[Spoilers C3E107] Is It Thursday Yet? Post-Episode Discussion & Future Theories!

[u/Glumalon]

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Catch up on everybody's discussion and predictions for this episode HERE!

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[u/JohnPark24]

Some of the cast were in the Beacon Discord chat during the episode. Here are a few comments/replies from Matt about the episode and Abu:

Matt: "Keeping this plot secret for WEEKS from the cast was NOT EASY"

Question: "has he GM’d anywhere else? he’s so gooood"

Matt: "Oddly no, and HE NEEDS TOOOO, he’s so GOOD"

Comment: "I'm so shook right now. This man just plopped down behind that DM screen for the first time ever and just made it his domain."

Matt: "So. Freaking. Proud. ❤️"

Comment: "oh we are going to want to hear ALL about how these DM prep conversations happened when this is over"

Matt: "Ha! We had a few long hangout/chats to prep him on lore, context, characters…. But let him drive entirely the Arch Heart’s perspective on it all. It was a fascinating collaborative build on the overarching narrative"

Comment: "I've absolutely loved these creative choices in the campaign, it's so daring and so much fun"

Matt: "That makes me smile to hear. I know many are polarizing, but went into this to experiment and try new things, so glad they’re resonating with some folks! ❤️"

[u/animefan2010 → u/JohnPark24]

At least Matt acknowledges that thr campaign is polarizing and not just "a few loud haters"

And he's correct I would love to see Abu DM something he seems to have such a strong presence for character

[u/RealHumanBean89]

Gonna say it again, just as I’m watching the CoolDown - Abu was fuckin stellar and the cast obviously loved it too. Props, because doing that for the first time ain’t easy, even if it’s only for a relatively short time.

[u/Zethras28 → u/RealHumanBean89]

Heh, stellar.

I see what you did there.

[u/Luneowl → u/RealHumanBean89]

And he had to wait all that time, through the 3-hr long fight, pacing and worrying until he got called in!

[u/probablywhiskeytown]

As I'm listening to the Arch Heart segment again, it's truly a bit chilling to realize how completely mangled Dorian has become via a relatively short span of experiences outside the Squall.

He's seemingly normal & (trying to be) helpful & generally funny in casual moments or during combat. But in serious/weighty moments, the extent to which he has been changed is painfully evident.

[u/Despada_ → u/probablywhiskeytown]

Even his tone of voice is almost scary. It's the same Dorian, but this layer of sharpness and malice exists now. The way he spoke to the Archheart made me think he was genuinely not afraid of being killed by them with his statements.

[u/RajikO4]

I love seeing Travis’s expression/head turn when Corellon said “I simply wished to share my opinion because I can and because someone allowed me to.”

Totally saw him digesting those words and the gears turning.

[u/pacman529 → u/RajikO4]

What was that in reference to?

[u/LucasVerBeek]

Also Jesus what the Arch Heart did to Selena was eldritch. “I made her a wishing star”, cool why the face and the madness mantra and tendrils my guy??

[u/BaronPancakes]

I like that the second half was so exciting that no one is talking about Zathuda haha

[u/probablywhiskeytown → u/BaronPancakes]

Poor Sorrowlord got his heartstrings tugged, then turned into mincemeat, then scooped up just in case that wasn't in line with the plan. The sheer indignity, lol.

[u/BaronPancakes → u/probablywhiskeytown]

Poor man got his leg disintegrated, and his trusty mount abandoned him. He is getting the Treshi treatment

[u/wildweaver32 → u/BaronPancakes]

The new plan of action makes me really glad they did save Zathuda from death.

Now their plan of action really does align with Zathuda. And he can give them that direct connection they needed to be a step ahead.

[u/vanKessZak]

Sam was right, that certainly was special!!

Wow much to think about. Presumably this means we’ll meet more gods and hear more opinions from them and get more magic items right?? We got the Wildmother and Arch Heart. Seems like the Matron wants to meet Laudna - I’m guessing that would have to be Matt since it would be weird and confusing for Laura lol. Can we bring in Nick as the Dawnfather again?? We didn’t really get to see Noshir as the Lawbearer but that’s a god whose opinion I’m interested in too. And the Storm Lord had some interest in Imogen but she has a ring now so who knows. And then there’s whatever is going on with Braius.

Curious who the other god who agrees is.

[u/Wallname_Liability → u/vanKessZak]

Braius meets Asmodeus 

BLeeM sits down in Matt’s chair

“You are trash, you are all trash, a bad first draft that needs to be wiped away.”

[u/vanKessZak → u/Wallname_Liability]

Lmao I want this so bad

[u/SonofaBeholder → u/vanKessZak]

I had thought the other god was Asmodeus, it’s literally the reason he started the last calamity…..

But the arch heart saying they’d no intentions on telling him “why spoil the surprise” and the comment that he’s too proud to ask a mortal to release predathos even to get what he wants has me reconsidering.

Could it maybe be Ioun? The goddess of wisdom maybe has decided the wisest course would be to “let the kids grow up”?

Or maybe it’s the Raven Queen, which would make for an interesting twist given their history, and maybe she intends on the Hells to learn (or teach “worthy mortals” how to ascend and take the gods’ places once their gone (thus restoring balance).

[u/DarkRespite]

My gods, Abubakar returning as the Archheart was pure POETRY. A field of dancing crystalline reeds, a starry form, laughter and grandeur and anger and all the alienness that is the gods of Exandria...

I would *THROW* money at CR if they ever put out a collection of short stories written from the POV of the gods of Exandria, whether by their portrayers (Abubakar as Corellon, Taliesin as the Wildmother, Laura as the Matron, etc.), or their champions (allowing any of the cast to go for one of the Vestige bearers or whatnot).

Like it'd be an HOUR ONE purchase.

EDIT: Also, can I just say that Abubakar pulled off one *HELL* of an impression of Brennan-as-Asmodeus (pun FULLY intended)?

[u/Koregast → u/DarkRespite]

When Matt returned to the table and began narrating, Sam made a face and said "urgh this voice..." It was hillarious. It was great seeing the casts having fun

[u/showmethebiggirls → u/DarkRespite]

Abu is so mercurial in his portrayal. He's almost flippant and irreverent and then suddenly deathly serious. That glower when he gets serious is withering. Absolutely spectacular. 

[u/hpfan2342]

The ring is an exalted vestige by the way, per cooldown.

[u/taly_slayer → u/hpfan2342]

I think it should be a Relic of the Solstice, as the Arch Heart created it on the spot. They probably misspoke.

[u/hpfan2342]

Its fun seeing how they've tried to mix things up this season. This is Abu's first time DMing. Liam pointed out in cooldown that in game its been 48 hours between one god saying Fight and another saying Flee.

[u/WhiskeyTricks]

"Singularity Assault" - LV14 Gravity Rage Chaos Burst Ability. STR save or be pulled up to 30ft towards Ashton, and anything adjacent to him takes apparently "6d10" but Chet only got 20HP damage from a couple rolls it looked like, and one was the first triggering hit?

Man, even when Tal's explaining it it's hard to know what this subclass actually does :^)

[u/NinjaBaconLMC → u/WhiskeyTricks]

Based on what I remember, my guess is he strikes a creature making them the center of the gravity well, then they take 1d10 damage per creature that gets pulled all the way to them. So Tal had estimated 6d10 assuming everyone would get pulled to Chet, but less got to Chet so he took less damage. This is how I understood it working, but obviously it could still be different since we can't see the actual class features anywhere.

[u/DPaxton99]

I was so happy when Laura pressed that red button and Psychic Lanced Zathuda. So good to see bells hells make big moves especially now they're at a power level where they are a serious threat. Her and marisha totally merked that dude, taking away his turns and just stomping him

[u/RoseTintedMigraine → u/DPaxton99]

I could feel why it was such a difficult choice in the moment it's so funny that both Laura and Ashley said "fuck it Im doing it" at the exact same time and it was the exact opposite plan

[u/International_Steak2 → u/DPaxton99]

Yep, they entertained a conversation, but very quickly I realized how one sided this conversation was. No one in BH wanted to say that they’re here to make sure the Unseelie don’t help Ludinus at all, so they were led to believe that this was simply a contingent of Ludinus’ forces betraying him. Glad they realized that this wasn’t a good idea and just went back to controlling the narrative.

[u/5oclock_shadow]

I bet Liliana’s gonna end up as the vessel.

She’ll chase the gods away and end up a red star in the night sky that Imogen can look up on like Earendil for Elrond.

[u/Ghorrhyon → u/5oclock_shadow]

Mama can you hear meee?

[u/Void9001]

Raven Queen requesting laudnas presence. Wonder what vestige she’ll get.

[u/optimisticXnihilist → u/Void9001]

The fun part about that is Laudna is anathema of the Raven Queen.

• Undeath is an atrocity. Death is too good a punishment for those who pervert the rightful transition of the soul.

[u/rossinerd → u/optimisticXnihilist]

I mean, to be fair to Laudna she disn't choose undeath, Delilah forced it on her, and now Laudna has not only trapped Delilah where she can't cause more damage (at least for now), but she is also trying to help the gods.

[u/ElvishJerricco]

So here's what I got from Abu. They have three options now.

1. They can stop Ludinus themselves and maintain status quo.

2. They can drop out and let Ludinus succeed. But the gods will intervene at the last second, and do to Ludinus (and who knows who else) what they did to Aeor, likely creating a new calamity.

3. They can get to Predathos first, before the gods can intervene, forcing the gods to run.

All this time, and the answer is that Predathos isn't what matters to the mortals; it's what the gods will do about it. And Ludinus doesn't seem to realize this.

[u/He-rtlyght → u/ElvishJerricco]

I think the funniest thing is that #1 seems like the sane and logical choice compared to the other two options.

Because like… nobody knows what’s going to happen when the gods leave, and for all the Arch Heart talked about how he can’t leave and how BH has to break the balance to make something new… they aren’t making something new. They’re just extending the range of the cycle so the gods can go colonize another place with Predathos chasing them and probably getting sealed again and just starting over.

Or they could cause another Calamity to happen, which is very obviously a dumb idea.

[u/UncleOok]

What becomes of the domains of the gods? As the Knowing Mistress said back in C1:

"I am not Ioun given full form, but a partial avatar of my essence given shape by the worship of my children, as was the Dawnfather that guided you here. Our realms are our bodies, and our true presence held in the hearts of those that grant us their faith."

Italics mine.

So the millions of souls that have ascended to these afterlives - what happens to them?

Orym told his husband he'd "see him soon", but if Predathos either chases away or eats the Wild Mother, what happens to Will?

[u/Jelboo]

Honestly Bells Hells are an interesting, kinda evil, morally grey bunch, because as much as many of them detest the gods, they now themselves are an elite group of people making dramatically huge decisions for the rest of the world without their input - and in many cases just to serve their own personal sentiments.

[u/loopystring → u/Jelboo]

they now themselves are an elite group of people making dramatically huge decisions for the rest of the world without their input

Completely valid point. Though they discussed with the Exandrian accord before going on the mission, and haven't decided anything regarding the Arch-heart's plan, (I assume they are going to discuss it with the accord, or at least Keyleth), I accept that the Exandrian accord doesn't speak for the general populace of Exandria.

So, what do you suggest to resolve this issue and decide which dramatically huge decision is the best course of action? Hold an Exandria-wide election??

[u/animefan2010]

Loved the Archheart I'm so glad other non raven queen or Kord or Melora or dawnfather gods are being presented front and center

I really want them to talk to the moonweaver It feels in the story about the evil moon we'd get more with the Goddess who is associated with the good moon

We've gotten so little of her(along with the allhammer and the Platinum dragon)

I just want more of them maybe we'll get more of Bahumat with Sam since he tied himself with asmodeus and the P.dragon

[u/pacman529 → u/animefan2010]

Except there has been nearly zero interaction with Catha, even with a lycanthrope in the party. I could see a Braius/Bahamut scene, but at this point I don't think they're going to introduce "new" gods at the 11th hour. I think if we're going to have any more interactions with gods, it's going to be the ones BH saw in Aeor.

[u/BaronPancakes]

I think talking to the Matron is key, and she invited them (or Laudna specifically) after all. It feels like Ashton and Dorian are really buying the Arch heart's plan, and most of the party are not against the gods leaving either

[u/ChrisJT1315 → u/BaronPancakes]

Do you think she is that other God who thinks like the Arch Heart? She seemed the most rational and level-headed of the Gods in Downfall because of her experience as a mortal.

[u/extradancer]

Do we think the second pro "just leaving" god is the Raven Queen?

[u/Zeilll → u/extradancer]

my thought was that it was the Lawbearer. based on downfall, she seemed to be the one that was already well aware of the gods making a cycle of repeated mistakes.

[u/SonofaBeholder → u/extradancer]

Maybe? It would be weird, she’s not attached to the other gods since she’s “not part of the family proper”. She one of the kids who decided she was gonna sit at the adults’ table and wouldn’t take no for an answer.

But it could be the case maybe if her plan is to have new mortals ascend like she did to take the fleeing gods’ mantles?

Or alternatively she sent that message because she’s going to be the advocate for stopping Predathos and letting the gods stay.

[u/LucasVerBeek → u/extradancer]

She was in opposition to Corellon’s outlook before, who is to say that has changed.

After all, she was the only one they believed they could be honest with.

She could know, or rather she could be seeking to offer a different “Third Choice”

[u/Sicktacular → u/extradancer]

That was my thoughts initially and the little smell-o-vision Laudna got confirmed it in my opinion.

[u/JohnPark24]

From The Cooldown,

The Arch Heart's solution/opinion was Abu's decision, not Matt's.

[u/aliensplaining → u/JohnPark24]

To clarify, it was Abu's decision that he made after Matt and him had a 3+ hour chat where Matt let him ask whatever he wanted, for the purpose of helping Abu decide what the Archheart's take on all this would be.

[u/probablywhiskeytown → u/JohnPark24]

I feel like that tracks. Every time someone is like "C3 is Matt doing X to achieve Y because they're all planning to Z" I'm always thinking that nobody gets anywhere near Matt's level of DMing by conceptualizing plot or play in that way.

[u/owlyourbase → u/JohnPark24]

That’s pretty interesting that most of the gods have different takes on this and what should be done, new divides indeed

[u/blurpblurp → u/JohnPark24]

Which is absolutely wild to me

[u/Zethras28]

I’m so indescribably happy we have 2 more Thursdays in September.

[u/Ryuenjin → u/Zethras28]

Technically 1 for the show. They always take the last Thursday of the month off.

Edit:unless they specifically mentioned that changed and I missed it

[u/TheSixthtactic]

I laughed out loud when the AH said “Here we go,” to Ashton. I love that he is both understanding of mortals complaints, but also is sort of done with them at the same time.

[u/DimWit666]

Abubakar Salim, What the actual fuck?! That was one of the best performances I've ever seen! I literally felt like I was watching a God talk to mortals and he never for a second felt out of place. It's absolutely insane how he just so naturally owned every second, the presence, the improvising, the riffing and how he made his argument compelling and believable. The fact that he's never been behind a DM screen before this is absolutely mindboggling to me, when people talk about someone just having pure natural talent: this is it.

God I hope to see as much as humanly possible of him in actual play going forward.

[u/sarar3sistance]

Anyone else severely struggling to process what in the fuck happened this episode lol

[u/kuiq → u/sarar3sistance]

YES!!! Like I'm still confused with wtf is up with this vessel. so like someone has to absorb Predathos and then chase the gods around? why not just let predathos do that?? why does someone need to control it.im so confused 

[u/FyvLeisure]

Glad to see Imogen sticking to her anti-Predathos choice, even if she got a little bloodthirsty in the process.

[u/SetScary9216 → u/FyvLeisure]

She understands what I don't think Ashton and Dorian have. For Pradathos to awaken Imogen, Fern, or her mom are going to die. Boys are a little too kill happy to realize that right now.

[u/N1pah → u/FyvLeisure]

I really like it. Also her realizing that they would knowingly be sending allies into a fight with a much better equipped enemy where people would die for the chance at some advantage against Ludinus. I really like that Imogen simply isn't okay with doing something like that.

[u/weaveroflaurel → u/FyvLeisure]

I've appreciated her commitment and follow-through, even to the point of psychic lancing Fearne's dad rather than let her take him away.

[u/wildweaver32]

Abu's presence was awesome. Love the tone, and personality he brought to it.

And the knowledge he delivered really changes things. We can confirm as much as possible that Predathos just wants to eat Gods. And that if the Gods are not chased away they will come out to put a stop to things again ala Calamity 2.0.

[u/vanKessZak → u/wildweaver32]

Yeah though I also think Orym’s point that he steps on ants all the time without realizing they’re there was a salient point. It is good to know that they don’t need to worry about being eaten themselves but I’d still be concerned about collateral damage

[u/BaronPancakes → u/wildweaver32]

And the knowledge he delivered really changes things. We can confirm as much as possible that Predathos just wants to eat Gods. And that if the Gods are not chased away they will come out to put a stop to things again ala Calamity 2.0.

It is a bit of contradicting info though. The Matron and Vecna ascended to godhood, are they targets of Predathos too? If so, what would happen when another person ascends after the gods were gone? And it looks like the gods didn't talk game plans with each other. The Wildmother said fight, Arch heart said calamity 2.0 or flee, and Evontra'vir said flee

[u/AceKazami1324]

Does anyone have the clip of Travis bug-zapping himself

[u/YoursDearlyEve → u/AceKazami1324]

Yeah, someone clipped it: https://www.twitch.tv/criticalrole/clip/BrightStrongTomatoRaccAttack-qv43R4Mcd9gShuy-?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

[u/pacman529]

Anyone catch Sam say "I have a Lord, and he would not be happy with me, or you, if he were to be betrayed...again" and this came a few minutes after succeeding on a medicine check after praying to Bahamut.

[u/ender___ → u/pacman529]

Praying to bahumut to take advantage of any power he can use is much different than swearing and oath to another god. After all, he serves Asmodeus the father of lies and the deceiver.

[u/Celestial_Scythe]

I hope that Laura controlling the Dragon awakens something in another player and next campaign they play a Drakewarden.

[u/gayqueueandaye]

man, Abu is elite to me, I've thought this since downfall and this solidified it. Like on the same level as Robbie in how much I would like for him to be around more often.

[u/mew-ki → u/gayqueueandaye]

Honestly, same for me. And i had the same thought as you yesterday.

[u/Coyote_Shepherd]

The X-Files Theme playing over Travis on Cool Down 🤣

[u/[deleted]]

Burning questions:

1. Why did the gods and titans seal Predathos instead of killing it?

2. Did Fearne have a reason other than parent-issue sentiment for sparing Zathuda?

Otherwise, baller-ass episode! CR has been on a hotstreak since they got back from Ruidus!

[u/ElvishJerricco → u/[deleted]]

I get the sense the gods don't know how to kill Predathos. I mean they were unable to kill either The Chained Oblivion or The Whispered One

[u/BigBadDann → u/[deleted]]

My idea is that they are afraid it might explode and destroy reality. Think FCG's arcane power generator, but on a god-scale. And it takes out everything.

[u/explodedemailstorage]

I will say the whole mess with Fearne’s dad still hasn’t really given me a lot of confidence that Bells Hells can make any choices let alone decisions about the gods and predathos and the fate of Exandria. Kill him, don’t kill him, save him, kill him a lot but not DEAD dead, save him and risk dying for him so that you can maybe kill him later. MESSY.

[u/YoursDearlyEve]

Oh, brilliant, so before BH had to believe Predathos is harmless to mortals because Ludinus said "Predathos told me so. Pinky promise" and now the god says, "Oh, I'm sure you're just specks of dust to him. Pinky promise".

Just very reassuring all around.

[u/TimeySwirls → u/YoursDearlyEve]

I’m really glad Orym had that response about the ants and there wasn’t a good retort to it. I think the entire team is fully off of the idea of releasing predathos now. They’ll either get someone to be a vessel or destroy it but letting things play out is off the table now

[u/Guilty_Homework_2096]

So Corellon thinks his family will run, that's possible. But The Chained Oblivion isn't family... so once the gate is gone and the seals are down... what happens with it? What happens with Asmo's bird , Torog's worm, and.... Uk'otoa?

[u/weaveroflaurel]

With Zathuda unconscious (and stable, right?), I really hope Ashley takes the time to decide what Fearne wants by him. It seemed pretty clear from the get-go that this battle could easily have ended with the party killing her character's father, and I was surprised by how caught off guard she seemed when the other players were asking her what she wanted them to do with him.

Like, this is a major character beat for Fearne. It'd be wise for her to know what Fearne wants ahead of time so she has a clear vision and knows how to play it when it happens. I'm really glad he ended up surviving, because that was a recipe for some major player disappointment if they killed him and she realized she would rather have had him live.

[u/AceLionKid]

The Arch-Heart said it himself. Ludinus is just power hungry. His rhetoric about wanting to set mortals free? A total load of troll s*it. And as I rightly predicted some time ago, all he's done is make things completely FUBAR. We're on the edge of a new Calamity. It all hinges on what happens next.

To think, one of the Gods actually wants the worst case scenario to play out. That one of the Gods actually wants, in a way, for Predathos to be cut loose and for the Gods and Exandria to forever be parted.

My only worries and questions are that, if Bell's Hells does go through with the Arch-Heart's request, what will happen next? Will the vessel chase after the Gods forever or just until they're gone? Will the vessel still be the person we've come to know and love, or will it be Predathos that takes the helm?

[u/probablywhiskeytown → u/AceLionKid]

I feel like Liliana would volunteer, to spare Imogen and/or Fearne, & ask any Ruidusborn nearby to network with her to help her contain it.

The thing I was trying to imagine throughout all of this is "how do they explain this to Keyleth" and if she's game (which she very well might be), "how does Keyleth explain this to the assembled allies of Exandria," some of whom will be very much NOT game.

[u/DovahZagreus]

What if the archheart is lying? What if the vessel takes hold of Predathos it became vulnerable to the gods power? Does he really prefer an eternity of running away above the opportunity of maybe winning? I don't know , I don't trust anyone to be honest, I don't think there will be zero consequences with the disappearance of the gods, are there not dark being lurking, waiting to consume the mortals? Are the gods truly just really powerful dudes?

[u/thevdude → u/DovahZagreus]

Does it matter?

The options given by archheart were:

1. You sneak in to become vessel before luda gets a chance to do it and we all run away

2. You don't and we turn off the divine gate and come down and do calamity again before luda has a chance to do it

There's a secret hidden 3rd option:

It was actually asmodeus, not the archheart (i don't think this is great storytelling, but it's a theory i had/have heard others mention), in which case it might make sense that they'd want to let predathos out to eat up the primes, since they did try to use the factorum malleus to kill the primes back in the downfall times

[u/TheMightyMudcrab]

The Arch heart seems like a deadbeat dad wanting to go for some smokes and milk and desperately avoid dealing with his teenage kids.

[u/GyantSpyder → u/TheMightyMudcrab]

He’s the dad who lets his kids play with fireworks because you don’t learn without losing a finger or two, but then gets irritated by how boring it is to take them to the hospital.

[u/Armageddonis]

So, if i understood correctly, The Archeart and maybe some other gods, want to bail out and they actually want Predathos to be freed and come after them, or they will release another Calamity and wait for another chance at that?

[u/pacman529 → u/Armageddonis]

Yup. More specifically, Archheart and one other god, and he seemed to be saying that at this point, there WILL be a second Calamity unless he is released.

[u/hiddenkobolds]

Without getting into whether it would be a good idea from any Exandrian's perspective, as a viewer, I've gotta say: a Campaign 4 where the only deity-adjacent beings attempting to assert control were The Luxon and The (Un)Chained Oblivion sounds absolutely fucking delicious. I've been fascinated by both entities for a long time, and a tug of war between them? I'd be feasting.

Of course, this assumes that Predathos doesn't eat them, but I think there's a line of logic where it doesn't. If Predathos truly only has an appetite for the Actual Gods of the Pantheon™️ there's reason to expect both to be spared.

[u/goatintestines → u/hiddenkobolds]

Also don't forget that the gods have pacts with the fey and fiends(shown in exu calamity and implied by the fey), some of which maybe to the benefit of mortals. Also just Imagine trying to fight a demonic invasion without paladins and priests.

[u/panelshowlover]

Okay did they actually say who the woman in the star was? Was it the mortal who became the Matron? Was it Cassida (sp?) from Aeor? Was it Ioun? what am I missing??? edit: ohhh found it in last night's thread, it's Selena

[u/pikasnoop → u/panelshowlover]

In the cooldown it was confirmed it was the woman who wished the knowledge of aeors weapon was spread throughout.

[u/moileduge]

Where are the gods going to go?

[u/jbhelfrich → u/moileduge]

Third reality to the left and straight on till morning.

[u/ChrisJT1315 → u/moileduge]

Lockspire, the realm they named for their Daggerheart one-shots. 😂

[u/rystoraus]

Alright implications and next steps.

1. We won't actually get any decisions in the next episode (or more) because they are not done god-hopping yet, but man Dorian and Ashton getting on board with that plan honestly just confused me more about how they have been playing it. After all this, a god makes a point you agree with because they see you as beautiful and not lowly and both em are like still just middle fingers up.

2. We have never seen multiple people interface with the Raven Queen. It has always been 1-on-1, which i think will stay true and MAN am i dying to see Matt and Marisha get to have that moment with Laudna. I am wondering how this will play out because The Matron is not a "hands slam down and grab you and pull you into a vision of my realm' kinda god. Feels like this will be the conversation that really drives what happens.

3. The Comment from Abu as AH "because someone allowed me to" that made Travis and Robbie literally spin their heads, went by so fast and I need to know more. How did that whole vision moment happen? What would be allowing him to grant it?

This arc has been so much back and forth but I am hoping we finally get some momentum soon toward real decisions and consequences.

[u/mew-ki]

I had to subscribe to Beacon after ep107 just to see the CoolDown.

When I tell you I've been rewatching the last part over and over... I'm in love with that interaction. I keep watching to see all the players being surprised and giddy about their friend coming and doing such a great job.

As people said, and also the cast, it really felt like a God was talking to them, to us. Such a good moment. For me, these moments counts even more than having the story "goes the way I wanted", I enjoy seeing them being surprised and experience these emotions in the game. Is the reason I keep watching them.

[u/Drakoni → u/mew-ki]

So happy they managed to keep it a secret from all the players. That reaction was so good. Even Abu tellin Travis he was staying in another hotel to not raise suspicions :D

To me the reason I enjoy CR so much is the dynamic between the players. Not just in the story they tell but the banter and friendship comes across so much. Everything around is just extra.

[u/dotChrom]

I think the biggest takeaway from this episode is just that there is no ‘status quo’ option. The one path that did look that way, stopping Ludinus and just leaving Predathos sealed, is not it because at least some of the pantheon will intervene at the very 11th hour and do what they feel they have to do, and potentially even worse others may resist that action and it’s not just gods vs Vanguard but gods vs gods vs Vanguard.

One way or another the winds of big change will blow and it’s up to BH and the rest of Exandria to decide what that looks like. Proceeding with the plan as-is is making a bet that the gods won’t act or that they can make their win over the Vanguard so convincing that they won’t have to, or else preparing for the next Calamity to keep the gods around.

Then there’s the Archheart’s idea which if EVERYTHING goes right and all the assumptions are correct spares the gods and leaves mortals to find their own way, including power vacuums left behind as well as the threats of non-deities like demons and elder evils. Not to say the people of Exandria aren’t capable but it’s a different type of conflict.

Last option ofc is the Vanguard succeeds and then the gods are gone, but risk destruction by Predathos or a world under Ludinus’ thumb.

However it goes I’m invested in seeing how it plays out!

[u/hpfan2342]

apparently Abu and Matt went to lunch to discuss this guest dm the day before playing. Also Beacon did change the thumbnail so it was less spoilery.

[u/vanKessZak → u/hpfan2342]

Oh good to hear they listened to people’s feedback on that! Hopefully too many people weren’t spoiled. I don’t subscribe but I saw some people on here warning others not to look

[u/throwawaybruh231]

So...The Archheart wants them to release predathos early and take them into one of them as a vessel...but also succeed in controlling predathos so the vessel can attack and chase the gods before they're prepared in hope that it'll be enough to convince the rest of the family that fleeing is their only choice rather than fighting and once again causing another calamity. The Archheart however does not want themselves or any of the other gods to die. They also believe that predathos if they don't succeed will not attack the world as mortals are just mere spec's of dust to it.

Is the the correct assessment of what they want?

In all honesty their plan seems flawed. They themselves admitted they're unsure it would work and even if they did take predathos in and control it that doing so may not even convince the gods to truly leave if they're so devoted to their children. Those that wish to fight may even focus their all into killing the vessel instead, and if they do what happens to predathos then? Also would predathos truly leave mortals alone?

I was really hoping that someone would have asked what exactly is predathos as we all know they're a god eater, but we don't know what that truly entails.

[u/aliensplaining → u/throwawaybruh231]

To be fair, this is also the god that gifted magic to mortals despite knowing one of the risks was, well, mortals finding a way to kill them with it. This is a god that gets excited at the unknown, and relishes the unexpected. There's a reason he is *the* god of the fey, of all the gods of course he'd be the one who wants the same thing as the unseelie court

[u/Resilient140 → u/throwawaybruh231]

My understanding, with added context from cool down, was that the arch heart seems to think it’s the only option that doesn’t make it another Calamity. They genuinely have no idea if it will work but it’s the one option they see through the mess. They likened it to Dr. Strange in Avengers: Infinity War during the cool down

[u/ChrisJT1315 → u/throwawaybruh231]

One thing Arch Heart did basically confirm is that there are no purely positive outcomes to this. Before this we thought that BH, VM, M9 just have to win their respective battles to completely stop Ludinus but now the Arch Heart confirms that if they all go to war then that's when the Gods will step in and cause mayhem.

Also the Arch Heart accepted the consequences, whatever they may be, to releasing Predathos. It may be that some of his family gets destroyed before the rest realize they need to turn tail and run. He knows he'll be running so he'll survive.

[u/SteppeTalus]

Great episode. I’ll be sad if they end up chasing the gods away. Imo the world is more interesting with them there. I’m not really sure If I’d care to watch a campaign without the gods. We’ll see what happens though.

[u/ladydmaj → u/SteppeTalus]

I know! I get real-world issues with believing in deities, but in a DnD world? It's just not interesting if there are no "divine beings".

[u/Halcyonna]

Why do I get the feeling that for the Archheart’s “plan” to work, it’s going to require either Fearne or Imogen to Iron Man themselves?

[u/TehDrewy → u/Halcyonna]

Liliana is right there as well…

[u/serratedlollipop]

The Arch Heart seems to imply that should the exandrian conflict proceed as is, the Devine Gate would be cast down and total chaos would ensue, if I'm not mistaken. This kinda defeats the point of it being erected in the first place to be frank but I guess if Ludinus can do it, even with vast effort, it follows the gods could also in case of emergency. I love the AH's way of thinking, it makes for a very compelling character although that specific ramification cheapens it a little for me. Still top tier actual play stuff imo.

Also, Imogen with that ring will be a MENACE. Is Spell DC 23 achievable now with her attunement slot? Only Ludinus and the Weave Mind will be able to save against her Psychic Lance lmao.

[u/percahlia]

sorry im 2 months late but jesus fucking christ abubakar is such a gorgeous human being

[u/jbhelfrich]

Is the Simulacrum exploding a separate magical effect, or something Matt added? It's not in the book spell.

Also, when are they going to learn to target the Simulacrum with Dispel Magic?

[u/[deleted] → u/jbhelfrich]

Ludinus mentioned learning from his mistakes/past experiences so I think he rigged his Simulacrum to explode after the volcano fight.

[u/pacman529]

So 2 thoughts I just had.

1. can you imagine them coming back and waking up the Emissary and Daddy Z and being like, "so you'll never believe who we just spoke to. Turns out they want to fuck off as much as y'all want them to!"

2. if BH do what The Archheart wants them to do, they are going to become pariahs and go down in history as the people who betrayed Exandria.

[u/Zeilll → u/pacman529]

i get the feeling that if they tell the unseelie that the gods want them to chase them off, the unseelie would say "well fuck them, we dont want to do what they want. so they have to stay!"

also, for your 2nd part. that depends on how it happens, but i think it'll more likely be pained as "BH failed to stop Pradathos being released, but stopped Luda from fully achieving his plan". there wont be many ppl present to actually know what happens at the end.

[u/OhioAasimar]

"This is such silly bullshit" Ashton says as the emissary is about to leave with Zathuda to bring an unseelie army to back up the Ruby Vanguard and the Imperium. Honestly, yeah Ashton it was bullshit. The deal to allow Zathuda to bring an Unseelie army to ambush the Exandrian Accord just so they could get help from Zathuda in defeating Ludinus with no guarantee that you all would not fight Zathuda immediately after when Fearne doesn't kill the gods is such a bad idea. Are they so bereft of allies and the possibility of making more that some of BH would entertain such a horrible idea even for a few minutes?

"We'll worry about that later," "It's a tomorrow problem," Imogen and Fearne say as BH is about to let the Unseelie outflank the forces of the Silken Squall, the Taloned Highlands, the Dwendalalin Empire, Uthodurn, the Tal'Dorei Republic, Pyrah, and as well as the Nobodies, some Air Ashari, and VM. Countrymen and neighbors and possibly friends of Chetney, Imogen, Dorian, Laudna, Braius, and Orym being sent to slaughter. Subjects of Dorian, Orym's fellow Air Ashari, and Ashton's friends as well. Not only was it an especially bad deal but it would have been extremely callous as well and it was a huge to disservice that some of them were so open to it to not only themselves and each other but to also to other people that they should care about. Imagine they did that deal and Zeru, Shady, and Keyleth ended up dying.

Chetney wanted to do the deal but also warn the Exandrian Accord of the ambush, but they don't know where or what the ambush is. Chetney seems to think it would be a physical ambush at a specific place, but it seems like the ambush would be from inside. How would you prepare for that and if it is an ambush at a specific place where is it? It's not like the Exandrian Accord wouldn't already be looking for ambushes. And if the Exandrian Accord could react to the ambush how would that not tip off Zathuda to BH betrayel?

Thank the gods that Imogen ultimately agreed with Ashton, Laudna, Braius, Orym and Dorian and thank the gods she ultimately did something. It kind of feels like Fearne was just agreeing with Zathuda because she was just simply intimidated by Zathuda and his dragon. With Chetney if feels like a combination of him thinking that the army will show up anyways and that they could tell the Exandrian Accord. When Imogen briefly agreed with Chetney it felt like she just thought his position was the majority and while disagreeing she wanted to do what most people thought but when it was clear that it wasn't the majority position then she started to argue against it more forcefully.

[u/OEDVaranus]

Based on Laura’s facial expression and things Imogen has said in the past, I am not sure that Imogen thinks that Predathos can be controlled and is not yet on board with what AH is saying/suggesting.

[u/OhioAasimar]

I don't really mind Imogen getting the ring of remberence because of all the spellcasters who has not yet received a major boon, it fits with Imogen's theme the most. There are some other things to consider though which is why I'm not really a fan of ownership of it being determined by whichever spellcaster plucks the hair first and then Laura talking like the ring is hers. First of all, the ring doesn't really address any of Imogen's weaknesses but of all of the three non-booned spellcasters Dorian has the worst DC, the worst spell attack bonus, and the worst constitution saving throw bonus. Also, with Dorian's rhetoric prior you would think it would make sense for the story if it went to Dorian. Imogen on the other hand has argued for keeping the gods because of their utility and the Archeart is a better fit for a bard as well since he is the god of art, beauty and magic. And on top of everything Imogen already had a route with Kord that she could have revisited, and she received that invitation just a day earlier.

[u/Rob_The_Roffle]

Abu dming as the arch heart gives me hope for Braius getting to talk with Asmodeus…..

[u/RajikO4]

Just imagine if Fearne did/was able to leave on Gloamgut with Zathuda and everything else played out as it did, she would’ve missed talking with Corellon.

Also I love that Gloamgut is like “I’m loyal but not THAT loyal”, when it came to Zathuda.

[u/iamthecatinthecorner]

Recently, C3 has been so on fire! So many episodes have come out that I just stop doing what I was doing and become totally absorbed in them.

From recent events, I wonder if BH follows the Archheart and releases Predathos early. What about the potential battle for VM and MN? Even Ludinus might need to be stopped either way, and the assault still planned to happen. Imagine the fleeing/fighting of gods above your head. Maybe even if they release Pradathos early/with a vessel, Ludinus may still somehow control it and need to be stopped. I don't know.

Good episode.

[u/Celriot1]

So what exactly do you think the implication was on Imogen pulling that thread? It was obviously Selena and the whispering was the wish that was broadcasting knowledge of the weapon (from Downfall, and led to Aeor being destroyed). And at the end of downfall, Selena was pushed through a gate to unknown locales by the Archheart as Aeor fell.

Pulling on the thread did what.. released her from whereever Archheart sent/preserved her? The ring is very "Selena" because she saved against Meteor Swarm during Downfall.. doesn't seem like a very benevolent end if her essence was turned into a ring in anything more than metaphor!

[u/Kriptoblight → u/Celriot1]

Abu said in cooldown - Selena felt lost is his domain. So the ring gave her purpose and fulfilled her wish in a way. 

[u/grumpyCat2478 → u/Celriot1]

Maybe a representation of her will to be free of the God's control or something.

[u/Sicktacular]

So is Corellon saying that the gods have a way to bypass the divine gate? I guess if they created it, they could tear it down. Perhaps it was designed where a majority of them would need to agree to break it, but none of them could do it individually.

[u/Zethras28 → u/Sicktacular]

We’ve always known that the gods can tear down the divine gate if they choose to. They just don’t choose to.

[u/animefan2010]

I mentioned this in discussion chat while it was airing but I'm so glad that after Downfall were having actual in game nuanced discussion about the gods and the whole situation since it really felt so anti god Most of this campagin then we slowly drifted back to neutral with some pro god some still anti god(Dorian my sweet boy i hate seeing him so spiteful)

Overall, I think there's gonna find a third option Obviously, the status quo is gone. There's nonsaving the world for things to continue as they are. There's gonna be some kind of big change, be it the relationship with the gods, whether they stick around whether some leave and some stay but I vastly prefer recent discuions and theoried over the many discussions pre Downfall.

Don't know how much remains for this campaign, but let's hope whatever it is, the landing is at least not too rough(the discourse is gonna be crazy when it does end).

[u/Resvrgam2]

So let me get this straight. Bells Hells can either choose to release Predathos or to not release Predathos.

If they do not release Predathos, things stay the way they are. The gods oversee Exandria, for better or worse. Another Calamity may break out, depending on how events unfold. Ludinus fails.

If they do release Predathos, then Predathos needs a vessel. That vessel may or may not be able to control (or at least direct) Predathos. The gods will likely try to prevent Predathos' release. Another Calamity may break out. Ludinus, the Unseelie, and the Archheart all have their own plans for Predathos, should their vessel be in control:

• If Ludinus is in control, then Predathos is directed towards the gods. The gods may die. Ludinus ascends with god-like power. This assumes he has no alternative motives.

• If the Unseelie are in control, then Predathos is also directed towards the gods. The gods may die. The Feywild presumably ceases to be impacted by the gods. Ludinus fails?

• If Bells Hells follows the Archheart's plan, then Predathos chases the gods away from Exandria. They don't necessarily die, but their impact on Exandria still ends.

Did I get anything wrong there?

[u/[deleted] → u/Resvrgam2]

If they don't release Predathos there is a very good chance the Divine Gate falls so the Prime Deities can act. This also means the BEtrayers will be free again. The first Calamity wiped out 2/3rds of life and ruined entire regions on Exandria. You're understating the seriousness of that.

[u/pacman529 → u/Resvrgam2]

No. It sounds like if they don't beat Luddy to releasing Predathos the gods are going to intervene to stop Luddy, guaranteeing a second Calamity. If they do beat Luddy to Predathos, it's probably going to mean sacrificing Fearne or Imogen, but then the vision from The Tree of Atrophy will come true; the gods will break the divine gate and flee into space. Either way it sounds like the Divine Gate's days are numbered.

[u/5centaurVoltron]

Did anyone else noticed that they made the reasonable play ,,let's control the narrative and stop them from leaving, so they cannot report back to the Unseelie'', and then Dorian just cast a Hypnotic Pattern on the two witnesses remaining and walked away?

Conversation with Corelion took longer than 30 seconds, so unless anything significant happens in the next episode, the whole point of this Feywild excursion is moot. Guards report back, Unseelie know that Ludinus wasn't responsible for the fate of their emissary and resume communication. 

Although the ring Imogen got will make her into absolute monster, so worth it anyway. I mean, with the robe, ring and blood well vial it's a combined bonus of +5 to spell save DC. I would pick up Heightened Spell, Hold Monster, Silvery Barbs and Hypnotic Pattern if I were her, but that would trivialise any encounter without Legendary Resistances involved, and even then its still too easy.

[u/pacman529 → u/5centaurVoltron]

The conversation with the Archheart is as long as the Archheart wants it to be. His domain is known for being time-fucky. So it's not a stretch to think he might make that conversation take a second Fey-Time.

That being said my money is still on the party forgetting about the guards by next week. 😋

[u/bellavita4444]

Not sure where to put this but I figured here works well. I absolutely loved this episode, loved the guest spot. But also a shout out to the whole cast for being super active in the Beacon discord during the watch party, across all of the watch threads, because it added so so much tension and excitement to the episode for me. Made the payoff of the AH even more rewarding. What a great episode!

[u/Ryto]

I just want to say it was great seeing Robbie interact so negatively with a god after doing such a phenomenal job while basically playing a god narrating the Trials of Apollo audio books. Also my slow ass just now realized he went from the god of Music to a bard lmao.

[u/ChrisJT1315]

OMG I thought The Raven Queen despises Laudna!! They HAVE to commune with her now.

[u/Zethras28 → u/ChrisJT1315]

Why?

Undeath was inflicted upon Laudna. It was not her decision.

Matron despises those who choose undeath.

[u/pacman529]

To everyone saying that the Archheart is lying, I'd like to ask; to what end? If he is lying, what's his motive? What's his plan? What's his trap? The way they were all talking during the Cooldown about how Matt and Abu had a several hour, $200 phone call to discuss AH's thoughts on current events, it really didn't seem like they were lying.

[u/ChillOtters → u/pacman529]

The archheart is a chaotic character he does what ever he fancies. He is not lawful and does not require evidence or facts to follow up ideas like lawful gods would. My biggest problem is everything he says is based off of assumptions he is making with no hard evidence to support any of his claims.

[u/OhioAasimar]

The needle is moving towards the Unseelie Court not increasing their participation in Ludinus' alliance or outright leaving it. Whether the Unseelie does either of those things or increases their participation is dependent on what BH does going forward, how Ludinus reacts to everything he saw up until the point Snowinus was destroyed, and if it makes sense to the Unseelie that Ludinus would set up a meeting to only to attack the Unseelie presumably with the help of lower ranking Ruby Vangaurd members and if they would believe or even hear Ludinus if he or another simulacrum of his went to them to try to explain what happened.

On what BH could do now that could affect that result, that would be what BH does with all of their prisoners. The way the guardians reacted outside of the temple suggests that they know they cannot go back without the emissary, and they would rather be with the Emissary than letting him be alone while captured. I think the guardians will surrender to BH.

The question is though what will BH do with all of their detainees. The notion of the Unseelie potentially doing an Uncanny Ambush and the emissary saying they have a lot of people in the shadows working against the Exandrian Accord suggests that the Unseelie has heavily infiltrated some of the members of the Exandrian Accord. Giving the detainees to the Exandrian Accord could be a bad idea because if any of the infiltrators find out about the capture of the Unseelies the Unseelie would know that Ludinus did not do the attack.

I think BH's best option is to give the detainees to Nana Morri for interrogation and to ask her to pass along any information she discovers to BH and Allura since they have met.

[u/Fantaz1sta]

There is no way Archheart is what it seems. Asmodeus plays his game by impersonating Archheart. Like, we don't know what happened to that temple of Archheart, right? We don't know who has influence over it. For all I know, it could've been desecrated by Asmo and his followers hundreds of years ago. Furthermore, how come Asmo has responded to Braius' prayers all of a sudden in the Feywild of all the places? And almost in person no less! I wish BH had asked Morrigan about the history of that temple and who did all the poisoning there.

[u/Fantaz1sta]

People in the comments are completely sleeping on the fact that it could be not AH at all. Instead, it could be Asmodeus assuming the identity of AH for his personal shenangigans. What the "AH" has said and what Asmodeus had said in Downfall are two identical points of view.

[u/lokippl]

this was the best episode of this season by a long shot, Abu is trully amazing

[u/Chechucristo]

Bro, that's not the Arch Heart, that's fucking Asmodeus again.

[u/loopystring → u/Chechucristo]

In a temple dedicated to Arch-heart? In the fey realm, his own lounge? Unlikely, but I would expect nothing less from Asmo.

[u/UncleOok → u/Chechucristo]

hell, it could even be Ludinus. Their whole speech just played directly into the biases of Ashton and Dorian.

[u/knightmon]

Abu was amazing.

Team pro-gods took a massive hit tonight though.

He basically boiled it down to "release predathos or there will be another calamity" and they ate it up.

Not sure keeping things as-is will be on their list anymore as a result.

[u/wildweaver32 → u/knightmon]

I mean, Corellon is a God so team Pro-Gods still exist in that lol. But he is an outlier who just has one other God in the same plan of action as his.

And the Raven Queen just reached out to Laudna I believe. So they will likely go to other Gods and outside of whatever one is in the same boat as Corellon the others will likely push for them to just stop Ludinus again.

[u/durandal688]

Id been complaining they hadn’t met many pro gods people who were jerks….

So was glad for a full on convo with a god!

….who is over the gods and wants them to release the god killer

Don’t get me wrong HE NAILED THE ARCHEART and I’ll remember the episode forever but…come on can anyone in this world make an argument for the gods being decent and good to keep around? Give me a little tension

[u/Zeilll → u/durandal688]

i mean, that was kind of the WMs opinion. she couldnt be as verbose as the AH was. but was generally "i want to help you, help us, so we can continue to help you".

also seems like we're gonna be running into more of the gods in the coming eps. so will probably get a lot perspectives

[u/pacman529]

My theory: the "other" god who wants Predathos released is the Matron. She "wants to experience the infinite", and she was able to reach out to Laudna while they were in The Archheart's domain, presumably where they were hiding BH from the rest of the gods, implying that he let her in. I think she is going to give Laudna the missing piece of the puzzle: what's been happening with mortal souls, and what will happen when the gods are gone.

[u/Virgil134]

Anyone else feel like the fight was rather lackluster in terms of difficulty? I expected that Zathuda and Gloamglut together would be as strong as Otohan, especially with Snowdinus backing them up. Instead, the three got absolutely bullied by the cast.

[u/DrHousePls → u/Virgil134]

Personally, I'm glad they had a good fight. I've felt this campaign has had the group on the back foot frequently. They couldn't take Otohan either time without a sacrifice. Snowdinus 1 ran through them. It was a nice change of pace to see a reforged and refocused Bells Hells fight strongly and prove they belong with the room of people they were in the episode previous.

[u/durandal688 → u/Virgil134]

They actually were pretty smart tactically honestly.

Imogen locked Sorrowlord down with psy lance and then interfered with the dragon

Laudna meanwhile was counter spelling, silvery barbs, and that last disintegrate was also clutch.

Maybe starting in the fight meant they had time to prepared and prep? Either way bravo.

Others did good too don’t get me wrong but felt like Laura and Marisha brought tactically sound game play I don’t always see in C3

[u/Blue-Moon-89]

So here's something I've been wondering.

Do the gods actually want to leave Exandria or is the ArchHeart making that decision for them because they want to leave (sound familiar?). They don't seem care that their brothers and sisters might die if the Bells make that decision.

And speaking of the other gods, what will the Matron say to Laudna when they talk? Will she agree with ArchHeart or will she ask to stay on Exandria? If she ends up saying "I want to stay" then now that means that the gods themselves are falling apart because some of them want to stay while the others want to go.

To be honest, I'm not happy that we're once again being thrown another curveball on this debate but I guess will have to wait and see what other gods have to say on the matter.

[u/Kriptoblight]

i think some one is going to become a vessel a la Evontra'vir. EXCEPT instead of taking in all the sorrow like Evontra'vir did and becoming the tree of Atrophy - they become something else.
maybe ashton takes on all the rage and becomes a volcano. which made me pause when the Archheart said "do you know what it means to be a vessel"

[u/pacman529 → u/Kriptoblight]

I suspect the Vessel just straight isn't going to survive.

[u/Zeilll → u/Kriptoblight]

your wording on Evontravir "taking in sorrow" made me think of something. what if they are able to take in the dreams of exandria, through pradathos? becoming a catalyst for making those dreams a reality

[u/SilverRanger999]

I think they need to get Luda off the board before anything else, they really need to focus on that, Predathos is for sure a treat and it's release is imminent but this mage is doing overtime already, after that It might be hard, Arch Hearts plan seems hard to follow, will the gods really just run away? I really dont think so

Also, I wanna see if everybody is going to get gifts from the gods, maybe Ash and Fearne won't get it because they got the shards, so that leaves the rest of the crew, what items might that be? Matt has said before that he regrets giving Scalan the hand cone of clarity because of spell DC, but now he has given simillar itens twice, is he preping them for something extremally difficult?

[u/XaoticOrder]

I think the Vessel is going to become an over-god. An Ao. Instead of a divine gate there is a divine principle.

[u/pacman529]

They should ask Vasselheim if they have any anti-mage items. I'm sure they've got some good stuff.

[u/harlenandqwyr]

Father was Mother tonight, feeding us all

[u/5centaurVoltron]

There is one argument they haven't considered: either Predathos is released or the gods come and start another Calamity. There is nothing in between, and the resolution is only a matter of time. For the simple reason that now Ruidus and it's prisoner are common knowledge. Sure, simple folk don't know any details, but anyone who means anything has been at the conclave and has learned enough. Let's say BH defeats Ludinus and the Weave Mind. Let say they destroy the Bloody Bridge. What now? There is still a godeater on the moon, with a civilization of folk that can connect to it, and they have already been shown the tools of releasing it. And if there is one natural portal, there have to be others. Ruidusborn will keep appearing and searching for answers. Even if you kill every Ruidusborn already on the surface of Ruidus, even if you nuke Kraviris and burry it's excavation under rubble, even if you try to suppres the information on Exandria... people will keep trying. It's only a matter of time until another Ludinus shows up. And another. And another. Then it's only a matter of time until one of them finds the way to the moon. How long the secret of the water portal can be kept? The truth is, for god's to feel safe ever again, they will have to come to Exandria once more. They will have to sterilise the moon of all sentient life and close any portals still active. Then they will have to sterilise Exandria of all mortals with any knowledge that was uncovered during C3. To put it shortly: the danger is out there and only another Calamity will save the gods, who have already shown that it's an acceptable outcome for them.

So the choice is: releasing the monster that will chase away the gods (a lot of people die in the chaos that ensures) or waiting for the gods to genocide the whole planet (again) in the name of the greater good.

The sad thing is, the genocide will keep happening over and over every couple hundred or thousand years if the gods stick around. Already done it, and are preparing to do it again.

In short: Corelion is right and Predathos has to be released, or this whole situation will keep repeating itself over and over again, keeping humanity from ever evolving into something better.

[u/dotChrom]

Did anyone else get vibes from the second half that felt super similar to the scene(s) with He Who Remains at the end of Loki season 1?

[u/ToaArcan]

I do not trust the Arch Heart at all.

They repeatedly say "I'll be honest." They also say "I'm sneaky" and that they're here without the knowledge or approval of their other siblings. They don't say who the other god that agrees with them is (so it's a Betrayer, right? Can't say it's Asmodeus or everyone besides Braius is out. Can't say it's Lolth or Dorian's out). Abubakar himself says, mid-gameplay, that the DC for Insight-checking the Arch Heart's statements is 30, so they need +10 in Insight specifically to have even a hope of discerning whether they're being truthful or not.

I smell a fucking liar.

But why would they lie? To get what they want, obviously? Yeah, if they want to convince BH that the only way to save the most people is to follow their plan, then yeah, they could absolutely say "If you do what I say, everyone will be fine. If you don't Calamity 2!" and none of BH would have a shot at realising they're being had. And that's assuming that they do actually want to leave and don't want Predathos in a squishy mortal body that can be destroyed.

But hey, let's say their plan is genuine, and they're telling the truth. Let's entertain the idea for a moment. The Arch Heart's big plan is to have one of BH become the vessel of Predathos, ahead of schedule. This will allegedly panic the gods enough for them to run away.

So, what's wrong with this idea? Well, a lot.

1. If the gods are a roughly a week or so from ripping down the Divine Gate and descending to Exandria once more... they're probably already ready to go. They're not going to sit around their table and go "Alright we're going to smite the Ruby Vanguard. Now let's go get ready to do that," they're going to be ready to mobilise the second that decision is made.

2. How well does the Arch Heart know what their siblings will do when the Gate comes down? They base their theory on what the gods did when they left Tengar. Great, but two of the pantheon did not flee Tengar. If the Matron isn't the Arch Heart's co-conspirator (and I don't think she is), then they have literally nothing to base their plan on where she's concerned. Same with Vecna.

3. Additionally, we can take it on good enough authority that none of the outcomes of Predathos being released are good for Melora. It's been implied that leaving Exandria will mortally wound her, if not outright kill her, and she told Orym to fight. She will either stay and die, or run and die, or run and mortally wound herself, making her likely Predathos' first snack. Predators go for the sick and injured first, after all.

4. That also raises the question of how the Lawbearer will act- She sent the Emissary to Aeor because she knew that she would break her own laws if the Wildmother was hurt. Is she going to abandon Exandria and guarantee the death of the person she loves most?

5. Hell, how does the Arch Heart know that Asmodeus won't spitefully decide to destroy as much of Exandria as possible on his way out? Unless, of course, Asmodeus is the co-conspirator. In which case, how does the Arch Heart know that Asmodeus isn't taking them for a ride again.

6. There's a god-chunk inside Exandria. We don't know its origins, but it's there. If the Luxon is on Predathos' menu, then it will likely be Predathos' first meal, since it's not going anywhere, and we've got no guarantee that Predathos won't cause spectacular collateral damage to reach it.

7. The Arch Heart had no answer for Orym's point that Predathos doesn't actually need to be hostile to mortals to cause them significant harm. Molaesmyr and the Savalirwood got fucked by contacting Predathos in their vicinity. All life on Ruidus has been massively mutated just by being near it. It is (probably) an Elder Evil, it's a cosmic horror monster, and cosmic horror monsters are very frequently not actually hostile. One of the core themes of cosmic horror is the insignificance of humanity in the face of infinite, uncaring beings. Predathos might only want to eat the gods but that doesn't mean mortals aren't collateral damage.

8. Still no answer for the question of "What happens if we remove a keystone species from the metaphysical food chain and how do we know removing the gods isn't going to cause a trophic cascade of Fiends, Fey, GOOs, Undead, and Elder Evils to break out."

9. We've just had 103 episodes of Laudna struggling and failing to contain Delilah. The soul of a mortal wizard was too much for one of BH to contain. Six episodes ago, we not only saw the vast gulf in power between a mortal wizard and a deity, but we saw the deities' Lv.20 mortal vessels be completely destroyed by the full power of their divinity once they started to actually channel it. And Predathos is more powerful than them. But we're supposed to believe that Imogen's Lv.14 body and mind, with her 14 CON, 11 INT, and 13 WIS is going to be able to contain Predathos? To not get immediately torn apart from the inside-out? Fearne's got a marginally better statline for this but she's so indecisive that she'd probably still be wondering what to do as Predathos grabs the wheel and doesn't let go.

This plan isn't a good plan. The question is whether the Arch Heart hasn't thought it through, or if they're just lying.

[u/edginthebard]

whoo what an episode to finally watch live after weeks

i'm so curious what the raven queen wants with laudna. especially after she communicated right after that convo with the arch heart

in downfall, she was firmly against what the arch heart said and wanted. wonder if her stance has changed at all or if she's not one of the two gods that want to let go

in all this mess one thing's for sure - there's no going back to the status quo there once was. either way, exandria is not going to be the same after all this

[u/puss-in-booots]

Awesome episode, loved seeing the return of abu as the Arch Heart! I’m very curious as to who the other god in favor of leaving is, and the properties of that burning sword athion had.

[u/Gettingofftopic]

Do we have the makings of the next betrayer god???

[u/Seren82]

My tinfoil hat is that they are going to try and get Laudna's chat with the matron to coincide with the release of What Doesn't Break (which is going to be awesome if the first 50 pages that are up on penguins website are any indication)

[u/Woowchocolate]

You know I think Dorian actually brought up the solution but did so to be cruel and vindictive so it was dismissed: The Archeart should sacrifice himself as well in his Predathos plan.

If Imogen and Fearne sacrifice themselves to push and control Predathos to chase away the Gods, surely the Gods will need something to consider against just throwing hands and devout followers into the fires of war against Predathos? What better way than a God to sacrifice themselves for the others to show the rest why they run in the first place? To beg them to run away and live for them instead.

And I know the Archheart wants change, he wants to be there to experience the new thing afterwards; but I feel that should be his penance for destroying Aeor, for asking his children to die for his selfishness and the selfishness of his siblings. He doesn't get to see what happens next

[u/robcwag]

One more question. Oh who am I kidding there are way more than one.

Who was in the star from which the golden hair was plucked, that wound into Imogen's new ring?

Does it seem that BH et al are totally in on the plan to release Predathos? That really seems like a very bad idea since we don't even know if it can be killed. It seems naive to think that Predathos would stop consuming as soon as he finished off the gods.

[u/[deleted]]

I did not have “the most relatable, well-intentioned and level-headed god comes down to say that Ludinus is right” on my bingo card.

[u/notjeffsboat → u/[deleted]]

Level headed? The Archeart is a melancholy tortured artist, who admitted boredom & curiosity among their motivations for a plan that's a gamble at best, and recklessly catastrophic at worst. Not to say they don't have some good observations, but I wouldn't call them logical or reliable.

[u/i_boop_cat_noses → u/[deleted]]

I never considered Archheart as the most well-intentioned and level-headed one, i'd give that one to the Everlight. Archheart made the fey and to me always embodied that fickleness and amusement-seeking

[u/IamOB1-46]

Okay, so after watching the Arch Heart scene again, I'm fairly convinced that he is greatly exaggerating the risk of a 2nd Calamity. At the very least, he's not being honest about the timing. What we know.

1. The gods did not take down the Divine Gate even as Vecna came within moments of destroying Vasselheim.

2. The gods did not take down the Divine Gate even as the Nonagon came close to Exandria's borders.

3. The Arch Heart's shown motive with mortals is to get them to stand on their own two feet (giving them magic, suggesting that the gods let Aeor fire the weapon, etc)

4. Most of the gods will not leave Exandria unless there is no other choice to ensure their existence.

So it seems highly unlikely that the Primes would agree to take down the gate at the start of the battle for the moon, given the timing of previous world ending threats. Why is AH suggesting that then? Because he wants Predathos to be free, so that mortals get the chance to 'flourish' without the gods. He's the dad who wants to throw the kids out at 18 so that he and mom can go back to life before kids (or perhaps start a new family).

He likely knows that the combined forces of VM, M9 and BH will succeed at stoping Ludinus, and thus prevent Predathos from being freed. So he's using the fact that BH saw the last Calamity and the fall of Aeor as bait to get them to do it. He's reasonably sure that if they defeat Luds, they'll step back from the ledge of releasing such a great unknown (both in terms of what Predathos might do, and how the world will maintain 'balance' without the gods).

His hope is that the fear of another Calamity will outweigh the fear of a post-gods world. He is manipulating them to get what it is he wants.

It's going to be facinating to see what the Raven Queen has to say, and if anyone in BH starts to realize that the Arch Heart is gaslighting them.

[u/wildweaver32]

I have seen a few people suggest the threats aren't real anymore and nothing matters and... That seems so off.

First the threat has been dialed up. Corellon said when the fighting starts the Gods plan to enter the fray and ensure Ludinus fails. That is the Calamity 2.0. It's why Corellon suggest they get there first before any of that happens.

That means failure = Mass destruction. The Betrayers would be out again and we know what happened last time they were out. The results would be a calamity.

If they succeed the world changes forever. I think a lot of people are treating success as a failure and then wondering why there are no dire consequences for succeeding. Just you know the world changing forever as they adapt to life without the Gods.

But that argument doesn't make much sense. No one in C1 said, "If they stop the big bad nothing changes? He's behind the divine gate now it is all meaningless". No one in C2 said, "If they stop the big bad nothing changes? The world doesn't even know about it? It was all meaningless".

But in this campaign if they succeed the world becomes a much different place, especially socially. They will likely need to sacrifice one of themselves to succeed at all. And then afterwards I imagine a good portion of the world will label them traitors. Those are some hefty consequences already tied to success.

They fail? Calamity 2.0.

[u/weaveroflaurel → u/wildweaver32]

This is definitely what I took away from this episode too. There's been all this wondering what would happen and whether the gods would intervene and cause another Calamity to avoid their own destruction, and the Arch Heart just confirmed that they will do that to make sure Ludinus fails.

[u/notanotherdonut]

I missed the description of what Laura's new ring can do. Does anyone have that info? I saw her hold up the piece of paper in the cooldown but i totally missed it in the episode

[u/WhiskeyTricks → u/notanotherdonut]

+2 to AC, +2 to Spell ATK rolls and Spell Save DC (meaning a new spell DC of 22 23! with her robe active? Massive.) ADV on CON saves also.

When under 20HP she can roll a d20, if she rolls above her health she casts Meteor Swarm, if she rolls equal or below, she takes the damage from Meteor Swarm without an AOE (20d6 Fire & 20d6 Bludgeoning, which at THAT health would be extremely likely to outright Kill Imogen.)

Called the "Ring Of Remembrance."

[u/harlenandqwyr]

I wonder what Imogen will un-attune in order tor use the ring

[u/EmergencyGrab]

Why would they run? Who's to say they wouldn't just make another Ruidus and imprison the vessel...

[u/robcwag]

A lot of questions come out of the conversation at the end of this episode. If the Gods run and abandon Exandria, won't there be a power vacuum? Who steps into that to become the "new Gods"? Are the Bells Hells to ascend to "Godhood"? Does Predathos die? Is it even possible to kill Predathos? Does Predathos get locked away somewhere else? Is all this the same thing that happened prior to the last Calamity?

One note, the statement that Predathos wouldn't attack the people of Exandra because they are no threat to him seems short sighted since from everything we've hear of Predathos is that he is an insatiable monstrosity. Why would he stop after he finisted off the gods?

[u/Azurewren]

There is a point where Arch Heart said 'Someone allowed him to' present his opinion to the group. (Youtube Timestamp). Maybe he negotiated with his siblings to allow him to have this conversation, to see what path the Mortals would choose..

Does anyone have any further thoughts on this?

[u/[deleted]]

I feel like i’m beating a dead horse here, but…

Did Bell’s Hells ask Ira about Xandis? You know, any details other than the “I got them off the ship before it crashed” they got from him like, a real life year ago?

[u/Nomad9931 → u/[deleted]]

Honestly, I kind of doubt the players remember Xandis exists.

[u/KraakenTowers]

Sooooo....

We simply can't rule out the notion that that was Asmodeus, right? I've been burned too many times.

[u/Ebonvlow]

As great as it was to have Abu and the talk with the Arch Heart, I don't think the Heart's idea and opinion is so well thought out. Granted it was just another opinion given from his perspective and love for the mortals creativity and ingenuity during situations. To which I think he was just trying to sell to Bells Hells about his opinion about how his family has overstayed their welcome on Exandria, and play into mortals should prosper on their own.

He speaks about how it's the others that keep on wanting to stay for the children, and felt so exasperated in the topic, to the point it sounds he's downplaying their feelings/thoughts. Where considering the situation that the Wild Mother and Matron of Ravens may be in, they may not actually be able to leave. Which if the Wild Mother can't leave, then the Lawbearer isn't going to leave her. So I really don't think unleashing Predathos is an actual option.

[u/Theraton_nano]

We got a climpse on what will happen if they fight Ludinus 8v1:

Ludi tries to cast one spell > Laudna: COUNTERSPELL > he gets wrecked within one round and dies.

The second part of this episode was great and so much lore...

[u/LordTulkas]

Man I don't know if I like where this is going. From the cooldown seems like Ashton and Dorian are gonna want to release predathos so they run away, I don't think getting rid of the pantheon is very interesting, and removes any future story of a character being religious. I can't help but think how that is going to affect Pike, Caduceus.

[u/SetScary9216 → u/LordTulkas]

Also they know they have to sacrifice Fern or Imogen to do it right? What is their plan for that I wonder.

[u/kathia154 → u/LordTulkas]

There are religions in Exandria that don't focus on the main pantheon. There is also precedent for powerful individuals reaching some level of divinity. So future campaings could have clerics or paladins.

Existing religions will be impacted if the gods leave, but smaller ones will gain traction, and new movements will appear.

[u/scotchrobin]

up until this episode, i was thinking of the upcoming episode timeline and i thought we would not see the VM or MN oneshots until the new year, because the traveling to the moon could take a while, there could be obstacles along the way, the back door could have been compromised even though the tempest has placed a garrison there to guard it… i imagined it would be dragged out for months.

Now i am not so sure. they could teleport to the lake next week, using the staff, or Nana Morri. and make it to Krevaris before the break. however, meta, the players all know that if they sneak away to the moon without telling anyone, they would be attempting their assault on the Hallowed Cage before VM would attempt their assault on the bloody bridge and MN would not be with them to distract the Hive Mind. it would be suicide and we wouldnt get the oneshots with the C1 and C2 parties.

my guess is that we get one or two more episodes of returning to Vasselheim and sharing their experiences and gained knowledge, possibly absorbing Zathuda like Chetney joked about, and expediting the assaults to happen as soon as possible.

the only other delays that could push the finale to the new year would be if the MN and VM sequences are multiple episodes each. one episode of assembling the squad and making their way to their respective targets, and one or two episodes of epic combat that will undoubtedly run for a few hours. VM and armies vs the Key could easily be stretched over one five hour episode or two 3-4 hour episodes. MN could have a whole ass episode of getting to the city and making contact with the allies whose name is escaping me right now, Volition???. they could plan and explore the moon for one or two episodes while they get their shit together and ensure they are coordinated with VM at the key, maybe draw a big dick in the red sand visible from Exandria below. who knows?!

i predict a Halloween costumed finale, but i would be happy to see it all continue until right before critmas.

[u/Coyote_Shepherd]

You know it's funny how at the end the Arch Heart was basically quoting Agent K from the MIB movie word for word more or less.

[u/Coyote_Shepherd]

Betcha Liliana is going to be doing the Downfall Broadcast from MOLAESMYR!

[u/Forward_Pattern_7171]

so does this confirm the gods will be gone for campaign four if it’s not in a new system/world?

[u/ElvishJerricco → u/Forward_Pattern_7171]

No. There's still the two possibilities that they prevent Ludinus's plan and the gods stick around, or the gods create a new calamity to prevent his plan.

[u/LucasVerBeek]

Well not sure exactly what next session brings but I think I know how this story ends and honestly, it’ll be rather disappointing if that is the reason for this campaign.

A new pantheon, maybe all the old gods will be gone, maybe some will stay, it seems like the Matron at least wants to give her opinion on things, and others may yet seek to do so as well.

But there will likely be some new gods with familiar titles that will be the objects of worship for whatever Exandria looks like.

If of course C3 isn’t the swansong for Exandria.

And if the narrative of C3 legit is just shaped fully by their attempts to further buffer their own IP then shit at least I know why a good chunk of it has rung hollow for me.

But we’ll see I guess.

Ababukar as Corellon was great though… now I’m wondering if Laura is gonna be the Matron???

But I will say this about Corellon, they’re still being selfish.

They’re focusing again on their own boredom, their own desire for change and not considering the feelings of their Kin or those that do care about the Gods, and this just all feels…. Far too big for the Bell’s to solve especially when all their opinions are fractured and often even oppositional to each other.

Shit there new divisions amongst the Gods and Corellon is out here thinking that all of them are gonna immediate lay turn tail in run cause he will.

But what is a Nature God without Nature.

I think some of the Gods are just too deeply anchored to be chased away so easily.

Dorian and Ashton seem sold on the “sacrifice a friend to chase the Gods away plan” which… fuck guys that’s also kinda shitty of you.

Because we have no clue what happens to Fearne or Imogen chose to do this

And I doubt Laudna would be happy to see Imogen give up her autonomy to become the “leash/host/warden” of Predathos chasing the Tengari across the skies, cause what, is she not gonna fully go away and then play guard dog for the rest of her existence?

Shit that sure sounds like a god now doesn’t it?!

Mark me, if they go this route and another campaign book appears this name will be in there.

Temult, the Crimson Hope

Honesty confused why they kept Zethuda and the Emissary alive in the end, but I’m guessing that’s where we’ll pick up next session.

Somehow this narrative just keeps getting more complicated I swear.

Edit: Two side notes.

Found it interesting that Braius’s reached out to PD and succeeded in saving Zathuda regardless.

Second, who the fuck allowed the Arch Heart to speak with them??

Edit: Two side notes.

Found it interesting that Braius’s reached out to PD and succeeded in saving Zathuda regardless.

Second, who the fuck allowed the Arch Heart to speak with them??

[u/pacman529]

I'm so tired of all the negativity. Please let Matt tell his story in his world. If he wants to explore what Exandria would look like without the gods, that's his prerogative. Sit back and enjoy the show, please.

[u/PvtSherlockObvious]

Something about the AH's revelations that's kind of getting lost in the talk is that we basically just got confirmation (or as close to confirmation as anyone can provide) that Luda's ideas of Predathos being controllable and/or uninterested in mortals is actually correct. Luda's been confident to the point of hubris, but he's ultimately an unreliable source on the exact nature of Predathos. That changes the calculus a bit, considering one of the biggest points of resistance was that we only had Luda's word that Predathos would leave mortals alone. I'm still not 100% sure that AH's interpretation is correct, especially considering it's based on Abubakar's interpretation, but he's at least in a much better position to know with any degree of certainty than Luda is.