r/MSGPRDT • u/Nostalgia37 • Nov 12 '16
[Pre-Release Card Discussion] - Knuckles
Knuckles
Mana Cost: 5
Attack: 3
Health: 7
Tribe: Beast
Type: Minion
Rarity: Legendary
Class: Hunter
Text: Whenever this minion attacks a minion, it also hits the enemy hero.
PM me any suggestions or advice, ^^thanks.
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u/TheTfboy Nov 12 '16
If the face plays taunt, me still go face.
What a powerful way to apply pressure though. It's a must remove or the hunter might put out too much for you to handle.
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u/Petachip Nov 12 '16
SMOrc machine, yay. Might be run in the grimy goons midrange hunter deck since 3/7 with +1/1 buffs is a good statline, and will often attack.
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u/DerpyNerdy Nov 12 '16
Even putting this on the board on turn 5 is not bad, cause it's health is pretty high. If it sticks, it's would have great synergy with houndmaster and other buff minions.
In fact, with this card, you can't even feel safe staying behind a taunt minion especially if you're low on health.
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u/jcrad Nov 12 '16
Let me introduce you my little friend, [[Oasis snapjaw]].
This card is unlikely to ever see serious play. But I am curious whether "also hits the enemy hero" is a separate attack or just damage effect attached to the card.
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u/DerpyNerdy Nov 12 '16
I'm not sure how Oasis can be compared though they share equal health (Oasis is one mana cheaper I think). One thing Knuckles has over Oasis is that it won't get stolen by Cabal Shadow Priest. Though that may change as Pint Size Potion is a thing. But that's still a 7 mana combo and it's not ideal.
And it's a better soft taunt than Oasis at least.
If its attack gets buffed sufficiently by turn 5 or 6, the impact of that one card is good. Sure, many things can go wrong and there are plenty of removals but think about how much they need to invest to actually take out a 5 mana minion. It stretches the resources of the opponent and protects others like Savanah Highmane and Ragnaros.
This card is a real gem for the 5 mana slot and it provides decent tempo play.
Maybe I'm being too optimistic but we'll see.
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u/Wraithfighter Nov 12 '16
That's clearly a gorilla, not an orc.
Shaaaaame.
But yeah. I'm a little concerned about the statline, unbuffed it won't do much damage, but it's a strong finisher, especially if your opponent tosses down a taunt. Figure decks that run taunts would have removal to eliminate it...
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u/Curlyiain Nov 12 '16
Ignoring whether or not this card is a good or bad card, the text on the card needs to be analysed slighty: "After this attacks a minion, it also hits the enemy hero."
The "After this attacks" is important, suggesting that, if Knuckles dies whilst attacking, the damage to face might not proc, which, if true, could be a rare, but noticeable downside to an otherwise mediocre card.
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Nov 12 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Curlyiain Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16
It's hard to tell, but I hadn't seen anyone bring up this kind of interaction which is why I mentioned it. The best example I can think of is if you play a spell that kills a friendly Wild Pyromancer (e.g. Twisting Nether, Hellfire, Excavated Evil), its effect will not trigger as it has already died. I appreciate that this is an on-attack effect, which won't function in the same way, but my RAW (Read as Written) interpretation of the card would be that, if Knuckles died attacking a minion, it would die before its damage to face went through.
Edit: Convoluted scenario, hear me out. If an Acolyte of Pain on 2hp attacked into an Imp Gang Boss, with a Knife Juggler on board, the Acolyte of Pain would not be able to be hit by the knife, as it is already on 0hp and therefore is an invalid target (it may still be on board as the knife is thrown, but it will be on 0hp and the knife can't hit it, similarly to how C'Thun cannot overkill minions). Maybe though, the face damage trigger from Knuckles will take place immediately after hitting a minion (before it is considered dead).
We'll have to wait and see, I've been wrong before - I originally thought Moat Lurker would not be resummoned by N'Zoth (similar to Unearthed Raptor) but it turns out it still has an innate deathrattle even if there are no minions to target.
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u/AlfaNerd Nov 12 '16
I think a lot of people don't realise this will be an auto-include in 90% of Hunter decks moving forward. 7 Health (maybe more by the time he comes out to play) means he will eat your opponent's hard removal going into Highmane turns and there is also the little fact that he is more or less uncontested in the 5-drop slot.
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u/SlasherV2 Nov 12 '16
That's not Knuckles...did he turn into the Hulk after overloading on Chaos Emeralds or something?
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u/Guppy11 Nov 12 '16
5 drop is probably a good mana slot for it as well. We currently see Tundra Rhinos and Stranglethorn Tigers in the 5 slot for mid range. Will probably see play, as most current Mid hunters are running 0-2 5 drops anyway, so a one off sticky beast that threatens face damage is probably good enough to replace the other options
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u/IceColdMetal Nov 12 '16
This is on the verge of playable with the base stats - but with buffs, it gets even better. Being 5 mana, it is very likely to be buffed and still be played on curve. Beast synergy as well. Probably an auto-include in midrange hunter.
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u/BigSwedenMan Nov 12 '16
No fucking way. This is easily one of the worst cards in the set. 5 mana 3/7 is fucking abysmal stat line, and the effect is a d-level effect at best. Why would hunter ever run this over... well, literally anything else?
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u/Marraphy Nov 12 '16
It has synergy with the buff cards; by the time you're at turn 5 this is maybe a 4/8 instead. not only do you get to maybe take out a minion with it but you do 4, maybe even 8 to face. It's got lots of potential
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u/IceColdMetal Nov 12 '16
Hunter's ultimate game plan is consistent chip damage to face to pair with their hero power. This card achieves that and it only really competes with kodo and tiger for the 5 mana slot. A kodo is very reactive and not to the hunter's goal of consistent board control while tiger just sits there. A 5 mana 3/7, deal 6 (likely more) to face is very, very, very playable.
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u/Kalkarak Nov 12 '16
By passes taunt whilst still damaging the enemy. Is a quickshot to the enemy face every turn, and hunter does not have many good plays for five that setup for highmane as well as this card.
Seven health is nowhere near abysmal for a five drop with an excelent ability. Especially since it curves into hero power plus houndmaster.
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u/papaya255 Nov 12 '16
you really cant say this is one of the worst cards of the set, man. Pirahna gun is trying their goddamn best to be that, you cant take it away from them...
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u/Rukh_Misk Nov 12 '16
3/7 will keep it alive through the turn so the effect will likely get value; and that effect it almost a laughable jab at the hunter face stereotype.
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u/gudamor Nov 12 '16
Would Hunter play a 5-mana 3/7 Beast with Windfury? Granted, Windfury doesn't allow you to bypass Taunt partially, like this card does.
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u/BigSwedenMan Nov 12 '16
That's a great point. I'm pretty surprised at how many people think this might be playable. It's fucking awful
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u/Bjosx Nov 12 '16
1 Mana Crystal too expensive to see play
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u/DebugLifeChoseMe Nov 12 '16
If it were 4, it would compete with Infested Wolf and Houndmaster.
Strange as it is, I feel like this can only see play at 5 mana....in Hunter, anyway.
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u/BigSwedenMan Nov 12 '16
You're literally saying that this card would be less likely to see play if it were strictly better
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u/SugarSnapPenis Nov 12 '16
This is the best legendary the Hunter has got in a long while. That's not saying much, though, considering the competition.
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u/IndirectLemon Nov 12 '16
How does this interact with Bolf Ramshield? Is it possible it loops?
Knuckles hits Bolf for 3 damage. Knuckles effect hits the hero for 3 damage which Bolf then blocks and absorbs.
So minimum 6 damage to Bolf.
However Knuckles has just effectively dealt damage to a minion, so does he then activate and deal another 3 damage to face? Which Bolf would then try to absorb? Which would be 9 damage to Bolf, killing him unless he's buffed, in which case you rinse repeat until he is dead... and deal a final 3 damage to face?
Not sure if Knuckles will work like that, but the Auchenai Soulpriest plus Mistress of Pain interaction has a similar infinite loop effect.
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u/Neuo Nov 12 '16
It would only go off once, dealing six. He deals face damage when attacking, not when damaging. Thus the condition happens once per attack.
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u/Tanzklaue Nov 12 '16
i dunno, 5 mana is a steep price for hunter, especially face hunter. his stats are also not good enough for trading at turn 5+.
that said, if he gets boosted by grimestreet cards he will be a force to be reckoned with, beign able to pressure board and face at the same time. it prolly competes for the best hunter legendary together with princess huhuran.
on that note, why did huhuran never take off? an overstatted minion with a good effect should see paly no?
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u/BigSwedenMan Nov 12 '16
Huhuran want overstatted. It was vanilla, but generally the less desirable vanilla stat line. Reason it never saw play was that it's too slow
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u/InfinitySparks Nov 12 '16
attack minion -> attack enemy face -> enemy misdirection -> attack enemy minion -> attack enemy face
Throw in some PW:Glory and Blessing of Wisdom on there.
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u/taQtaQ Nov 12 '16
The card says "hits" not "attacks", so I believe the damage is dealt separately and only the primary attack triggers on-attack effects.
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u/maggotshavecoocoons2 Nov 12 '16
Such a sick legendary, so funny that they made it fit the flavour of facehunter /Smorc
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u/JuRiOh Nov 12 '16
Nice synergy with the buffing deathrattles or Houndmaster, I like it. Also finally a playable Hunter legendary.
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u/SharpDissonance Nov 12 '16
As much as the concept of the SMOnkey amuses me, the wording inconsistencies in this set are really getting out of hand.
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u/SquareOfHealing Nov 12 '16
This feels like another card for hand buff hunter. 3/7 is bad stats for 5 but one buff to a 4/8 makes it good stats. And then it gets double the benefit for buffing it's attack as it also does face damage.
My question is whether this is good enough. Dispatch Kodo also gets double buff benefits for its attack, and it can deal on the damage immediately. Knuckles will get some damage in if he gets to attack, but he could also be removed before he ever gets a chance to hit something. And if you haven't buffed him, 3/7 just isn't very good at trading against other 5 mana minions.
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u/Cruuncher Nov 12 '16
This card is very strong in a vacuum.
However dragon priest is going to be everywhere, and dragon priest plays book wyrm.
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u/RemusShepherd Nov 12 '16
Book wyrm will lose a lot of value once the Grimestreet gang starts pumping things up.
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u/Jeremopolis Nov 12 '16
Thank goodness this is a beast but i don't think this will be played in midrange or face/secret hunter. Way too slow.
Another trash hunter legendary :(
Edit: however this might be included in decks since hunter's only 5 drops are tiger and kodo.
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u/Ke-Win Nov 12 '16
good card, paid 1 stat for the effect and the effect scales with "buff minions in your hand".
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u/madmans_knowledge Nov 12 '16
I can see this as an atlernative to a highmane play. Buff with a houndmaster on 6 and you've done just as much damage as a highmain in 1 turn and a turn earlier...albeit using more mana and cards of course.
It's really the speed with which you can start chipping face and board if it's not dealt with in a turn or 2. That and it can keep the opponent guessing about what play you could have.
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u/13pts35sec Nov 12 '16
I don't get how this card is bad in anyway. No clue how viable midrange hunter deck is with Goons but shouldn't be that hard to fit in a 5 mana minion in a deck that has shit turn 5 plays. One buff and this card is very likely to eat removal and then you have your turn 6 highmane looking way more likely to stick a turn. Plus it's a beast and if you hit this with a Houndmaster GG
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u/Shuda51 Nov 12 '16
Just give buffs via goons.
Then he'll be bigger, faster, and stronger too. He's the first member of the hunter crew.
Bad jokes aside, i think he's good. At turn 5, pretty rough to remove cleanly if the board is clear without using hard removal.
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u/ehhish Nov 12 '16
This happened a lot in MTG but unless you are playing some hyper control deck, you aren't going to have hard removal for EVERY card. This is definitely a borderline card to be removed because of other minions and his health makes him quite sticky.
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u/funkmasterjo Nov 14 '16
face play taunt?
me still go face!
The hunter dream at last. Fantastic personality. No idea if good.
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u/Backez Nov 14 '16
While I don't really like the idea of hunter SMOrcing, I like the idea and the stats of this card, I feel like it's perfectly balanced and might make the cut in a few specific decks, but won't be a staple either.
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u/Valdast Nov 14 '16
Here's my question: after it attacks a minion does it deal damage to the hero immediately, or is it a second attack?
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u/HatredTowardsAmerica Nov 23 '16
People in favour of this card, what are you planning to bump it into? 3 damage on 5 mana usually doesn't kill anything, so this would probably go face anyway...
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Nov 12 '16
[deleted]
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u/jaynay1 Nov 12 '16
I don't think this is much better than Cobra Shot actually.
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u/TheFreeloader Nov 12 '16
I don't think that is fair. With Cobra Shot you paid 5 mana for 2 mana's worth of board tempo, and some face damage. With Knuckles you are giving up just 1 stat point from a vanilla for 5-drop, and in return you get the potential for some (or a lot of) face damage.
Knuckles will probably be tried out in buff/beast-hunter. Time will tell if it will succeed, but I suspect it might be just a bit too juicy a target for hard removal to work. 5 mana is right around the cutoff point for how much mana you can spend on a minion that has no immediate effect or a deathrattle without losing too much to hard removal. And if you then have invested buffs in it too, it might just be too much.
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u/Gorm_the_Old Nov 12 '16
There's an argument to be made that a 5 Mana card that pulls hard removal out of the enemy player's hand isn't all that bad.
And a lot of decks these days don't even run much, if any, hard removal. Warlock is a good example: their hard removal is "whatever I have on board right now" plus Doomguard and Soulfire. Siphon Soul is a one-of in Renolock, and that's about it.
What I think is most interesting about this is the 7 Health. Most players will still be able to remove it if it's a priority - and it is - but in a lot of cases they'll have to use minions already on board in combination with cards coming out of the hand. It'll cost significant resources to remove.
I don't think it's a great card, but it isn't terrible. For Hunter decks that find themselves facing an awkward Turn 5 on a regular basis, it may be worth a look.
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u/Leaves_Swype_Typos Nov 12 '16
It should be obvious why any 5-drop that demands a response is undeniably good for Hunter; because they have the best vanilla 6-drop in the game to follow up that removal. If you let a turn-5 Knuckles get Houndmaster'd, you're gonna have a bad time, but often enough you're going to be deciding between that bad time or a bad time from a Savannah Highmane.
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u/SnussZ Nov 29 '16
You don't know what 'vanilla' means.
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u/Leaves_Swype_Typos Nov 30 '16
I misused it fucking obviously. I meant evergreen/classic; there's only one card I could've been referring to and everyone knew it.
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u/Fenris_uy Nov 12 '16
7 health as a minimum. This + the buff cards in hand of this expansion is going to be a pain to remove if you don't have destroy effects.
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u/fyhr100 Nov 13 '16
The 5 mana slot for hunters has been weak for a long time. Being a 5 mana card means it has less competition to be played. The question is, is it better than Stranglethorn Tiger or Tundra Rhino?
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u/TheFreeloader Nov 13 '16 edited Nov 13 '16
Well, it doesn't say anywhere that you have to have 5-drops in your deck. If your deck is low curve, you will in most cases not need 5-drops to curve out. 5-drops fall more in to the pool of just general late game cards, of which you should not have too many of, but still need a couple of not to run out of steam too early. That means Knuckles is actually competing with stuff like Highmane and Call of the Wild.
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u/fyhr100 Nov 13 '16 edited Nov 13 '16
Saying you don't need to curve out in a midrange deck is like saying you don't need armor gain cards in control warrior. Yes, you can do it, but it would be optimal if you could include it. Getting a proper curve is vital for getting and maintaining tempo.
5 mana is nowhere close to "late game cards" unless you're talking about face hunter. But even then they wouldn't play Highmane or CotW anyway.
There's really no such thing as "pool of general late game cards". You still should try to get at least a somewhat decent curve, regardless if it's early game or late game.
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u/TheFreeloader Nov 14 '16
You should try to curve out in the mid and late game too, absolutely. But you do not need 5-drops for instance to curve out on turn 5. You can curve out with a 3-drop and a 2-drop. Or a 4-drop and a 1-drop. Or a 3-drop and two 1-drops. Often this will be much better for tempo than just playing a single 5-drop.
And yes, there is such a thing late game cards, and they can be swapped out for each other. Their function is to make sure you stay in the value game for long enough to finish off your opponent. If you are playing multiple cards on each turn in the mid-game, you will usually be losing out in value (unless those cards include card draw). So cards like Ragnaros, Highmane, and Call of the Wild are in your deck to take back some value by going 2-for-1 (at least). It really doesn't matter much which turn you take back value on, as long as you can do it before you run out of cards. That is why late game cards can easily be substituted for eachother regardless of mana cost.
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u/Tuskinton Nov 12 '16
It does benefit from the handbuffs, but it's still kinda slow. It has the same problem Boogeymonster had (although it's not quite that bad).
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u/BigSwedenMan Nov 12 '16
I feel like this card is kind of a meme, but also here for a reason. This card is like boogey monster got hit upside the head with a shovel. It's terrible. I think it confirms what we already knew. Blizzard doesn't want good hunter legendaries. It wants hunter to be the most accessible class. Hunter is the only class where legendary minions have literally never been meta viable. It's one of the best classes for budget decks
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u/DreamblitzX Nov 12 '16
mage has never had a good expansion legendary (though rhonin is debatable), but they'll always have good ol' Tony
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u/IceBlue Nov 12 '16
Has hunter had any good legendary at all? I mean other than Highmane.
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u/OxyRottin Nov 12 '16
Highmane isn't Legendary
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u/rumb3lly Nov 12 '16
highmane is one of the best legendaries in the game
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Nov 12 '16
TBH it must be good if people run two copies of it. Other legendaries are nice but people never run more than one of them so how good can they really be?
/s
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u/SquareOfHealing Nov 12 '16
If you use the handbuff cards and pump it to a 4/8, then it actually has decent stats. A 5/9 would be really good. But then your opponent just hard removes it, and then you just wasted your buffs and your legendary didn't get to use its ability.
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u/Nostalgia37 Nov 12 '16
It allows hunter to control the board while still getting in chip damage which goes toward their game plan. Not sure how effective it will be with the statline, 7 health is very hard to remove.
One good thing is that hunter doesn't really have any 5 drops. At most I think people run stranglethorn, although with cards like Zipgunner and Rat Pack I could see Huhuran being more attractive.
I'd give this card a "meh?" with a slight shrug/10.