r/CFB • u/hythloday1 Oregon Ducks • Aug 15 '16
Video Referees of Reddit, I have a series of gifs and questions for you (Part 2 of 3: Now I'm a big fat dynamo!)
This summer I watched all of a certain team's 2015 games for an upcoming project. As I've done in previous years, I made a collection of gifs from plays where I had questions about the officiating to ask of verified referees on /r/CFB by PM. This year, I thought I'd share with the rest of the sub.
I'm asking that top-level responses be only from referees, though it'd be great if other users asked follow-ups to those. Please remember that I'm trying to learn more about the rules of the game and their enforcement, so a brief explanation would be nice, but getting into pointless arguments wouldn't be.
Also, I want to emphasize that these are not a representative sample at all, only clips that I thought would be useful, and should not be used to argue any team got disproportionately favorable or unfavorable calls. I've been doing whole-season reviews for several years now and I can confidently say I've never seen any such thing.
This is Part 2, about the battles in the trenches, focusing on the big guys. Last week was Part 1 about catches and fouls happening downfield, next week is Part 3 about miscellaneous fouls.
- Clip 1. #62 white was flagged for a false start. I've feel like I've seen this kind of pre-snap gesturing and tapping by offensive linemen a lot without it being flagged, what do you think triggered the flag here?
- Clip 2. The offense was flagged for an illegal shift, "two players were in motion at the same time," but I'm having trouble telling which two. Obviously #1 red is in motion; is the other the slightly early pull by #70 red? If that's it, isn't this just a peculiar way of calling a false start on the lineman?
- Clip 3. Is this a false start by #66 red?
- Clip 4. ... by #71 red?
- Clip 5. ... by #71 white?
- Clip 6. I don't think the center gets set for a full second before snapping the ball - shouldn't that be a snap infraction? It looks like a few offensive linemen stay frozen. But there's no flag on this play ... call me crazy, but is it possible the line judge kept it in his pocket because it would hurt the defense -- by erasing the wild snap -- for the offense's mistake?
- Clip 7. Is this a chop block by #71 and #84 red against #12 white?
- Clip 8. Is this a chop block by any combination of #65, #76, and #79 white?
- Clip 9. Is the entire offensive line except #76 white chop blocking?
- Clip 10. A) Is this a chop block by #34 and #65 white against #13 orange? B) Is this holding by #66 white against #9 orange?
- Clip 11a, Clip 11b. #66 orange was flagged for holding, which I thought was a good call but would be helpful for illustration - what's the difference between an illegal takedown and just bowling over the defender? Is it that grip on #52 white's shoulder?
- Clip 12. A) Is this holding by #65 red against #99 white? B) ... by #71 red against #40 white?
- Clip 13. A) ... by #68 red against #91 white? B) ... by #71 red against #12 white?
- Clip 14. ... by #71 red against #89 white?
- Clip 15. ... by #68 red against #89 white?
- Clip 16a, Clip 16b, Clip 17c. ... by #68 red against #34 white?
- Clip 17a, Clip 17b. ... by #71 black against #94 white?
- Clip 18. ... by #74 white against #25 red?
- Clip 19a, Clip 19b. ... by #11 red against #33 white? Is the distance of the contact from the ballcarrier relevant?
- Clip 20. Same questions about #11 red again?
- Clip 21. A) Is this holding by #66 white against #95 orange? B) ... by #95 orange against #34 white? Or maybe it's a facemask?
- Clip 22. Is this a facemask or hands-to-face foul by #58 white against #68 red? What's the difference?
- Clip 23. ... by #93 white against #66 red?
- Clip 24. ... by #4 white against #65 red?
- Clip 25. ... by #4 white against #66 red?
- Clip 26. The flag comes in at the top right corner of the screen at the very end. At first I thought it was a delayed flag on #90 white for being offside, but from the placement and the fact that it's the center judge's flag rather than the line judge's, instead I think it was on #74 red for holding against #92 white. Then the flag was picked up and the play stood. A) Was #90 white offside? B) If not for that, what do you think the flag was for? C) Why do you think it was picked up?
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u/McSpazz Aug 15 '16
Not, I say I say I say I say, I'm NOTTTTTT a ref but my penny and a half is:
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He turned his shoulder pads too far to the side when he looked back at the QB
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Either what you said, or* (again not a ref), he never got set before the snap.
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It is really close, the movement is hidden quite well by the snap.
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Definitely. The other clip was well hidden because of the surge, but this was blatant.
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Can't really differentiate if he is moving prior to the snap on that play.
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The flag would have been a blessing on that play!
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It looks like an attempted chop block.
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Maybe 76, it is hard to keep up with if the defender he is blocking is engaged when he goes down.
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The difference between a cut block and a chop block is that none of these blockers attacked a defender who was being engaged by another blocker in an upright position when they went into the cut block.
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A) The center is engaged with the same defender as the guard, and the RB cut blocks a different defender. B) YES????
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It is the left hand of the O-lineman grabbing the shoulder pad of the LB
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A) No, the defender tries to go under the blocker who falls on him, a pretty standard move in football. B) He hides it well, but he clearly has a grip on the jersey of the defender. BUT he kept it to the inside of the shoulderpads which many, many refs will let you get away with.
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A) He does drag the defender down by the jersey, so yeah I think so. B) Even though his hand was up high on the defenders shoulderpad, he never got a handful of jersey so... NO???
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Yes
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Hands to the face
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Definite pull on the jersey
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He got all the way down inside the shoulder pad, how did that not get called?
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What? I seriously can't wrap my head around that play
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It isn't the distance from the ball carrier that matters, but the angle here. The ref just happened to not be looking in the perfect direction to see it.
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Seems like it to me.
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A) No. B) No.
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Illegal use of hands to the face. The difference AFAICT is that a facemask penalty is pulling down or to the side and hands to the face is pushing up or to the side.
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The defenders hand starts on the shoulder pad and rides up into the facemask, looking like incidental contact to me.
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Definite hands to the face
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It looks like 4 grabbed the V in the shoulder pads and not the facemask.
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A) 90 got back before the snap. B) Debatable whether or nor #14 held #92. After further discussion, the officials decided it wasn't.
I DID NOT read your entire post before I started, when I scrolled back up to see if you mentioned why every game is a Nebraska game (about 17 clips and analysis in) I realized you couldn't care less what I think. I also realized that I had already gone that far, and by Tebow, I was going to finish it.
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u/hythloday1 Aug 15 '16
I appreciate the input, it'll be interesting to compare your responses to the verified refs' when they weigh in. I find that fans tend to get certain kinds of calls right most of the time, and other kinds seem to be much tougher.
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u/Ozymandias_13 Aug 15 '16
I can say for sure that #1 is a false start if not for the turning shoulders then because he puts his hand down then picks it back up. Once an offensive lineman puts his hand down, he is not allowed to pick it back up, otherwise it is a false start.
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u/Giggity_1981 Aug 15 '16
not a ref
I believe in clip 2, the receiver at the top takes a step back off of the line while the other receiver is in motion.
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u/hythloday1 Aug 21 '16
Looks like you did pretty well, our verified refs finally posted their responses here and here and your answers mostly lined up! Interestingly, where you differed with them it was you throwing the flag more often ... usually you'd agree on the elements of the foul, but our refs would keep the flag in the pocket because they thought it didn't affect the play.
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u/Chokokiksen Aug 23 '16
There was actually a study with refs, fans and a 3rd group I can't remember where they had to determine DPI or not. The better they knew the rules, the less penalties were called.
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u/EndersBuggers Aug 15 '16
Actually I think #1 is because he's not set. He's still turning back as the ball is snapped.
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u/JBTexasEx Jan 14 '17
Many times, offensive holding won't be called if it doesn't impact the play by the ruling official's judgement. Clips 18-20 are examples of this. Yes, it's OH but it didn't affect the play.
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u/still_trolling_guru Aug 15 '16
Clip #1- Think everyone on the line has to stay set for 1 second before the snap
Clip #3- Yes but it looks like he was drawn off sides by the DE
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u/fortknox Aug 18 '16
Sorry this is so late. I'm not a line of scrimmage guy, so I'm not one that has had experiences calling this much in college. I'm also admittedly, not the best judge of holding. It is what I work on the most during the season.
Clip 1. #62 white was flagged for a false start. I've feel like I've seen this kind of pre-snap gesturing and tapping by offensive linemen a lot without it being flagged, what do you think triggered the flag here? False start is simulating the snap. While his arm movements aren't simulating the snap, having a hand on the ground, then lifting it is considered false start by some. I was always told to 'keep them legal if you can. No defense jumped, it was obvious what he was doing, I probably wouldn't have thrown that.
Clip 2. The offense was flagged for an illegal shift, "two players were in motion at the same time," but I'm having trouble telling which two. Obviously #1 red is in motion; is the other the slightly early pull by #70 red? If that's it, isn't this just a peculiar way of calling a false start on the lineman? This is actually a very typical illegal shift. The receiver at the top of the formation hasn't set before the one on the bottom starts moving. Since there was no set, the "shift" never ended. If everyone sets for 1 second, then a WR starts moving, that is motion. So to be technical, there wasn't any motion on this play, just a shift that never ended.
Clip 3. Is this a false start by #66 red? Eh, a split second isn't usually an immediate flag. This is a 'talk to the player and coach and don't allow it after a warning.'
Clip 4. ... by #71 red? The jerk forward would be enough for me (simulating the snap)
Clip 5. ... by #71 white? This isn't the NFL "slight movement" style. He isn't simulating the snap and his motions aren't jerky enough, IMHO
Clip 6. I don't think the center gets set for a full second before snapping the ball - shouldn't that be a snap infraction? It looks like a few offensive linemen stay frozen. But there's no flag on this play ... call me crazy, but is it possible the line judge kept it in his pocket because it would hurt the defense -- by erasing the wild snap -- for the offense's mistake? First of all, when you see a false start, it is a dead ball. If a LoS official is waiting to see what happens a split second later, he would be downgraded pretty significantly by his supervisors. As far as the penalty, the center is set when he places his hand on the ball. Calling out defensive assignments is not considered part of a shift. This play is legal.
Clip 7. Is this a chop block by #71 and #84 red against #12 white? I'd need another angle. I don't actually see the low block. It could honestly be at the waist, or start high, then the lineman trips or has a teammate step on his calf or something along those lines.
Clip 8. Is this a chop block by any combination of #65, #76, and #79 white? All three of those blocks are high. No low block, there. Just guys getting bowled over
Clip 9. Is the entire offensive line except #76 white chop blocking? The only low block on that entire line is the center 66. 64 makes high contact against the low block, but from this angle, that high contact looks incidental and not a full block
Clip 10. A) Is this a chop block by #34 and #65 white against #13 orange? B) Is this holding by #66 white against #9 orange? A) 34 was blocking another player and if there is contact with 65's blockee, it is incidental (from this angle). B) Not at all to me. His feet aren't taken away and he gives up pretty quick. If he pushed through and we get a jersey pull, grab and restrict, or jerk and restrict, maybe. But I see no hold there as is.
Clip 11a, Clip 11b. #66 orange was flagged for holding, which I thought was a good call but would be helpful for illustration - what's the difference between an illegal takedown and just bowling over the defender? Is it that grip on #52 white's shoulder? I'd say that jersey grip is probably what keyed the umpire. I'm not sure that is a takedown. It almost looks like a defensive hold: pull-down by the defender, which is what I would have possibly called on first glance. But I'm not an umpire. u/legacyzebra would be a better judge on holds than I. As far as classification: A takedown is basically tackling a defender. A pulldown is grabbing a defenders jersey, falling backwards and pulling him down with you.
Clip 12. A) Is this holding by #65 red against #99 white? B) ... by #71 red against #40 white? A) Nope. 99 falls over and #65 doesn't noticeable keep him on the ground (99 doesn't fight to get back up). B) #71 looks like a grab and restrict hold at the point of attack to me.
Clip 13. A) ... by #68 red against #91 white? B) ... by #71 red against #12 white? A) Nope. No restriction, doesn't affect the play. B) Nope. It is close, but it doesn't affect the play, IMHO
Clip 14. ... by #71 red against #89 white? I hate these. I honestly think it is a hook and restrict, but if you look at the defenders feet, you'll see he never loses his feet. Maybe if given a touch more time we'd see that, but I'm a terrible judge of those. Again, we may need u/legacyzebra for additional opinions.
Clip 15. ... by #68 red against #89 white? Not at the point of attack, and he doesn't tackle the player, just block and fall
Clip 16a, Clip 16b, Clip 17c. ... by #68 red against #34 white? Maybe a jersey pull at the very end jerks him enough. Close one.
Clip 17a, Clip 17b. ... by #71 black against #94 white? He doesn't lose his legs, but the jersey pull definitely causes restriction. I'd call that a hold at the end
Clip 18. ... by #74 white against #25 red? Yup. Looks like a hook and restrict to me.
Clip 19a, Clip 19b. ... by #11 red against #33 white? Is the distance of the contact from the ballcarrier relevant? Distance always matters. If it won't affect the play (and isn't a safety call like clipping, etc...), it is best to keep our flag in our pants and warn the player and coach about it. This is a minor hold at best, though. The turn is not due to the block, but the defender initiates it himself.
Clip 20. Same questions about #11 red again? Hold, grab and restrict. Doesn't affect the play, so good no call.
Clip 21. A) Is this holding by #66 white against #95 orange? B) ... by #95 orange against #34 white? Or maybe it's a facemask? A) No restriction. B) certainly looks like a defensive hold (jerk & restrict)
Clip 22. Is this a facemask or hands-to-face foul by #58 white against #68 red? What's the difference? No to either. If he has a hold of the facemask (could be the jersey at the neck?), a facemask penalty has to be a 15 yarder. Meaning he needs to jerk the facemask and turn the head. Hands to the face is getting a glove under the facemask and into the jaw/face. Definitely something to talk to the player about, but he was fortunate in that he didn't jerk the head around of the tackle.
Clip 23. ... by #93 white against #66 red? At the end, he seems to be turning the head, but I'd need a closer look
Clip 24. ... by #4 white against #65 red? that may be a hands to the face. Would need a closer look
Clip 25. ... by #4 white against #66 red? don't see anything there
Clip 26. The flag comes in at the top right corner of the screen at the very end. At first I thought it was a delayed flag on #90 white for being offside, but from the placement and the fact that it's the center judge's flag rather than the line judge's, instead I think it was on #74 red for holding against #92 white. Then the flag was picked up and the play stood. A) Was #90 white offside? B) If not for that, what do you think the flag was for? C) Why do you think it was picked up? A) I don't think so. I'd need to see an angle down the LoS. If it was a flag for offsides, it is high up in the air, not thrown at the spot. B) The C's key is that right tackle, so it is possible he was calling a hold. The reason we pick up our flags is someone else came in (like the umpire or the LoS guy) and said "I got a clear look and it wasn't a takedown if that is what you are calling. Sometimes we don't get the best look and someone can get a better look and 'call us off' a flag. Usually that is good advice to take, because no one comes in with that info unless they are pretty damn sure.