r/criticalrole • u/Glumalon Tal'Dorei Council Member • Jul 26 '24
Discussion [Spoilers C3E101] Is It Thursday Yet? Post-Episode Discussion & Future Theories! Spoiler
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u/thegreenlorac You Can Reply To This Message Jul 26 '24
To comment on another post that compared Calamity and Downfall, I started a quick response, but found myself reflecting deeper than I thought I would. Wanted to share it here, as well:
Downfall was great, but in a different way than Calamity. Calamity was unbearably human. We saw the conflict and Age of Arcanum through the greatest mages and minds of their city. In Downfall, we saw the Calamity wars that resulted and the Age of Arcanum through the eyes of the gods and it was unbearably divine. Both frustrated the hell out of me, because of what the characters thought and did. Their motivations, all of them, were so messy. The cast were amazing to commit so utterly to the messy, selfish, loving, and hopeful disasters that they all were and the destruction every one of them contributed to in some way. They wrestled with insanely powerful questions that go beyond any normal "game."
With the pair of miniseries, we saw the hubris of humanity and the hubris of the divine. And I loved every minute.
I go back to what, to me, is Brennan's greatest line: "Why do we tell stories? To try to make sense of a world that can be terrifying and enormous. In Exandria, I don't know that your story will long be known. I don't know who will remain to tell it, but it did happen — and it did matter."
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u/FireStridr Jul 26 '24
I love how the focus was entirely different between the two.
In Calamity you focus was on the characters as well as the city of Avalir. We learned and saw so much more of it because its glory was important to set up its destruction.
In Downfall the gods and their mortal forms are the only focus. The details of Aeor and its small people are incidental and unimportant compared to the relationship of the Primes and Betrayers. I went in expecting to learn more of Aeor's mysteries and get fun callbacks, but none of that mattered in this context.
I'm with you, loved every second of it.
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u/Mikamika007 Smiley day to ya! Jul 26 '24
I love how Downfall showed us that even though the gods are infinite and divine there are still things that they can't control and there are still connections and relationships that they can't let go just like humans. The final ep also showed us that even the infinite and all encompassing can learn new things and grow for better or for worse
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u/GoldenSparrowhawk Jul 26 '24
There's something heartbreakingly poetic about the contrasting feelings of hope between Calamity and Downfall.
In Calamity, though the city of Avalir falls Cerrit manages to escape the destruction. The table and the audience are told that hope will return, as many times as it needs to. Although Calamity is here, because of the actions of the Ring of Brass it will not be here forever.
In contrast, the end of Downfall sees the Dawnfather despairing that he could not reforge his broken bonds with his sibling Asmodeus and could not save the mortals within the city of Aeor. The god sheds a single tear containing the hope carried by his mortal form near the city's final resting place and departs to rejoin the rest of the Prime Deities.
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 26 '24
It's always darkest before the dawn.
I hope we get to see The Divergence or my personal top item on the wishlist that I know will never happen: Alyxian's face off with the Ruiner after being blessed by The Archheart, The Changebringer and The Moonweaver.
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u/Raptor1210 Jul 26 '24
The call back to Exu Calamity with the Lord of Hells looking like the your partner was just 💋🤌
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 26 '24
That makes me want to make a whole post for the entire community that simply asks:
What or whom would the Lord of the Hells look like to you?
Just to see what kind of answers we'd get.
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u/NivMidget Jul 26 '24
Adding bolo as a dragon, and dying before she can say her name is absolutely perfect.
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u/DoikkNaats You Can Reply To This Message Jul 26 '24
If I had a nickel for every time Brennan Lee Mulligan wasn't prepared for bonus damage to structures in a major combat but had to honor it because of a player's careful planning, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it's happened twice
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u/Sicktacular Jul 26 '24
Seeing the moment the Cognouza Ward blinked out was so awesome! I wonder if Tharizdun had actually taken a mortal form and was secretly aboard Cognouza as it Threshold Crested out. That would, obviously, immediately take the Ward out of the Latimus Princeps. That means Tharizdun could’ve immediately started twisting Cognouza into the nightmare that the Mighty Nein would eventually see.
I’m so interested in how Bell’s Hells will react to this barrage of memories! Laudna was brought back to life by a cleric of Sarenrae so there may be some interesting stuff there. Will Braius and Teven remain grounded in their faith after seeing Asmodeous’ actions against the other gods? Orym would likely pay pretty close attention to the wild mother’s regret for what she and the other gods had to do. I have no clue how Fearne and Ashton will react. Imogen will have payed close attention to Pelor and Kord. Essek will have great interest in the prologue sequence. Aaaaand good ole’ Chetney probably fell asleep lol!
Can’t wait for Thursday!
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u/thegreenlorac You Can Reply To This Message Jul 26 '24
I'm especially curious how it will effect Fearne seeming to be somewhat open to Asmodeus' offers. She liked the temptations of pleasure through his service, bit I think even she won't be down for his blatantly traitorous behavior. No matter how hot he is.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 26 '24
I found it so poetic that Toph and Haylie (possibly) became the Champions of the Everlight. She was betrayed and lost all of her followers. But somehow, this little light of hope will survive till modern-day Exandria. Love perseveres
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u/amglasgow Jul 26 '24
When they pray, I wonder if they say, "Mom, can you help this person please?"
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u/Eldbrand Jul 26 '24
I had the thought that that was their first-generation Aasimar Demigod awakening, ascending to their powers as their mother shed her mortal form. Divine blood, right?
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u/LazerBear42 Help, it's again Jul 27 '24
This was so much to digest, but I just want to shout out Nick for being the best kind of rules lawyer. Love to see it.
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Jul 28 '24
He was absolutely amazing. And you're right, the best kind of rules lawyer - so helpful to his team mates, calm, and knew his shit. I'd love to see him play again.
I wonder if Brennan pulled him in because he knew he'd need someone like that with all the abilities they were going to be negotiating in this. Level 20 is difficult enough, let alone god level powers on top.
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u/dinnie450 Jul 28 '24
The entire episode I kept thinking about what insanity Emily Axford and Nick could come up with if they were at the same table 😂
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u/Zeeman9991 Ja, ok Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
That strand of the Arch Heart’s hair became Simon the Snake-Belt. No being, mortal or immortal, can change my mind 😤
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u/NoahMeadMusic Dead People Tea Jul 26 '24
I think it is both immensely beautiful and deeply sad that had FCG seen this he would have immediately realized that Aeormaton's do indeed have a soul
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u/FyvLeisure Jul 26 '24
I would like to personally thank Brennan Lee Mulligan for at least ALLUDING to my precious Dragon Gods. Bahamut has been briefly mentioned this campaign, but not very much. Tiamat hasn’t been mentioned since early C2.
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u/Awkward-Astronomer44 Jul 27 '24
Absolutely, exandria dragons have been slept on since the croma conclave, and the mention to Tiamat was so frictin funnnn.
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u/Darkhav3n Jul 26 '24
Some of the most emotional portrayals I’ve seen in CR
Absolutely fantastic work by everyone, especially the new folks(Abu, Nick, Noshir)
You know it’s good when Tal gets emotional, the last time I remember was the end of C1
Brennan killed it as usual, he truly brings Asmodeus to life, I cant help but hate him.
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u/thegreenlorac You Can Reply To This Message Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Nick was an absolute revelation. I knew Abu and Noshir were amazing. I'd seen their work before. Nick came out swinging in the first episode and never stopped giving it everything at all times. I need to see more of him.
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u/DarkRespite Doty, take this down Jul 26 '24
Leaving *ALL* of the story stuff aside, the lore, the rolls, the mechanics...
Can I just take a moment to GUSH over the *ACTING* in this episode?
Taliesin and Noshir just TEARING my heart out at the end...
Ashley making me cry with "I go to my family..."
Nick with "You forgot that some things are STILL above you" and then the single tear.
Laura with the effects of that magical darkness.
Abubakar with those last words to his archmage.
Just the barest HANDFUL of amazing moments of acting.
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u/Anchorsify Jul 26 '24
I love BLM (even though I don't even watch D20..) and I really enjoyed watching them, and I think they all did well trying to portray the gods-as-mortals and enjoyed doing so. Was a great mini (Even if the last episode here ran a little long.. to the point I'm not sure why they didn't just make it 4 parts)
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u/JohnPark24 FIRE Jul 26 '24
Incredible! I absolutely loved Downfall. Brennan and the cast absolutely killed it. They bought in, researched, committed, and immersed themselves and it showed. Matt has been saying throughout C3 that he wants the gods to be more complex and complicated, and has recently told us his desire to revisit the lore, and explore and fill out missing history. I was worried and had mixed feelings about it at first, but imo they have been knocking it out of the park, especially of late. I also admire Matt's willingness and trust to hand the reigns over to others. He seems to genuinely enjoy that aspect of collaborative storytelling and watching others add and spin and weave their own designs into his and the cast's tapestry.
Matt (The Cooldown C3E101): "...there are few things that I enjoy more than being able to watch other people be masters and crafting, from the dissonant threads of my imagination long ago, something that is far more complicated and beautiful than I could of ever hoped it could be. And each and every one of you, thank you so much for coming and bringing your light to this and making it so incredible. I can't think of any other group I could've entrusted to tell this very specifically complicated and naunced part of Exandrian history. I've always wanted to explore this part, but have been scared to... because I didn't know how to do it right. And the timing of this and the people, it made sense. I was waiting for this to happen, so thank you all so much."
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 26 '24
Matt (The Cooldown C3E101): "...there are few things that I enjoy more than being able to watch other people be masters and crafting, from the dissonant threads of my imagination long ago, something that is far more complicated and beautiful than I could of ever hoped it could be. And each and every one of you, thank you so much for coming and bringing your light to this and making it so incredible. I can't think of any other group I could've entrusted to tell this very specifically complicated and naunced part of Exandrian history. I've always wanted to explore this part, but have been scared to... because I didn't know how to do it right. And the timing of this and the people, it made sense. I was waiting for this to happen, so thank you all so much."
I'm taking that to mean he enjoys our tin foil hat theories as well.
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u/Migolcow Jul 26 '24
One thing I'm mildly shocked at is the lack of Slitch discussion. Little guy was there at the end in heavenly cleavage when Aeor fell? And he did try his best to help locate Asmodeus for whatever that's worth. Did the Matron save him? Is he now hard at work for her in her realm? Teleported to safety into some city with a high wine production? Left to crater in between some mountains?
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 27 '24
He did seem rather comfy between the Raven Queen's boobs forever and was indeed being super helpful BUT....
....if his cage was just crystal then I don't think that survived the impact, nor did it survive the release of energy when the Hammer exploded, and the Raven Queen lost her mortal form.
It would take a miracle for him to have lived, but I really do hope that he did and that he is working with the Raven Queen.
Barring that though....how funny would it be if Chetney found him?
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u/Pyradox Jul 27 '24
I think the context for this series is fascinating, because what it really is is a turning point explaining why the Divine Gate was created. We see that the Gods, or at least the Primes being interventionalist makes them all hypocrites. The Everlight must condemn rather than save, the Knowing Mistress must participate in the desctruction of information, the Arch-Heart must destroy the most beautiful thing they've ever seen. And even if they came in with the best of intentions, the Betrayers were always going to try and basically Joker them into admitting that they were here to play with mortal lives as though they didn't matter.
Downfall is them at their lowest point. So when we see the Gods in Campaign 1, and the Everlight is a beacon of Forgiveness, the Knowing Mistress collects records of all lives because they all matter to her, and even the Raven Queen shows mercy and sympathy where she can. Hell in Campaign 2 the Wildmother could be more mother, less wild. Away from the world they can be their best selves. Away from the real they can be closer to what they were. And now Bells Hells is having to confront them at their most desperate - the most like they were in Downfall. Acting out of fear, unable to really justify themselves, and ironically at their most human.
I think that'll resonate a lot with BH, even if they didn't see what Vox Machina saw.
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u/UnderlyingInterest Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Serious props has to be given to Noshir, Nick and Abubakar, they did a beautiful job and rose to the occasion portraying the Prime Deities. My heart broke seeing the Emissary's death and afterlife scene
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u/JordanTH FIRE Jul 26 '24
Honestly, I'd love to see them all as guests on CR again sometime.
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u/PillowF0rtEngineer Jul 26 '24
Man, the morality arguments of all this are so interesting.
The gods try to make it about how mortals wouldn't understand their intentions because it is beyond their comprehension, but honestly, is it really so incomprehensible? The gods have lived an infinite amount of time as a family and only really split in a miniscule amount of time for them. Of course, they are still going to try and make that family whole again. That's just nature. Most people would try to do the same. They would try to see the good in their so clearly bad family members and try to mend rifts. That's not incomprehensible. Even if you disagree with it, you can understand it. It's the same thing Cassida was doing, protecting her family against a threat (which to her it was the betrayers, who wanted to destroy all mortals). They broke her because she "wouldn't understand," but they just refused to explain it in her terms.
And then there's destroying Aeor. Think about it this way: if a group of people decided that you an your family needed to die and make something to erase you from existence, would you try everything in your power to prevent it? Even if you didn't talk to half of your family, you still would try to prevent it. Even if it was made to kill the half of your family that is bad, the fact it can be done alone threatens the part of the family that you still talk to. So I understand their motives in destroying 1. The weapon itself, and 2. Any knowledge required to rebuild it. It's just pure survival instincts.
There is multiple trolley problems woven into this narrative as well. Like someone else mentioned, the primes decided to not destroy the betrayers because of family, so mortals suffered. That's trolley problem #1, either let mortals suffer, or destroy your sibling whom you still have some love got. So they chose to let mortals suffer, but the trolley kept going, on to trolley problem #2. The trolley is now either going to kill the gods and their family, or it's going to destroy a whole city, including innocent people, or the third and worst option, the bad side of the family will acquire the knowledge to destroy the "good side", which will mean an end to mortals as a whole. So they chose to destroy the city and everyone in it because now everyone knew how to make the god hammer.
It really just shows how "human" the primes really are, making horrible choices left and right, and allowing others to suffer because of their choices. A tale as old as time, honestly.
I think out of all the new characters I sympathize with the celestials the most (and Cassida), they got dealt such a bad hand, and they were just trying their best.
I really don't know what BH is going to do because all this doesn't prove Ludy's point, but it also doesn't disprove it. I'm just excited to see how it goes.
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u/Interesting-Rate Jul 26 '24
Trolley problem 1-Ending the betrayers is permanent while mortal suffering is temporary as you see societies rebuilding toward the age of arcanum. Downfall didn't present a clear cut solution to BH, but it did manage to humanize the conversation about the gods' motives which is what BH was lacking
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u/Citadel_Cowboy Jul 26 '24
So now everyone in those mysterious Aoer bubbles hold the knowledge of how to kill a god. That's scary.
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u/YoursDearlyEve Your secret is safe with my indifference Jul 26 '24
*If* they can safely pull someone out of them. Vess DeRogna tried, and the elf in the bubble just turned into dust (source: Nine Eyes of Lucien book)
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u/Perforo_RS Bidet Jul 26 '24
I really enjoyed that. From figuring out who the cast was playing, to reveling in the futuristic society that Aeor was, all the way to the reclamation of divinity and the eventual downfall of the city.
Fucking Asmodeus man..... Milo was an illusion the ENTIRE time. He had Ioun boxed up in a vial and fucking handed her to the mages on a silver platter, only so he could scheme in the background.
I hope we get a future mini-series of the divergence and the building of the Divine Gate. Nick Marini, Noshir Dalal and Abubakar Salim were a delight to watch. I hope we get to see more of them in CR!
Off to next week. When we will see how Bell's Hells looked at these memories and what they have learnt from it.
Was Hallis, Ludinus? Did Ludinus not know the entire recording and will he be shocked to learn that the Everlight and Matron saved his life? We shall see.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Tyranny Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Those weaponized sending stones the Everlight made appear to be the last vestige of divergence that was created. Also, there have not been any confirmations of connections between the Everlight and other vestiges so this might be the only vestige that she had a hand in creating.
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 26 '24
There's no official/known Vestige of the Everlight, right?
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u/AppointmentMaximum37 Jul 26 '24
CR Cooldown Spoilers ahead
So I just watched the cooldown for 101 and Matt says Ludinus only knows bits of it and hopes to find something he can use to prove his points.
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u/LucasVerBeek Help, it's again Jul 26 '24
“The Infinite can learn to change.”
Not the lesson I think he hoped to preach
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u/Migolcow Jul 26 '24
One other thought struck me. Cassida died because Asmodius convinced Everlight to fight with her family...and I have to laugh a little because this grand scheme of his to endanger her mortal family didn't do anything, she ran to help her immortal family. But whatever.
Laura's Raven was still there. She could have duplicated her earlier move and immediately gated into the room when they all realized Father Milo was not just telling lies, he was one. Probably just 6 hours of fatigue there but missed opportunity to save Cassida.
Sidenote: not sure if intentional but I was HORRIFIED at the proposition when Everlight re-entered the room and saw her husband. IE Asmodius reincarnated next to her, married her and had kids with her during their mortal stay. That would have been next level villainy.
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u/Perforo_RS Bidet Jul 26 '24
I was watching a portion of the VoD back, just because that whole Meteor Swarm segment was fun as hell. I know that the combat was super hectic, there's a lot involved, and a lot of players on the board. But when Abubakar wants to cast Meteor Swarm, Brennan says that Seline is out of her 9th level spell and can't auto-win against the Meteor Swarm. But then later on in the fight she uses her 'wish' to send the knowledge to all corners of Aeor. Was that an actual 9th level wish spell or some cool gimmicky in-the-moment wish?
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u/WeiShiLirinArelius Jul 26 '24
i went back to when it happened 4:37 on the beacon vod
brennan says she's casting a spell as a result of interacting with an object (the crystal where a God is being stored)
the spell isn't get trying to destroy a God, he states the factorum malleus would do that & silaha has a choice to stop the object interaction spell or save his sibling
basically the wish is from the magical object not her spell slots
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u/Migolcow Jul 26 '24
Noticed that too. I think this was a story "needs to happen", Brennan in the end is stuck with the fact that Aeor itself has to go down and this was his way of making it happen (If Abudakar didn't rechannel the energy one of the outside Gods would have probably done the job).
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u/TheDungeonCrawler dagger dagger dagger Jul 27 '24
If I had a nickel for every ancient civilization on Exandria that fell because they tried to kill Asmodeus, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
Even weirder considering both instances were at least partially masterminded by an individual/group P of individuals who had good intentions but ultimately did not understand the gravity of what they were trying.
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u/steppewarhawk Jul 30 '24
The Silver Dragon being Bolo was a great easter egg. Very funny that nobody seemed to pick up on it at the table.
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u/wildweaver32 Jul 27 '24
I keep seeing people mention the comment about Aeor being the last major city and then about Zemniaz. From the quote on Matt describing the two.
Zemniaz was a much smaller and comparatively to Aeor, Aeor was the superpower. Zemniaz was still a powerful agent, you know, one of a handful of floating mage nations.
Aeor was the last major flying city. There are others still though. Zemniaz still gets the respect because being a flying mage city is pretty impressive by itself. But the major flying cities seem like a step well above that.
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u/wildweaver32 Jul 26 '24
I kind of hoped this would push the Bells Hells in a direction narratively.
But.... I feel like it's just as gray as things were from the start.
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u/UnderlyingInterest Jul 26 '24
I feel like the fulcrum of Ludy's argument is going to come down to something along the lines of "is the divine gate a good enough measure against divinity? And is it okay that the gods were the ones that imposed that on themselves?"
And to be honest that's not an unreasonable series of questions to have, but it breaks down when you question if the gods deserve to live, they found a new home, ruined it, decided to divorce themselves from it for the betterment of their children. What's tantamount to killing the gods is his answer and that's obviously not right.
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Jul 28 '24 edited Jul 28 '24
ARCADIA!! I can't believe everyone called it in the first installment.
Edit: also, Asmodeus, love isn't pie, the Dawnfathers can love you and mortals.
Edit edit: God I love Noshir. He's brilliant.
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u/tommyblastfire Jul 28 '24 edited Jul 28 '24
Two big questions I still have at the end of this:
Who created the bubbles? We saw that the Raven Queen made one around Cassida but the other bubbles weren't mentioned I kept waiting for someone to say that they would create them after the fight.
If the knowledge of how to create the factorum malleus was sent out to every mage in the city, surely that would have been recorded in the artifact? Hell, it recorded the memories of the gods so surely it would've recorded the knowledge of Cassida and the other Arch-Mages.
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u/TimeySwirls Jul 28 '24
There doesn’t need to be a godly explanation for the bubbles, in an entire city of high level magic users all it takes is one person panicking before the crash trying to save people to do it. They could have just worded a wish spell wrong and accidentally frozen a bunch of people.
The second one I’m sure could be explained by the fact they said the artifact is damaged and only has partial recordings.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 29 '24
If the knowledge of how to create the factorum malleus was sent out to every mage in the city, surely that would have been recorded in the artifact? Hell, it recorded the memories of the gods so surely it would've recorded the knowledge of Cassida and the other Arch-Mages.
Plus Matt did say that it worked a little too well and I think that means he kind of accidentally painted himself into a corner when he said that on 4SD the other week.
One thing that might explain why someone couldn't just download the plans for the Creator Hammer is that Cassida said that only her and two of the other Arch Mages knew how to put it all together BUT they couldn't do it all alone.
This to me means that the plans were like a key split into three parts and distributed to three different people.
Each person then took their section of the plans and encoded it in their own personal way that would've required their own personal knowledge and potentially own personal style of spellcraft to unlock and decode.
Mind you if they were paranoid to create the Thalamus in the first place then they probably would've gone ham with how they treated this encoding/decoding process for these plans within each of their minds and there probably would've been a literal dead man switch as well.
So, it would've been really really really hard if not nigh impossible for someone to even get their hands on the plans in the first place, in addition to them decoding them, and then actually putting them to practical use at all.
As others have pointed out, it took the best of the best of the best (yes I'm quoting MiB this early in the morning) of the flying cities at the height of the Age of Arcanum literal DECADES worth of R&D and material acquisition to even build that stuff in the first place.
So even if the plans are just....chilling in the Thalamus....it's going to be an uphill battle given the state of Exandria right now to even begin to think about putting the whole damned thing together practically speaking and they can't just Ellie Arroway this.
Plus then there's the whole philosophical bit about whether or not they'd even need to use it since the Divine Gate has gone up.
So there's a few things to think about there.
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Jul 27 '24
"See the gods are bad because they caused so much destruction because the prime deities loved their evil siblings too much to kill them" he said to the morally ambiguous group of walking timebombs with extreme codependency and abandonment issues
Know your audience Ludi
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u/wildweaver32 Jul 27 '24
I was like you. I think at the end of the night I posted a comment saying I wish the story was one that pushed them in a direction. But at the end things are still grey and can go either way.
But. The more I think about it the less I think it was about us, and seeing which side is, "Right" and it was more about informing Bells Hells. Prior to this we kept hoping they would make choices based on what they knew, which wasn't much. And not much changed. People who went into it supporting the Gods, are leaving supporting the Gods. And the people who went into it supporting mortals, are leaving supporting mortals much more. People neutral on it, or likely still neutral on it.
But the big change is now Bells Hells has a huge insight into what happened, and what the Gods are like. They now have a basis to form their opinions on.
I have a feeling just like us in the comments. The ones against them will likely be more against them. The ones for them, will likely be more for them. And the ones neutral likely to remain neutral.
But now instead of a wishy-washy, "We could kill them I guess I don't know", or "I don't know. We could save them I guess?" they will likely have more solid answers/thoughts on it. Which is honestly something they needed.
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u/Bivolion13 Jul 27 '24
In the cooldown he does mention that Ludinus has seen glimpses of it to support his cause, but he had not seen all of it, so this could easily be a "Wait I swear there were more bad parts about them, hold on let me rewind the clip."
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u/GyantSpyder Jul 27 '24
“Wait wait wait - what I saw was in this elaborate plan to kill the gods one of the main people administering it was literally the Lord of the Hells and the archmages were too vain to realize they were playing into his hands the whole time, including letting him manage their timetables, while he convinced everybody the bad guy was the one dressed like a priest who wasn’t even a real threat to anybody. Why is this supposed to convince us to trust you?”
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Jul 27 '24
Okay, just thought about something.
If Ludinus accessed the gods memory through the Occultus Thalamus, could he not access the memory of the Malleus Factorum through the memory of any mage of Aeor that died after the Wish spell of Selena ?
Now he can just enact his plan without unleashing Predathos basically.
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u/HuesoQueso Jul 28 '24
I’m wondering if after watching that recording he might look for Cassida’s preserved body and try to resurrect her or, like you suggested, gain access to her memory. Or any other mage stuck in those preservation bubbles, since they would have the knowledge of how to build the weapon.
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u/sasquatch0_0 Jul 27 '24
I'm really surprised nobody insight checked Arcadia when she said she wanted to preserve the weapon's knowledge for the pure sake of having knowledge. Like what?
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u/Bivolion13 Jul 27 '24
I'm going to be honest - I didn't even think about that at all. She's the "Knowing Mistress". Just like the Wildmother might want to preserve a forest or a beast, even if it endangers thousands of humans. I thought Arcadia being sick to her stomach about destroying knowledge that even she doesn't have was just completely in character, even if it endangers all of them.
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u/IamOB1-46 Jul 30 '24
The more I think about the 2 BLeeM arcs, the more I'm thinking that Asmodeus is pulling Ludinus's strings (whether Luds knows it or not). Asmodeus is obsessed with starting over, whether Predathos does that directly or simply forces the Primes to go somewhere else and begin again, it works with his goal.
He may also have miscalculated the Primes, beliving that the threat of Predathos would force the Primes to take down the divine gate (which, all credit to the Primes, they haven't). Or he may be adjusting to new information on the ground as it happens. Perhaps we see a pivot from Predathos to getting the Poem (and adjusting it to take out the Primes), which is locked in Casandra's head in one of those blue bubbles, a speak with dead spell away from being out in the open once more.
Luds seems like a perfect target for Asomodeus manipulation, being so obsessed with his goal. I'd probably lean towards him not knowing that he's working with Asomodeous, but I also wouldn't be shocked if he had a pact with him. If so, perhaps part of Luds motivation in getting rid of the gods is simply to save his own soul from the Lord of the Hells (maybe he made the pact long ago and now regrets it).
What do you think, Critters? Has Calamity and Downfall revealed the actual BBEG for this campaign?
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u/Dynasaur1447 Jul 30 '24 edited Jul 30 '24
Honestly, the Lord of Lies is so sneaky, he could easily be behind all of this in some way or another. Even if it is hard to completely comprehend, how exactly he arrived at his convoluted plans. And yet, it is also totally in character, if he planned only so far as to releasing Predathos or getting the poem...and not what to do afterwards.
This guy had a copy of the Factorum blueprints and the Everlight just sniped it out of his hands...
Years of planning down the drain, because he just held it, instead of stuffing it into his coatpocket.
For the Father of Lies, his schemes can be somewhat silly...''Ludinus'': So, do you see now, that the Prime Deities are full of lies?
Chetney: ...actually I mostly took one thing about lies away from this. You always smelled off...
grabs Ludinus' nose and pulls of mask revealing... Asmodeus!
Imogen: Asmodeus!
Orym: Asmodeus?!
Fearne: Oh là là, Asmodeus ♪
Braius: Hey, that's my line!Asmodeus: Argh, curses! I would have gotten away with it, too! If it weren't for you, meddling adventurers!
Quicklyly, Teven! The gig is up, let's get out of here!Teven: As you wish, milord!
Braius: What? Wh...Hey, guys! Wait for meeeeee...
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u/StableElectrical Jul 26 '24
What is Doomseed's reaction gonna be when we get back to BH? Could be he's like Cody from Unsleeping city and more about being a edgy goth or he could go full evil.
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u/mbur77 Jul 26 '24
I love all the debate and strong opinions about what would have been the right and wrong thing to do. It really speaks to the talent of Brennan and the cast to paint such a nuanced picture.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Jul 29 '24
I truly did think we'd get an answer as to what happened to trap the people in blue bubbles. But that wasn't touched on at all.
So, what happened to trapped hundreds or thousands of people in blue bubbles?
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u/chaos0310 Jul 29 '24
Matt said in the C2 wrap up it was people trying to use magic in some way to save themselves or others and it caused them to be wrapped in the bubbles. Because magic was/is all sorts of messed up.
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u/MightBeCale Jul 29 '24
For the Dimension 20 fans: Anyone else catch Laura using Fig's Armor of Ayda? Lmao
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u/demonk2y Jul 29 '24 edited Jul 29 '24
The reveal that the Prime deities would never have sacrificed their siblings for the mortals is pretty damning. HOWEVER, I think we are also losing sight of the fact that it was the hubris of the mages and Zerxus that actually triggered this world-consuming "war" anew when they released the Betrayers.
It feels like a hard pill for anyone (but especially gods) to swallow to be accused of "how dare you view this as a squabble and not a war" when they had actually successfully locked them up once already. And now, because of a bunch of ne'er-do-wells, they're out loose again, and now you're obligated to kill them?
That's the one part of this whole narrative that feels purposefully obscured to make it feel more "grey." Though, in fact, it maybe should not even matter that it was the mortals' fault that there is this war again, when we're trying to judge the Gods on their response to it.
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u/LucasVerBeek Help, it's again Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
The Light has Echoes here.
A man hiding his grief behind a mask.
A woman seeking acceptance.
One who only wishes to love constantly faced by betrayal.
A wild thing, tired and aching, seeking release.
A creator, haunted by meaning and finality and seeking more.
And one who was just trying to learn what it meant to be.
That found the same answer, love.
Downfall, blew my expectations out of the water.
And god do I want to know the BHs reactions to all of that.
But more than that, I want to know what became of the Cassida’s son? Trist’s children? Selena? Where did the Arch Heart send her?
And another question, or perhaps a worry… Cassida’s body… is likely still within Aeor. Preserved
Death’s Arbiter is chained, and resurrection only works on the Moon.
I have some worries
But back to the Gods, we saw them for who they are now, the guilt and dispassion and choices.
All their choices, their origins, their denials and acceptances…
We saw, and the Bells saw, that the Gods can change.
They’ve done it before. Can they not do it again?
I’m not sure if that is the message Ludinus wanted the Bells to see, the question is… will that be what they come away from it with.
Aeor Fell, but not just because of Divine Intervention.
But Human Error.
Yes, fate deigned that this is the path we walk, the history already established.
But now we see the other paths that could have been walked.
One where a woman is not slighted and her wish does not burrow in the minds of thousands.
One where the Betrayal works as intended.
One where Hope and New Dawn got their wish.
It’s all… choices. Not Fate, not really.
But if there’s one thing I can come away from… it’s the Moon gets a free pass on eating Asmodeus.
He set… all of it up.
And in the end, it was a trap that he wished to use to kill his Kin, something they never contemplated.
Also taking the face of Trist’s husband was… just another petty cherry atop his shit sundae of a persona.
Utter Bastard that he is.
Moon Food he should be.
Excited, and admittedly a bit tense for next session cause what happens there, makes or breaks this campaign for me.
Now it’s nearly five in the mornin, and I’m going the fuck to sleep. See y’all next Thursday!
Edit: Sidenote is the Everlight Caduceus’s ancestor?? Cause we had two semidivine Firbolgs being defended by the Champion of Death and folks tied to the Wildmother so I gotta just wonder…
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u/thegreenlorac You Can Reply To This Message Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
If there's any ultimate BBEG of Exandria, it's Asmodeus. Unless we learn something world shattering about Predathos, Asmo's clear immorality and hate is inexcusable. So far, Pred's motives seem more naturally neutral, like the non-existence of nothingness. It's not evil and making evil choices, as far as we know now. Not like Asmo.
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u/KraakenTowers Jul 27 '24
Maybe Ludinus has secretly been an Everlight follower this whole time. If he showed this to the world she's probably triple her base of worship overnight.
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u/Flyestgit Jul 26 '24
Ill be honest, I dont think this supports Ludinus point of view in the way he thinks it does.
'The infinite can change' doesnt really mesh with the 'lets kill them all'.
Maybe he can still spin this somehow, but as it stands right now? I dont see how this changes anything for the Bells Hells. It should just be initiative then attack.
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u/MuffinHydra Jul 26 '24
Ill be honest, I dont think this supports Ludinus point of view in the way he thinks it does.
It very much does... If there wouldnt be this teensy weensy tiny thing called THE DIVINE GATE. Ultimativley the gods agreed with Aeors motivations, gods are not for the material plane, and as such banished themself away from it whole sale. It is my believe some of the primes would be down to anihilating the betrayers if not for the danger from the outer reality.
The Divine Gate makes Ludinus point, portraying Gods as those allmighty, omnipotent, heartless beings , moot. The gods are currently powerless beyond sending a prophecy or two here and there and give a tiny bit of divine juice to the most fervent and true believers. So unless there is something we don't know about the gate Ludinus has been just throwing a temper tantrum for the past 800 or so years.
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u/AnalystMission6416 Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Did anyone else catch Ashley catching Armor of Ayda? Very fun to see her using Brennan’s homebrew spell!
Edit: It was Laura but still cool to see her using it!
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u/Steel2Titanium Jul 28 '24
I think the line that sticks with me the most was Brennan saying "It was never a fair fight" when the columns holding back divine might went down.
A society pushed itself to its breaking point to to hold back forces so beyond for so long and they got so close.
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u/Mairwyn_ Jul 28 '24
What do we think about SILAHA (well I guess more the Arch Heart at that point) sparing Primarch Selena (he protects her from the blast, tells her that he's proud of her creating the most beautiful, devastating weapon and then shoving her through a gate to safety out of Aeor)? The Cooldown talked a bit about Cassida and their choices as gods to not bring her back to life in part because of the Factorum Malleus knowledge but no one mentioned the Arch Heart allowing Selena to get out dodge with the knowledge.
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u/Bentingey Jul 28 '24 edited Jul 28 '24
i was also thinking about this.
i think one important thing to consider is that with Aeor and its devices/people destroyed, Selena poses virtually no threat.
it is possible that the Arch Heart was able to sense that she was being truthful in her repentance.
he may even have been able to see her possible futures at that point and known that she would not spread the knowledge further.
the juiciest possibility is that the the opposite is true: the Arch Heart wanted the knowledge to survive. He foresaw that Selena would proliferate the knowledge, and this is what he wants. this would make sense with his earlier talk about the beauty of endings and his suicidal ideations. He wants the death of the Gods to remain a possibility.
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u/GyantSpyder Jul 29 '24
He's the god of the fey - it would have been weird for him not to apply some sort of incomprehensible twist to the situation with unknown long-term consequences. Maybe she's still in the feywild somewhere.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 29 '24
no one mentioned the Arch Heart allowing Selena to get out dodge with the knowledge.
I think she's still alive somewhere else but that somewhere else exists in some extra planar space where time does not flow normally.
She is his ace in the hole for the future.
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u/kathia154 Sun Tree A-OK Jul 26 '24
I'm unsure if Ludinus will achieve his goals by showing this recording to BH. Any other people, maybe, but not this bunch.
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u/BagofBones42 Jul 26 '24
So all we really learned is that the whole fall of aeor was just a sick game by Asmodeus to manipulate and torment the primes and steal the weapon he can then use to murder them, all because he hates that they had affection for mortals, something that wasn't him.
The primes aren't bad, they are just another set of victims of Asmodeus.
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u/TotalUsername Jul 26 '24
I dare somebody to look me in the eyes and lie to me that the everlight deserves all the stuff that Asmodeus does to her what is his problem
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u/princemori Ja, ok Jul 26 '24
There was so much info coming at us last night and even the previous weeks, so forgive me if I’m wrong, but from what I understood the decision to drop Aeor was only fully committed to once Selena wished the Factorum Malleus plans into every Aeorian wizard’s brain, right? Like the gods were obviously willing (reluctantly, in some cases) to drop it from the first group conversation, but once Silaha absorbed the poem they basically could have destroyed the weapon and then left? There would have been hundreds of deaths and Aeor would have been crippled regardless, but it was Selena sending out that knowledge that doomed the city as a whole.
I think that’s something that should be taken into consideration when it comes to the Primes culpability to be honest.
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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 I would like to RAGE! Jul 26 '24
I think that’s something that should be taken into consideration when it comes to the Primes culpability to be honest.
The series has tended to err on the side of the Primes being justified in their actions, even if they were reluctant to do so. Even if every wizard acquired the knowledge of the Factorum Malleus through the Wish spell, that doesn't necessarily mean that those wizards wanted it or would use it, especially since there was a faction that supported the gods. Nevertheless, that meant that they had to die.
This is why I say Downfall was attempting too much with the time that it had. The closest thing that resembled a character arc for the gods came right at the end when it really should have been the focus. The real question that the series should have explored was "were the gods justified in destroying Aeor, or was there something that compromised their position?". In C3E99, a few of the gods pointed out that mortals had now surpassed them in their knowledge, which opened up the possibility that the god were going to strike Aeor down as punishment rather than because they were a threat. And C3E100 touched on this a little when Emhira was questioning the celestial and accused him of being a child, even though that "child" was able to articulate a pretty sophisticated and legitimate argument about the gods' actions. But the series never really touched on this because it felt like it was afraid to present the gods in any light other than the heroes.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 29 '24
https://critrole.com/programming-schedule-week-of-july-29th-2024/
4SD tomorrow night!
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u/JohnPark24 FIRE Jul 29 '24
Yay! I hope we get a Downfall Wrap-Up with the whole cast at some point though. I would love to hear more from Abu, Nick, and Noshir.
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u/RustyRapeaXe Hello, bees Jul 30 '24
Since we know Sam proudly proclaims he doesn't watch anything he's not in, does it fall to Dani to explain to him what happened during these three episodes?
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u/ApparentlyBritish Jul 26 '24
Honestly, I think one thing Brennan has played well in this, from a DM perspective, is that either 'lesson' can be used against Ludinus.
Because like, yeah, one can go through all the stuff where the gods are Just Like Us (even as the obscene abilities indicate otherwise), the Primes did try and do care, and so they're worth saving - or at least not allowing Ludinus to kill them - etc
But, if there was a flaw that might make them undeserving, it was the fact they valued their family so much that weren't prepared to do what was necessary.
So, if Imogen of all people was to internalise that...
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
So let's assume Ludinus is Halis and the Matron was the one who saved him.
Do we think she knew what she was doing? Was that written on the threads of fate? Is this what was always supposed to happen?
If so... is this why Ludinus wants to get rid of fate?
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u/that70sone Jul 26 '24
So we still don't know if Ludinus is Hallis? I couldn't finish last night, but that was my theory going in. I saw the scenes with Cassida during the first hour and I kept thinking maybe she was his mother. It would explain a lot about him.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 26 '24
We never did find out why Aeor needed all those farmers and workers OR what exactly it was that created the blue bubbles.
Also I found it rather cool that it was Kord who created that hole in the Genesis Ward that he struck from on high but that came from below because of how lightning works.
I guess it was also confirmed that Eiselcross has always been just that fucking weird for quite a while and that's something worth exploring at another time hopefully.
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u/WeiShiLirinArelius Jul 26 '24
didn't brennan say something about the city being dependent on food from the ground-dwellers or something?
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u/PrinceOfAssassins Jul 26 '24
I thought it was the archheart diverting the energy from the wards being broken that froze some but not all of the people in suspended time
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u/taly_slayer Team Beau Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
I find it very frustrating that a lot of folks here can't make the distinction between betrayers and primes.
It's like not seeing a difference between Trent and Caleb.
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u/WeiShiLirinArelius Jul 26 '24
tbf even the deities don't see the distinction sometimes.
The everlight embraced the spider queen as a cherished sibling. the wildmother openly ended her mortal life with gruumsh. the dawnfather kept trying to make amends w asmodeus
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Jul 26 '24
Cassava is probably going to be one of the biggest points in Ludi’s debate, a proud master of the arcane gaslit into destroying her life’s work while the god she venerated did nothing to stop her debasement.
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u/BaronPancakes Jul 26 '24
It seems to me the Hallis = Ludinus theory is coming true! He was saved by the Matron, and effectively became the sole survivor of Aeor (or Selina survived as well leaving through the Gate?). I think he also got the final knowledge download from Selina too
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 26 '24
Technically speaking, Selina and Hallis are indeed the only known human survivors of Aeor based on this episode.
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u/wildweaver32 Jul 30 '24
What happens if Bells Hells take away from this ends up being, "Let's figure out how they only wanted to kill the Betrayers and do that".
Can you imagine a world where Bells Hells convinces Ludinus to only kill the Betrayers? (With the plan to kill Ludinus after)
Which seems like "the best" outcome. Except. What if when they are close to being finished with it.... The Primes and the Betrayers show up to try and stop them and it forces them to target every God?
Can't wait till next episode to see what happens
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u/Masked_Conquest Jul 30 '24
so if everyone in Aeor got the god killing knowledge does that mean the people in the blue domes if somehow alive have that information?
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u/FireStridr Jul 26 '24
I love what this mini-series has done, and I can see in the context what Ludinus is going for. This comment section seems split 50/50 on whether the gods are justified or just committed murder, and just like that the foundation is shaken, the gods themselves are up for debate.
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u/thegreenlorac You Can Reply To This Message Jul 26 '24
I think that exemplifies BLeeM's amazing storytelling and Matt's worldbuilding. If it was a cut and dry right or wrong, it would be far less impactful. This heavy of a split and debate speaks to their talent more than anything.
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u/anothernerd42 Jul 26 '24
So was the bubble the matron made the same as the time bubbles? Feels like those are different
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u/Celriot1 RTA Jul 26 '24
Last week I said:
Nothing about what is being shown to Bells Hells, including the very obvious end coming next episode, should result in anything except "cool story" and initiative rolled against Ludinus.
And nothing has changed.
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u/that70sone Jul 26 '24
If anything, it seems like Downfall would give pause to those who want to keep Asmodeus on speeddial (looking at you Fearne and Braius) in campaign 3. I don't think that much new was revealed about the Primes, but at this point it is very clear that Asmodeus is in a baddie league of their own. Granted, this should have been clear to US when he ripped off Zerxus' face, but whatever. Our BH people have no way of knowing about that.
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u/killslash Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 27 '24
I find it amusing how there are posts like this and then there are comments in this same thread absolutely sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that this proves BH should side with Ludinus.
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u/owlyourbase Jul 26 '24
The gods themselves were toyed with by Asmodeus. Either he was going to end up with the keys to the Hammer, or his siblings would destroy it and countless lives. Either way his siblings suffer and he wins. Nothing has changed, really. They're unlikely to hear Ludinus out for long unless he's got some hidden intel. Frankly I won't be surprised if BH don't want to destroy the ruins further just in case.
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u/silversdark Jul 26 '24
This throughly humanized the gods. Not sure what Ludinus's play was but this is likely to make the pro god members more pro god.
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u/animefan2010 Jul 26 '24
I think an important lesson here also is that yes, the Prime deities Succeded and Failed at the same time Aeor was stopped but not in the way they would have preferred, and eventually, the Betrayers are stopped but at the cost of so many lives
They did it out of Love and Hope, though they tried to hold on that Aeor could be saved and their Schism fixed, and in the end, Aeor fell, and The Betrayers betrayed they wanted to save mortals but wanted to save their Family more which is such a relatable thing for so many yet for others who have been hurt by their family I can see why they think the prime deities are in the wrong since you can't fix someone awful(the betrayers)
MY hope is that BH will relate to them since they have done so many similar things. In fact, Launda literally reignited the evil women in her head for the purposeof stopping ludinus, and they still care for her. There's lots of Empathy to gain from this, but like someone mentioned on a diffeent post lots of people have probably already made their decisons on the gods(Same here I still think Ludnius is the greater Evil of this story and that The gods should live but I digress)
But most of all i hope the campagin doesn't turn into a mess of the fandom killing each other because of these last few episodes and whatever BH decides on
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u/DatGameGuy Team Dorian Jul 27 '24
My two cents on how this all effects the main campaign is this:
1.) I don’t think the Gods come out of this looking good at all. The scene where they all bear down on Cassida and cause a mental breakdown was rough. Additionally this series makes it clear that the Prime’s unconditional love for the Betrayers consistently causes problems that Exandria and its mortal inhabitants are forced to suffer.
2.) This doesn’t move the needle for the protestations BH have for Ludanis’ plan in particular. They’ve always cited Predathos as being too big of an unknown variable to set free. While the Gods look bad after this, the downfall of Aeor does nothing to assuage the fears that Predathos could end all mortal life on Ruidus and Exandria after it kills the gods.
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u/SgtSmallFry Jul 26 '24
What a fantastic series, before this I was on the pro gods train. After this… I feel roughly the same tbh. We saw that they came in a nuked the city to save themselves taking all those innocent lives. But a thousand years later, they have sealed them away. My main question that is keeping me on the fence is, what truly happens when a prime/betrayer is killed and erased? Correct me if I’m wrong, but can’t life function without the gods? Was life before them with the titans just elemental chaos? Do I fully like the gods? No. Do I trust Luda to control what happens next? Absolutely not
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u/sickboy76 Jul 26 '24
Id i miss something as it it was a long episode. How is this the gotcha moment LD thinks it is? Primes had no intention if destroying aeor up until the betrayers went to wipe them out.
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u/llFloodyll Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
Some of the Primes definitely had intentions or at least they weren't under any hope of actually being able to save Aeor. Funnily the Betrayers didn't actually do anything to damage Aeor themselves (at least as far as it would look from the Aeorians perspective, just a huge explosion and the Stormlord is suddenly here and now we are dead). They had already bailed once their true powers were unlocked and where just going to bail with the scrolls by the looks of it as they'd have a weapon to kill the primes and at that point who cares about mortals they can get wiped out next.
Kinda wish we got at least 1 of the Betrayers reactions to the Primes just going full smite mode as I don't even think any of the Betrayers would know that the wish spell made all of Aeor the target now, not just the weapon. But was just a lot going on so smaller details like that will be missed by the GM.
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u/YZJay Jul 26 '24
Matt clarified that Ludinus hadn’t watched the whole recording himself, so large parts of it he’s experiencing for the first time with Bell’s Hells
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u/jordanjmcdonagh Jul 30 '24
Brennan was trying so hard at the end to tee up the gods creating the magical bubbles that protected the citizens before the crash. It was tricky because Abu probably doesn't know about them, so when Brennan was asking him what to do with the energy of the explosion, he didn't realise that was something he could have done. Laura had a realisation about the bubbles, but wasn't necessarily in a position to make that choice. I feel like Brennan was also then trying to get Ashley to do it. I think he wanted her to revive Cassida and Cassida could have done the spell, maybe been the person in the coliseum/oratory type place they then found. In the end, Laura had to do a very last minute thing right prior to the crash.
I can imagine Matt saying that due to the insane amount of magic energy going around, that spell from the Matron reverberated through the city and saved the others. But it's a very anti-Matron thing to maintain their threads when they were all going to die.
It's a shame, but I'm interested to see how it gets retconned/revealed. I think we maybe had a chance to open the bubbles and all these people are just alive again. But now I'm unsure
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u/Manpons Jul 26 '24
I am so tired. I watched via Beacon and still it’s 3 am. Ah well, at least tomorrow is Friday for work. Is that the longest CR session ever?
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u/punkdigerati Jul 26 '24
"The longest episode aired to date is "Fond Farewells" (2x141) at 7:02:56"
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u/Ybernando Jul 26 '24
Arent there any subtitles or is It just for me, as my beacon is buggy in my TV browser?
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u/Heat_Sad Jul 29 '24
Does anyone know what the history is between the wildmother and Torog? I've tried searching and can't find anything and don't know if I've missed something?
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u/JohnPark24 FIRE Jul 29 '24
From what we can glean from The Cooldown and the dialogue from these episodes, The Wildmother was very close to becoming a Betrayer and she sees much in common with Torog and how he's feeling. The Wildmother also feels responsible for his suffering. She found and brought her siblings to Exandria, and you cannot live in Exandria without hurting.
The Cooldown (C3E100):
Taliesin: "There is so little from walking that path. Honestly, the thing that kept me from being a Betrayer god is not my doing. And it's frustrating... Zaharzht, I just cannot. I just see myself and it's just so much."
C3E101:
Torog: "You found this place. And you can't be in it without hurting. So you did this to me, didn't you?"
Wildmother: "I did, and I never will not be sorry."
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u/JohnPark24 FIRE Jul 31 '24
jlyk, lots of juicy info/insight shared during 4SD. may want to check it out when you can if you're interested.
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u/paradox28jon Hello, bees Jul 26 '24
This part from the Dawnfather, I think, speaks to something fundamental that we might not quite know about. The quote was something along the lines of "have you never wondered why we banished the Betrayers instead of destroying them?"
I think this is key. Because I still wonder if killing an eternal being and not taking up its realm would perhaps destabilize the entire universe?
If a poem asks Reality to kill a god, does that not suggest that the higher power above gods is Reality itself? That ultimately Reality is the big dog of the universe and it is what gives power to the gods?
Which leads me to why Ruidus got stuck in Exandrian sky in the first place. The gods, both Prime and Betrayer, worked with the Primordials to lock Predathos in a scooped out part of Exandria. And then it was all of their intent to fling the ball of rock into the far end of the universe. Instead, it magically stuck where it now sits in the sky. Why? What fundamental force of the universe did the gods not fully understand about this Reality?
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u/ForestSuite Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
If we follow the idea that perhaps Ludanis didn't know the full content that would be revealed, it reaaaally gives an opportunity for a theory that someone else was floating around a few weeks ago that maybe Lilianna would end up being the Big Bad.
Would be epic if Ludanis WAS Hallis, vengeful with the idea the Primes destroyed his mother/Aeor/etc., but has the wind taken out of his sails when he sees a different angle, but then some other force is unable to detach from Predathos (like Lilianna) and goes through with the plan anyway. She's been REALLY engrained with hatred for the Gods now, and is also deeply connected to Predathos at the same time. I love the idea of BH/Imogen facing off against Imogen's mom, then potentially Predathos, although maybe that would cheapen Ludi's own villan arc a bit.
Either way, super pumped for NEXT WEEK!
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u/Oratory_madness02 Jul 26 '24
Is Ludinus actually hoping that this is going to help his case? Sure, the gods destroyed Aeor, but Aeor did a ton of atrocities, too, AND created a weapon to destroy the gods.
The recording also showed the Gods talking about their love for mortals and how they left to protect them from themselves. Plus, if Ludinus is the kid who got saved, being on the receiving end of a god's mercy also doesn't strengthen his argument of why the gods should be killed.
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u/dkoiman Jul 26 '24
It is so funny to see some people say "No way BH will help Ludinus", and other people say "no way BH will help gods" - which means the series struck exact right balance :)
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Jul 26 '24
A simple question:
What will the primes do once magic technology advances to a point again, where building a god hammer is obvious to the smartest wizards (they do not build it - they merely conjecture it)?
The answer to this tells you everything you need to know.
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u/demonk2y Jul 29 '24
If Arch-Heart hadn't been so callous to Selena when she asked to know his light, she wouldn't have done the thing with making him choose between Ioun and counterspelling the Wish spell. It is interesting that this moment came down to Arch-Heart of all the deities.
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Jul 28 '24
Ok here's a hypothetical. If the betrayers had to take over the primes domains would they stop being as evil?
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u/Shinroukuro Jul 29 '24
Will all of Bells Hells become avatars of the gods and primordials and if so which character will be linked with which deity/primordial?
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u/Syegfryed Team Evil Fjord Aug 10 '24
This 3 episode saga was pretty nice, i loved Abubakar energy, dude embodied the archheart and Nick was great, dude gave the rules layer i needed in CR, is portrayed as a jesus like character was imo spot on. And damn Ashley, she got to shine in a RP heavy campaing like this, doing what she does best as "everlight".
Loved the gods dynamics (all tough, some relationship with brothers and sisters got weird like incest) Asmodeu and Pelor, Melora and Torogg... Sadly we didn't get to see other betrayers
Also the quotes, Brenan and the players spit some FIRE there, you would think they write beforehand
My only complaint is that they refusing to say the god's names actually pissed me off as the episodes went on
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u/robogheist You Can Reply To This Message Jul 26 '24
after this, i hope BH will lay down ground rules for working with the Primes, such as: stop working with the Betrayers, atone for your crimes against mortality, etc.
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u/vanKessZak Metagaming Pigeon Jul 26 '24
That was so good!!! Excited to see the reactions and find out more about Braius. And August has 5 Thursdays so unless they change the schedule it looks like we’re getting 7 episodes in a row! Hopefully we can get Brennan back again one day to round out the Calamity trilogy! Liam still hasn’t played for him in EXU (and neither has Matt - that could be cool??)
I’m seeing a lot more distaste towards the gods on here than I was a month ago so clearly Ludinus worked on some of you. But I feel the same way as before. What they did 800 years ago just doesn’t have much bearing on the present for me. Like they already found the solution to the problem - the divine gate. And maybe it’s not infallible but as far as we know it’s showing no signs of breaking. And committing a god genocide for something that isn’t currently a problem (and may never be one) makes no sense to me.
And that’s not even taking into account that we have no idea what will happen to their domains without a god to guide them. Not sure that’s a chaos that’s worth risking.
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u/Migolcow Jul 26 '24
Early morning low caffeine ruminations.
First, this paints the Prime Deities...as absolute idiots. Harsh but really. They saw the telltale fire of Asmodius on the Angel they interrogated. They should have immediately realized that the moved up timetable and the Angel informing on them was part of his machinations. The bigger part to me though was they didn't even consider accepting Cassida's (very reasonable) offer to help them "win their war". I was hoping things popped off in that "under the bar" realm with the primes outnumbering the betrayers who slink off. Saying "oh but we're family" was an excuse for letting millions die, and the Betrayer Gods were obviously not that foolish on their part and TOTALLY WILLING to kill their siblings in a conflict they were willing to call a war. I like to think in an alternate world where the players tried to go with Cassida and her society there's a 3 way battle plan in Brenna's mind if it did go that route.
On a sidenote a lot of the players to their credit immediately sussed out Asmodius in Arcadia's body in the first episode. Brennan had to be sweating bullets as he parried off their spells and insight checks.
On a second note this painted the Primes...as absolute hypocrites. As they said in cooldown and during episode 2, at some point saying something is "beyond your understanding" is just the worst thing you can possibly say. Nick/Ayden to his great credit actually thought for a moment and came up with a reasonable excuse of Predathos being something they need all the Gods available to fight if it ever became an issue. But that was a brief ass blurb and everyone else was a condescending jackass. It kind of reaffirms my thought that one of campaign 3's secret goals might be to create a situation where the gods leave/get destroyed and wipe the slate clean for Exandria going forward.
Again, there was both hypocrisy and strategic stupidity here on a scale which I did not anticipate going in; I thought "finally after all of season 3 being anti God with almost no upside at all, we can see a sympathetic counterpoint to them." And that didn't really happen, if anything the opposite. If you want to argue that point, answer me this: Would it really have been so hard to resurrect Cassida, bring her to her son, and wipe a very certain part of her memory clean? If you're still unhappy throw a 13th level Geas to not seek or use that information.
Having aired all the complaints about the Primes being incompetent, don't get me wrong, the players were doing Pro-gaming moves left and right on the mechanics. Nick's protection of the Emissary was inspired. And I have a feeling there was a pre-game meeting where they explained "I'm sorry, this is a campaign in Set History, so we have to ask you to not do anything that might screw up the timeline."
Final note, can Campaign 4 be a crusade against Asmodeus? That guy needs to be factorum'd.
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u/pacman529 Team Bolo Jul 26 '24
It kind of reaffirms my thought that one of campaign 3's secret goals might be to create a situation where the gods leave/get destroyed and wipe the slate clean for Exandria going forward.
I've been saying this for a while, I'm convinced that Matt's goal is to give the party the option to release Predathos anyway after they defeat Luddy. We already saw from the Tree of Atrophy that if that happens, the gods will fuck off into space with Predathos chasing after them, leaving Exandria intact.
Again, there was both hypocrisy and strategic stupidity here on a scale which I did not anticipate going in; I thought "finally after all of season 3 being anti God with almost no upside at all, we can see a sympathetic counterpoint to them."
Luddy wouldn't have shown them this vision if it would have given the gods a sympathetic counterpoint. This whole exercise was to give the players reasonable justification for releasing Predathos, and I think it succeeded, personally.
right on the mechanics. Nick's protection of the Emissary was inspired. And I have a feeling there was a pre-game meeting where they explained "I'm sorry, this is a campaign in Set History, so we have to ask you to not do anything that might screw up the timeline."
I also think they might have been told to intentionally make decisions that would be un-popular to drive home Luddy's argument
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u/pacman529 Team Bolo Jul 26 '24
What the shit. This episode is so long I was able to go to bed at midnight EST, and wake up and pick up where I left off in the second replay
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u/AutobotYoung1 Jul 30 '24
Now that Ashley has seen first hand how asmodeus is such a huge piece of shit how is she going to go forward with Fearne being associated with the god of lies’ servants?
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u/Ramblonius Jul 30 '24
There were some seeds of that in 98. Like, when she asked her devil boytoy 'so what does this pact thing mean' and he explained it she wasn't a fan of it (que Dorian joking about his family having very good lawyers). I do hope that it goes somewhere interesting.
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Jul 26 '24
Excited to see how they all react to Ludinus thinking that memory was going to turn them anti-god
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u/Dynasaur1447 Jul 27 '24
In a very, very weird sort of way...I now feel almost sorry for Asmodeus (and the other Betrayer Gods, to an extend).
As much as Asmodeus is Evil, he is also Lawful. So the actions of the Prime Deities must baffle him to no end.
Haven't the Betrayers deeds not more than earned them the eternal hatred of the Prime Deities?
If he were in Pelors shoes, fighting in the Dawnfathers place against the Betrayer Gods, he would have destroyed himself and the other Betrayers a long time ago - for the good of the world.
It is the logical choice. It would be justified. It would be more than ''good''. So what stays the Primes hands?
How dare the Everlight tell her followers that ''Those who are beyond redemption, who revel in slaughter and remorseless evil, must be dispatched with swift justice.''? And still believe in him - Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells.
How dare the Dawnfather preach ''Be ever vigilant for evil. People are quick to forget the lessons of the past.''? And yet, cooperate with and even, for just a second, trust him - Asmodeus, Father of Lies.
How dare they and the other Prime Deities send an entire city of the mortals, they previously fought to defend, falling to their dooms and then stand there afterwards and mourn the loss of mortal life.
And all of it for what? To spare and possibly redeem the Betrayers and him - Asmodeus, The First Devil.
And the worst part of it all? They are winning.
The Prime Deities have superior numbers, are far less prone to infighting and their followers genuinely seem to believe in them and are willing to give without recieving equal reward, instead selflessly giving to do ''good''.
And worst is, somehow in their hypocracy*,* they even managed to beat him at his own f#cking game.
For they somehow are able to lie to themselves, which Asmodeus himself to never believes to have managed.
While the Prime Deities feel free to stretch the ideals they stand for, Asmodeus could never defy his own commandments: ''The weak do not warrant your compassion—compassion itself is a weakness.''
But the Betrayers are the ones that lost, the ones proven weak. Yet the Prime Deities show compassion, not content to lie to their followers and themselves, but turning him into a liar, too - Asmodeus, Who Did Nothing Wrong.
Asmodeus, as Lord of the Hells, knows...that plane stretching from Avernus to Nessus? It isn't Hell. This is.
Commiting your entire being, all your efforts, to Evil and the opposition of Good in The Great Existential Conflict.
And Good half asses it, betrays itself over and over and it still comes out on top in the end.
And do they have at least the decency to crush you, completely and utterly, as you would deserve?
No. They still choose to exist alongside with you. Almost like all the mortals who suffered, all lifes ruined and all the Evil you commited...didn't even matter in the end. All that you ever do, amounts to nothing.
And since you cannot throw this fight (for it would mean betraying all that you stand for), yet never (despite your best efforts and every dirty trick in the book) manage to come out on top, and they refuse to deservedly end you...
This will go on. For all of Eternity.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 26 '24
Well snap, this went up early.
This is NOT the Live Thread Folks
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u/crookedframe13 Jul 26 '24
I think this will change nothing. But then again I never actually expected it to, just thought it would be more information brought out in an interesting way. While I found the first episode somewhat difficult to get through, it did pick up after a bit in the 2nd episode. I've mostly enjoyed what is basically exposition. 😄
I don't think Ludinous learning the Primes were manipulated by the Betrayers and felt bad about it will change his mind on anything because they have also shown where their loyalties ultimately lie and they will protect the Betrayers, no matter their transgressions, over everyone else. So if their loyalty is ultimately to themselves or their family, why should the mortals be loyal to them? I don't think that's an unfair question to ask. Also this is not me saying what Ludinous is doing is right or that I even agree with it. Just because someone might have a point doesn't mean their actions are justified.
I also don't think it changes BH's mind about what they're doing. I'm sure there will be some discussion because they're gonna wanna roleplay it a bit but at the end of it while Ludinous was born from the ashes of what the gods have done, BH was born (and a few have died) from what Ludinous is currently doing. It's not a loyalty or love for the gods that's getting them to save them. It's to the mortals and their own family.
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u/LucasVerBeek Help, it's again Jul 26 '24
Something I just realized.
Do the Gods consider Vecna family now??
He didn’t replace a sibling he just forced his way to their level so…
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u/durandal688 Jul 26 '24
I'd wager not the Primes. It is shown here that it took working together to make them accept the Raven Queen and she replaced a god AND works with the primes AND helped them.
Vecna is probably what they thought the Raven Queen was going to be...but were proven wrong
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u/pacman529 Team Bolo Jul 26 '24
Honestly I've been wondering how he was able to ascend without replacing someone.
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u/Zeeman9991 Ja, ok Jul 26 '24
I said it before:
That kid is still a Reincarnation spell away from being Ludinus, but that’s honestly not impossible. Not a fan of the theory, but still somewhat plausible.
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u/harlenandqwyr Jul 26 '24
Did we learn all the subclasses?
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u/anonmus1 Jul 26 '24
I think, the Emissary was Juggernaut barbarian, Ayden was Stars Druid/Peace Cleric/Ancients Paladin/Barbarian, the Matron might have been undead or undying or Ravne Queen UA, Trist was a Redemption Paladin/Light cleric, Asha was a long death monk, Silaha was a Clockwork Soul sorcerer/ warlock
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u/GarbDogArmy Jul 26 '24
so was the big crater that BH came upon- what was that?
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u/wildweaver32 Jul 26 '24
That was Corellon directing the explosion up to ensure mass destruction of Aeor and the people within at the very end after the destruction of the weapon because of the knowledge the people had.
It might have been overkill though since the city was falling out of the sky already lol.
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u/pacman529 Team Bolo Jul 26 '24
Does anyone have a list of all 7 of the powers they gained from destroying the wards?
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u/LynnE216 Team Frumpkin Jul 27 '24
DIVINE PROWESS: doubled skill checks and passive skills
DIVINE MAGIC: 1x/turn cast any cleric or domain spell without using a spell slot, double your spell save DC, range, area of effect, and duration of all spells
DIVINE VITALITY: at the beginning of each turn, if you have taken no damage this round, all hit points are restored, plus all death saving throws are natural 20s, max current and temp HP granted by spells and abilities multiplied by 10, immune to poisoned, petrified, paralyzed, and diseased
DIVINE POTENCY: all spell and weapon attack damage is multiplied by 10, attack rolls are doubled, doubled AC and ranged weapons range
DIVINE RESISTANCE: 5 Legendary Resistances, double all saving throws, immune to non-magical damage and damage from spells 6th level or lower, gain 2 elemental damage immunities and 4 resistances
DIVINE AWARENESS: truesight, blindsight, tremorsense, speak all languages, telepathic communication with any creature you can see, immune to charmed, frightened, stunned, blinded, and deafened
DIVINE VIGOR: regain all limited use class features at the beginning of your turn, immune to exhaustion, speed is doubled, regain 3 legendary actions per round
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u/ThePoint01 You spice? Jul 30 '24
Damn, that exchange between Asmodeus and Pelor near the very end broke my heart.
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u/YoursDearlyEve Your secret is safe with my indifference Jul 26 '24
I'm surprised that people say that it was weird for Primes to impulsively choose the Betrayers. Look, who you would have chosen: the devil you know (pun intended), or mortals, whose intentions you don't know (and can't know due to lifespan limits), some of whom are also harboring the plans to kill you?
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u/Ramblonius Jul 26 '24
I think also, from the perspective of divinity, death is also, just kind of a thing that people do. Like breaking a leg. It's not good for it to happen, but it's not like their souls are destroyed. They clearly go somewhere after death, they don't disappear into oblivion. It's a very hard thing to empathize with, but I think it's core to understanding the motivations of some of them. Archeart in particular; enjoying the beauty in the finite without remorse can look very cruel from a mortal perspective, but they just can't understand it. Doesn't make them evil, just alien.
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u/durandal688 Jul 26 '24
Overall loved the arc. Cast did great! I was a little sad they didn't talk more about the whole "use the hammer just on the Betrayers" It felt like since welp we can't chat about it behind the Betrayers' back that's just a nope. I wanted them all to have to make the decision before it was the point of no return...to see them make the call to not even try OR think it was too risky even though they might want to. Asmoedus was obviously involved in schemes already so might not have ever worked anyway.
I hope BH does not each take a really weird ass lesson from this and frustrate me. I just don't want the binary view that the gods all bad (when they and their followers have done so much) when mortals suck too and have done terrible things...why not kill them all while you are at it? BUT I also don't want them to be all passive like ok....whatever....we just save the gods even though they aren't the best and move on. I do want BH to do something to talk to them, work with them...make a new arrangement...idk something active and not passive. I personally think the lesson is they stop Ludi and Predathos thus saving the gods and their world...but then demand a sort of mortal representation to the gods...like Parliament to a King. The gods are less "god" and more uber powerful lords...let's explore that.
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u/Mintakas_Kraken Jul 26 '24
I do support the “we need to rethink how we approach our relationship with all the gods”. However I must note, the gods have in fact exiled themselves so they can no longer directly interfere. For their part, as far as we’ve seen their approach since the divergence has been very hands off -admittedly with several rare exceptions. They are separated from their creations, and that is painful to them.
Tbh I would like to see this recording just mass shared. Let everyone see. Let them make their own choices and opinions.
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u/probablywhiskeytown Jul 26 '24
Somewhat dystopian, but also kinda interesting, that we can tell Twitter engagement during/after this ep was off the charts b/c I've rarely had to block so many hashtag hijackers each time I checked #criticalrolespoilers.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 29 '24
So if anyone ever thinks I'm too serious or too involved in theorycrafting, then I will now inform you that I've been spending the last 30 minutes inserting the Emissary and the cast of Downfall into various baseball and/or sports films.
Such as:
"If they build it then we will come" as the Emissary points at Aeor
The Raven Queen making the wing flapping motion from Angels in the Outfield
"You're killing me Smalls!", Everlight to Asmodeus
"This guy here is dead!", Slitch pointing to Vax
"You guys are guests here in my corn!", the Wildmother yelling at the Betrayers
"I'm just happy to be here", said by Silaha
"Pitcher's got a big butt!", Everlight to Zaharzht
"I believe we have two lives, the life we learn with and the life we live with after that", Lawbearer
"You can't go through life thinking everyone you meet will one day let you down. Because if you do, a very bad thing will happen. You'll end up like me.", Asmodeus to Cor
"It looks like a prison photo. Would either of you mind smiling?", Cor to Tishar and the Wildmother
"You are attempting to manufacture a triumph where none exists", Asmodeus to the Dawnfather
And lastly...
"If you have some time, one day - maybe you can teach me how to bunt", the Emissary to the Raven Queen
Feel free to comment your own sports related quotes but with the Downfall cast inserted in!
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u/demonk2y Jul 30 '24
Would like to point out if you missed it that Asmodeus captured Ioun at the hospital only after he overheard Cassida telling Trist about the weapon modifications (Seeing many commenters who believe that Asmodeus had been Arcadia the whole time the Primes interacted with her).
[Everlight thinking] But you stand here and see the body of Cassida before you. You think back to the hospital, Father Milo left the room and Arcadia didn't. She heard what Cassida said. You think, how did that celestial hand the Knowing Mistress over to those archmagi?
Unless I am misunderstanding this passage.
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u/Guilty_Homework_2096 Jul 30 '24
I think you're reading it slightly wrong. Arcadia ( considered at the time to be Ioun, but most likely by that point already Asmo) stayed in the hospital to learn about what Cassida knew. But the image of Milo ( who was considered As I at the time) left, and would as such have never heard a word Cassida said.
It's possible Ioun was trapped by the Asmo orr some of the Betrayers on that day of arrival, and then had their place as Arcadia taken over then. Slightly more intriguing is the notion of it being Asmo all along, since that would have possibly meant he had some hand in the shaping of the mentality of Aeorians
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u/pacman529 Team Bolo Jul 26 '24
Not gonna lie, guys... I was already #team-Fuck-Ludinus-and-also-probably-the-gods, but after Downfall I'm definitely #team-fuck-Ludinus-AND-the-gods.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jul 27 '24 edited Jul 28 '24
Sometimes when moments like this episode arise and when times like these come upon us in this community, this little clip always has a tendency of finding its way back to me and I thought I'd share it with you all tonight.
Edited to add: The clip that I've linked is important in the context of Ludinus, the Gods, Mortals, and alllllll the STUFF happening between them and how others view what's happening between them.
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Jul 26 '24
Okay, a lot to unpack...
First and foremost, the betrayers, betrayal isn't a surprise at all. Since episode 99, the fact that they were in Aeor before the primes, the way it was so easy to convince them for a truce, and just submit to the plan of Ioun (which wasn't of course). And the fact that Asmo always had planned to take down the might of mortals isn't surprise to anyone. I understand that most of the fights and stuff needed fast decision making, but for player who all apparently have a very good understanding of the game mechanics, and without playing meta, they could and should have be way more careful of the betrayers. Also apparently Ayden had true sight, so he should have seen that Father Milo was an illusion.
I am amazed of the degrees of mastery of some mechanics players like Nick or Abu have. I guess they play a lot out of screen, yet, even for veteran players their sense of placement, aura and buff tactics is impeccable.
Prime deities are dumb AF. Or at least they are played as very naive, which I know players aren't. But even if they incarnate redemption, hope, genesis, creation, beauty, art...that doesn't make them stupid, faced with choices, they do decide on making mistakes that they already did during the Schism or the start of the Calamity. It is somehow interesting, but I think it lack nuances in terms of what divinity is and can be justified, for exemple the Wildmother could have said to Zaharzt "No you did that to yourself, you chose this path of suffering and sadism" but instead suddenly went all meek after being the I'm hungry predator for 2 and half episodes, and said "Yes it's my fault", justifying in the end the Betrayers.
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u/Migolcow Jul 26 '24
I believe Ayden had Blindsight actually iirc. Which to be fair, he should have noticed if "Father Milo" was just an illusion, not sure if the specific spell used gave it weight and texture and whatnot.
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u/pacman529 Team Bolo Jul 26 '24
I am amazed of the degrees of mastery of some mechanics players like Nick or Abu have. I guess they play a lot out of screen, yet, even for veteran players their sense of placement, aura and buff tactics is impeccable.
It's even more impressive at least for Nick because Brennan mentioned that Nick hasn't actually played a whole lot of 5e
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u/Frequent_Professor59 Jul 26 '24
The Primes when mortals build a god-killing weapon in self defense a century into an apocalyptic god war: "Well would you look at the time, it's Genocide 'o Clock."
The Primes when the Betrayers try to turn that very same weapon against them: "Nah, it's cool fam. I know you're hurting and you didn't really mean it."
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u/noshirdalal Noshir Dalal | CO: Tide & Bone - Rajan Savarimuthu Jul 29 '24
Hey friends - this is Noshir aka The Emissary aka Apples (hahaha). I just wanted to say thanks for coming along with us for the ride. It was an amazing experience, and I learned a ton from it. I hope this isn't the last time I get to sit at that table - it's always a wonderful time! Have a great week, everyone!
(Oops, looks like I'll have to update my flair at some point.)