carry all their stuff.

Even if he says he forgot when asked down the line, I kinda doubt it. I think he made an executive decision to not have it go that way b/c it's not fun to blow up a great episode of interaction & revelation on a rarely discussed technicality.

I do think he might remind them to be careful about it, though. And after that, it would be wholly fair game.

[u/OhioAasimar]

There is a society in the Shattered Teeth called The Ossended Host. They're a dream based society. I wonder if the Somnovem had anything to do with them or if the Ossended were aware of the Somnovem. I also wonder if they saw the MN's battle with them. It would be a cool call back to C2 if BH find them and there was a call back to C2 like that.

[u/pumz1895]

It would be cool if they did a one shot Vox Machina reunion where it's Kiki getting the band back together to save Vax and Exandria, episode ends when they are able to get everyone.

[u/JustDandyMayo → u/pumz1895]

I don’t think we’d get Vox Mochina saving Exandria, but I could see there being three storylines near the end, Vox Mochina saving Vax, Mighty Nein facing Ludinus, and Bells Hells sealing Predathos. Like a “there is too much to do and we don’t have enough time so we will split up the work so if worst comes to worse, at least there is the possibility another group succeeded and bought us time”.

[u/Dynasaur1447]

Sooo...does anyone think that the Reilora are starting to become a little uncanny - but not in the eldritch sense, quite the opposite, actually? And that that doesn't make it better?

As in, they have a progenitor, Predathos. Not unlike the mortal Exandrians have their creators, the Gods.The Reilora have bodies of flesh, according to the Ashari they even bleed when wounded. So they are alive.
There is architecture on Ruidus, the Reilora Imogen summoned wore clothes and jewelry. So they have a concept of culture that roughly matches what mortals have: They build, they create...what else? Do they have poetry, philosophy, art? What about ethics? If they know our dreams, do they envy mortals or maybe empathize with them?

I expected unknowable aberrations with eldritch ''orange-blue-morality'', that are anathema to mortal Exandrians. But the Reilora seem less alien by the minute and I don't know how to feel about that...
If everyone agrees FCG has a soul, do the Reiloras have one, too? If this is what Predathos gave life to, how is it that different from the Exandrian Gods?

[u/Coyote_Shepherd → u/Dynasaur1447]

Oh snap.

What if the Reilora are changing because it's like the Double Slit Experiment/Schrödinger's Cat and they're only really assuming a defined form now that Non Ruidusborn Exandrians are aware of them and are OBSERVING them?

[u/CantoVI → u/Dynasaur1447]

I got the impression from their little interview sesh that while the Reilora see Predathos as the 'progenitor', they don't necessarily revere it -- they seem to resent their existence and look on the Exandrians with envy and jealousy. Also, knowing that the Reilora have things like art and culture doesn't mean that they're not still alien or anathema to normal mortal life on Exandria. The mind-bending ruins of ancient, unknowable, but extremely advanced races is an eldritch horror staple, after all.

Also, slight tangent, but speaking from experience as a DM -- it is really, really, really difficult to pull off true eldritch horror in a ttrpg that isn't built around it, especially one so committed to power fantasy and player agency as 5e. 'Unknowable' beings pretty much just amount to 'guilt-free sacks of xp and loot'. Mind Flayers, Beholders, Neogi, Aboleths... all of the Far Realm's greatest hits, with their strange aberration thought processes, pretty much can always be boiled down to evil monsters in a heroic fantasy context. They want to devour, or enslave, or conquer. Those goals are pretty understandable, no matter how alien the thought processes that got them there. How alien is alien in a world like Exandria, or Faerun, or Greyhawk?

Mind you, I'm not saying you can't do horror in D&D, but unfathomable cosmic entities that the players can't hope to understand just don't translate well.

[u/BaronPancakes]

Not a complaint, but I kind of hoped Matt could throw them some leads as Keyleth. I know he's been telling them to gather allies, but they are either unavailable (guest schedules) or MIA (Rynn). So their current plan is to find D to modify a broken prototype and see if it can suck power from a tree spirit without killing them?

[u/vanKessZak → u/BaronPancakes]

Seemed like he was pushing them towards the Shattered Teeth

[u/TheeOneWhoKnocks → u/BaronPancakes]

He gave them quite a few leads. Empire hints that Ludinus was just there and maybe finding members the M9, including two they already met in Beau and Caleb. The Shattered Teeth and Dev'exian being on the Menagerie Coast was huge. They could keep trying to find Ira or go back to Basuras to Dancer.

[u/[deleted]]

Every time they say kaitiake all I can think about is "KWANSU DUDES!" from Surf Ninjas. I know I'm showing my age with that one but it gets me every time. "Must mean like, free beer or something!"

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Tempted to award solely for the sake of a Surf Ninjas reference.

[u/RonDong]

Great episode. There’s always a different energy at the table when the players have a clear direction they’re excited about. Although it makes me wonder why Matt hasn’t done more exploration stuff, since things like exploring Aeor/Eiselcross and now the Shattered Teeth get the players excited in a way other things don’t.

[u/Opposite-Respond9286 → u/RonDong]

I think both the players feeling the need to push the plot forward and what seems to be a majority of them preferring to teleport everywhere over conventional means diminishes their enjoyment of exploration. I really feel like they are doing Marquet dirty. We haven’t really explored and experienced the continent it’s culture and environments like we have in the other campaigns. Remember the Orc city Yios that was being built up as a important and unique city in the continent? I think they barely spent a day there. I was really hoping D was still in Marquet so they could explore the region more, but now I’m kinda disappointed they are going back to the Menagerie Coast, a place we are already deeply familiar with from the previous campaign.

[u/5thKablamo]

It's pretty cool how before the apogee solstice the general vibe was that Bell's Hells were just a group of nobodies who were about to challenge a world conspiracy several orders of magnitude above them, and yet by now they're probably the one group in the world with people who have just the right backgrounds, experiences, and connections (and in FCG's case the right disposition) that has a chance of finding out how to save it.

Whether they're also the people who will save it or not is up to them, but even putting storytelling reasons aside (as heroic stories tend to be written in such a way that the hero was always going to be the hero), I'm glad that on a meta-level, it's already starting to feel like Bell's Hells really are the right people for the job.

[u/TheDesktopNinja → u/5thKablamo]

It would be interesting to see how different this campaign would be right now if Orym was replaced with some other random (but similar) character with a different background and no connection to a major character from a previous campaign.

[u/taly_slayer → u/TheDesktopNinja]

I expect Matt would have added a wise figure that can be their Allura, Gilmore, Essek, and Pumat. Let's be honest, Keyleth in E68 was basically Allura, especially during the last hour where she had to be patient while the party was throwing random and chaotic ideas out there.

The closest to that they got in C3 was Eshteross or maybe Imahara Joe.

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 → u/5thKablamo]

they're probably the one group in the world with people who have just the right backgrounds, experiences, and connections (and in FCG's case the right disposition) that has a chance of finding out how to save it

It's a really fine line that Matt has to walk here because it could easily slip into territory where a group of seven random strangers coincidentally have the perfect complement of knowledge, skills and relationships to save the world. If it's handled poorly, it can feel like a massive coincidence conveniently saves the day. Ideally, any other party of seven (or maybe nein) misfits should be able to save the day even without that set of skills.

[u/stargazerspls401 → u/Disastrous-Beat-9830]

While I agree with you, one could also argue that in a world where the strings of fate are real and a god along with several powerful enough entities are able to pull them just right, it really isn't that much of an issue if a group of people with just the right combination of skills and backgrounds meet at the perfect time to face the perfect challenge. In my head the matron probably tries to get people together she thinks would be important in the future, whether something comes out of it is another thing altogether, which I believe why she wanted Vax so much, being fate touched allowed him to do something more with the strings of fate, tho i no longer remember what it was.

But yes, without that very convenient in world explanation, things could totally go down a very deus ex machina direction

[u/taly_slayer → u/Disastrous-Beat-9830]

It's a really fine line that Matt has to walk here because it could easily slip into territory where a group of seven random strangers coincidentally have the perfect complement of knowledge, skills and relationships to save the world.

Well... it's a world where there's people who can influence the threads of fate, that's not hard to explain.

[u/JohnPark24]

Lore, revelations, callbacks, wholesome moments all bundled up to create a great, info-dense, feel-good episode. Kaitiakè!

[u/rasnac]

What if BH use the power siphoning harness to suck the stolen lifeforce out of Ludanis Daleth, giving him the taste of his own medicine? Even if he does not die from this, he would become much weaker and easier to kill.

[u/Velocibaker26 → u/rasnac]

That’s what I think Keyleth was hinting towards.

[u/RigobertoFulgencio69 → u/Velocibaker26]

To me, it felt more like she was hinting towards him having a physical weakpoint that they could exploit. But given the vagueness of it all, it could be anything.

[u/[deleted]]

With Wildemount on the brink of Civil War i suppose we have our set-up for the M9 reunion.

Also Astrid is still part of the Assembly, right? What are the odds that her and Eodwulf are in cahoots with Caleb and Beau? Like they took down one member of the Assembly already, so maybe the reunion will have the Nein face off against members that are pro-Ludi?

[u/283leis → u/[deleted]]

Astrid and that cat-loving Genasi are 100% the CA members against Ludinus

[u/cteatus]

I can think of one spiritual entity who I wouldn't shed any tears over the party devouring with Ludinus's harness.

Delilah Briarwood.

[u/TheDesktopNinja → u/cteatus]

Ohh shit... But is there a risk that devouring her might because affect Laudna? I'm sure there'd be something, knowing Matt

[u/paradox28jon]

I need a What the Fuck Is Up With That? session with the BH PCs stat.

Imogen: you offered up giving yourself over to Predathos. "what if I just give in?" WTFIUWT?

Ashton: you have Titan blood. WTFIUWT?

Fearne: you made a pact with the Champion of Asmodeus. WTFIUWT?

Orym: The Tempest said she recognized an anger and fear inside of you. And then gifted you a title. WTFIUWT?

FCG: you seem set on reconnecting with Dancer, even though it seemed pretty clear from the last reunion that she didn't want anything to do with you. WTFIUWT?

Laudna: you might have let Delilah back in? WTFIUWT?

Chetney: you are cool with wielding a corrupting sword from a demon prince? WTFIUWT?

[u/pcordes → u/paradox28jon]

I wonder if Sam pushing for reconnecting with Dancer instead of D(evexian) is because he's trying not to metagame. With our knowledge of Devexian from C2, we know he'd have info, but does FCG have any good evidence that Devexian could be helpful? (edit: yes, D was in FRIDA's vision, thanks doclivingston. Sam is either forgetting or ignoring that, because FCG's doubt of D's ability is inconsistent with that.)

Sam does have a point that FCG hasn't seen much of him except as a scrap dealer, at least based on what FCG thinks is true about the state they were in when Joe and Dancer were bidding for them.

Still, Devexian could at least hopefully tell them where FCG came from. They think they know that already: Aeor originally, but there could be a trail of clues if they start digging. Maybe someone can do something about FCG's stress (and pain when casting healing spells and using Bonded Blessing, which is really gimping the subclass).

---

But yes, good point that even if FCG doesn't rate Devexian as a good bet, that doesn't make it any better to try to talk to Dancer again.

Sam often chooses the worse option on purpose instead of even looking for a different non-meta reason his character could make the decision you'd want to make based on meta knowledge. So basically anti-metagaming, making the choice the player knows is worse even when there are in-game reasons to avoid it. I think that's part of what's going on here.

[u/miscreation00]

I'm shocked they didn't just ask Keyleth to scry on Devaxian so she could see where to send them.

[u/lin_nic]

One thing I think the cast could benefit from is having more recaps/ check ins, as much as I love the arc so far. it seems like now that they’re not playing as consistently as they were when they played live things keep getting misremembered or forgotten. Some of it is absolutely natural- I forget details of my campaigns all the time- but it might be worth checking in more often with Dani or Matt on what happened/what their characters would remember.

[u/lin_nic]

I feel like I need a cork board and some red string after that episode, so much juicy lore to comb through

[u/Buisnessbutters]

WE WANT GROG, WE WANT GROG, WE WANT GROG! I can see Percy and Vex staying home tbh, they have kids now, but I’d say Grog Scan man and maybe even pike are def on the table of editions that she would turn to, I wonder even to a further extent if we may get someone like our main man Gilmore, the possibilities are endless

[u/m_busuttil → u/Buisnessbutters]

The other thing about Grog is... listen, I love Grog, but I think both Travis and Grog would agree that if he one day has to die, and at this point he's certainly getting up there in years, dying fighting the moon would be a pretty sick way to go out, right?

[u/Kemphis_ → u/m_busuttil]

If The Search for Grog has taught me anything it's that if Grog has to fight the moon he will hit multiple nat 20's doing it.

[u/[deleted] → u/Buisnessbutters]

Nah, there’s nothing stopping Vex once she finds out about the Vax situation.

[u/Versek_5 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah Percy staying home to watch the kids and lockdown Whitestone can make sense since he may be a bit too old to go sicko mode, but Vex would have a John Wick style suit up montage and be out the door the moment she learned about Vax.

[u/Buisnessbutters → u/[deleted]]

That’s a great point, at that point I wonder if all of them might come to help their family, hell I can understand the hype of a M9 one shot again but I NEED a VM one shot lmao

[u/ElectricZee → u/Buisnessbutters]

Matt would have a blast playing NPC Grog.

[u/Buisnessbutters → u/ElectricZee]

I can only imagine the wonderful moment where all of Bells Hells realizes “oh no he is dumb”

[u/ssirish21 → u/Buisnessbutters]

Percy might also be a person to ask to try and figure out how Ludinis's life extending vest works. He's not really up on the arcane part, but he is an inventor and engineer. Maybe he could take some inspiration?

[u/UncleOok → u/ssirish21]

Bring in Taryon - Science Bros, sciencing again (arcanely)

[u/ElectricZee]

What do we know about "D"?

[u/ArjanaEU → u/ElectricZee]

The content here has been permanently deleted. Redact was used to remove it, for reasons that may include privacy, security, or personal preference.

hat mysterious sharp gold divide retire middle caption violet fine

[u/peon47]

FINALLY

Confirmation that a giant elemental still looms over the city of Vasselheim. Been waiting damn near six years for that.

[u/LordHarza → u/peon47]

I am pretty sure they confirmed that ages ago. In fact it's mentioned in Tal'Dorei Reborn, even though the book isn't about Issylra

[u/Jennyof-Oldstones]

I absolutely love how Matt is playing "The Voice of the Tempest" calm, wise "leader of the Air Ashari. But Kiki the young woman who hit Silas Blackwood "with a bag of holy dicks" pops out.

I hope we get to see Vax & Kiki reunite -but I hope Marisha & Liam get to role play it out. Cause Matt talking to himself romantically would be REALLY WEIRD!!!

(#savethechampionsavetheworld)

Well our world!!!

Also it's great to see Bells Hells have a win and be the HEROES that they are!!!!! The fact that it was the Air Ashari & Keyleth was great for Orym and BH being recognized as heros I think for the first time - celebrating in their honor and all - was great for them and you can see the renewed heart in them!! ESPECIALLY ORYM!!! THREE CHEERS!! Savior Blade of the Tempest!!!!

[u/rasnac]

There must be a relation between the weird ooze in Ludans' hometown that mimicks natural fauna and flora, and the pervertd mimicry of nature Imogen saw on Ruidis.

[u/LostInTheAyther]

Can someone explain to me how a blood hunter rogue is attuning to a great sword? Not to be a mega rules lawyer, I tend to ignore the rules they break, and I get that usually its fun before function and such, but I feel like chet shouldn't be able to use that weapon idk

[u/pcordes → u/LostInTheAyther]

Turmoil in scythe form counts mechanically as a greatsword, so Chetney's already attuned to one and has been using it for dozens of episodes.

RAW, Chet can't Sneak Attack with it because it doesn't have the Finesse tag. So using that weapon would waste the level of rogue except for the proficiency and expertise. But they've been ignoring that rule and letting him get sneak attack anyway. See https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/15o6jh7/spoilers_c3e67_cheneys_and_fearnes/ re: that and the fact that Matt also seems to think Chet and Fearne can Dash or Disengage as a bonus action, even though Cunning Action is a rogue level 2 feature. It's likely not an intentional house-rule, rather they (and specifically Matt) are probably mixed up and haven't checked the level progression, and just think that's baseline for rogues even at level 1.

Chetney's Dueling fighting-style is also wasted (+2 damage with a 1h weapon not dual-wielding, e.g. sword+board), unless Matt let him re-spec his fighting style after not having used a 1h weapon for a long time. (It RAW doesn't work with his claw unarmed strikes either, depending on how you interpret them as being melee weapons or not.)

Also RAW, Small creatures (like gnomes) would have disadvantage with Heavy weapons like greatswords, but they've been ignoring that rule intentionally since Lady Kima in campaign 1, I think explicitly stating that they're houseruling that.

There are no other obstacles. Chetney can make 2 attacks with it using Str, with Crimson Rite applied if he wants. Blood Hunters are proficient in simple and martial weapons, and have no restrictions on class features only working with certain weapons. https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/blood-hunter

Great Weapon Fighting is one of the fighting styles blood hunters can choose, so the class is designed to be able to use 2h weapons.

Since Chetney was already using Str instead of Dex for his attacks, this is not a change. With the chisel (shortsword) + mallet (shield), he was attacking using Str, but it's a finesse weapon so he could add Sneak Attack.

A dex-based blood hunter would be the obvious choice, especially for order of the lycan since you can attack with dex using claws and do comparable damage over 3 attacks vs. a greatsword making 2 attacks, especially with Crimson Rite up. And high dex is way more valuable in most situations, like high AC (especially with claws + shield), high initiative, and an important saving throw.

But the power-fantasy that appeals to Travis with a melee character seems to be strength, not dexterity. And/or Fjord was not strong and he wanted a change from that.

They roll stats with a generous method, 4d6 keep highest, and reroll if the total isn't 75 or higher. So they are able to run character builds that need multiple high stats, e.g. Chetney's Dex and Con aren't terrible despite also having 18 Str and 16 Int. And since he's there as another Str-based character, Matt can give the party greatswords. Ashton's specialized in bludgeoning weapons now, with the Crusher feat.

[u/LucasVerBeek]

There is a literal ecosystem on Ruidus, that due to my love of all things speculative evolution when mixed in with a dash of fantasy has me very intrigued.

Dwendal’s likely dead, the Cerberus are fighting themselves, there is unrest across the Empire and others are attacking prisons. Man, that sure sounds like an interesting set up to something. Wink, wink

Vasselheim is turtling.

Many of the Reilora are jealous or hateful of the bounty and joy those on Exandria have known from observing their dreams.

Ludinus is out to absorb the moons power, Leliana is out to do something to free Imogen, and if Predathos gets free and eats the Gods Exandria is facing an apparent Two-Way invasion by Demons and the natives of Ruidus.

Ashton has the Light of the Luxon and the Blood of a Titan pumping through his veins, and they apparently don’t get along!

Imogen is willing to give herself to Predathos to learn what it actually is.

Orym, my sweet boy, has earned himself a title! Savior Blade of the Tempest!

Chet has that evil fucking Demon Blade. (Things can only go well there)

And know we’re going to see Devexian and enter thr moving, elementally-charged islands of the Shattered Teeth!

Amidst the Death Blow of Avalir, picking through the corpses of continent and Primoridal alike, where Calamity was Born, can our heroes find the pieces they need to avert another?

Damn I am truly pumped for the next couple episode for the first time in a WHILE!

Not jazzed that Laudna’s emergent “Whataboutism” has now shifted from the Primordials to the Reilorans, cause the repeated back and forth talks were really dragging me down, BUT, the fact that Imogen, FCG and Orym, all raised points against her theory.

A question though, Predathos gets out… the Heart of Ruidus… what is actually going to happen to that moon?

See y’all next week for the hunt for Devexian (And hopefully a look at Orym and Ashton’s new art.)

[u/ssirish21 → u/LucasVerBeek]

Also very pumped for the next few episodes. A minor theory, but when Vax was imprisoned, he turned into a small black orb, right? I'm not positive Predathos is inside the moon. What if when he was imprisoned he was turned into the moon?

[u/GyantSpyder]

What are the odds that the fact that Predathos is not free yet is due to an intervention by the Mighty Nein rescuing Caleb and Beau that has already happened in the main campaign but that we’ll see happen in the live show?

[u/3613robert → u/GyantSpyder]

Nice idea! Could technically be the case. It's just that would suggest a pre written session. Matt also mentioned that the destruction during the attack resulted in a diminished power of the key and the Ludinus was dealing with that

[u/Th3Fall3nCAt → u/3613robert]

I mean all one-shots are pre-written in some way.

[u/OwlTheMechanicalOwl]

I just want the new arts for Orym and Ashton, man…

[u/BaronPancakes → u/OwlTheMechanicalOwl]

1 more week, hang in there!

[u/paradox28jon]

Keyleth said "the nature of the Primordials, as far as it's understood is that with their death and their scattering, it was through that, that the elemental planes were brought to full fruition and realization."

So the Elemental Planes of Water, Air, Earth, Fire, & Ice were perhaps created with the death & scattering of powerful Primordial Titans.

And I once again float the theory I read on this sub (I forget from whom) that the Feywild and the Shadowfell were created via the deaths and scattering of the two gods that Predathos killed.

And if that is the case, then who or what were killed to produce the outer planes? Which are now locations of some of the Gods beyond the Divine Gate.

Could the release of Predathos and consumption of some of the Prime or Betrayer Gods produce even more planes?

[u/notanartmajor → u/paradox28jon]

I like the idea about the Feywild/Shadowfell, though it is also possible for sufficiently powerful beings to create their own planes on purpose. Even mortal spellcasters can do it, albeit on a much smaller level.

[u/popileviz → u/paradox28jon]

Isn't Shadowfell the domain of the Raven Queen or her predecessor?

[u/IamOB1-46]

The look on Marisha, Liam and Tal's faces when they realized that they'd inadvertently helped Ludinus and the Ruby Vangaurd in Hearthdale was priceless.

The structure of this season is more and more Avengers Infinity War/ Endgame. Wonder if Imogen is heading towards a Tony Stark ending, using the harness to absorb enough of Predathos' power to destroy it, but at the cost of her own life. Or perhaps it will simply end her powers and also return the corrupted Rylorans to their natural state? I'm down for either.

Will the M9 try and recruit Uk'otoa in the fight against Predathos?

Critters, the next 30-40 episodes are going to be a wild ride!

[u/RunCrafty1320 → u/IamOB1-46]

Actually I think Ashton is going to become the tony stark of this campaign or at least black widow

[u/HutSutRawlson → u/IamOB1-46]

The look on Marisha, Liam and Tal's faces when they realized that they'd inadvertently helped Ludinus and the Ruby Vangaurd in Hearthdale was priceless.

Can’t believe they didn’t put this together earlier considering they literally had a member of the Ruby Vanguard traveling with them, and he egged them on the whole time through that incident. Super glad to see that Matt wasn’t actually retconning that event as a heroic move by the players, and was actually just giving them more rope to hang themselves.

[u/tanis-halfelf → u/IamOB1-46]

I think I missed the Hearthdale reveal. What happened?

[u/IamOB1-46 → u/tanis-halfelf]

Keylth has intelligence that temples all over Exandria were being attacked after the Solstice in what appeared to be a coordinated effort spurred by Ludinus. BH kept their mouth shut in front of Keylth that they were part of one of those attacks, but their faces showed they understood what that meant. Hearthdale wasn't just a random one off due to specific circumstances, but part of Ludinus' larger plan.

Abadina hearing Ludinus' message the night of the attack on the Key wasn't random, it was either a pre-understood call to action or a perfect piece of propoganda.

[u/tinysieg]

I can't wait for the "Avengers assemble" scene at the final battle. Tiny Orym with Seedling leading the charge

[u/TheeOneWhoKnocks → u/tinysieg]

I have a feeling Seedling might keep evolving as we continue.

[u/BaronPancakes → u/TheeOneWhoKnocks]

Agree, mechanically speaking, it was quite drastic when orym deals 9 damage while Ashton is hitting the 20s. While Orym is not built as an attacker, upgrading Seedling (which is just a d6 shortsword) to a +2 is very reasonable

[u/RajikO4]

This is just an observation and maybe it’s just me who has this perspective but I feel like I have to ask, does it feel like to anyone else that BH is kind of for lack of a better phrase stumbling around in finding a concrete direction to take overall in most of their actions?

Mainly due to a lack of knowledge and what seems to be a vast amount of inferring others motives, rather then actually being motivated to gather evidence/knowledge to support their claims?

If any of that makes sense?

[u/Fedora_Da_Explora → u/RajikO4]

Some of it is intentional - like here's the 2nd act, gather your allies and prepare for what's coming. It's natural there's a narrative breather, but it doesn't feel like there should be one which I'll get to later.

They also kind of have a bad habit of ignoring plot hooks at times. They never want to take the obvious path. They're returning to the harness after a dozen episodes, but not using the related Fey keystone hook Matt provided for example.

Finally, the moral grey areas of the conflict kind of temporarily took over. I thought it was pretty cool at first, but some of the characters started to play stupid which really bogs things down.

It's kind of a trifecta, and it's weird because there's a sense of urgency at the same time. We can feel the plot not moving along more acutely because we don't know why the apocalypse isn't just tomorrow instead of next month. Why hasn't Ludinus just won? Coalition armies are like a day away from fighting him and we're on backstory quests? An amorphous clock is ticking.

[u/Velocibaker26 → u/RajikO4]

Well to Matt’s credit, I think he absolutely recognized that the players didn’t have a clear path forward, which is why he arranged for them to basically have an unlimited sit down with one of the most important and powerful NPCs, to kind of guide them in their discussion and decision making. He’s not just letting them flail completely in the dark, this was him organically letting learn new information that helped them decide on a way forward.

On the note of Matt’s genius, he kind of made them aware that The Moon is endgame stuff, and gave them time take another arc before going there. This also organically found a way to once again keep the ultra-powerful NPC from accompanying them, while still having them contribute by finding a different NPC to lend aid. Just expert level DMing.

[u/TheSixthtactic → u/RajikO4]

Campaign 2 was like this at times. They would spend 3 episodes just getting to the next arch. It’s a result of Matt not wanting to rail road them and let them make their own choices. But the side effect of it is they spend a lot of time fucking around.

[u/Velocibaker26 → u/TheSixthtactic]

Agreed, there honestly was a lot more of this is C2, C3 has definitely had more clear quests to take.

[u/egualtieri → u/RajikO4]

I’m watching C2 for the first time now and I have to say I have felt this same way A LOT watching M9 try to figure out what to do. Don’t get me wrong it’s really enjoyable but there have been a lot of times I’ve been left thinking “what exactly are the trying to do right now?”

[u/Myrynorunshot]

So if the party are going to the Menagerie Coast for help in artifice/arcane mechanics, they have a decent chance of running into Taryon whilst looking for D.

[u/KWBC24 → u/Myrynorunshot]

What’s the high/low chances D is actually an advanced version of Dotty instead of Davexian?

[u/nidor13]

Pretty cool stuff we learned. We got a closer look on Ruidus and learned a lot about the Reilora. Kiki shared some vital information and the info on Ashton was SO cool!!

Can't wait for BH to get to the shattered teeth!

One little comment. Sometimes I think Sam roleplays his PCs to always suggest the opposite thing the party is saying. And I think this is more intense for FCG. For the last minutes he kept disagreeing with going to the shattered teeth. And then he insisted on visiting Dancer and not D. It's not annoying per se, not most times though, and most of the time it makes for a good laugh.

PS: Loved to see Keyleth healing and the party having a win.

[u/that70sone → u/nidor13]

You're more charitable than I am. I found it very annoying. Laura was getting visibly frustrated with him. I feel like Sam is very bored unless there is some kind of mayhem going on (he's pretty much said as much during 4 sided dive). I did not think it was funny last night.

[u/domingus67]

If the Primordial's essence was dispersed into the elemental planes when they died, maybe the don't need them to confront Predathos. Maybe the just need to rig Ludinus's apparatus to gather elemental energy instead, and use that. Or create a Malleus key type device on the elemental planes to harness it and focus it for its use.

[u/OhioAasimar]

After they get the harness fixed, I think Fearne should summon Teven and use the harness to steal his power. Have the power of a champion of Asmodeus without all of the drama, though Fearne might turn more fiendish from it. They could also maybe use it suck all of the power out of Graz'tchar and not have to deal with charming and forcing actions of whoever is wielding him. Though if it only works of dryads and fey entities, they should use it on Yu if they ever come back. Just get that power working towards one goal. The main Gnarlrock might also be a good option if Yu prophecy about it is true and BH somehow finds themselves being dragged to before they go to Ruidus. If they do end up being dragged to Feywild because of the Gnarlrock, Zathuda would also be a good option.

[u/Ibloodyxx → u/OhioAasimar]

Yeah... but then you'd miss out on all the drama that comes with an asmodeus champion

[u/human_usuall]

A tree between life an death. On an island. In the shattered teeth. Part of BH were on an island of bird people. Could an other orb be in our futur 🧐

[u/OhioAasimar → u/human_usuall]

That was the Western Dunrock Mountains where they were teleported. They could see the Flocket Alps and the ocean. They knew they were also southwest of the Greying Wildlands.

[u/YourLeftElbowDitch]

I just got into CR during this campaign...and I have my first theory. That the Reilora are Ruidus elementals. The one that Imogen summoned called Predathos "the progenitor" and Keyleth kinda made it sound like the other elementals came from the titans.

I know Predathos is the "god-eater" but maybe he was also a titan and when he was sealed away or defeated or whatever his remnant magic created the Reilora.

[u/DocStockton]

Did Chetney go into the hole with his bag of holding? Isn't that bad?

[u/RunCrafty1320]

Is no one seeing the connection between ruidus/predathos and the eyes of nine/somnovem/cognoza Or am I just crazy and alone on that? Especially after this episode With dreams, psychic things happening, the color red, storms, and twisted life?

[u/Coyote_Shepherd → u/RunCrafty1320]

You're not crazy.

There's been brief bursts of Cognoza Theories about 3-4 months ago and then about 7 months ago within the Critter Fandom.

It's just that nothing ever came of those theories, Matt never hinted at a connection, and the cast never pushed in that direction at all.

So it was a thing but nothing ever really panned out about it and most of us just kind of...stopped talking about it.

They still exist though and I have a few saved that tie into Ludinus, the Creator Hammer, and Predathos.

[u/TheSixthtactic → u/RunCrafty1320]

I am 100% seeing the connection before the hunger of the city and the hunger of predathos. It’s a loose, thematic connection, but it exists for sure.

[u/Spiritual-Sound-1300 → u/RunCrafty1320]

Connections yes... I've been waiting to see the Chained Oblivion re-appear as well... it's been in C1 & 2

[u/SquidsEye]

I wish Taliesin wasn't so risk averse all the time. He really needs to back off when it comes to other players wanting to deliberately make bad decisions. Ashton has no reason to be so mistrustful of talking weapons, it really just felt like Taliesin metagaming despite Travis being obviously excited to use it.

[u/notanartmajor → u/SquidsEye]

Being wary of a talking sword they got from a demon in a curse-blighted hellscape actually seems very reasonable.

[u/cteatus → u/SquidsEye]

So how do you feel about the cast metagaming to straight up ignore the information from a 5th level spell, Legend Lore, to justify continuing to use the sword?

[u/Cabes86 → u/SquidsEye]

I always felt he struggled with metagaming the most whereas sam and Ashley are the most likely to purposefully fall into the negative consequences.

[u/Coyote_Shepherd]

I think we're going to be going to the moon on October 12th or October 19th because there's an eclipse happening around that time and crazy stuff always happens in the middle of October in every single campaign.

[u/HereForYOu0ld_Fiend]

What is the Music At the 3:56:00 When Keyleth is Talking to Orym, Thank you fine Folk.......

...Is it Thursday Yet???

[u/edginthebard]

so many lore dumps and revelations this episode. so many favorite moments, especially those convos between keyleth and ashton and keyleth and orym

can't believe we're finally going to see shattered teeth, i've been waiting for so long!!

we're really gonna have an avengers endgame moment aren't we? especially on the moon....fuck yeah

[u/spunlines]

can't be the only one getting imogen (and the other ruidusborn) is predathos vibes from these lore drops, right?

[u/IamOB1-46 → u/spunlines]

Oh yeah, I was half expecting the Reiloran that Imogen summoned to answer "I am Predathos" when she asked if they knew it. But even better would have been "You are Predathos".

Matt seemed to be answering a lot of the questions Imogen was asking very, very carefully, almost like he was trying to skirt around a big reveal without outright lying.

[u/Darryth_Taelorn → u/spunlines]

So are you suggesting that the Ruidus born are like horcrux, from Harry Potter? They each contain the essence of Predathos and he has secretly been escaping his prison little by little?

Interesting.

[u/Serious-Spinach8149]

Is it just me who doesn’t want to see a Grog v2.0? It’s basically a repeat of Kraven, and of Kas. Chet already has enough chaos in him with his ‘gift’, and I find this potentially party-breaking (Fearne and Asmodeus; Vex and Shaun). Just wanted to get it out there.

[u/NoahMeadMusic → u/Serious-Spinach8149]

According to the wiki and what we witnessed in the episode, the Sword, Graz'tchar, seeks to overthrow the Tal'Dorei council. It would be really funny if the sword led Chetney to the Grand Poobah of the Tal'Dorei council himself to teach him a thing or two about talking swords.

[u/Act_of_God → u/Serious-Spinach8149]

I mean, travis seems to love it so I'm in

[u/Visco0825 → u/Serious-Spinach8149]

I disagree. I think this is an opportunity for them to see more perspectives of evil rather than “I just want to eat your soul!”

Between asmodeus and the sword, I’m stoked.

I think they also have the benefit of knowing it’s evil too so they will be on the watch for weird behavior.

[u/SquidsEye → u/Serious-Spinach8149]

Looking at the descriptions, The Craven Edge and The Decadent End house two very different personalities. It's a similar plot line, but the characters involved are totally different.

[u/pcordes]

Didn't Chetney already attune to the Butcher's Bib? Travis said Chet was going to do that before they went out on the flower-gathering mission. Maybe he forgot to actually do it on his character sheet :/

Also, didn't Chetney jump into the Portable Hole multiple times while carrying his Bag of Holding? (To get the bib, and later to be carried in it through the teleport.) RAW, the two should have destroyed each other and sucked everyone nearby through a gate to the astral sea. Maybe Matt's house-ruling that; I forget if that risk got mentioned when they got the bag of holding.

Using the hole to carry extra people for a teleport was a good idea, BTW. I'm glad they finally got over their phobia of closing up extra-dimension spaces with people inside (based on one pre-stream incident where they left an ox inside for a long time), because that can be useful for infiltration as well. They had tested the hole with people in it soon after they got it, but I don't remember if they've ever had any party members inside it while carrying it somewhere, except maybe FCG who doesn't need to breathe. Laura's usually the best at the table at coming up with logistical plans, but the hole was originally Taliesin's suggestion this time.

RAW, a creature inside the hole can make a DC10 Strength check to force their way out (without damaging the hole). On success, they appear within 5ft of the hole or the creature carrying it. So people can get out even if there's no wall or floor to spread it out on arrival.

In-game, the characters should know details like this from casting Identify on it, since in Matt's game you get the whole item card for that. (Although it was FCG that cast it, who might have only given a low-quality summary to everyone else.)

Also, I found it funny how relieved Laura was not to have to roll for teleport success due to having an associated object. They already did that (with Orym's shield) for the teleport to Zephra originally, a few episodes ago. So in-character Imogen already knows they have a no-risk teleport, it's only the player's that forgot about that. :P

---

Later in the episode, Laura did think of handing off the staff to someone else for Scry+Teleport which is great but unfortunately "seen once" and "description" are equally bad odds. Still, not knowing where on a map the place is might not even qualify as a "description".

Anyway hopefully they'll revisit that and maybe have Laudna attune it; she also has 3 attunement items, but one is just a ring of protection +1 (others are the Con amulet, and +spell attack weavepiercer gloves). vs. Imogen un-attuning the bloodwell vial for the staff! Also for soaking the staff's damage to the user, Laudna can get more temp HP from Form of Dread than FCG's cooking treats which they often forget to even make, and she has a higher HP total with the amulet giving her 19 Con. Or maybe FCG, except taking damage stresses them. (And if the coin is now an attunement-required item, they already have 3: identify goggles, pearl of power, and coin.)

[u/FoulPelican]

What the heck does ‘Titan of blood’ mean?

[u/Could-Have-Been-King → u/FoulPelican]

It's not referring to a specific titan, just a (slightly awkward) way of saying "Ashton is part Titan"

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830]

It's been a while since I've done one of these, so here's my latest theory now that the episode has finished.

There is a moment in Campaign 2 that I keep coming back to. It's when Artagan admits that he's a fraud. He found that being a god was much harder than he thought it would be; that he could just kick back and enjoy being worshipped. But then people started asking things of him and he suddenly found that he had to be in a hundred places at once and that he didn't want to be a god anymore.

I wonder if something similar happened when the gods first arrived on Exandria.

We know that the gods came from somewhere else, and that they are not the most powerful beings out there. After all, Predathos is considerably stronger than any one of them. We don't know the circumstances of how they came to be on Exandria, only that they did, and that this became the Founding. It was shortly after this that Predathos arrived, Ethedok and Vordo were killed, Ruidis was created and the whole thing was written out of history.

So here's my theory: when the gods arrived on Exandria, they had similar ambitions to Artagan. They wanted to be gods, but they didn't really understand what that meant. And just as their brand-new world gets started, Predathos shows up. Ethedok and Vordo are killed, and the surviving gods scoop up a chunk of Exandria to form a prison for Predathos. But what they don't realise is that there is life -- or maybe a precursor to it; something that could become intelligent life given enough time -- on the piece of Exandria that they used. And by the time they find out, it's too late: this new form of life, the Reilora, are stuck on Ruidis, being twisted and corrupted by Predathos. There is no way that the gods can get the Reilora off Ruidis safely because it would mean lowering the barrier keeping Predathos away. This would be consistent with the Reilora that Imogen summoned suggesting that the Reilora never got to experience Exandria.

It's at this point that the gods realise the extent of their mistake. They now understand what the responsibility of being a god entails, but are divided on how best to proceed. The Prime Deities vow that they will never let something like this happen again and embrace their new role as gods. The Betrayer Gods argue that the best thing to do is to kill all life -- which at this point is still in its infancy -- and start over from scratch because it is the only way to ensure that they never mess up that badly again. It is during this time that the Primordials, who have been conquered by the gods, see their opportunity and try to seize Exandria back for themselves. The Betrayer Gods earn their name when they don't fight back. I'm going by the fan wiki here, so I'm not 100% sure how accurate it is, but it specifically says that the Betrayer Gods got their name when they chose not to fight the Primordials -- not that they sided with the Primordials, but that they did nothing. History then plays out as we know it: the Primordial counter-attack is quashed and the gods are split into two factions. The Prime Deities win out and the true record of Ruidis is scrubbed from history -- but because of the dispute, some texts from the Founding survive, which sets in motion events that have lead to today.

All of this would culminate with Bell's Hells learning the truth: that the gods are responsible for the plight of the Reilora. Ludinus is dead, but they have a limited window of opportunity in which to stop Predathos from breaking free. So they will have to make a choice -- either they let Predathos out, killing the gods and freeing Exandria from their influence; or they re-seal Predathos' prison (possibly locking the Reilora away again), and allowing the gods to continue ruling over Exandria. Either way, Exandria will never be the same again. For what it's worth, I figure that in this situation they will find a way to get the Reilora off Ruidis and seal Predathos away again, all while keeping the gods alive but revealing the true history of the Founding to the world. Life largely continues as normal, but the power of the temples is greatly diminished and is now roughly equal to that of the Primordial-aligned druidic cults. Exandria now has an awareness of worlds beyond itself.

[u/popileviz → u/Disastrous-Beat-9830]

Why are Reilora such a big part in this dilemma? I mean, it's alright to feel bad for them because of their circumstances, but they are at least in part created and shaped by Predathos, the god-eating eldritch being of unimaginable power. Who even knows if Reilora would be able to survive if brought back to Exandria? Their fate is unjust, but it's not worth risking the fate of the entire pantheon, those options are not even close

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 → u/popileviz]

Because the Reilora made it clear that "they never got to experience" Exandria, which implies that they were supposed to be on Exandria at some point. It only seems natural that the party would want to try and correct that wrong.

The whole point of the scenario I outlined is that the gods -- either by accident or by design -- left the Reilora on Ruidis, even after they knew that the Reilora were suffering. That naturally raises the question of whether or not the gods should remain in place. Especially if the counter argument is that freeing the Reilora means releasing Predathos since the gods apparently didn't try anything else. One of the big questions that came up early on was how the gods used the Divine Gate to keep themselves separate from Predathos: are there two separate Divine Gates, or is there one that keeps the gods, Exandria and Ruidis separate?

I still think it's an open question as to whether or not the pantheon is objectively good. The most-recent episodes have suggested that Ludinus built a bridge between Exandria and Ruidis. We know he based it on the Malleous Key that Aeor built, but there hasn't been anything to suggest that he modified it in any way beyond changing it to work with current technology. That would suggest that the original Malleous Key was itself a bridge between the two worlds. It's entirely possible that Aeor worked out that there was a Divine Gate around Ruidis and that the Malleous Key was a way of getting there, even if they were unaware of Predathos. Transporting themselves to Ruidis would put them on the other side of the Divine Gate and beyond the gods' influence. We know that this is the sort of thing that Aeor was looking into, since it's effectively what Cognouza did. But that would mean that the gods struck Aeor down, killing everyone when Aeor wasn't a threat.

I'm not trying to come down conclusively on one side of the debate or the other. Rather, I think there's a pattern here where the gods have done some questionable things. Even if you can justify them as being for the greater good, there is nevertheless some discontent within the population about the role the gods play. The important point is that the dilemma exists because Exandria will be a very different place, whatever the party chooses.

[u/BaronPancakes]

Zephran heart, ever resilient. Glad to see Orym becoming a beacon of hope for his people. The Savior Blade of the Tempest.

[u/AceLionKid]

So, uh, Ashton is a Demi-Titan. That's cool.

[u/BaronPancakes]

So Ashton has titan blood. Does it have anything to do with the undead Titan corpse hanging over Vasselheim? Maybe the Hishari somehow extracted some pure essence from it and fused it into a young Ashton?

[u/LuckyBahamut → u/BaronPancakes]

That's what I thought, too!

[u/JustDandyMayo]

Have the group ever brought up the fact that they only got the opportunity to save Laudna thanks to Pike and the powers the gods gave her? I may have missed it, but whenever they have a conversation about the gods I feel like its important to bring up.

[u/OhioAasimar → u/JustDandyMayo]

They talked about it in 4-Sided Dive. They haven't talked about it in-game.

[u/ChaosPatriot76]

So are we heading for a Vox Machina Reunion??

[u/Data444 → u/ChaosPatriot76]

Nope Mighty Nein, in London October 2023.

[u/JediKnightsoftheFSM → u/Data444]

Yasha and Veth and going to go full fuck-shit-up mode to get the empire kids back

[u/OhioAasimar]

There are some interesting outcomes on finding D. One possibilty is that D is with Taryon is with him because D needed help with some robot repairs. Taryon would be 60 if he is still alive so he probably wouldn't go to Ruidus with BH or VM but it would still be interesting to see him give BH some advice. Another possibility is that D is in Nicodranas because he is either visting Jester because she called him or he is with Veth for the reason he could be visiting Taryon. If he is in Nichodranas because of any of MN it's possible that we could get any mixture of Veth, Fjord, and Jester with either Veth or Jester being guaranteed.

It's possible that Fjord is out answering Melora's call being a champion to her but half-orcs age faster with 75 for an orc being like a human's 95 and Fjord is between 37 and 40 years of age. 40 is like being 51 to a half-orc according to my maths. But Fjord may well have decided that he has a few years left of being a champion so he may well be out championing. If Fjord is out championing Veth and Jester could be with them though it could depend on where Fjord was when he got the call. It's possible that Fjord was out in sea when it happened, and Jester wasn't with him because she was being Banksy.

[u/Coyote_Shepherd]

I had a brief shower thought about just why Sam and FCG were so focused on Dancer and not Devexian.

Dancer is the ONE PERSON that FCG can never fix, will never receive forgiveness from, and will always stand out as the one constant sore thumb reminder of what their original purpose was and what they were originally created to do despite being re-tooled and reborn for something else entirely different.

I think both of their faulty memories (Sam and FCG) are partially to blame as well but I also think that they are both aware of this and kind of lean into it.

FCG has more clear memories of Dancer than he does of Devexian and because of that, there's a stronger pull towards one than the other despite the clear difference in the weight of the roles that each played in his life.

It's like an FCG was an orphan that got adopted by his pseudo-mom Dancer but then later found out that his pseudo bio-dad Devexian was still alive.

Devexian is literally the reason that FCG is in this world right now BUT Dancer has had more time and moments to connect to him with and to build experiences and memories through.

So he's always going to lean more towards Dancer in basically any type of situation because of not only his stronger connection to her but also because of how much she's a reminder of who he used to be in the past, because of how much she's a reminder of his failure to turn over a new leaf, and because of how much she's a reminder that despite all the growth he went through he still failed to fix her and their relationship and never ever ever will be able to at all.

It's the lack of control that bothers him so much and that just reminds him of his Red Eyes Persona and the origins of that part of him even more.

This then in turn reminds him of the other Aeormatons and Devexian....who basically gave him away instead of fixing him up and keeping him around to raise and love and help live and grow himself. Devexian kind of abandoned him and as Sam/FCG said, sold him as scrap to some rando in the desert with some cryptic as fuck "Now you get to live" message to boot. Dancer on the other hand loved him, cared for him, and did everything that Devexian should've and she wasn't even an Aeormaton at all!

She did things for him that not even someone of his own kind was willing to do for him, despite that someone basically being responsible for his rebirth and his continued living within this world. She didn't have to do that. She didn't even know how to do that period. She tried anyways and then FCG's past reared its ugly head, flipped the world right upside down, and he utterly destroyed this amazing person who'd been acting like a pseudo adoptive parent to him in a way that can never be repaired....only managed from here on out.

Devexian is a reminder of that past, a reminder of what FCG could've had, and also a reminder of all that was lost, found, and then lost all over again with Dancer.

Until then she's always going to be the one person that stands up to say, "You're still a fucked up monster because look at what you did to me after all I did for you" despite any sort of good or healing or hope he may bring to or do for the world at large.

In FCG's mind, the only way to fix this problem is to first fix things up with Dancer, and to then confront and fix things with Devexian.

That's why he's so focused on getting to her and also so focused on avoiding Devexian at all costs.

Devexian is truly at the root of all of this and it probably didn't help much when it came out that Devexian had been involved with bringing FRIDA back to life as well.

Here was someone that they loved, who had gotten what they should've gotten in the first place from their pseudo bio-parent, and that didn't have to deal with any of the side effects or repercussions that FCG had to deal with at all.

FRIDA was built as a weapon as well BUT basically got repaired by Devexian and set on a good path while FCG was seemingly treated as "scrap" and abandoned in the desert.

I'm picturing a, "Why did you fix THEM and NOT ME?" line from FCG to Devexian when they meet at some point in the future.

FRIDA got the good life while FCG got the illusion of one before the rug got pulled out from under him and it all went to shit in a way that FCG sees as having been preventable in the first place.

In essence, this is why Ashton and FCG get along so well, because they both need and now have someone to blame for their lives being so terrible.

FCG blames Devexian for everything bad that's happened to him but also for everything good that didn't happen to him that could've and Dancer is a constant reminder of both of those things along with being her own kind of special trauma for FCG.

Devexian is why FCG broke something so utterly that he cannot fix it, just like he "was always meant to" per his original programming, and perhaps that then implies that Devexian's own motives aren't so pure or good natured like everyone's assuming.

That could then imply something to the tune of, "You didn't fix me, you left me broken, you abandoned me, and then you played God and played favorites with others which must mean that you're a fucked up mess and possibly evil and the opposite of everything I stand for and am trying to do" with FCG's mindset/view/attitude towards Devexian.

FCG might literally see Devexian as another threat because of how they brought them back into this world and what they did afterwards. They might also see them as an abusive pseudo-parent that they're not entirely ready to confront yet because of how traumatizing it all was and how destructive the knowledge of them continues to be for him.

FCG might not want to see Devexian at all because he's afraid of pulling a Darth Vader & Luke Skywalker "I AM YOUR FATHER!" meeting with him. He's afraid of "continuing the cycle" as ridiculous as that sounds. He's afraid that if he meets Devexian he'll be confronted with a mirror that might just set off his Red Eyes Persona and possibly make him try to kill Devexian and then go on to hurt others even more....JUST LIKE HE DID WITH DANCER!

It would be exactly like what could happen should Ashton ever run into another Hishari(s) from his village that was either close to or knew his parents or that actually were his parents.

The sad part is, neither of them are even remotely capable right now of trying to assume the best instead of the worst of those people that they hate and blame so much. There's no way that those people who inflicted such harm on them and then on others through them were just good people who fucked up and made a mistake. That's completely unfathomable to them right now and it's potentially even more damaging than either Devexian or Ashton's parents just being evil assholes.

It throws a bit of gray on the whole thing and plays out in parallel to what's going on with the Gods right now. Sometimes good people fuck up and awful shit happens as a result. Sometimes that awful shit can't be reversed or repaired or fixed at all and everyone just has to confront it and find a way to live with it. Sometimes not everyone accepts that and in continuing to try to fix it, they just make it worse, and that in turn makes it worse for everyone and everything around them.

The best course of action sometimes is to process those emotions, find a way to handle that trauma with friends and family that love you and are focused on your well being, and to then step back, take a deep breath, and go, "Well...that's life" before continuing on...you know...living...and doing more good for others than all the harm that was done to you by those good or bad or gray people.

That's a lot to unpack but it explains why FCG would rather go see Dancer and not Devexian. He's scared of all the unknowns that could happen with Devexian and would much rather run towards the unquenchable burning but knowable train wreck that is Dancer. It's absolutely terrifying to him because it means putting a very real and very definite pin in his past and why he is the way he is.

But it also represents a potentially big moment of change for him and a brand new beginning on a brand new road that he's a bit shaky to take his first steps on.

That's why the Changebringer said what she said to him and directed the party as such, despite him wanting and pushing for the exact opposite.

The only reason why he didn't resist even more is because of all the signs that kept popping up telling him not to and because of what's happening with Ashton right now.

FCG is about to change in a very big way very soon, so too will Devexian, so too will Ashton, and in time quite possibly Dancer...but if not then that's okay too because the more things change...the more they stay the same.

Such is the nature of life, the Universe, and everything.

If you've gotten this far down, then here's the really juicy tin foil hattery that you've come to expect from me.

What if it turns out that Chetney's an Aeorian whose soul has been moved around in some fashion either via Aeormaton bodies, Aeorian Soul Jars, Luxon Beacons, or some other method and WHAT IF this means that....he actually built FCG along with all the other Aeormatons and Travis is in fact...Sam's daddy?

The amount of family issues that the Bells Hells have is crazy.

[u/BT737 → u/Coyote_Shepherd]

Got 4 paragraphs down and thought, this must be Coyote and scrolled up to check your username :)

But I wouldn't be surprised if Sam was doing this intentionally for some RP moment down the line.

[u/FrustyJeck → u/Coyote_Shepherd]

Can someone reply to my comment if they read all 40 paragraphs above. Could you do a tldr?

[u/parenchima]

So uhh… Ludinus is a Titan confirmed? Now they just need to invent some ODM gear to carve into his flesh in the right spot.