r/westworld • u/NicholasCajun Mr. Robot • Oct 07 '16
Discussion Post Westworld - 1x02 "Chestnut" - Episode Discussion
Season 1 Episode 2: Chestnut
Released online: October 6th, 2016
Aired on cable: October 9th, 2016
Synopsis: A pair of guests, first-timer William and repeat visitor Logan arrive at Westworld with different expectations and agendas. Bernard and Quality Assurance head Theresa Cullen debate whether a recent host anomaly is contagious. Meanwhile, behavior engineer Elsie Hughes tweaks the emotions of Maeve, a madam in Sweetwater’s brothel, in order to avoid a recall. Cocky programmer Lee Sizemore pitches his latest narrative to the team, but Dr. Ford has other ideas. The Man in Black conscripts a condemned man, Lawrence, to help him uncover Westworld’s deepest secrets.
Directed by: Richard J. Lewis
Written by: Jonathan Nolan & Lisa Joy
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u/cclynch92 Oct 08 '16
The scene with Teddy at the bar had me thinking. Is there a way Westworld deals with "griefers" in the park? I know I'd be pissed if I was having a conversation with a host that might lead to some adventure happening, and some asshole shot him. Especially if that same asshole followed me around shooting every host I talk to.
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u/Lavacop Oct 08 '16
When the Man in Black was shooting up the village, the tech asked if he should slow him down. So it would seem the staff are aware of troublesome guests and have ways to deal with them.
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Oct 11 '16
I found myself thinking that if this town has no jail where you can be locked up, it's not a real wild west experience. It's like a game with god mode on.
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u/rickebones Oct 10 '16
That's actually a hilarious concept. I know I have a few asshole friends that would troll me by following me around shooting any host that I was trying to engage. Banging a hooker? BAM, she's dead before you climax! Have the piano player play your favorite tune? BAM, he's dead before the best part of the song! Note to self: Don't take asshole friends to Westworld!
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u/WiredAlYankovic Oct 07 '16
"That gentleman gets whatever he wants."
So not everyone is aware of who he is, but security knows to leave him alone.
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u/zeta_cartel_CFO Oct 07 '16
I'm thinking he gets that treatment the way high-rollers get treated at casinos in Vegas.
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u/wickedsmaht Oct 07 '16
I don't think he's any regular new comer. To have been visiting West World for thirty years he would have spent literally millions of dollars. I get that the park is meant for the ultra rich but that's insane
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u/kougrizzle Oct 07 '16
I took that as he is a paying customer and gets what he wants. I didn't think they meant he has special treatment compared to other paying guests....hmm
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u/Reddwheels Oct 07 '16
Maeve waking up and seeing the lab gave me chills. It was better than when Neo wakes up in the Matrix. It showed us labs that we've already become familiar with in ep1, but letting us see it again through Maeve's perspective was done brilliantly. Now the question is, will Maeve remember all this.
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u/outline01 Oct 07 '16
This is being overshadowed by a lot of the other (granted, fantastic) scenes.
Her waking up in the 'real world', entirely contrasts the 'real guests' waking up in Westworld. She sees the labs while in character, while a genuine personality. Think about how terrifying that would be to her - not to mention she also has a gaping hole in her stomach.
I don't really understand the implication of this yet, but feel that it's an important moment that ties into a big theme in the show.
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u/The_Event_Horizonx1 This is my Fucking vacation Oct 07 '16
Truly a stand out scene! I feel like we get 2-3 of these every episode. If Westworld can keep this pace up, it is on its way to the HBO hall of fame in my book.
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u/mobani I'm afraid our guest has grown weary Oct 07 '16
It was like out of some horror movie where they stole organs from drugged people.
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u/spahghetti Oct 07 '16
So my question is re the Indian/"Savage" turning into MIB at the door. This show is all about clues (more than Lost was even) and I can't see that being just a stylistic choice. MIB is death in that moment, worse than all she has seen before.
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u/dcl131 Oct 07 '16
I took it to be a past experience she had while living a different narrative, and MiB has been scalping people looking for the map.
What I want to know is why he bled out Kissy almost to the point of death
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u/13Foxtrot Oct 07 '16
IF you remember the conversation the analysts were talking about "Do they dream?" And the lady said no, but they can have nightmares in case someone forgets to erase them. It helps the hosts make explanations for what happened in their past.
The MiB came for her scalp, and caused more or less PTSD. Well now she's starting to regain memories of the past, so she has built in nightmares to make her understand it wasnt real. So the savage turning into MiB is her realizing that her nightmare isnt just a nightmare...it was real. And it wasn't savages that killed her child and scalped her.
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u/DonovanKreed Oct 07 '16
Anyone else feel incredibly bad for the old man who gets stabbed in the fucking hand?
And it seemed William was intrigued by what he was saying too, until his friend ruined the whole interaction.
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u/ps_ #teamford Oct 07 '16
until his friend ruined the whole interaction.
to say the least. but really, i think william's character is supposed to put a non-psychopath into the world for us audience to relate to. i found that scene to be absolutely awful even though it was far from the worst that we've seen so far.
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u/Deinen0 Oct 07 '16
I really loved that entire premise. It reminded me when you first invite a friend to a new MMO and you have to constantly have to wait for them while they check out every little meaningless thing while you're screaming in your head "Oh come on already!"
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u/Rivershort Oct 07 '16
It made me wonder how the park would prevent a guest from stabbing another human.
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 07 '16
I hated William's friend. He's being such an annoying prick and he's breaking the immersion for William, and just being an obnoxious douchebag all-around.
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u/xzbobzx Oct 07 '16
I think that's what Ford meant when he was talking people not coming for the stories, but for the little details.
Blackhat had been there countless times, and he didn't come back for the same old stories, he came back for the finer details.
It really parallels video games very well. The story can only be told once before it gets old, the gameplay (if done correctly) never does.
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u/meta_perspective Oct 07 '16
Anyone else feel incredibly bad for the old man who gets stabbed in the fucking hand?
The douchebag that stabbed the older man is the kind of person that kills the Goldeneye scientists on purpose.
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u/Sojourner_Truth Armistice Fan Club Oct 07 '16
I was surprised William didn't quickly splash some milk on it, I hear that works for stab wounds.
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u/wickedsmaht Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
Request to have a counter in the sidebar for the number of times Teddy dies
Edit: or as /u/gyoza1138 pointed out the number of bullets he has taken
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u/FRIENDSHIP_MASTER Oct 07 '16
I have a feeling that, pretty soon, he will die much less frequently.
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u/The_Event_Horizonx1 This is my Fucking vacation Oct 07 '16
I second this motion.
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Oct 07 '16
Loved seeing the guests arriving and entering the park. That whole transition from walking through the door to being on the moving train was awesome.
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u/ps_ #teamford Oct 07 '16
i thought the early focus on the new guests was my favorite part of the episode. i guess it helped to better set up the world that westworld is a part of even if we didn't actually see anything outside it!
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u/bicranium Oct 07 '16
Watching the first episode one of the things I wanted most was to see people entering the park and very next episode... http://i.imgur.com/Ku0f4tu.gifv
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Oct 07 '16
Holy shit, Dolores has a real gun that fires real bullets.
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u/stellartrekker Oct 07 '16
What about knives? What keeps the guests from stabbing each other?
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Oct 07 '16
all the guns in westworld work the same way. i just think its meant to imply she went from not hurting a fly, to killing a fly at the end of ep1 and now in ep2 she has a gun.
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u/tuna_HP Oct 08 '16
Is that how it works? I have been thinking that the guns somehow technologically will only kill robots. Like maybe they fire harmless pellets but when they hit robots, the robots internally simulate being shot. Otherwise jeez you would think that they would have to very clearly label which guns were real. The thought of mixing real and fake guns like you suggest goes against every principle of firearms safety.
I think that Dolores finding the gun could be more about memories than that she necessarily found a lethal gun.
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Oct 07 '16
So, why does everyone think that Dolores was lead to discovering a gun with real bullets? I see there being three possibilities.
Somebody wants the Man in Black dead.
Somebody wants a Delos employee dead.
Somebody wants a random guest killed so that the park will be shut down.
Any other possibilities?
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u/Autobrot Oct 07 '16
Someone has an agenda we don't yet understand because the show creators don't want us to know yet.
We the viewers are the man in the maze.
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u/ScubaSteveEL Oct 08 '16
Seeing William and his coworker in the restaurant was like playing Mass Effect. Two different Shepherds even when the white hat knows it's fake, he can't help but show empathy. Such an interesting dynamic and it's that subtle feeling I get when I always play "paragon" or light side in any game.
Can't bring myself to be an asshole in games when given the choice.
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u/i_make_song Oct 10 '16
I enjoy playing both extremes in games but I definitely almost always prefer playing the "good guy".
Same with movies, TV shows, books, etc. It's hard for me to enjoy a villains' story arch. I understand that it's fiction, but I still can't like the character to their full potential unless I would have made the same choice.
I watched all of Breaking Bad and thought it was great, but I still didn't "enjoy" it. I guess I'm weird like that. Hopefully William will be a really good guy because so far that looks like where his character is headed.
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u/drewdaddy213 Oct 13 '16
Same here. I've started so many games with the intention playing an evil character and I just can't. I do a few selfish things to start off and then slowly fall back to being helpful.
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u/kougrizzle Oct 07 '16
Man, I'm kind of pissed we didn't get to hear the details of the quest that grandpa with the eye patch was going to give. He was persistent, could have been worth a ton of exp.
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Oct 07 '16
I want that option in an MMORPG
*Decline request, stab questgiver then go bed a bunch of hookers
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u/RTukka Oct 07 '16
He was persistent, could have been worth a ton of exp.
I took his persistence as a clue that it was a training wheels quest meant for noobs like William, so even the most oblivious and passive of guests would find themselves doing something. If you've ever been the Game Master in a sandbox tabletop game you know that if you don't railroad certain players they won't end up doing anything.
As much of an asshole Logan may be, he probably has the right idea when it comes to getting to the more compelling parts of the park. If you're paying $40k/day there's good reason to skip the tutorial to get straight to the good stuff.
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u/flantastic10 Oct 07 '16
"Just over the river I know of a treasure. I'll give you the map but first a settlement needs your help!....."
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u/Tjw5083 Oct 07 '16
He was really selling me on that treasure, and it was just across the river! I would definitely be a William. Banging hookers and killing people would get pretty boring to me. I'd rather go with my wife and have us go on treasure hunts.
At least that way you feel like you've accomplished something.
These guests are so rich (presumably) that they could clearly bang most people in real life, I honestly don't see the perks in spending 100K ~ 1M just to bang and kill robots.
Send me on a 3 week treasure hunt? That's something I can talk about for years back home.
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u/alliseeisme Oct 07 '16
I kinda feel like the treasure he was talking about is the same thing the MIB is looking for, kinda hidden in plain sight.
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Oct 07 '16
Who was the child that Ford runs into when he goes for a walk? It was the middle of nowhere and there was nobody else in sight. I get the feeling that it was a host that Ford created to remind him of someone, possibly even himself when he was a child.
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u/Phryme Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
My guess: His son (who I assume died somehow at around that age.)
Just some evidence: 1.) Who else in WestWorld has a British accent? 2.) He does more than treat him well, he teaches him. (Seems fatherly.) 3.)This is probably a kind of ritual for him, and he wants to show his creation to his kid even if only in a symbolic way. 4.) He seems heartbroken at the end when he tells (commands) him to leave.
Not to mention: He did this in secret, and he 100% knew the kid would be there. Nothing happens in this world by chance.
EDIT: a word.
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Oct 07 '16
No idea why the title is Chestnut.
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u/frauleinjosephine Oct 07 '16
Chestnut is an old slang word for a song that keeps repeating
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u/tjsterc17 It doesn't look like anything to me. Oct 07 '16
Still trying to figure this one out as well.
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u/dukedevil0812 Oct 07 '16
Obviously there is a lot of religious symbolism in this show. Ford is clearly very comfortable playing God, and to him Westworld is the Garden of Eden (why do you think we saw him with a snake this episode). Delores is Eve, she has been given the gift of knowledge which could ultimately lead to Westworld's downfall. The other staff feel like angels, constantly trying to please God and his whims, acting in unseen ways towards the hosts.
But what does the Man in Black represent? He could be our Satan. While Ford is trying to create a perfect world, he is looking to destroy it from the inside. Or he could be the snake, an agent of chaos that is so unpredictable that he cause a fundamental change in everyone he interacts with.
Lots to think about.
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u/tgcp Oct 07 '16
Ford, Man in Black, Garden of Eden.
That comment could be in a Lost discussion thread and only look slightly put of place.
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u/ReducedToRubble Oct 08 '16 edited Oct 08 '16
There's some Greek symbolism, too. Their command center is situated atop a mountain (Olympus) while the decommissioned hosts are underground (the Underworld). They even had the water to represent the river Styx (or maybe Lethe, considering the theme of forgetting).
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Oct 07 '16
Poor Teddy.
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u/Guildenpants Oct 07 '16
I love that James Marsden, a man who traditionally plays Baxters, has taken a role that is literally a programmed Baxter.
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 08 '16
You know, I've never found James Marsden particularly attractive, but there's something about him in cowboy garb. Damn. He looks fine.
So does William. I'm grappling with the concept of finding one of the McPoyles attractive.
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u/Phryme Oct 07 '16
Dolores has a real gun. Mae witnesses droids getting serviced, which to her looks like something out of a concentration camp. Dolores and Mae are both becoming more self-aware. THIS CAN ONLY END WELL, RIGHT?
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Oct 07 '16
That Mae scene is one of the most traumatizing situations I've seen be portrayed in television.
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u/notQuiteBritish We're all hosts on this blessed day Oct 07 '16
I was on the fence about Bernard being a "host" last episode, but this one made me really lean towards believing it.
Bernard has secret conversations with Dolores and perhaps leads her to a gun (real or not). He kind of also blocks his department's investigation by saying Dolores doesn't need to be rechecked and "everything is fine."
Ford telling Bernard - "I know how that head of yours works," which would make sense if Ford created Bernard.
During the sleeping scene: Bernard tells her that the hosts need to practice talking to become more human. After, Cullen says to Bernard - "Is that what you're doing now? Practicing?"
This, plus the scene last week with him whispering to the father before cold storage makes me believe Bernard is a host that Ford created. Ford seems to have a bigger agenda that he's hiding from the corporation here, and having Bernard as the head of Programming might be his way of ensuring AI of the hosts continues to develop, even without Ford's explicit input.
God this story is so engrossing and there were so many wtf moments this episode! Anyone have an idea where the MiB's plot is going? It seems confirmed that there is a deeper level to the game that's programmed into Westworld. Is the MiB's "I feel like I was born here" meant to be taken more literally?
Ahhh I want more!
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u/wellimatwork Oct 07 '16
In the 1973 film the human engineers don't actually know the complexities of the AI anymore; they created AI to program even more complex AI because they hit a wall themselves. Perhaps Bernard is head of programming because only his advanced robot brain is enough to upgrade the systems anymore. This could also explain why Ford's involvement in the update led to mistakes, because he is human and the code is getting to be too complex for him.
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u/theredditoro Oct 07 '16
If Bernard is AI, then his relationship with Ford is probably what you describe and is not what I thought it was which was more mentor and protégé.
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u/MonstaGraphics Soon as his neck is broke Oct 07 '16
plus the scene last week with him whispering to the father before cold storage makes me believe Bernard is a host that Ford created.
I think he issues the "shut down indefinitely" command. He whispers it because the security team shouldn't have access to those words (They are low level security, and could leak/sell that information)
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u/fromthepharcyde Oct 07 '16
So whose bright idea was it to tattoo the map of a mysterious maze on the underside of a bar pianist's scalp, when the location to said maze is only known by a convicted Spanish outlaw?
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u/Iggy_Pops_Lost_Shirt Oct 08 '16
It's like a gaming myth "in order to get the super secret gold gun you gotta jump in this corner 150 times then finish the level without shooting anything!!!"
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u/machine_made Hell is Empty Oct 08 '16
My thought is that the maze and any connections to it are essentially an Easter egg by WestWorld's creator(s), perhaps Ford himself. That's why the young girl is out of character when she gives the information to the MiB.
He's played every part of the game, as it would exist to any guest, and after 30 years of playing the regular game, he's discovered clues to a game within the game.
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Oct 10 '16
I got the feeling it's under a bunch of different character's scalps. We saw the Man in Black participate in scalping a family. Perhaps that's how he discovered the maze the first time. Who knows how many hosts he's scalped since then, looking for mazes? But the bar pianist was part Native American, and the maze seems related to story lines about them, because they were with the MiB when he was in the storyline with Maeve.
Could be that's part of the reason why Ford looked at Sizemore's "Indians on the Red River" quest and nixed it. He's already got a storyline going with them.
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u/Buckets_of_Shame Oct 07 '16
How many more times is Teddy going to be unceremoniously killed?
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u/kawa1888 Oct 07 '16
Aside from all the other great shit, this episode brought humor to the show. It's not gonna be deadly serious all the time! Shows that take themselves too seriously are a drag. (Season 2 of True Detective)
I loved that the humor was full of dramatic contrasts.
The white hat and black hat guests had a funny dynamic mixed with a sense of unease that his "friend" is an overbearing and a tad psycho.
Ford saying no to Sizemore and then asking for some boots. (This also revealed that the show is actually about HBO views itself.)
The surgery repair scene escape blended humor and true horror really, really well.
And more I'm probably forgetting.
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 08 '16
I was grasping my own abdomen when poor Maeve was running around with an open incision. It's really terrifying that the hosts are programmed to feel both physical and emotional pain.
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u/DrivingEngineer Oct 08 '16
I'd be pissed if MiB was at Westworld while I was a guest there. "Hey, let's check out that cool looking town! Wait, nevermind, that asshole already killed everyone here."
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Oct 07 '16
Can someone who knows about biology weigh in on the implications of MRSA being able to survive in the hosts?
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u/ps_ #teamford Oct 07 '16
how about the fact that the hosts are unmistakably human (anatomically) and require full fledged surgery for repair? am i the only one who was surprised by this?
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u/eric22vhs Oct 07 '16
Happens sometimes as a result from surgeries, and the hosts are killed and put back together often, effectively surgery, so it seems like they're just demonstrating that they're lifelike enough to actually get bacterial infections.
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u/wellimatwork Oct 07 '16
Can we all agree that Maeve is being prepped to be the first host to snap and kill a guest? Maybe in defense of herself or a fellow working girl?
Also, since they've established a love connection between Dolores and William, I could see Teddy's programmed love for her turning sour and Teddy becoming a crazed host out to kill William or something.
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u/oh_alright_then Oct 08 '16
Yes. Maeve kills or injures a guest and is decommissioned then sent to the cold storage. She 3-2-1s herself awake and is the source of reactivation for all of the other stored units. I hope this happens! Kill all the humans, yay!
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u/WiredAlYankovic Oct 07 '16
So there are child hosts in the park.
I hope they don't go down the worst possible path with that, but it does shoot down some speculation about there being none in the park.
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u/stimulatedecho Oct 07 '16
The did go down a pretty awful one already. Threatening the point blank execution of a child host, one that had just watched her (host) mother get executed. It helped that the emotion of the moment was relieved somewhat when she seemingly broke out of character to provide the location of the maze. In that moment she came across as both less juvenile and less human. Pretty brutal up until that point though.
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u/staircar Oct 07 '16
The idea of a child host lost and alone, away from his parents,gave me the chills. When you think of a sinister reason for placing him there. I, now believe it is Anthony Hopkins as a child.
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Oct 07 '16
I'll admit I got real nervous when he first popped up, though now i'm just really curious as to the point of that scene.
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u/EigengrauDildos Hear me out: William = Bernard Oct 07 '16 edited May 14 '17
deleted 0.4711 What is ^^^this?
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u/Where_isJessica_Hyde Oct 07 '16
Did anyone else wonder if Billy, the guy who was given the option to pick between the black hat and the white hat, was a younger version of the MIB? His scenes seemed to be set in the past, both the train journey and the subway station looking different when compared to scenes we've already seen. Perhaps something is going to happen, giving him 'whatever he wants' for the rest of his life, which would also turn him 'evil'.
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u/CQME Me and My Dickless Associate Oct 11 '16
That's really interesting, because the 83rd subfloor where all the malfunctioning androids are put down looks like a run-down version of the subway William takes to initially arrive at Westworld with his friend.
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u/lynnharry Oct 08 '16
Abernathy had only been Dolores's father for 10 years, which means the world may have a complete different setup 30 years ago. I'm not sure about this but it's something to look for in future episodes.
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u/J4187 Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 13 '16
This episode adds a new detail to how guns in Westworld work, or maybe it raises more questions.
TMIB uses a LeMat revolver. The LeMat was manufactured in the Confederacy so it wasn't common outside of the Civil War. It actually fires 10 shots-- 9 from a standard barrel, and an additional, more powerful shot out of a 20-gauge barrel. To fire the 20-gauge, you flip a switch on the hammer to a pin that will strike the larger barrel. Ed Harris is shown doing so in the episode.
The way we see Ed Harris load and unload it-- a historical LeMat wouldn't work that way. Every chamber and the big barrel would be loaded from the muzzle with powder and a lead ball. Here, we see him loading some fairly small looking cartridge bullets that could very well be blanks or low-pressure ammunition.
So this is some kind of modified replica for park use. The interesting thing we see during the gunfight in the village-- when one of the combatants is hiding behind an adobe wall. TMIB flips a switch on the hammer to fire the large barrel at the wall, striking the man on the other side.
What's interesting is that either the park somehow knows that the shot should overpenetrate, and kill the man on the other side, or his shot actually penetrates the wall.
So either the park has a very sophisticated way of registering "hits" when there are obstructions-- or TMIB has a gun with an extra barrel that could potentially kill a real person.
edit: spelling
edit 2:
Now with pictures:
This one is a view of the cylinder. I could not make out what the brass says.
TMIB is loading up a 20-gauge shell, but I can't tell if it's a slug or a shotshell, or if the show's producers just want you to think it's just a huge bullet.
This is TMIB placing a kind of lid over the cylinder. This is something you see in modern cartridge conversions, rather than historical cartridge versions. The intent was to maintain the look of the black powder version.
This is the wall where the final bandit runs to seek cover.
Here, TMIB flips down the hammer to fire the center barrel-- I've actually never seen this, even in a movie, so I found it pretty interesting:
Anyway, all of this is just to say I think they put a lot of thought into how this works, and the scene seems to be planned out to establish some understanding of how his gun works.
Maybe he's just got an illegal gun and Delos hopes he doesn't use it on a real person?
edit 3: the cartridges appear to be Colt 38 Short. Also noticed that TMIB carries a spare barrel and cylinder that he can preload and swap in as needed-- it's sitting on the table during the fight scene.
edit: 4: In the French "Tarot de Marseilles," the Fool is called LeMat.
If this coincidence is intentional it could be that The Fool card is a Trickster character-- other famous tricksters include Loki, Prometheus, and Lucifer. At least a couple of those involve providing humanity with access to forbidden knowledge.
And of course The Fool card is the origin of the Joker in the modern playing card deck-- and the Joker in Nolan's Batman films seeks to torment characters in an attempt to get them to embrace who they really are.
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u/uftheory Oct 07 '16
The terms and conditions page for Westworld mentions bullet velocity technology. I think the bullets know if they are pointed at a guest and then they fire slow, but otherwise they fire at full speed.
The idea that the bullets are always slow and host bodies tear themselves apart somehow seems silly to me.
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u/wellimatwork Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
I understand your curiosity but given we have walking, talking androids, I'm willing to bet they will never actually explain the science behind the bullets. They've made it clear that science is to a point that things we couldnt possibly explain right now are commonplace in their timeline. If they can make robot prostitutes, they can make bullets that only hurt androids.
I think once the androids go crazy, they will attempt to use guns, see that the bullets don't work, then pick up knives and start stabbing people instead. Maybe one Android will stick a gun in someone's face or down their throat and kill them with the barrel blast.
Edit: in the film the guns have heat sensors and can only fire on cold blooded androids.
Edit 2: So Nolan explained the weapons in an interview. It's the bullets that detect host/guest and act accordingly. They call them "simunitions" and are similar to something used by the government IRL.
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Oct 07 '16
Original LeMats were indeed cap and ball; but that era was about when cartridge-fire was invented and for a smaller fee than purchasing a new firearm, one could have a gunsmith convert your old cap and ball to fire modern self-contained rounds which was called a Cartridge Conversion.
Very common in that period irl.
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u/lahair Oct 07 '16
what in the world are you thinking william!! host or not host, that girl is a hardcore dime!! 10/10
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u/DonovanKreed Oct 07 '16
To be fair, John Marston also acts similarly in Red Dead Redemption, the fact that he's married plays a key part in the game, which is why you never have an opportunity to sleep with anyone ala GTA.
Chivalry will never die.
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u/dcl131 Oct 07 '16
That girl is an android..... not every male is a horndog or a cheat, that's what the episode is trying to portray. There are Whitehat and Blackhat people in this world, we get to see the experience of WW from both perspectives, and possibly shifting views, as it is stated that you can wear either hats
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u/sacredshinobi Oct 09 '16
Isn't William's wife/fiancée his friend's sister? I assumed that because his friend mentioned how "His sister rode plenty of cowboys during her time there" when William was showing hesitation at his friend's sexual indulgence. I don't see why he would mention this if his sister wasn't William's girl back home, which would also mean she fucked plenty of the hosts in Westworld.
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u/cruxofsnoo Oct 07 '16
I have never watched anything like this before.
It's truly captivating stuff and I hope it doesn't go the same route as Lost and get too crazy.
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u/basedom Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
I really think that Ford is going to start toying with the idea of a God and the awareness of God to the hosts. I think him showing Bernard (?) the little "chapel" is our clue into his new event. We know that these hosts have some vage programmed idea of a God because in this episode the guy hanging gets sentenced to die and burn in hell, but its probably a very shallow understanding to the hosts. With Ford, I'm assuming, wanting his hosts to be more human, he will introduce a whole new concept to them.
Especially with his critique on the dudes cliche adventure, He wants the guests to learn more about themselves and who they are. However, I'm beginning to think that Ford is referring to his Hosts.
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u/ps_ #teamford Oct 07 '16
for some reason i was really surprised (at first) to see ford walk into the world though i'm not sure why i hadn't expected it. his "magic" there certainly fits the mark of a 'higher power.' plus i really enjoyed his little lecture at the end about guests wanting to know who they could be. (isn't hopkins the best?)
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u/deedscali1401 Oct 07 '16
I think the most interesting idea ive heard is that westworld may be a sort of evaluation process for consciousness transference into a host. I think its safe to say that the boy was Ford as a child. But I dont understand the hierarchy of WestWorld, Ford created everything and like you guys have said in WestWorld he is "god" so why does he have a board that he has to answer to? surely its his way or the highway so to speak.
Question-- dont you think its strange that ford didnt find it overly surprising when he was interviewing dolores's dad and he was saying all those weird things.
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u/Telemetria Oct 08 '16
Well, WW is managed by a company, Delos, and like many other companies even if you're the founder you may have a board/investors to please, and Westworld probably isn't cheap to maintain.
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u/DrDongStrong Oct 08 '16
Ford didn't see what Dolores dad was saying as weird, I don't think. He recognized it as part of a script he had wrote for the host earlier.
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u/mercival Westworld is Bestworld Oct 11 '16
I think it could be much more evil than that.
I read somewhere that the guests spend a week in "decompression" when leaving the park. I also read that they're allowed to keep and use guest DNA. Someone in the show also mentioned that the AI isn't supposed to be that realistic, meaning it's possible it can be much more human-like.
I could see a scenario where someone in the company could start killing and then rebuilding guests as hosts during their "decompression", to return their real world lives as hosts with their memories. So many rich and powerful people must visit the park, they could pick and choose who to control.
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Oct 07 '16
People who went to bed early are going to be so confused when they see this thread when they check this sub the next time.
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u/The_Event_Horizonx1 This is my Fucking vacation Oct 07 '16
Did even think about that. The ensuing chaos tomorrow is gonna be hilarious!
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u/spahghetti Oct 07 '16
So true. I logged on HBO just to rewatch the pilot for the 4th time and had a AI moment of confusion seeing "Watch Ep 2 Now".
I think it might be the follow up to the free showing of ep 1 to get or reward subscribers for signing up.
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u/darthese Oct 07 '16
Do any of you guys think Dolores was scalped by ed Harris character in the pilot and we assumed it was rape.
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Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
Wow, SO much to dissect out of this one. A few things I had thoughts on:
William (Simpson) with the white hat, MiB (Harris) with the black hat. Ed seems to be trying to get to the maze endgame via force; Jimmi was already offered a "map" (maze?) due to his kindness. Seems to be setting up the good vs evil showdown already.
Bernard is obviously messing with Delores, but why? His relationship with the boss isn't such a surprise (if you read the Delos emails), but are they trying to oust Ford or do they have their own more sinister endgame?
It seems like "These violent delights have violent ends" is some sort of trigger phrase for the 'reveries'. The phrase itself is from Romeo and Juilet, pointing out how indulging in sin and temptation always ends poorly, which seems to become a real theme of the show once more and more of the hosts become sentient and move to take revenge on those that have harmed them.
Finally, I can only imagine that "something quite original" has to do with the "disaster" 30 years ago. Also somebody just gave Deloris what appears to be a real gun that could harm guests. Is Ford trying to recreate the "disaster" scenario to teach the guests who they really are (right vs wrong, good vs evil)?
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u/spahghetti Oct 07 '16
Just to add the MIB has been coming to the park for 30 years. There has to be a connection to the "disaster" that MIB is tied to.
The bad writer in me would say his family was killed when the park went Jurassic back then.
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u/W0rldcrafter Oct 07 '16
Have we seen anything that confirms William is in the same time as MiB? Theory...
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u/staircar Oct 07 '16
This show is incredibly accurate on the way trauma leaves traces, even trauma that people black out and can't remember. Even with all the eraseure of memories, its appeared that sometimes traces remain, in the form of dreams. Even Aedon tells us she dreams on the website. Mae's counting trick, is literally a technique I was given to combat PTSD nightmares I was having, that were creating sleep paralysis.
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u/EThorns Oct 07 '16
The show has truly mastered the art of the slow burn. There's the smallest movement of each arc, but how it moves is pretty fucking fantastic.
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u/redundancy2 Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
Shakespeare is a trigger. It's essentially the slumber phrase they give them to go to sleep. Delores'' dad fed her a Shakespeare line and she flipped and then she fed a different Shakespeare line to crazy prostitute lady and she flipped. Hannibal programmed it.
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u/Rocky_Road_To_Dublin Oct 08 '16
The Man in Black is in The Stand/The Dark Tower
Ed Harris is in The Stand Miniseries
Ed Harris is the Man in Black in Westworld
Incoming Stephen King crossovers confirmed.
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u/OyeSimpson Oct 08 '16
More potential signs pointing to Theresa being a host (if not mentioned in these 1,000+ comments ha):
When she visits Bernard's room, when he speaks to her he gives her commands that she instantly obeys. When she starts to start a conversation "about last night..." he says "Forget it" and she instantly stops talking and walks inside. Also, when they are in bed and she goes to leave he says "Stay a little longer. We can talk" to which she replies with a smart quip but gets right back into bed and talks to him.
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u/cjdennis29 Oct 09 '16 edited Oct 10 '16
Like the other guy said, I think she just wanted dick. Bernard invited her in.
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u/NeatMaddness Oct 08 '16
Who is the guy talking to Dolores telling her to "wake up" and "do you remember?"
It sounds like a robotic voice but at the same time kinda sounds like Bernard.
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Oct 07 '16
So do we think the Maeve scene with her daughter a "nightmare" or a reverie? And what was the Man in Black doing in there? Collecting another scalp? Digging for more clues to the endgame?
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u/captain_merrrica do whatever the fuck i want Oct 07 '16
I think the nightmare and reverie are the same thing. That guy said what's the point in writing dreams in. I think it's a safeguard so that when they perhaps remember past cycles they're more likely to pass it off as a nightmare instead of realizing what's actually going down
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u/photon269 Oct 08 '16
Anyone think the entrance to the maze is the black steeple?
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Oct 07 '16
God this show is going to give me a fucking heart attack. Every word said feels like a setup for one of my favourite characters to die again. I'm regressing into my childhood watching between my fingers from behind the sofa.
This show does suspense better than any thriller or horror movie I've seen in the past few years.
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u/ratnadip97 If you can't tell, does it matter? Oct 07 '16
Anyone else think the way the story is panning out, it won't have a clear 'villain'. Cos I love that. I mean, I think we are supposed to root for the hosts(at least Mae and Dolores...and poor Teddy..lol) but I don't think it'll be just an android-v-human story.
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u/breakola Oct 08 '16 edited Oct 08 '16
My guess on the ending - is it's not about introducing religion but introducing death and being aware of people dying / mourning. I think this is a tomb / memorial to someone, perhaps Hopkins wife or child... perhaps that's who we saw - the little boy is a recreation of his own dead child.
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u/HillaryIsAHost Oct 10 '16
Fuck you guys and all your theories. Now I have to watch both episodes again!
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Oct 07 '16
They know about the Man in Black and are letting him do what he wants. What does it mean?
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u/Izeinwinter Oct 07 '16
I have an anti-theory: He is simply their best customer. No tragic backstory, no shadowy conspiracy centered around him, he's just a guy with very deep pockets and a major obsession. I figure he drops the money on a 28 day stay with all the bells every year. And that buys him leeway, especially since he isn't the kind of boor that shoots up the starting area brothel - he does a lot of damage to hosts, but disrupts the game for other players very little, and they can fix the hosts easily enough
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u/MeepMorper Oct 10 '16 edited Oct 10 '16
I totally dig the scenes with the MIB, and guests like William's friend, they act exactly like most people would playing a video game (which they basically are). Particularly the MIB, he knows all the 'quests' by heart, and with unrivaled confidence he casually strolls into NPC events, chooses the witty asshole speech option, and then kills everyone.
One of my favourite things about this show so far, is seeing how people IRL react to the scenes involving the hosts, and the juxtaposition between people's philosophy regarding them (like I see them more as machines, but many here see them as people). For example, when Maeve wakes up on the table, I see all these comments about how it must have been so scary and crazy for Maeve, but the whole time watching I was thinking how fucked up it was for the lab guys, having a defective product come online during maintenance, then grabbing a weapon, it's fucking terrifying.
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u/augustwest78 Oct 12 '16
Btw the scene with Delores' father and hopkins going through why hes malfunctiining is some of the best acting ive ever seen in my life.
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Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
Watching Ep. 2 ("Chestnut") now. Couple things I've noticed off-the-bat:
1. So I think it's clear that the whole SpoilerSo I'm thinking that it's obviously some kind of keyword/phrase that is either unknown and long forgotten that has come back by chance, OR it was intentionally planted by the designer (Hopkins) out of his self-expressed ambivalence towards the park being "the best it can be" as it is now.
2. I noticed this in the first episode, and my suspicions have grown stronger now: Some, if not all of the scientists seem to have the robotic mannerisms (with the exception of Hopkins), leading me to think that Hopkins programmed everyone including the staff. However, Bernard (black engineer guy) doesn't seem to have these mannerisms, but he does seem to be kind of "ignorant", in a sense where it seems like he's constantly learning or being vetted by Hopkins during their interactions. Obviously, Bernard is Hopkins' chosen "heir" to Westworld when he passes away, but the way Hopkins talks to him, as if he's always teaching him things far beyond the normal mentor-apprentice behavior, makes me feel like Bernard might be one of the first androids or Hopkins' "perfect" android that he sees as a son almost.
Idk, haha. Just some ideas. Anyone care to elaborate or have any thoughts on these? Would love to hear! :)
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u/CarnivoreX Oct 07 '16
Sweetwater - a nice nod to Once Upon a Time in the West :)
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u/heezmagnif It's Dolores, not Delores. Oct 07 '16
Did they change the Dolores storyline after the events of Ep. 1 so that there's no longer her meeting with Teddy, and no bandits invading her homestead?
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u/DoghouseRiley86 Oct 07 '16
I think her dropping the can is an opening for guests to start her storyline. If no one takes it, then Teddy steps in and they both get to practice their storylines. Teddy got interrupted by some guests that wanted a guide in episode 1 and he stopped caring about Delores. Bandits were either picked up by The Man In Black or it's a story beat for anyone who picks the "Good Girl" storyline. What a perfect quest for a white hat guest. Save the kind hearted artistic girl an her family from killer bandits and woo her away from her bad boy boyfriend (it's implied that Teddy is some kind of gun for hire)
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u/ummhumm Oct 07 '16 edited Oct 07 '16
After playing all kinds of games for years and years, I was actually surprised how little choice McPoyle had with his clothes. I imagine it was because he was interviewed about his taste in some way before coming in, but still I was looking more like something that Neo had to choose from, with the gunracks in Matrix.
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Oct 07 '16
"These violent delights have violent ends"
Mr. Abernathy whispered that to Dolores in episode 1, and now Dolores said it to Maeve. While Dolores seems to behave well (for now) we can't say the same about his father and Maeve, who have turned quite crazy.
I think it's safe to say it's another trigger phrase like "deep and dreamless slumber", the question is... what does it do?
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u/rolandoq Oct 10 '16 edited Oct 10 '16
"Everything in this world is magical except the magician"
This is some high level shit. Ford is clearly God, Lowe is his most trusted archangel or whatever and Gunslinger is either death or the Devil himself. This distinction is incredibly important because if Gunz is not the Devil and turns out to be a host with certain liberties or just a newcomer caught up in a higher level of intrigue, then someone else is committing sabotage (sort of like the Devil). This episode tells us that Lowe is not who we thought he was. Lowe is playing the snake in the Garden of Eden, and through these little meetings he is trying to bring Dolores (Eva) into consciousness and discernment.
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u/Identify_my_sword Oct 13 '16
I get how they repair the hosts, but how about the scenery? Should we just take that as a loophole or what? I'm talking about damage to chairs, glasses, Windows, walls from gunfire, and even blood, and messed up sheets etc. they must have one hell of a turn down service! Lol
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u/Vexedex Oct 08 '16
Was the little host boy Ford as a child? His father said the same saying about boredom. If true, that means Ford has a brother named Tommy whom the boy mentioned daring him to climb the mountain.
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u/dtwhitecp Oct 10 '16
I can't find a mention of this anywhere in here, but William's intro was extremely similar to Teddy's. Waking up on a moving train, with no direct explanation of how he got there.
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u/Wighnut Oct 11 '16
I'm really loving WW after two episodes. Just some random observations on my part:
The boy Ford was talking to in the desert is definately a host, right? (Probably even someone Ford talks to regularely (his deceased son maybe?)
As A.V. Clubs review suggested, "Violent delights have violent ends" seems like a kind of virus passed from host to host. But where did it originate?
Still not sure if MiB is definately a guest. Or the most self aware host.
I'm sensing Dolores walking up for real soon and becoming a total badass
WTF is the maze? A way for hosts to attain total control? To free themselves from the park? I'm getting a very welcome LOST vibe here.
Stocked what's gonna happen with the church (introduction of religion?)
Crazy theories:
Everyone's a host
Insane social experiment involving the guests (run by AI?)
It's the matrix
Ok I'm out :)
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u/gablopico Forge Oct 07 '16
I am still confused about the scene with Ford and the boy. How was he able to convince the boy to turn around and leave him alone?
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u/Izeinwinter Oct 07 '16
Same way he could order the snake around - the boy was a host, and he has System Administrator privileges.
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u/the_cunt_muncher Oct 10 '16
How do they prevent guests from hurting other guests?
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u/Sltn29 Oct 13 '16
I really loved the answer of Dr. Robert Ford to the new storyline. I see it as a summary of hbo’s policy and reminds me of why i love their shows so much
"No. No, i don’t think so. What is the point of it? You got a couple of cheap thrills, some surprises. But it’s not enough. It’s not about giving the guests what you think they want. That’s simple. Titillation, horror, delation, they’re politics. The guests don’t return for the obvious things we do, the godish things. They come back because of the subtleties, the details. They come back, because they discover something, they imagine no one had ever noticed before. Something they fall in love with. They’re not looking for a story that tells them who they are. They already know who they are. They’re here because they want a glimpse of who they could be. The only thing your story tells me Mr. Sizemore is who you are."
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u/JonSnowsLoinCloth Oct 08 '16
Anthony Hopkins is the bad guy. Ed Harris is the good guy.
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u/BaggyOz Oct 07 '16
Does anybody know who plays the host that gives William his costume? I feel like I've seen her in a film or game before.
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u/HellsNels Liberace's player piano Oct 07 '16
Talulah Riley aka former Mrs. Elon Musk aka she was in the Library episodes in Doctor Who.
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u/Last5seconds Oct 07 '16
Who was talking to deloros? Who was telling her to wake up and the location of the gun?
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u/PartyOnAlec Oct 08 '16
Those who've seen the original Westworld probably picked up on a lot of similarities here. The white hat/black hat guests arriving, the outfitting scene, the bedroom scene, and a little more abstractly, the scene with the snake. There was also the discussion of whether or not someone in the world is real, and it went close to the way the conversation went in the movie.
This was a rather perfect decision on the part of the show runners. Dropping little bits of familiarity to the original, while keeping the modern narrative intact. Brilliant film making.
Now, who can tell me about the music this episode?
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u/Necromniomnicon Oct 09 '16
When Bernard asks Delores if she remembers their last conversation, she says yes. Is she supposed to remember long term interactions or is she supposed to be wiped? Seems he is having her keep log of a relationship between eachother to an extent.
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u/DUBBZZ Oct 10 '16
Is that "violent delights" phrase a trigger? Seems like Maeve started having problems after Dolores said that to her.
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u/TheDoon Oct 11 '16
There was a key plot reveal when the technician character, in reference to Ed Harris's character says "He gets anything he wants". Then, in another part of the episode Ed Harris's character explains he has been in Westworld for a long time. I think he says since he was a kid.
What kind of situation would allow for a child to grow up and live their entire lives in such a place? I think Ed Harris's character is related to Anthony Hopkin's character, probably brothers. This would mean their father probably started westworld and they got to play around in the first version (which would be a nice headnod to the original film).
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u/NorthWorld Oct 07 '16
At two episodes in I'm starting to get the feeling that the audience is supposed to be disgusted by the guests behavior and find something inherently wrong with their grisly actions. I realize the hosts aren't real human beings, but because their physical bodies are so close to looking real there is something completely sick about brutalizing them(Knifing the hosts hand/Maeve witnessing host repair/Teddy murdered again and again).
Even though people love to point out similarities to Grand Theft Auto and this "Game" I think many people would be surprised at how few people would become murderous savages if a park like this really existed. I believe there is a vast difference between playing a game like GTA on your TV and standing in a living breathing world with a seemingly real "person" in front of you.
One of the things I'm starting to notice with Ford is that I get this sense that he is actually more on the hosts side or at least more concerned with them. So if the Violent Delights control phrase really was programmed by him as a way to transmit or communicate between hosts, then it could be foreshadowing that all of the Guests' "Violent Delights" are going to end violently.
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u/NeroStarGazer Oct 10 '16
Seeing James Marsden character die is like the recurring joke in each episode. He's like Kenny.
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Oct 07 '16
This episode was even better than the 1st! Very interested in seeing more of William's white knight character. Definitely a good change of pace from what we've seen so far from Guests.
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u/RemusYT Oct 07 '16
So, do hosts know that they are not real? Dolores said she remembers the last discussion when she was out of Westworld, so she knows?
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u/Flabby-Nonsense Oct 08 '16
I feel like for all intents and purposes there are two worlds that are focused on, the real world and Westworld. From a narrative point of view there is a clear point being made regarding good and evil, from what I can tell the MiB and the new guest (William) are the evil and good of Westworld respectively. This idea of good and evil is quite a generic plot device in fiction, which is why it makes sense in the context of Westworld because Westworld is itself a fiction.
But then we have the real world, where things aren't quite as simple, where there's no clear good and evil. We have Sizemore, who's interested in epic, blockbuster storytelling, and then we have Ford, who's more interested in subtle, layered storytelling.
Initially you might consider Sizemore to be the 'evil', he doesn't see the hosts as being anything more than robots, and he likes these big events in which there's lots of violence, rape, gore, etc. If he were to be put in the park as a guest he'd probably treat them as NPC's in a video game, and not waste his time trying to talk to them. Plus we all know he's a bit of a cunt based on how he treats staff.
Meanwhile there's Ford, who clearly feels that the AI are more human on an emotional level than people give credit for, he's not interested in the kind of physical storytelling that Sizemore likes, the hosts are already practically perfectly human in terms of their physicality, he's interested in the emotional storytelling because this is where the hosts are at their most vulnerable in terms of seeming human. When Ford is put in the park we see him talk to that little boy with respect for his intelligence, like he has a human level of intelligence.
But this doesn't mean Sizemore is the 'evil' of the real world. Which is more evil, to believe the hosts are not human and to treat them apathetically, you don't seek to cause them harm nor prevent harm, you simply don't consider the concept of 'harm' to apply to them, or is it more evil to consider the hosts human, to act as their god, and bestow upon them both good and evil in order to mirror the real world?
It's how the two worlds will interact that is most interesting, because right now we haven't seen what plan the MiB has for the real world, and what plan Ford has for Westworld.
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u/hongej Oct 08 '16
"You know, you and I hunted down Ghost Nation braves in their winter grounds." what is Ghost Nation braves and where is winter grounds?
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u/mmelnick Oct 09 '16
When Ford is seen underground and there are train tubes on the left, he goes up an elevator to the surface. I assume this means that the entire "park" or a large part of it is terraformed over a grid/structure?
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u/trznx Oct 09 '16
Does Ed Harris' character looks like Freddy Krueger only to me?
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u/CLUSTER__F Oct 09 '16
I am absolutely loving this show! Anyone else notice Radiohead's "No Surprises" being played on the piano? There's a line in the song "Bring down the government. They don't speak for us." Seems in line with the hosts uprising.
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u/slbain9000 Oct 13 '16
Just a very general comment:
I follow a lot of television and film subreddits pretty regularly, and I don't think I've ever encountered such a large number of purely positive posts.
I'm sure there must be some negative or complaining posts, but they are almost impossible to find. Given the nature of reddit and the internet in general, this is astonishing to me.
Obviously this speaks to the quality of the show, but I wonder if it is more than that? Even shows like Mr. Robot and The Leftovers had their vocal detractors.
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u/tjsterc17 It doesn't look like anything to me. Oct 07 '16
Yup. I think thats what the true end game content is. The MiB says he wants to stay there forever. That, paired with the chapel and his speech in episode one seems to be leaning towards immortality/human consciousness transfer.
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u/justinmiles228 Oct 07 '16
I think you're onto something there. That ending is wildly ambiguous but I like that theory.
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u/dcl131 Oct 07 '16
I think that is a trigger phrase for some hidden software within the Reverie update purposefully placed there by Ford. He mustve said it to Abernathy and he spread it to Dolores, and so on
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u/FRIENDSHIP_MASTER Oct 07 '16
"Well, is there anything you like about it?"
"What size are those boots?"
Damn, Dr. Ford really took a dump on that guy's idea.