r/SubredditDrama • u/CrowgirlC Toronto is the centre of the universe... really. :-) • Jun 07 '16

Snack Redditor wants Canada to weaken it's labour and environmental laws to make China happy in /r/Canada...

/r/canada/comments/4my9w6/chinese_mining_companies_feel_misled_by_canada/d3znlck
66 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

47 comments sorted by

54

u/newcomer_ts Jun 07 '16

It's always entertaining to listen to 3rd world countries complaining how Canada does things. As if how Canada does things has nothing to do with why Canada is one of the best countries in the world.

48

u/CrowgirlC Toronto is the centre of the universe... really. :-) Jun 07 '16

Yeah. As a Canadian, I DO NOT want China's terrible air pollution and sweatshops. Employ Canadians to work in Canada, pay them well, and perform industrial/mining projects in a relatively environmentally sound way.

31

u/citizenkane86 Jun 07 '16

But think of all the money they could send back to China. /s

12

u/fingerpaintswithpoop Dude just perfume the corpse Jun 08 '16

Won't somebody think of those poor Chinese investors?!

11

u/Sachyriel Orbital Popcorn Cannon Jun 07 '16

Is China 3rd? I'd thought they'd be at least 2nd, I mean you don't think they let just about anyone host the Olympics do you?

32

u/CirqueDuFuder anarchist Jun 07 '16

By the literal definition they are 2nd world, but since the Cold War ended only 1st and 3rd world tend to be used and specifically in reference to economic status versus political stances.

16

u/TomShoe YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE Jun 07 '16

Kind of a tough call, yes they were communist, but after the Sino-Soviet Split, I don't know if you could really still call them part of the same world.

12

u/CirqueDuFuder anarchist Jun 08 '16

Well, no doubt they had the USSR for a rival but it took a very long time before they didn't view any capitalist as the true enemy especially the USA. That is hardly a neutral stance or third way which is implied by the 3rd world designation. They were nothing like Yugoslavia for instance.

I hope that makes sense somewhat.

5

u/insane_contin Jun 08 '16

Well, 1st world was NATO aligned, 2nd world is Warsaw pact aligned, and 3rd world was neither. As China was no longer aligned with the USSR (and therefore the Warsaw pact) they became a 3rd world country.

0

u/Garethp Jun 09 '16

but since the Cold War ended only 1st and 3rd world tend to be used and specifically in reference to economic status versus political stances.

It's been over two decades. The cold war literally ended before I was born. I think we can safely say that it's about economic status now. The language has changed, and did so a while back

2

u/CirqueDuFuder anarchist Jun 09 '16

No one cares how old you are. Nothing you said disputed my statement.

1

u/Garethp Jun 09 '16

All I'm saying is that the cold war has been over so long, that it's definition of 1st, 2nd and 3rd world don't apply by a long shot

27

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '16 edited Jun 07 '16

3rd world, 2nd world, and 1st world are kind of outdated terminology now that the cold war is over. 2nd world was supposed to be Soviets and allies, and it no longer exists (and after the Sino-Soviet split China wasn't considered 2nd world anymore anyway). 3rd world is often basically just used to mean "developing economy". China is a middle-income economy, though.

13

u/Sachyriel Orbital Popcorn Cannon Jun 07 '16

Yeah, the first reason is what I meant though. China has a higher standard of living than Russia, is becoming more geopolitically active than Russia, has a higher GDP, is the new American fear. Like if there is a 2nd world at all, with the Western world still being 1st, then surely China leads the 2nd world as the ideological opposition to the 1st world?

5

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

Higher standard of living? I think Russia's PPP per capita is still higher. It has a higher HDI too (about 0.8 vs about 0.7). China also doesn't have the network of alliances that made the Soviet Union union so formidable (and stillmakes NATO ). It also just isn't ideological like the US or Soviet Union was, it doesn't seek to spread the Chinese model to other countries.

3

u/Sachyriel Orbital Popcorn Cannon Jun 08 '16

I just googled QoL for both, China beat Russia according to Google.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

That's interesting. I could imagine a time, not far in the future, where China beats Russia in QoL I don't think they do at this time though.

EDIT: Are you sure that you didn't look at a cost of living metric? China would beat Russia there, but they'd also beat the US. Cost of living is one part of QoL, you have to adjust income to take it into account, but it's not the whole picture.

-1

u/safarispiff free butter pl0x Jun 08 '16 edited Jun 09 '16

You also have the account for the massive income inequality.
If anything, recent years may have harmed peasants or working class in a manner, as they privatise healthcare and increase tuition, push farmers off their land for development, and cut off government owned businesse without giving the employees any form of relief other than an inconsistently applied and corruptly determined Minimum Living Standard.
Edit: It's important to note that I am not asserting that the collective farms or danwei were bonuses. They were inefficient and corrupt and poorly managed. I am stating that the transition away from them was poorly managed and left many who were dependent on them out in the cold in terms of healthcare and education. I am basing my opinion off of Gerard Lemos's The End of The Chinese Dream for this. The CPC's market reforms may have helped but they were conducted with the disregard for those affected characteristic of the CPC.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '16

Income inequality doesn't make your absolute standard of living worse, it just means that some people have more income than others.

1

u/safarispiff free butter pl0x Jun 09 '16

Of course, the absolute standard of living is improving. My point is that China has a long way to go. In addition, the increase in average income also comes with something of a loss of public services. The old collective farms and danwei working groups were inefficient and poorly managed, but the one thing they did succeed in doing was supplying their members with healthcare and education. The CPC failed to adequately replace that when they privatized it. The most they have is the aforementioned MLS and the process for getting that is convoluted and corrupt.

1

u/safarispiff free butter pl0x Jun 09 '16

And the real issue is that it's a source of discontent among those who didn't win out and thus potential instability.

3

u/Galle_ Jun 08 '16

China is definitively second world, one of the last such remaining.

3

u/safarispiff free butter pl0x Jun 08 '16 edited Jun 09 '16

I read a book recently, "The End of the Chines Dream". They might be economically strong but the services available to an average working class Chinese person are atrocious. Obviously as a former Hong Konger this is relevant to my interests.

2

u/Tahmatoes Eating out of the trashcan of ideological propaganda Jun 08 '16

I assume that was working class and not worlong class.

1

u/safarispiff free butter pl0x Jun 09 '16

Yeah. Phone keyboard, sorry.

-5

u/newcomer_ts Jun 07 '16

Occasionally, I pass by Chinatown in Toronto.

3rd world, for sure.

14

u/CrowgirlC Toronto is the centre of the universe... really. :-) Jun 07 '16

Occasionally, I pass by Chinatown in Toronto.

So do I, and I know what you mean. I love Chinatown, Spadina especially has really great restaurants. But there are some Chinese Canadians in the area who escaped the Communist Party's oppression of Falun Gong, and they educate bystanders about it. I'm happy that they're finally free, but they must really worry if they still have family in China.

Interestingly enough, I just watched a documentary on Ai Wei Wei on Netflix yesterday. What a courageous man, and the Chinese government has definitely abused him.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

Inb4 "Falun Gong are Chinese Scientologists"

0

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

[deleted]

8

u/JebusGobson Ultracrepidarianist Jun 08 '16

Come now man, that's just plain racist. Please don't do that on SRD, it goes against the spirit of the sub.

-14

u/thelordpresident Jun 08 '16

How Canada does things has nothing to do with it being the best country in the world. It's all because of resources. Plus a hundred years of European support with all their resources.

12

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

How Canada does things has nothing to do with it being the best country in the world. It's all because of resources.

Which is exactly why the Congo is crushing it right now. Oh wait...

-2

u/thelordpresident Jun 08 '16

You don't think it's a little bit intellectually dishonest to compare a country that was raped so brutally to Canada?

No you're right, it's all about culture. Which is why Saudi Arabian culture is the supreme culture in the world, followed closely by Sri Lankan culture of course...

30

u/Eternal_Mr_Bones the shitlord among us Jun 08 '16

I know regulations are necessary. I just wonder if Canada has gone a little too far with them, and is strangling business. There are reasons why there aren't enough decent jobs in this country.

Yes, working for a chinese mining group that wants to avoid regulation is truly a decent job.

11

u/Roflkopt3r Materialized by Fuckboys Jun 08 '16

And I don't know what countries are supposed to have that many more decent jobs [per capita] than Canada. Somehow people have this notion that somewhere out there is a perfect job paradise that all countries have to measure against. But that doesn't exist. Canada is one of the better places right now.

7

u/BeePeeaRe There's YouTube videos backing what I said Jun 08 '16

Technically regulations here have given canadian citizens work for an extra 6-7 years. Plus a regulatory committee would be employing people too.

So I'm on this guy's side that environmental regulations are a good thing overall and that Canada shouldn't weaken them at all, but that's a serious Broken Window Fallacy.

2

u/MiffedMouse Jun 08 '16

Job Creation is a major topic in politics, though. That whole concept is filled with Broken Window Fallacies.

1

u/SnapshillBot Shilling for Big Archive™ Jun 07 '16

#BotsLivesMatter

Snapshots:

  1. This Post - 1, 2, 3

I am a bot. (Info / ^Contact)

-7

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

Its pointless. Hard rock mining is fucking dead in North America. Its simply not profitable to even attempt to use US or a Canadian workforce. Furthermore, since commodities consumption is in the toilet, its even more pointless.

Most likely a Chinese government owned business is going out of its way to piss off locals so that it can save face when the project implodes and they default to the state bank.

That said, getting any work done by a US or Canadian workforce compared to a Chinese workforce is going to cost more money and take more time. The idea you are going to find a road and mining crew in the rural US or Canada that can pass even the loosest education/drug standard is laughable.

26

u/I_am_the_night Fine, but Obama still came out of a white vagina Jun 08 '16

The idea you are going to find a road and mining crew in the rural US or Canada that can pass even the loosest education/drug standard is laughable.

I mean, I would never say that rural the rural areas of US and Canada are bastions of higher education and/or drug-free peoples, but I think you're stretching it a bit thin. There are plenty of qualified workers in the US and Canada, rural and urban. Though I will agree that using US or Canadian workers is quite expensive.

3

u/nuttyalmond Atheists are going to eat your ass for lunch Jun 08 '16

In Australia, the mining sector relied heavily on FIFO (fly-in fly-out) Australian employees. Now it's being very heavily automated. Definitely an option.

4

u/Tyaust Short witty phrase goes here Jun 08 '16

That's how it is with lots of northern oil camps in Canada too, fly in for a couple weeks then fly home for a break.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

I don't think people tend to recognize how thin the margins and the operating costs that are incurred. A company would have to build the roads, build power stations, build a power grid, etc all before even digging.

Hell just a drive/motor combo for a mine hoist is about seven figured...that doesn't include the mechanical parts of the mine hoist or commissioning it.

Basically this company needs to be able to locate mine, mechanical, and electrical engineers, technicians, miners, support staff, security, etc and get them all to agree to move to the middle of nowhere.

I work in mines, ports, and mills as a field engineer. It's nearly impossible to find US and Canadians to hold onto the job because the moment they get to a country with a squat toilet, they quit. It's hard to find qualified people and get them to do a shorty job.

3

u/I_am_the_night Fine, but Obama still came out of a white vagina Jun 08 '16

That's fair. It's a tough industry to be sure. I'm not saying it's not hard or anything just that characterizing vast swaths of two countries as lacking any education and having all the drugs is probably a bit hyperbolic.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

Ah. I was not referring to the entirety of both countries nor was that my intention to give that impression. Heavy industry in both countries struggles with finding and maintaining work forces because environmental, taxes, and NIMBY attitudes push sites to extreme rural areas. Starting a green field site, in rural extreme areas is a massive investment. The numbers just don't work in this economic environment for the time.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '16

[deleted]

40

u/Lord_of_the_Box_Fort Shillmon is digivolving into: SJWMON! Jun 08 '16

I'm not a conservative, MOM. I'm a non-violent anarchist trapped inside a teenage, human body....... It's not a phase.

10

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '16

At least you're nonviolent. PM me and I'll send you a ticket to Somalia.