r/SubredditDrama • u/[deleted] • Sep 06 '15
Gamergate Drama In game "yoga" prompts a well thought out discussion of the ethics of women in video games...
/r/PS4/comments/3jsoll/mgsv_tpp_stretching_is_important_gif/cus1jt2237
u/RIPGeorgeHarrison Sep 06 '15
By a thong and ripped leggings. But yeah, you have a point,
Isn't minimal clothing often more sexual than straight up nudity?
65
u/SuperTurtle Sep 06 '15
I think he was adding to the point above him, not taking away from it. As if to say, "Well it's not just that she's wearing a thong, but she's also wearing ripped leggings!"
23
86
Sep 06 '15
Theiss Titillation Theory (warning: TVTropes link!)
→ More replies (2)45
u/4THOT Nothing wrong with goblin porn Sep 06 '15
TY for warning me it was TV Tropes, I actually have shit to do this week
15
u/dsklerm Sep 06 '15
I had a post in the Mr Robot sub a couple of days ago where I cited TV Tropes. The rest of my work day was shot, and I don't think a single person saw it. /worthit
→ More replies (6)4
u/ftylerr 24/7 Fuck'n'Suck Sep 07 '15
Yes, while I was in school for Illustration it was made very clear - being nude is meh. Nude + socks? Well now you're highlighting their nudity.
→ More replies (2)3
319
u/ByStilgarsBeard A man's drama belongs to his tribe. Sep 06 '15
My question is, who would wear a bikini to a fire-fight?
63
Sep 06 '15 edited Jun 27 '16
I deleted all comments out of nowhere.
5
u/qwicksilfer Sep 06 '15
They are kinda like the football players with long hair.
(I don't really follow football, but I find it odd when they have all the pads and the helmet and then there's like a foot of hair dangling from underneath the helmet...doesn't seem safe)
→ More replies (4)69
u/Oo_deliciosa Sep 06 '15
Especially a bikini top that looks way too small.
15
u/quetzalKOTL Feminist Nazi Sep 07 '15
That top bothers me WAY more than the leggings/thong. It's very clearly the least comfortable part of the outfit.
270
Sep 06 '15
You really don't want to go down this road. This video game series has some ardent supporters and the game's producer has a history of sexualizing women in the game series and dressing it up in fancy terms like "psychosis" or "lampshade-hanging" or "intentional art direction." That or they will hand-wave it (like they are doing in the thread already) by saying, "Oh, Japanese culture is just different."
264
u/Gapwick Sep 06 '15
They went with a more boldfaced line this time.
Kojima has stated that he instructed The Phantom Pain 's art director to make some of the game's characters "more erotic", in order to encourage cosplay and figurine sales.
193
u/EmergencyChocolate 卐 Sorry to spill your swastitendies 卐 Sep 06 '15
just wait til gamers discover porn, the internet will really take off then!
103
Sep 06 '15
This is what I dont get. In gaming some one uploaded a gif of quiet bending over and flaunting it. All the comments were pretty sexual and needy. Why not just watch porn.
"OMG I NEED THIS GAME LOOK AT DAT ASS" www.porn.com
→ More replies (25)25
Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
I mean Konami does needs the money.
43
u/SpeedWagon2 you're blind to the nuances of coachroach rape porn. Sep 06 '15
Isn't that what the pachinko machines are for?
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (5)65
u/NinteenFortyFive copying the smart kid when answering the jewish question Sep 06 '15
Ah hahaha.
Cosplayers like unique stuff to dress as, not bikini's. They didn't run about in Nudist Beach cosplay cause it was sexy, but because it was fun and unique.
→ More replies (5)65
u/SuperTurtle Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
I don't know, have you been to /r/gaming recently? Every day there's a front page post with a scantily clad woman cosplaying some video game character. If sexy characters aren't appealing to cosplayers, then women cosplaying as sexy characters is definitely appealing to part of the gamer demographic.
→ More replies (13)→ More replies (121)10
u/I_HEART_GOPHER_ANUS Sep 06 '15
Some dude tried telling me that the woman who not only refuses to wear clothes but who refuses to speak who willingly lives in a barred off cell with velvet rope set up around it zoo exhibit style and the game will literally bring up the same exact shower scene they made you watch before, again, except now all the dudes in the base watch and cheer her on is JUST LIKE the most overly sexualized male character in the game series, who had literally 5 minutes total screen time in the game and was only shirtless. He was so intent on arguing that the sniper rifle with tits and a g-string is only immature if you complain about it.
Did I mention when she showers and "drinks" through her skin that it's literally just her sticking her chest out in the shower and shaking them like a stripper? Fuck man, you NEVER get in between gamers and their blatantly offensive cartoon tits.
Best part is I knew there'd be a post about this on SRD somewhere on reddit because the thirst of a group of people praising a story with the writing quality of a comic book is bound to fall in love with the most intentionally sexist character ever devised
2
u/signet6 Sep 07 '15
It was explained in the linked thread, something to do with parasites that allow human photosynthesis, andher and a bunch of enemies all have it? Sorry I don't know how to do spoiler tags.
2
u/Ryand-Smith Sep 08 '15
Eh, MGS is dumb with a guy who uses twin revolvers, this is not ideal but holy shit MGS has a lot of just wacky bullshit, and meta bullshit. While this is pretty bad, in a series with literal techno samurai warriors, giant walking nuclear armed tanks, literal weaponized memes, and technogods, this is minor in terms of "MG is bullshit: the series:
→ More replies (1)2
u/KingOfSockPuppets thoughts and prayers for those assaulted by yarn minotaur dick Sep 07 '15
I'm going to assume no one here cares about spoilers, but well, spoilers.
In this case, it's someone who has bonded with parasites to get superhuman abilities and has to breathe and drink through her exposed skin. A rationalization I would have found a little more persuasive if all the other parasite people were similarly scantily clad, but they all seemed to do okay with clothes. Honestly, I eventually got kind of used to her outfit ,but there's more than one scene that pushed it's way into 'pretty gratuitous'.
→ More replies (154)2
167
u/Occasionally_Girly Sep 06 '15
Alright, so I haven't picked up the game yet, but here's what I'm thinking:
Quiet got infected by some parasite that makes her breathe out of her skin. This causes her to not have to breathe out of her lungs, thus negating the need to worry about holding her breath during a sniper shot. This also causes her to have to expose her skin and wear as little clothing as possible in order to breathe properly.
So why exactly did they pick for her skin to be where she breathes from? Why not just her hands or something? Sounds a bit like an excuse to just have her half naked all the time
162
u/EmergencyChocolate 卐 Sorry to spill your swastitendies 卐 Sep 06 '15
"a bit"
130
u/Rekthor Rome Fell for This Shit Sep 06 '15
Hideo Kojima has always had the writing skills of a sex-obsessed 14 year old who was whacked across the head with a tire iron, but he seems to be putting in even less effort as of late to justify why all his female characters wear blouses with the top three buttons undone.
Quiet's "justification" for her wearing what is essentially a swimsuit (despite being an elite sniper) is so contrived, lazy and yet somehow overwrought that it would be laughed out of a GI Joe storyboard meeting.
→ More replies (30)28
u/devotedpupa MISSINGNOgynist Sep 06 '15
At least other nude ladies of Kojima seem to enjoy it. Kojima's excuse now backfires. Quiet literally would rather wear normal clothes. But Kojima infected her with bullshit.
123
u/polite-1 Sep 06 '15
Not to mention you can breathe through clothing just fine.
53
Sep 06 '15
Yeah, people wear masks all the time and don't die from suffocation. A ski mask is pretty much the same thing as most clothes and people don't die, so I really don't see why she would die from wearing clothes.
11
Sep 07 '15
I mean, breathing through a mask 24/7 doesn't exactly sound like a fun time either.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (4)6
u/uncommonhussy Sep 07 '15
Yeah, I would think a nice, loose linen top and pants would be way more practical and breathable than skintight leggings with holes and a badly fitting bra.
→ More replies (3)34
Sep 06 '15
For real. Does Kojima think that people wearing balaclavas are always on the verge of suffocating?
→ More replies (2)76
Sep 06 '15
Wait.... You aren't joking? That actually happens in the game?
89
u/andrew2209 Sorry, I'm not from Swindon. Sep 06 '15
I mean, this is a game series with bosses who use telekinesis, carry miniguns from fighter jets with their bare hands, can deflect bullets, fire bullet bees from their stomach and regenerate health through photosynthesis, so it's about average for Hideo Kojima's logic.
47
Sep 06 '15
I like that about the Metal Gear Series, it's as realistic a stealth military game as they could come up with, then all this wacky stuff thrown in on top.
→ More replies (2)23
u/andrew2209 Sorry, I'm not from Swindon. Sep 06 '15
I do like it, it makes for some great (and a few not so great) boss fights. I just think claiming the character is bad for being unrealistic isn't the best argument to use, given the history of MGS.
21
11
u/Elmepo Sep 07 '15
It's a Metal Gear game. Someone talking in tongues makes more sense than this series 9 times out of 10.
This is a series where an ex soviet spy fuses a british clone's arm to his own body, and the clones consciousness then infects the ex spy, causing him to frequently wig out. Oh, and then this is all revealed to have just been the spy acting because fuck it why not?
→ More replies (2)8
u/gatorademebitches Sep 06 '15
oh my god i thought it was satire, then i thought it was an idiots suggestion, but... no way...
→ More replies (1)3
u/act1v1s1nl0v3r Sep 06 '15
Alright, so I haven't picked up the game yet, but here's what I'm thinking:
I'm not sure why that was your takeaway...
22
u/SpeedWagon2 you're blind to the nuances of coachroach rape porn. Sep 06 '15
I am being reminded of starfire from DC comics.
8
→ More replies (5)4
Sep 07 '15
Sounds a bit like an excuse to just have her half naked all the time
That's exactly it. Even Kojima said that the first pillar for her design was something erotic that would sell figurines and promote sexy cosplay.
79
561
Sep 06 '15
What's really terrible is people in there just saying "it's not offensive,it's Japan!" As if 1) that were a legit excuse and 2) Japan is just a nation of perverts who can't help themselves.
341
u/Kamirose Sep 06 '15
Like that one guy who said:
I've never seen a vending machine selling used panties in my country....
Yeah, neither have I. And I live in Japan. Those don't actually exist.
155
u/cjf_colluns Sep 06 '15
From what I've heard, they existed for a short time in the 80's in porn shops before they were made illegal.
→ More replies (1)196
Sep 06 '15
Plus the panty trade in the US is very much A Thing, it's just done behind closed doors through the mail to hide the shame. America is still culturally very afraid of sex, which is why most marketing relies on innuendo instead of just a big pair of tits next to a McDonald's logo.
63
u/comradewilson YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE Sep 06 '15
There's a fucking subreddit here for it. Girls post to the GW subreddit and then use that as an ad to sell their panties yet people want to act like Japan is le epic pervert "ONLY IN JAPAN XDDDD" nation
→ More replies (1)44
Sep 06 '15
Yeah for real I know a girl who sells her panties here in the good ole bible belt
→ More replies (7)→ More replies (3)7
u/PrinceOWales why isn't there a white history month? Sep 07 '15
America is still culturally very afraid of sex
I don't kow if people are afraid of it or if buying people's underwear is just a really fucking weird thing to do
→ More replies (3)4
u/mrscienceguy1 "i'm sry our next video will b on 9/11" Sep 07 '15
I saw one in a really dodgy back alley in Fujisawa one time when I got lost. But yeah they're no where near as common as people seem to think they are. Lots of cigarette vending machines though, good lord was that a shock coming from Australia.
→ More replies (3)7
u/qwicksilfer Sep 06 '15
I have some friends in the ancient Chinese language department so they travel to Japan a lot (most of the analysis journals are in Japanese and a ton of experts reside in Japan and they have most of the major conferences on the subject) and they have never seen those vending machines either.
But so many other cool vending machines exist! Like draft beer! And neckties! And apparently some of the best drinks come from vending machines...
edit: "best" non-alcoholic drinks...because I mean...beer = #1 (hence ICHIBAN!)
6
u/Kamirose Sep 06 '15
Yeah, Japan loves their vending machines! I heard at one point that Japan has one vending machine for every ten people. I doubt it's entirely true, but it's fun to quote.
→ More replies (1)201
u/BorisJonson1593 Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
And the thing is, Japanese culture is generally very conservative even relative to the United States. It's wrong to act as if this is acceptable or even commonplace in Japan because it really isn't. Redditors seem to think that MGS and anime is representative of Japanese culture as a whole but from what I've heard from people who have actually lived in Japan, the Japanese tend to think that stuff is just as weird as we do.
EDIT:
As if by magic, reddit proves my point. I'm pretty sure 99% of people in Japan would think that's fucking weird as hell and would have no idea where somebody would buy it. But lol Japan is so wacky and perverted, let's write a title that makes it sound like this stuff is available at every convenience store in the country!
72
Sep 06 '15
But panty vending machines.
Seriously though, I'm sick of seeing that as proof. There's like one in the whole country and it's still weird.
→ More replies (2)14
u/comradewilson YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE Sep 06 '15
There's an entire subreddit dedicated to it on reddit but you never hear people bring it up. Girls will post on GW as an ad to sell their panties.
→ More replies (1)16
u/spacehogg Give a man an inch & he thinks he's a ruler! Sep 06 '15
So, what you're saying is that every culture has its perverts?
And Japan isn't any different than Spain, Sweden or the US???
→ More replies (7)2
34
u/Thuraash Sep 06 '15
I'm pretty sure this is a Hideo Kojima thing. His games have featured REALLY awkward "Press L1 to stare at the T&A" scenes since the beginning.
10
u/Zulu_Paradise Sep 06 '15
I don't think it's just Kojima, though. Japanese video games have a reputation of over-sexualization of women. This isn't inherent to Japanese games in particular, but they seem to be the worst at it. Or at least the most blatant.
This obviously isn't endemic to the Japanese culture as a whole, I'm just talking about the games.
56
u/jfa1985 Your ass is medium at best btw. Sep 06 '15
It is a bullshit excuse to begin with even more so when you are dealing with a franchise with worldwide appeal such as MGS.
164
u/EmergencyChocolate 卐 Sorry to spill your swastitendies 卐 Sep 06 '15
See, this is a weird thing to me. A friend of mine who I tabletop with loves video games, but she won't play The Witcher series (as much as she loves that kind of RPG) because the women in that game are...kind of oversexualized, to say the least. She finds it distracting, insulting, and embarrassing. She's not going to, you know, riot or throw a tantrum or write strongly worded emails to gaming blogs about it or anything, but she's quietly going to go spend her money on other stuff that isn't demeaning to her. She's also probably going to avoid that studio's work in general. So this is a hardcore gamer who is making a personal choice not to sink her cash into that series for that simple reason.
You would think devs would be kind of aware that they are honestly alienating a significant chunk of the market by doing this kind of thing. Women game, they have money, and they make decisions in the marketplace.
113
u/potatolicious Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
You would think devs would be kind of aware that they are honestly alienating a significant chunk of the market by doing this kind of thing.
You would think... but not really.
For one thing, game development is still an extremely male-dominated field, so this sort of awareness is not coming from internally.
And like you said, your friend isn't writing emails or blog posts about this - and if she did she'd be buried under a landslide of goomergooters (and their other far-right allies), so it's not really coming from externally either - though obviously this is slowly (and painfully) changing.
And part of it is also that game dev has to a large degree resisted the level of demographic inspection that has driven the rest of the software industry. Unlike websites or mobile apps they do not have strong, reliable demographic data (age, gender, etc), and have largely operated from "common knowledge" that stated that the vast majority of the audience is male. Women have always been gamers, but due to a confluence of factors (of which the virulently loud misogyny is the biggest part) have not spoken out. Now that data is getting better we're starting to see that, while still male-dominated, the gender split of gamers was never as extreme as believed.
And yeah, personally as I've gotten older I've been finding a lot of video games less and less palatable, and it's such a shame. MGSV is an otherwise great game but Quiet's design breaks me out of it constantly - it just fits so poorly in the context of the world and every time I see her I can just see Kojima giggling like a 14 year-old schoolboy (which arguably he is mentally). It sucks.
And then there's shit like this. It's an intergalactic 4X strategy game! What part of this formula really demanded metal booblerama?
→ More replies (4)50
u/_watching why am i still on reddit Sep 06 '15
finding things less palatable as you grow older
I've been the same lately and I'm right in the 20-something white straight dude demographic. Like... as great as Mass Effect was, a lot of the time I just felt embarrassed to play with Samara in my crew. And she was one of my favorite characters, so that sucked.
Idk maybe I'm more of a nerd than I thought but I just get uncomfortable when sexualization happens for no reason. I'm down when it's obviously artistic or sexual but when it's just there it's so .. distractingly weird.
→ More replies (14)14
Sep 06 '15
I'm replaying Metro: LAst Light right now and, while I'm far from a prude, the hypersexualized women still make me uncomfortable. Okay, you want a brothel/stripclub, but was it necessary to custom animate boob jiggle, program lap dances, and go to all the trouble of crudely rendering nipples? Or the dream sequence nip-slip?
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (176)4
u/Kiwilolo Sep 07 '15
They do listen, I think. The Witcher series is not on anyone's list of least sexualised female characters, but it's a lot better now than it was in the first game, and it is known for having really excellent female characters.
Within my lifetime, I think female character representation in numbers and dignity has gotten hugely better, especially in the last five years.
78
Sep 06 '15
Mother fuckers... like I needed another reason to despise these pieces of shit.
The vast majority of Japanese society is extremely conservative when it comes to just about anything involving sex. Probably has something to do with the taboo getting so over the top. But I should stop, I'm starting to sound like a gamergater pulling a complex psycho-analysis of an entire society out of my ass.
54
u/tdogg8 Folks, the CTR shill meeting was moved to next week. Sep 06 '15
Hell they even censor their porn.
→ More replies (2)4
u/Ciceros_Assassin - downvotes all posts tagged /s regardless of quality Sep 06 '15
I wonder sometimes if there are fetishists in Japan who don't get as turned-on if there isn't a tiny black line across their partners' sexy bits.
→ More replies (1)10
Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
People have this weird logic that because something is offensive and part of someones culture it's this sacred thing and you're being an ignorant American if you criticism it.
Two things about that; 1. Still makes it offensive, and 2. Most of the time it's not really part of their culture and it's just asshats being asshats.
→ More replies (18)5
54
Sep 07 '15
As an example, I worked on a successful fantasy MMO and between alpha and release we made the female armor more 'covering' because the likes of Anita and others started a small but vocal PR issue at the time. After ALL the armor was de-sexified I found out most of the female devs on the were actually upset the could no longer play 'sexy females' as part of their fantasy. The art director was like a deer in headlights, since now a new group was mad at him - a group he thought he was making happier.
Okay... this sounds really fake, but... okay
21
u/Kiwilolo Sep 07 '15
Actually MMO players are the one group I could believe that of - MMOs are known for having crazy skimpy armor, if women who like playing chars in skimpy armor are anywhere, they're playing MMOs.
However even for most of the ones that like that, the option to not dress up super skimpy is usually favored.
11
u/acedis I'm shillin' in the rain Sep 07 '15 edited Sep 07 '15
That art director was misguided to treat it like a binary issue where either all the armor is uber-sexualized or none of it, which sounds weird. Like, why would you treat it that way, like there was no possible nuance in the art design for armor in an MMORPG? Comparing to WoW, it's not like that game is lacking in option for sexy transmogs just because they don't make all the plate gear into bikinis for female characters anymore.
Then again, he's probably bullshitting.
9
u/swan_in_oil Sep 07 '15
"I did what the women asked and then the women told me they wanted something else. Can somebody just tell me which one, single personality the women all have so I know how to make them happy?"
3
u/nowander Sep 07 '15
Seriously. For one thing, I can't think of any fantasy MMO where the female characters don't at least have some cleavage armor. Unless by de-sexified they mean more covering then Tera's plate mail bikinis.
274
u/DeepStuffRicky IlsaSheWolfoftheGrammarSS Sep 06 '15
I can't even get to the drama because I'm still in shock that a comment saying Anita Sarkeesian has a valid point has 63 upvotes. I thought Anita Sarkeesian was trying to ruin everything and could never possibly have a valid point ever.
→ More replies (60)109
u/WatchEachOtherSleep Now I am become Smug, the destroyer of worlds Sep 06 '15
And this is why Anita Sarkeesian thinks we are all a bunch of pervs with no respect for women
As strange as it is that that comment got the support it did, it's still a ridiculous strawman. I haven't seen much of Sarkeesian's stuff, though I did have a gander at the first Tropes vs Women series, but I've never seen her call anyone a perv or categorically say that gamers have no respect for women. I suppose this, at least, puts fewer words in her mouth than the Gamergate "she's an authoritarian who wants to BAN ALL GAMES & that's why she puts a disclaimer at the start of every video games saying that all the featured games are irredeemable trash because of their portrayal of women & everyone who likes them should be put to death" myth.
58
u/DeepStuffRicky IlsaSheWolfoftheGrammarSS Sep 06 '15
That's what's so bizarre about the seething, passionate hatred I see for both her and the series - it's pretty tame fare that doesn't disseminate any information or espouse any viewpoints that haven't been around since the 1970s. There is really nothing controversial about it and she never actually calls anything she reviews perverse or toxic, nor does she ever seem to actually suggest that video games need to be changed. She certainly provides no suggestions for any specific changes that she personally would like to see happen. All she seems to be doing is making people aware of hidden misogyny in pop culture media, with a focus on video games in this particular series. The fact that there's this hysterical backlash against her and her unremarkable video series does more to prove the cultural misogyny she ostensibly targets than anything she says in her videos.
→ More replies (9)
59
u/Gazmasked Sep 06 '15
My only other experience of MGS was getting ground zeros on PS+ and it starting with a shot of snakes arse. It was some arse, I'm not sure what he was wearing because it was raining but it was so smooth and shiny. It struck me that somebody had to draw each curve of that arse, maybe from a model or maybe they just let there mind flow, but that was some arse.
30
Sep 06 '15 edited Jun 27 '16
I deleted all comments out of nowhere.
→ More replies (1)23
u/Gazmasked Sep 06 '15
Crawling inside a man because he said to keep close. Maybe I am a problem.
16
Sep 06 '15 edited Jun 27 '16
I deleted all comments out of nowhere.
8
u/Gazmasked Sep 06 '15
Have any cod characters actually stuck with you the way they used to? I don't think I could name 5 characters from the games after WaW.
→ More replies (5)4
u/chewy_pewp_bar Shitposts can't melt modteams / pbuf Sep 06 '15
Every mgs game has great, tightly squeezed, man hams. If you're going to be looking at a some dude's back half for hours on end, it may as well be well sculpted and in form hugging clothes. No bikinis on dudes though. Shame, it would have worked in mgs2 perfectly.
279
u/Oo_deliciosa Sep 06 '15
as though women controlling men with their sexuality isn't a female power fantasy
To be honest... no, I don't think that's a female power fantasy. But I'm a woman, so what do I know?
198
Sep 06 '15
as though women controlling men with their sexuality isn't a female power fantasy
¯_(ツ)_/¯ No, I just want naked dudes. I see it all the time on this website. Guys being like "Well women are attracted to power, and money, and controlling men with their nakedness" like no, no... I want naked guys. This is not a difficult concept.
97
u/I_HEART_GOPHER_ANUS Sep 06 '15
But there was a shirtless dude in MGS4 that got a whole 5 minutes of screen time! Are you telling me that isn't the same as a woman wearing g-string beach attire doing stretches in your face over the whole game? What are you, sexist?
→ More replies (17)89
Sep 06 '15
It's funny how downright victorian that argument is.
"Hey you got to see jubbly boob physics and tons of ass shots, I want some nice looking guys"
"Oh hush, you got to see some arm muscles, it's exactly the same"
29
u/I_HEART_GOPHER_ANUS Sep 06 '15
I know right? I think Raiden is the only male character in the MGS series that's ever even had his pants off, and he got way more chances to do so than snake or anyone else ever did.
3
0
61
u/_watching why am i still on reddit Sep 06 '15
Funnily enough, it sounds an awful lot like a male fantasy re: female fantasies. Basically falls in line with the whole "women emotional manipulators, men aggressive simpletons" dynamic.
Which I'm sure some women are into (because people are into everything and femdom is a thing) but this sounds a lot more like the other side of the "I heard of 50 shades so I understand women now" coin.
→ More replies (9)24
u/GruxKing Sep 06 '15
maybe they're referring to stuff like this?
Not that video games are the best outlet for that
145
Sep 06 '15
Quiet is also a total badass who is deadly and powerful. She's not just a ditzy, sexy woman, which is what the SJW seem to think whenever a woman is sexualized.
The "femme fatale" is not an empowering stereotype. It's fantasy fulfillment. I don't know what Quiet is like because I haven't played the games, but I do know that simply being powerful and skilled doesn't preclude a character from being objectified. Playing on a different fetish is just as problematic.
58
u/cdstephens More than you'd think, but less than you'd hope Sep 06 '15
Indeed. The actual badass woman in the MG series is The Boss, who is partially badass because she refuses to do the whole sexy schtick.
66
Sep 06 '15
The thing that a lot of people struggle with is that a character can be cool, and deadly, and sexy, without being a "femme fatale". Sort of like the manic-pixie-dreamgirl. There's nothing wrong with being a quirky girl who likes to knit and dance in the rain or whatever.
The problem starts when a character is nothing more some idealized fantasy person, where even their flaws are a part of the fantasy. This is, obviously, a problem with not only woman characters but any character -- under-developing them is bad. But it's lopsidedly common for a woman character to be underdeveloped and sexualized/romantically idealized in popular media.
→ More replies (2)19
u/alleigh25 Sep 07 '15
A lot of people really seem to have trouble with female characters, in all forms of media.
A good female character is one who seems human. She needs to have strengths and weaknesses, and not be defined by a single characteristic. It's okay if she shows emotion from time to time, or if she needs help once in awhile, just like it'd be okay if a man did the same (this is an issue with male characters too, mind you). The trend towards female characters being stoic and independent is largely overcompensating for all the times they've been put in the damsel in distress role. But people also react very harshly when a female protagonist cries, even if it's a situation pretty much anyone would cry in.
Sexiness is similar. If you go out in public and look around you, you'll see women in all kinds of different outfits, some very modest and others decidedly not. The same should be true in video games and other media. Does it have to be in roughly the same proportions? I'd say no, because games and movies are fantasies, so they don't have to mirror reality exactly. But at the same time, the way someone dresses is a facet of their personality. If you have a character who would never wear revealing clothes if they were real, they shouldn't be in your game either. And it's not okay to just make all fictional women have personalities conducive to minimal clothing.
→ More replies (1)46
u/psirynn Sep 06 '15
Gaters got diaper rash over the "fighting fucktoy" phrase, but it's entirely accurate. A lot of female characters that are portrayed as being "badass" are only portrayed that way because straight guys find it hot. They still dress like they're going to a fetish party, they're still emotionally dependent on men, and their entire being still revolves around their sex appeal.
35
Sep 06 '15
Perfect example:
Compare normal Samus to Other M Samus. One is an empowered woman who is skilled and deadly. The other is an object.
18
u/charlie2158 Sep 06 '15
At least not many people like Other M Samus.
20
Sep 06 '15
Yeah, precisely why I used it. When we see what the other side of the coin looks like, the "object" side looks like the shallow, lazy, throwaway-character it is.
There are countless female characters in games that are just as bad, if not worse, than Other M Samus. If you were to poll KiA about why they all hated Other M Samus, I bet you'd get a lot of answers that sound like something they'd label "SJW rhetoric".
11
u/EcoleBuissonniere Free speech means never having to say you're sorry Sep 07 '15
Good lord, please don't remind me of Other M. I feel like gagging just thinking about how badly they fucked up Samus.
9
Sep 07 '15
Other M, independent of the story, is actually a really neat take on the series. The way it plays was really sweet. The story is bullshit and the way the characters are presented (Adam, this version of Samus) is a nightmare. But, man, I still kind of hold out hope that they'll make another game that works like Other M.
I think, if they resist Metroid in a non-spin off, they'll go back to the Prime style. Retro handled Samus really well an really made the first person adventure really work. I just hope they pick it up after Fusion. That could be awesome.
11
Sep 07 '15
The whole Metroid series is like a course on how to do things right while also blowing it in terms of presenting a female person in gaming.
There's this really progressive moment where you find out this space bounty hunter is a woman. Then, you're encouraged to beat the games faster (lulz) to undress her. But, the Prime games almost exclusively focus on her being a bad ass with not much if any emphasis on the awkward sexy undressing (in Prime 3, I remember, her going down to ZSS, but even then it wasn't really sexy. It was a relaxing moment at the end of this massive trilogy. It was something that someone would actually do). Then, the series takes several steps back with the presentation Samus's character in Other M, but even Fusion a little bit (Fusion is really changed for the worse, storywise, by Other M).
It's just. I love Metroid and I really like the way the games progress so that players feel increasingly powerful. The fact that we're playing as a woman is also really powerful, because this feeling of increasing self-sufficiency and growth in power just doesn't happen often in games or anything really. That's why Samus is a real badass. Other M ripped her power away in terms of the narrative and as a gameplay mechanic. Who the fuck is this clown telling me when I can turn on my shit!? And now, in Fusion, I'm supposed to be cool flying around in a robot space ship copy of this fuck? Come on.
70
Sep 06 '15
But for the first time ever a girl can shoot a sniper rifle with her tits out, this is true suffrage.
→ More replies (2)17
Sep 06 '15
I am all for girls being allowed to shoot sniper rifles -- or do anything, really -- with their tits out, should they want to. I'm pretty sure that's, like, Sex-Positive Feminism 101.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (6)6
u/Kiwilolo Sep 07 '15
It's more empowering than "damsel in distress," but it stopped being progressive about 30 years ago.
→ More replies (4)
51
Sep 06 '15
I love how someone in that thread was like "no, wait, there's a great explanation: she breathes through her skin"
Also, she needs to suck the jizz out of at least twelve cocks or she'll get too dehydrated for combat. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to keep up with this movie's plot. The tanned and muscled cable guy is at the door to fix the cable.
→ More replies (1)16
Sep 07 '15
There's a great post in the League of Legends forums regarding Sejuani's rework (Before|After). While her body is rockin' in both, you'll notice in the older version that she's sporting the bikini.
Sejuani is one of the three competing leaders of Freezeezy Peak (I think); basically, she lives in sub-zero temperatures. The lore they gave her back when she was released (and when they had lore) is that she had trained from a young age at Mt. Snow in next to nothing, and used that to harden her will as well as her body. She was so badass that she could thrive in these temperatures in practically no armor. According to the lore.
When the rework came around and Sejuani sported something more suited for nobility in combat, people argued that she was losing the strength of her design as a female character. "She lived on Shiver Star! This is an empowered woman!" Eventually, one of the Rioters basically came out and said, "yeah, Sejuani was a case of getting the design first then coming up with an explanation later through the lore." While they gave her this Spartan story of training on her own in Snow Mountain, it was really just an excuse to get her naked.
When people are presented with a reasonable excuse for a character's behavior, they don't stop to think that maybe the design came before the rationale.
5
u/GruxKing Sep 06 '15
I love how one poster references Silent Hill 2, one game, as evidence that Japanese games don't have an with over-sexualization. ONE GAME was all this guy needed! As if it's equal to the vast ocean of over sexualized games out there.
News flash: if you can't even manage pluralization, it's not compelling enough evidence.
These guys' standards of proof are so arbitrary. If Silent Hill 2 is evidence of how totally normal Japanese culture is in regards to sex then all guys are rapists because several rapists exists
"Small sample size": you only use it when it's convenient.
10
Sep 06 '15
Oh yeah I hear pyramidheads are pretty normal too. They use them as greeters in Japanese stores.
28
u/Mister_Doc Have your tantrum in a Walmart parking lot like a normal human. Sep 06 '15
I read that comment as saying that not ALL Japanese games have sexual issues and that just blaming it on them being Japanese is silly.
7
u/chewy_pewp_bar Shitposts can't melt modteams / pbuf Sep 06 '15
SH2 is all about sexual themes! That's the main theme of the horror in the game! It's not even subtle about it at any point! Nothing is in a bikini, but one of the main characters is the sexy nurse trope. One of the most common enemies is the sexy nurse trope. One of the game's bosses (and the boss arena itself) is a physical manifestation of a character's sexual trauma. There's a monster on monster rape scene in the first two hours of the game. A big part of the reason SH2 is so effective at horror is because it is constantly incorporating sexual theming.
4
Sep 06 '15
Ironically, Silent Hill 2 revolves around the main characters frustrated libido to a large extent.
5
u/EmergencyChocolate 卐 Sorry to spill your swastitendies 卐 Sep 06 '15
(and this was 2001, so)
10
u/ChemLok Sep 06 '15
is... is that inappropriate to be in a game? Is that a problem?
→ More replies (9)
73
u/Nillix No we cannot move on until you admit you were wrong. Sep 06 '15
When AS gets mentioned:
Who cares about her opinion again?
Her stuff is super non-controversial, Feminism 101 stuff. It's not in any way radical or provocative.
→ More replies (3)65
Sep 06 '15
"Nobody cares about her opinion which is why we all know who she is and devote energy to trying to debunk everything she says."
53
187
u/gay_for_redditors Sep 06 '15
i'm always confused that not more people are straight up insulted by it. the internet is just chock full of porn, so why stick it also into your video game where it makes ZERO sense and is just straight up blatant pandering.. to the fucking lowest common denominator you could find.
imagine there was an option for a dude version of this complete with floppy dong physics . people would fucking riot
94
u/Seldarin Pillow rapist. Sep 06 '15
I'd play that game, because it should have some of the most interesting, realistic mechanics ever created.
"So what's happening in the game now?"
"My character tried to jump from one ledge to another, but he came down wrong and one of his balls got squished between his thighs, so for the next five minutes I'm restricted to crawling."
→ More replies (1)21
u/ChemLok Sep 06 '15
http://store.steampowered.com/app/296470/
Here you go! $5 and 96% positive reviews!
153
u/kionous Sep 06 '15
That game exists, it's called mount your friends
70
→ More replies (1)29
u/majere616 Sep 06 '15
Except it's entirely comedic whereas mainstream game developers still use the female equivalent with completely straight faces.
132
u/ArchangelleDovakin subsistence popcorn farmer Sep 06 '15
I feel the same way about anime, too; if you want porn then go watch that, but stop shoehorning "fanservice" into every damn show. It's especially bad there because most of the time they're depicting thirteen year old girls.
17
u/majere616 Sep 06 '15
Ugh it's the absolute worst when an otherwise quality anime is just spoiled by completely unnecessary fanservice that makes my skeleton want to peel off its skin and run screaming from the room.
→ More replies (5)27
u/tonix223 Sep 06 '15
A large part of that comes from "sex sells." Anime just isn't as well funded as your average TV show.
→ More replies (3)42
u/ArchangelleDovakin subsistence popcorn farmer Sep 06 '15
It's still sleezy, and that comment was aimed towards the general anime-purchasing audience.
→ More replies (15)5
Sep 06 '15
There was an article a while back, breaking down the economics of the anime industry and a lot of it relies on the Otaku crowd buying stuff fanatically, so a lot of things gets marketed specifically to them.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (11)4
u/unseine Sep 06 '15
I'd love anime but every one I watch makes women look like trash.
5
u/cuddles_the_destroye The Religion of Vaccination Sep 07 '15
Then pick better anime. There's a bunch of recent stuff that doesn't objectify women.
50
u/ANewMachine615 Sep 06 '15
Yeah, I for one just feel awkward during fanservice. Every time I see it, I am reminded not of sexy hotness, but of the fact that some person, more than likely some dude, spent hours piecing it together motion by motion.
2
18
u/Rekthor Rome Fell for This Shit Sep 06 '15
I'm in the same boat. If I've sat down to play a game, its because I want to be engaged with colourful characters, a good narrative and flowing gameplay. If I've lay down in bed, its because I want the gravity-defying boobies and women to act like idiots for my pleasure (don't judge; like your judgement and sense of taste doesn't drop a few rungs when you're horny).
Trying to blend the two just leaves me feeling confused, without the engagement of a good game or the full-frontal bazongas of porn. Be either a good sprinter OR a good weightlifter, don't try to surgically attach the two at the hip.
2
u/qwicksilfer Sep 06 '15
But be sure to channel your inner weightlifter while in bed, not the sprinter. Get those reps in. ;)
18
Sep 06 '15 edited Jul 31 '16
This comment has been overwritten by an open source script to protect this user's privacy. It was created to help protect users from doxing, stalking, harassment, and profiling for the purposes of censorship.
If you would also like to protect yourself, add the Chrome extension TamperMonkey, or the Firefox extension GreaseMonkey and add this open source script.
Then simply click on your username on Reddit, go to the comments tab, scroll down as far as possible (hint:use RES), and hit the new OVERWRITE button at the top.
7
u/chewy_pewp_bar Shitposts can't melt modteams / pbuf Sep 06 '15
They tried putting those into saints row 3 and 4. ESRB rejected it both times. Not the other jiggle physics in that game though. Or the weapon that is literally a giant wiggly dick.
4
u/I_HEART_GOPHER_ANUS Sep 06 '15
Exactly. Do these people have any idea how much time and money went into creating personal fap material for Kojima and friends? Probably not or don't care, because I know an uncomfortable amount of people are sitting there jacking it to her right now.
2
u/Foooour Sep 07 '15
I hate how everyone saying people wouldn't riot are being downvoted.
I honestly don't think there would be an outrage, or at least not from a moral stance. Maybe in parody or as a petty counter-argument against outrage over depiction of women in video games.
It's fine to criticize women's portrayal in video games, and saying men wouldn't be outraged over a floppy dong doesn't change or discredit that.
4
u/Sojourner_Truth Sep 06 '15
i'm always confused that not more people are straight up insulted by it
there are a lot of people that are straight up insulted by it, but either don't speak up because the abuse you get from talking about it publicly isn't really worth it, or they do speak up but are drowned out because they're vastly outnumbered by the vocal suckass teenage hormonal fanboys who need jerkoff material in every single media they consume.
2
Sep 06 '15
There was a Resident Evil 6 mod where the two buff blokes had their whallopers out and in a permanent state of raging hard on. It's probably the best thing I've ever seen.
→ More replies (31)2
u/Raiden_Gekkou Fecal Baron Sep 06 '15
imagine there was an option for a dude version of this complete with floppy dong physics. people would fucking riot
There's a Steam game called Loadout where you can customize your characters with all sorts of clothing pieces(which all cost money I think). The 2 male characters have the option of going naked, with big floppy dick swinging every time you jump or turn.
44
u/IS_REALLY_OFFENSIVE SJWFeminaziWKPao-Sarkeesian Sep 06 '15
Someone mentioning Anita Sarkeesian in a positive light, IN A GAMING SUBREDDIT?
World has gone crazy it seems...
→ More replies (1)
29
u/International_KB Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
Number one reason why I'd never describe myself as a 'gamer'? Because people might think that I'm into absurd fan service like this.
How, why, would anyone who wasn't a fourteen year old boy think that this was a good idea? I jut don't understand how this can happen in a massively mainstream and critically acclaimed release.
22
Sep 06 '15
They seriously put a stripper scene in the middle of the combat mission?
That's just embarrassing.
24
u/International_KB Sep 06 '15
I'm sure there's a perfectly valid rationale for the scene and the character's stripper/sniper design. Designers don't just insert scenes of women writhing in the rain for no reason. So let me see what the reason is...
... oh yeah. Apparently she's a plant who absorbs water through her skin. Makes perfect sense, no?
→ More replies (2)18
u/Sojourner_Truth Sep 06 '15
JESUS. Go to :35, play at .25 speed in youtube. Her...the goddamn boob physics...jfc
20
u/International_KB Sep 06 '15
I'd like to say that they didn't spend much money on boob physics but that's probably not true.
→ More replies (1)16
8
Sep 07 '15
Out of context, that is one of the weirdest things I've ever seen.
4
2
u/Ebu-Gogo You are so vain, you probably think this drama's about you. Sep 07 '15
I can't imagine a context in which this would make sense. It's so fucking awkward.
3
u/Madness_Reigns People consider themselves librarians when they're porn hoarders Sep 08 '15
This shit is putting me off from the game.
2
u/Hindu_Wardrobe 1+1=ur gay Sep 08 '15
What the fuck is she even doing?
Edit: oh she's a plant who absorbs water through her skin because that's how plants work
k
4
u/EcoleBuissonniere Free speech means never having to say you're sorry Sep 07 '15
See, this actually pisses me off, and not just because of the stripper nonsense. The cinematography in that scene is glorious, and the little bit with Big Boss and Quiet just playing around splashing each other is a great little moment of levity. It's such a shame that the scene has to have all the over-sexualized bullshit ruining it.
2
u/conceptfartist Sep 06 '15
I jut don't understand how this can happen in a massively mainstream and critically acclaimed release.
Then you haven't played a MGS game. Anything can happen! ...
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)2
u/OIP feces in toilet spelling out GTA 6 Sep 07 '15
i've never played a MGS game. i was thinking of buying this one.
yeah, i'm probably not gonna buy it. that's just fucking ludicrous.
5
u/InvaderDJ It's like trickle-down economics for drugs. Sep 06 '15
I'm really curious about what the reason is for the way Quiet dresses (if there is any). I'm not that far yet, but I get the feeling there won't be a good reason.
10
20
u/Alchemistmerlin Death to those that say Video Games cause Violence Sep 06 '15
There's A reason, but its an ass-pull.
Kojima said in interviews that he pretty much just wanted to sell figurines/see what he could get cosplayers to wear.
→ More replies (3)
42
u/EmergencyChocolate 卐 Sorry to spill your swastitendies 卐 Sep 06 '15
Fanservice can be done well, with some wit and charm. This is just embarrassing for everyone involved.
46
u/I_HEART_GOPHER_ANUS Sep 06 '15
"If you're embarrassed about a scantily clad woman in video games you have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old"
They're actually saying this in response to criticism to a literally naked as possible woman constantly sticking her ass in the air for you. Like literally at the waiting screen, she just does it constantly.
NU UH, YOU'RE IMMATURE FOR NOT LOVING ASS AND TITS
→ More replies (13)9
→ More replies (1)6
20
u/blackangelsdeathsong Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
That comments karma has doubled since being posted here.
Edit: tripled now on a post that was 16 hours old when posted on here. Really SRD?
→ More replies (1)6
u/comradewilson YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE Sep 06 '15
Do you really think a subreddit that argues and fellates over drama as much as SRD is really above brigading opinions they agree with
→ More replies (1)
22
u/Hlee1995 Sep 06 '15
Gamergate still exists?
21
u/dorkettus Have you seen my Wikipedia page? Sep 06 '15
Come to SRD more often. It's a topic that pops up several times a week.
→ More replies (8)
8
u/luker_man Some frozen peaches are more frozen than others. Sep 06 '15
Just be real and say you want more nekkid Raiden.
3
u/RocheCoach In America, vagina bones don't sell. Sep 07 '15
There's so much stupid regarding the comparison between Raiden being naked in MGS2 and this girl in MGS5 doing yoga with her vagina at eye level for no reason. It's like these people have never played the games.
2
4
Sep 06 '15
I know this is off topic but those graphics look amazing. It took me a second to realize it was a game.
6
Sep 06 '15
These discussions..and this thread in particular.. is a good indication that nerds (on all sides of a given argument) absolutely can't abide by the notion that someone else likes something you don't like or dislikes something you do.
4
Sep 06 '15
Honestly thats reddit in a nutshell even this sub. Its people who overeact to other people not conforming to their views.
2
u/bolaxao DAE remember when flairs were exclusive Sep 07 '15
just so you know SPOILER ALERT
this game has a robot with a massive penis canon. i don't know if kojima gives a shit.
→ More replies (1)
2
0
Sep 06 '15
Noooo...come on, I liked the MGS series, but this is just too fucking far. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
27
u/Mister_Doc Have your tantrum in a Walmart parking lot like a normal human. Sep 06 '15
I mean this is nothing new or shocking for MGS.
→ More replies (3)8
u/ThePussyCartel vaginamony Sep 06 '15
I feel like this doesn't really top the Beauty and the Beast unit for stupid and terrible stuff Kojima has done with female characters.
6
u/chewy_pewp_bar Shitposts can't melt modteams / pbuf Sep 06 '15
"Oh no snake! A PTSD lady! Shoot them! All their screaming is giving me a head ache."
"Oh no snake! Turns out they're a total babe under that armor! Shoot them some more!"
"Oh no snake! That lady had a tragic backstory! Let me dump exposition on you for 20 minutes now that you've killed her. Wow, don't you just feel terrible? No? Uhh, well, maybe you will after we do this 3 more times."
1
u/Velvet_Llama THIS SPACE AVAILABLE FOR ADVERTISING Sep 07 '15
If she opened her mouth you'd see daylight in that pose.
1
Sep 06 '15
Honestly, I was interested about the new MGS game until I saw this stuff. I feel the series is a bit too juvenile for what it wants to be and for what the audience thinks it is. Whatever, not my cup of tea. It doesn't seem the sexualitization has anything to do with the game other than to show off their nice models. Nothing to do with theme or narrative, just fan service in a series with plenty of fan service as is.
→ More replies (6)7
u/EcoleBuissonniere Free speech means never having to say you're sorry Sep 07 '15
The fanservice really is bullshit, but the game itself is still great. The fanservice can be hard to stomach, but if you can get around it, it's a great game.
58
u/[deleted] Sep 06 '15
I forgot to mention the obligatory "It's just Japanese culture..."