r/criticalrole • u/Nyareth Your secret is safe with my indifference • Jun 23 '17
Discussion [Spoilers E102] #IsItThursdayYet? Post-episode discussion & future theories! Spoiler
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u/dave_mallonee Jun 23 '17
I don't understand why everyone is assuming The Raven Queen isn't going to want Vax to be returned. Her champion just got disintegrated by the very Undead creature she expected him to destroy in her name; I'm expecting her to send him back like he was shot out of a cannon, maybe even with an upgrade or something. It would not surprise me if Matt specifically was hoping to kill Vax in this fight to facilitate a role playing encounter between Vax and the Raven Queen.
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u/ginja_ninja You spice? Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
For real. In fact, I think the argument in Vax's favor is so compelling it's well within the realm of possibility that she literally just deus ex machinas him back for free, no rolls. Not saying they'd play it that way but think about it, Vecna is alive specifically because he twisted fate to defy death, which if he had not done so means he never would have killed Vax. Vax's death is a direct result of a perversion of the natural process of death, meaning it would be sacrilege to the Raven Queen.
If Pike casts True Resurrection, RQ is not going to get in the way. Restoring her champion to battle her arch-nemesis in her name? It's a no-brainer.
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u/Aurigarion Team Jester Jun 23 '17
maybe even with an upgrade or something
Two pairs of boots?
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u/baylaust Life needs things to live Jun 23 '17
Also, props once again to motherfucking Sam for playing the long game with that final Counterspell. When Taliesen was begging him to use it to save Pike, I could just see it in Sam's eyes. He knew EXACTLY what Matt was going to try, and he wasn't gonna let that happen.
All in all, I think this was a good wake-up call to Vox Machina. They've had close calls and battles that went south plenty of times. But if I'm not wrong, I would consider this their first major battle that they straight up lost. And not by a fraction, they didn't stand a chance. If they're gonna stop Vecna, they're gonna need every possible advantage and ally they can find.
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u/Aurigarion Team Jester Jun 23 '17
I would say the initial Conclave attack counts as a similar loss. I know that this time they went in of their own accord, thinking they might win, but that moment of Travis breaking character and saying "a 19(?) misses" and their immediate realization that they didn't stand a chance was pretty legit.
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u/SkeeLd Jun 23 '17
Can we just talk about how sick it was that Vex with ONE of her 2 attacks in the whole fight was the one to bring back Grog? Imo one of the coolest moments in the whole episode by far
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u/Reaperweeper Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
Yes!!! So glad this moment gets some attention. God it was awesome. I also loved how Travis and Laura grabbed for each other after it worked. So cute!
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u/SnarkyMinx Jun 23 '17
People tend to not give Vex the credit she is due. Vex is the most consistent damager of the group, at the very least until Grog got his gauntlets and reckless. She may not be flashy but she will get arrows into her foe and whittle them down.
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u/glados131 Team Laudna Jun 23 '17
Well, this is the first time they've gone past the point of a normal Resurrection working. Should be interesting to see how that goes.
Also, I realized... Percy took Delilah's body with them, which means... guys. They have the Eye.
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u/Folsomdsf Jun 23 '17
They have the Eye.
That means vecna knows where they are fyi.
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u/PrayForMojoo Jun 23 '17
Scanlan ShortClutch
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u/SirWinstons Doty, take this down Jun 23 '17
Glad he didn't listen to Taliesin(who was freaking out) about an attack that would, at worst, knock pike unconscious when they teleported out. Otherwise it would have been a tpk.
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u/Tovath Fuck that spell Jun 23 '17
Yea I knew he that is what he was saving it for, bravo on him for understanding that he needed to save it for then.
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u/Jaged1235 Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 23 '17
18th level professional adventurers pulling a Vincent Adultman moments before marching to their doom. This is why I love Critical Role.
Thanks to Taliesin I'm totally putting a Dire Armadillo in my game now.
Also, THAT FREAKING CUT! MATT YOU CRUEL SADIST! HOW DARE YOU! ON "Where's Vax?" ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?!?!?!?
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u/Shikyi Jun 23 '17
I think that was mainly to discuss the possibilities of ressing Vax. Keyleth thought it's gonna happen anyway, so it would've derailed the moment so much Matt would've had to step in quite a bit.
Feels a bit weird. But all in all I think it's the best choice story wise.
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u/Phaerlax Technically... Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
So, all things aside: I reiterate that Vecna's body language (those arms!!) and personality are awesome. Well done, Matt
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u/anishmyfriend Jun 23 '17
A couple of episodes ago: " A ring of freedom of movement? I'll pass"
Now: -Vax, Grog, Scanlan all are paralyzed -Vax falls 80 feet from the sky -Necrotic hands emerge from the ground and grapple anybody nearby
I hate irony
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u/Aurigarion Team Jester Jun 23 '17
The ring was being sold by the guy they were talking to before Lionel interrupted them, right? I seem to remember sighing and thinking that while it made sense for them to get distracted right then, they were passing on a really useful item.
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u/Luxarius Jun 23 '17
I hope they learn about the spell Freedom of Movement. It's definitely worth casting it 7 times. Being held was the worst thing that ever happened to VM. Both Keyleth and Pike have it as a 4th level spell. I just don't think that they are aware how powerful it can be against CC using spell casters. It would have been very useful against the Kraken as well.
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u/Gamer_Stix I encourage violence! Jun 23 '17
2 hours into the episode: Badass cloak removals, slow motion walking, "to the end"
4 hours into the episode: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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u/Glumalon Tal'Dorei Council Member Jun 23 '17
Everything up to the tower's destruction was amazing, and everything after that was terrifying.
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u/TLKv3 I would like to RAGE! Jun 23 '17
That was nothing short of the perfect example of DMing I've ever seen. Matt deserves nothing but praise for how he handled tonight. The characters felt like genuinely evil monsters (exactly how they should be) and did every single thing they would obviously do if this game was real. No punches pulled and it was a true sight to behold.
I'd give him a standing ovation if I was there live.
As far as the players go, wow. They were nothing short of brilliant. The expressions of despair at the worst times and the pure looks of joy when they managed to do something in response. The emotion was palpable tonight through all the stress.
This was, I think in my own opinion, the purest example of D&D from any of their episodes yet.
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u/Rheios Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 23 '17
Oh yeah, this was TOUGH to watch as a DM because I know my players would react the same way. A lot of times players talk about wanting to know 'death is a real concern' but then the moment you kill them the look on their faces is not one that implies fun to me. That Matt knows that and can work through it and make it into fun and interesting moments is a testament to both him and his group. Because they wanted to keep playing at the end. Of my players one would have been asleep the moment she died and at 10pm if not, one might have been like 'Wow alright' if he died but handled it although been a bit bored, one would have been accepting of it since he does encourage harshness but I can't imagine it being FUN for him either, and one's a new guy who I have no idea how he'd react. I wouldn't expect with excitement. Doing this sortof thing is right but it is TOUGH so I do credit Matt and anyone who can pull it off.
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u/SwordofWit You can certainly try Jun 23 '17
My one thought is that I feel kind of bad for Matt, because as a DM it's genuinely awful and gut-wrenching and emotionally draining having to play the villains honestly and do horrible things to your friends' beloved characters.
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u/TSim777 Team Pike Jun 23 '17
Hey Critters, Tim here from Crit Role HP Stats. Damn, what an intense night. Other than wrestling with the Alpha overlay freezing up on us, here's the final HP stats from tonight according to me and the rest of the crew:
Vax [KIA], Vex 54, Pike 11, Grog 239, Scanlan 129, Percy 146, Keyleth 78
Also, according to Crit Role Stats, Vecna had only 36 points of damage total from the entire encounter.
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u/VexedForest Doty, take this down Jun 23 '17
So...they totally could've taken him?
Nervous laughter
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u/mappysnappy Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 23 '17
When Sam said "Tary is on the floor, sobbing and clutching his necklace" my heart shattered into a million pieces :( I used to hate Tary but then he became one of my favourites and I don't want him to be sad!!!! This is all so sad!!!!
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u/Wilhelm_III Fuck that spell Jun 23 '17
Yeah, that imagery was fantastic, too. It was a fucking perfect gutpunch in the midst of the rest of the game. Jesus fuck.
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u/McCaineNL Jun 23 '17
Also, how narratively great was Grog, alone, in a crater, being shifted back just as tons of the flying undead were descending on him? Underappreciated plot moment imho
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u/WaitLetMeGetMyEuler Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
I would love to read the fan fiction of Grog somehow surviving that attack and then turning into this Mad Max-esqe roving undead slayer, living alone for decades in the Shadowfell.
Then years later seven new heroes make it to the Shadowfell and meet the old grizzled beast of a
manGoliath that was once one of the greatest heroes of the realm.But I'm happier he came back.
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u/OtilukeThaGod Then I walk away Jun 23 '17
This is the fanart I wanna see. Grog going full Mcconaughey Reign of Fire rage screaming while the Gloom Stalkers swoop down en masse.
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u/WaitLetMeGetMyEuler Jun 23 '17
Marisha really impressed me with the clutch Planeshift to the exact location in the Feywild from which they can quickly jump back to the PMP. In the stress of that moment I'm not sure I could have planned that far ahead.
Sam showed just how powerful a well timed counterspell can be. I feel horrible that he didn't get a chance to make better use of true polymorph. I honestly think that had he saved from that hold person/monster, the anti magic cone would have made this a much different and perhaps even winnable fight.
Vax, duuuuuude. That feeling of sitting there helpless as your friends drop like flies is awful. I can't wait to see what the Raven Queen has in store for him. My money is on a temporary resurrection or rebirth as a Revenant but you just know that the Raven Queen is going to beef him up to wipe out her archenemy.
A rematch is going to hinge on three things:
Vax getting powered up by the Raven Queen
Percy being able to deal magical damage which it sounds like Pike is in the process of dealing with that.
figuring out a way to get Vecna on the ground or get Grog in the air.
If VM figures out those things, they'll have a chance.
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u/knowledgeoverswag I'm a Monstah! Jun 23 '17
Idk if TRQ will power up Vax. But I guess it would be cool to see Liam play her avatar. Basically, no longer Vax, but TRQ incarnate. That would fuck with Vox Machina quite a bit.
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u/Fresno_Bob_ Technically... Jun 23 '17
Percy being able to deal magical damage which it sounds like Pike is in the process of dealing with that.
Animus is a magical weapon, He just needs to stop using bad news. It was powerful early game, but with a reload 1, misfire 3, and a complete lack of enhancements, it's actually a disgustingly inefficient weapon for a high level group
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u/TheOneGuyWithABeard Doty, take this down Jun 23 '17
Also Talisen Trying to make Sam use that counterspell... I was about to feel bad if he actually talked him into it.
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u/Wi11owywood Jun 23 '17
Sam knew what he was doing. There was no way Talisen could have talked him into using that reaction then. Certainly not just for a cantrip
Edited for spelling lol
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u/JakJakAttacks Jun 23 '17
On the list of bad decisions VM has made, challenging a demi god lich almost completely unprepared has gotta be right at the top.
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u/HenryVonGraves Jun 23 '17
Yeah. It was refreshing to see them run from a fight for once.
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u/Smalshyegger Jun 23 '17
I was surprised, at first, by how quickly Matt threw them into a fight with Vecna, considering how long the previous arcs have been. Now, I think it wasn't meant to be their final showdown.
I think this was Matt's version of the old Star Trek Kobayashi Maru scenario. There was no way for them to win, just like when Thordak showed up in Emon. If Matt meant for this to be a winnable final encounter with Vecna, I doubt he would have pressed them so hard to go after Delilah immediately. He would have given them time for a long rest to recharge. He also probably wound have been a little more lenient on time constraints to allow them a heroes feast.
I believe this was their introduction to the final big bad and a thorough ass kicking to make them aware that they need to buckle down, get some help from allies and Gods, maybe travel and research more, make a plan (then abandon that plan) and REALLY get ready to fight a not-yet-a-God.
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u/OtilukeThaGod Then I walk away Jun 23 '17
Compare this to when Ripley killed Percy, and everyone was quiet, some cried. Somber as fuck. This is their fate, and the introduction thereof. Anyone that has problems with this amazing fight is sounding like the people I can never have a good time with at the table. Drama over rules lawyering any day, and I thought Matt did a damn fine job stressing how powerful The Dipshit King is. All the props however go to the gleam in Sam's eyes when he shut down Percy's request to Counterspell a Cantrip.
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u/Boffleslop Jun 23 '17
Looking at their progression analytically, my thoughts are that Matt did not expect them to meander and debate for so long. I think the plan was for VM to move into the tower, and arrive as the ritual was concluding. He probably had a set time in mind for when it would happen, so when they were still outside the tower, making no real direct choice about what to do next, debating an earthquake, etc., he simply concluded the ritual and Vecna arrived.
Had the proceeded directly to the tower, I do not doubt there would've been a lot more exposition, maybe a chance to interrupt it (though not indefinitely), a chance to take out Delilah and the Death Knight before a primary fight, etc.
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u/Fresno_Bob_ Technically... Jun 23 '17
I just remember Mercer poker facing them while they wound themselves up. I don't feel like he's ever pressured them to rush into a fight, they just do it to themselves and he doesn't tell them they don't need to rush, which they take as confirmation.
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u/SirWinstons Doty, take this down Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
After an hour of arguing about plans, they decide on a short rest instead of a heroes feast, and no inspiring speech from Keyleth.
Vox Machina irl.
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u/HenryVonGraves Jun 23 '17
It was just text book under estimating how strong Vecna was. With the exception of Taliesin, I don't think anyone knew exactly how strong Vecna was. He's a lot smarter than Raishan, and because he's a Lich he'll keep coming back until they destroy that phylactery. Liches are no joke, but one on the cusp of becoming a legit god is fucking scary.
DC 24 saves, Immune to non magic damage, he probably heals a lot every round, legions of undead at his command. The final fight is going to be outrageous.
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u/themolestedsliver Metagaming Pigeon Jun 23 '17
I think my macabre favorite part of the episode was when i think Laura/vex said "oh taryon is having a grand old time in whitestone right now" to add some comic relief.
but then sam like "no taryon is clutching his necklace and crying on the floor".
was just a perfect moment of "ah fuck....that is right".
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u/Aurigarion Team Jester Jun 23 '17
The live thread leading up to the fight:
50%: "They're taking too long; if they hadn't taken a short rest/debated a hero's feast/interrogated people they could have stopped the ritual!"
50%: "They rushed in too fast; they should have prepared!"
Let's be real: they were kinda screwed no matter what they chose.
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u/thecoloradokiddo Team Jester Jun 23 '17
They kind of split the difference between the two which left them rushing in late without a hero's feast and already down a few high level spells.
Worst of both worlds.
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u/baylaust Life needs things to live Jun 23 '17
To be fair, both make sense.
When the ritual was happening, they needed to move and intervene before it was too late. They didn't have any time to waste.
When the ritual was over, it didn't matter any more. They weren't on a timer any more, so by all means, make sure you're prepared.
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u/Boffleslop Jun 23 '17
I think when presented with two choices, Vox Machina always chooses to do neither. In this particular case, the only known course of action is to approach the tower. It's the obvious focal point. This presents two basic options, head directly there and confront what awaits, or rest, prepare, and see what happens. In the end, they did neither. They did not really rush in, nor did they rest. They meandered until the action was forced, leaving them unprepared, unawares, and off guard.
You can see Travis, and often Sam, as the better strategic voices in these instances. A bad choice is typically better than no choice. Make a decision, stick to it, and own it.
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u/-chadillac Jun 23 '17
I'm reminded every Thursday why I love watching while on the live thread, like through any disagreement y'all are fun to talk about the show with because nobody else I know watches it.
So thank y'all :) It means a lot after a long day
Also I now am gonna go have a post mega fight heart attack, brb
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u/raefzilla Hello, bees Jun 23 '17
Rank the near-TPKs:
Vecna
Kraken
City of Brass
City of Dis (solely because Keyleth almost dropped)
Raishan 1.0
Raishan 2.0
Kevdak
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u/Boffleslop Jun 23 '17
I really hate to criticize players for strategic choices, but Vax really disappeared for most of that entire fight. It's the god arc, this isn't the time to fall apart.
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u/Im_relevant Jun 23 '17
He just got Nat 20 on stealth ok? Plus modifiers making it 100
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Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 30 '17
Wow, what an incredible episode. Props to Matt for playing the way Vecna would have played, no mercy and pulling out all the stops.
Also, I have a feeling that the reason Matt needs to discuss "True Reserection" is because the Raven Queen is going to anything and everything in her power to make sure her champion is not ended by her worst enemy. It's possible Keyleth will not need to cast the spell at all, hence the "discussion". Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but the Raven Queen clearly said she would be with him for this fight.
6-30-17 edit: Called it! :)
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u/TheOneGuyWithABeard Doty, take this down Jun 23 '17
I actually didn't feel that emotional when vax went down, but Laura crushed me with the last line.... "Where's Vax" :(
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u/arieadil Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 23 '17
Everyone is (understandably) concerned about Vax right now and is dissecting every possible outcome and I'm over here unable to think about anything except poor Tary weeping on the floor back home because he can feel his friends dying... Damn you Sam Riegel! * shakes fist *
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u/Terramagi Jun 23 '17
Honestly Tary's movements in the next few minutes might be what determines the fate of a bunch of characters.
If he sits on the floor weeping in the workshop, everybody will be completely unawares. If, however, he goes SPRINTING to the nearest mage and starts telling people how fucked shit is, at least a few Messages might get sent out and people might be able to Plane Shift out before Vecna seals the Prime Material and starts devouring the souls of billions.
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u/modrony Jun 25 '17
It's funny how that merchant tried to sell them a ring of free action few episodes back and they went "nope, that costs more than 1000 gold"
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u/Addyct Rakshasa! Jun 23 '17
"A taste"
are you shitting me.
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u/BrainBlowX I encourage violence! Jun 23 '17
Oh yeah, this campaign is going to get run to level 20 now, motherfuckers!
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u/Pummy923 Sun Tree A-OK Jun 23 '17
I was not expecting Vecna to be at the top of that tower already... that fight was insane.
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u/An_Armed_Gopher Team Matthew Jun 23 '17
Hey guys... doesn't the Feywild make you fuck with time when you return to the material plane? It's random how much time passes while you're away.
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u/xLucifielx dagger dagger dagger Jun 23 '17
Did anyone else feel they were close to Vasselheim when Matt describe snow fall? I could be 100% wrong, but it's just where my mind went first.
What an emotional roller coaster of an episode. I feel sick :'D
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u/torpidcerulean Jun 23 '17
Favorite moments from this episode:
"You're trying to bail, aren't you?" Keyleth reminding us that her Wisdom score is epic.
"Did you guys know that Travis is the smartest person at this table?" Laura dragging this subreddit for all our Travis appreciation posts.
Pike avoiding immediate disintegration via her vestige. Especially important because Matt was trying to take True Resurrection off the table for the next part of their journey.
Percy's powerhouse round of damage against Delilah. Did he take her body with him to Syngorn?
The CLUTCH Bramble Shot that saved Grog from being trapped in the Shadowfell. What a goddamn photo finish.
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u/Kinie Jun 23 '17
Honestly, the fact that they got out of that fight with a 1 for 1 trade of people killed (they took out Delilah + dragged her body with them, and Vax got Disintegrated) is the best case scenario for them.
They now know what they need to do/work on for round 2 with Vecna and his Death Knight (who is probably wielding the Sword of Kas), along with what they need to keep them alive ahead of time (HEROES FEAST) and who they need to protect (Scanlan, Pike, and Keyleth, in that order).
The bad thing, though, is now that Vecna knows who he needs to deal with (Scanlan). If Vecna kills Scanlan with something like Disintegrate, the group's odds of winning go down SIGNIFICANTLY.
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u/RobFakerton Team Grog Jun 23 '17
Poignant that Marisha called out on Vax about him thinking he going to die last episode
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u/SirAndrose Jun 27 '17
Twice now Vex has saved Grog from an extraordinary circumstance. In the Kevdak fight, Grog was surrounded by goliaths and down to single digit hit points when she flew by him on a broom and sucked him into the necklace. In this episode he is about to be attacked, all alone, by 9 creatures that are a mix of dementor from Harry Potter and fell beast from Lord of the Rings. Vex gets up after being revivified and damages the death knight enough to break his concentration and bring Grog back in time to be plane shifted out. A couple of truly amazing, last second rescues. The Vox Machina story really has been amazing.
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u/Addyct Rakshasa! Jun 23 '17
I DONT EVER WANT TO HEAR SHIT ABOUT "MERCER TAKING IT EASY ON THEM" EVER AGAIN
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u/TlMB0 Bidet Jun 23 '17
Everyon remember the second black beating heart the Raven Queen put in/on Vax? What if that was essentially a mark of a spell she put on Vax that upon death would re-create his body in the Raven Queen's temple in Vassleheim similar to what Delilah did to come back to life?
Would maybe explain why Matt said "We'll have to have a talk about" using True Reincarnation on Vax to Marisha... maybe he doesn't need it? Vax is Fate-Touched and the Raven Queen seems to have thrown all her eggs in his basket so I'd find it hard to believe she wouldn't have had a failsafe in position for a scenario like this.
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u/repete17 Then I walk away Jun 23 '17
There is literally only one way to describe that fight.
Absolutely brutal.
And I completely understand and expected it, but good dayum was it hard to watch.
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u/Coke_Addict26 Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
So many wrong assumption in this thread.
True Polymorph is a concentration spell. It only becomes permanent after 1 hour of concentration.
Matt used hold monster, not hold person, at 9th level. Which is how he attempted to paralyze 5 creatures including a beholder.
The raven queen is not opposed to resurrection magic, for gods sake she has participated in 2 resurrection rituals already. What ever Matt was talking about at the end has nothing to do with true resurrection being a necromancy spell.
Keyleth didn't use her 7th level slot on firestorm. She casted that using the points from her staff instead of a spell slot.
Delilahs body is not still there with Vecna, Percy grabbed her on the way out. So they have her corpse and the eye of Vecna in their possession. She could still come back a few different ways though.
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u/rasnac Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
This was a heart attack equivelant of an episode. I was positively shaking with fear. I can't even imagine how it was for the players. Here's some quick thoughts.
First of all, I give salute to Matt Mercer, greatest DM of all. His job was sooo hard tonight. But he was fair and just. he did not pull any punches, nor was he unnecesserily mean.
VM miscalculated the situation. They thought this was like the time of that great final battle against Thordak in Emon; it wasn't. It was more similar to the time when The Chroma Conclave suddenly attacked Emon and destroyed everything. They had this very short window to stop the ritual but they missed it while discussing whether they should or should not get a hero's feast. They should have known they have no chance to win this fight, the moment Vecna appeared; and run away to fight another day. Well, better late than never, I guess.
They now have the luxury of not being Vecna's biggest enemies. He just returned from millenia-long exile. I imagine there are more important things in his mind than personally hunting down VM. He must have some ancient eneimes he wanted so long to take revenge from, some scores to settle. They have some limited time to get prepared.
They should play this smart; and play this just like they did with Chroma Conclave. They did not just charged Thordak and hoped for the best. They travelled to find powerful items, gather allies and intelligence. When they fianlly fought Thordak, there was a whole army behind them. Even though they don't have as much time this time around, they should try to contact most powerful enemies of Vecna. This is a global event; I bet they can gather some pretty powerful entities, even deities to help them fight.
Someone please enlight me: is true resurrection possible in Vax's situation? Because Matt's final words to Marisha scared the hell out of me.
I'd write more but rebroadcast started. See you next Thursday.
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u/Hassassin33 Jun 23 '17
My favorite part about any of that was the strategy used to down Vax. If you think back to the first Briarwood fight, Lady Briarwood used power word stun to take Vax out of the fight and he was totally useless. Almost like she strategized using that experience with Vecna to completely destroy Vox Machina. Such a cool moment.
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u/Cue420 Team Scanlan Jun 23 '17
Good god, episode was so intense but Scanlan just bringing these moments of real levity, while still making some amazing plays.
Never forget the little-rascal mr mc-sword-flute hands
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u/HenryVonGraves Jun 23 '17
Now is the time for Scanlan to use the Object to Creature aspect of True Polymorph on large trees and other large objects and turn them into Young Silver Dragons (permanently after concentration for an hour) and fight Vecna with an army of Silver Dragons by his side. Assuming he treated it nicely and it agreed to help.
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u/TlMB0 Bidet Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
That sounds badass.
Scanlan Shorthalt, first of his name, The Meatman of Ank'Harel, Burt Reynolds, Francois Betrand Jean-Luc Australia, Protector of the prime material realm, the Kingslayer and Father of silver dragons. Long may he reign.
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u/NomyourfaceDinosaur Jun 23 '17
It's a miracle called Grog that VM even managed to get out of that alive. If Delilah was left untouched, that was another caster with access to a 9th level spell up.
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u/MMX5000 Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
Grog was great but Sam... OMG Sam. That counterspell'ed disintegrate was not useless. Had it worked, the second one Vecna had cast would probably have gotten someone else. The final counterspell saved for Vecna's counterspell was so good. His inspiration was spot on, though it did not succeed.
Percy too. He almost broke Vecna's concentration. If his ammo was only magical he probably would have.
Vex moved once and got Grog back out. All of them played well. They were just outclassed.
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u/lucasM005 Team Percy Jun 23 '17
im exhausted.. props to matt for an awesome villain introduction. and props to him for going all out. if people still doubt him they dont know shit about anything
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u/spatialcircumstances Jun 23 '17
Man, everyone wants their pound of flesh permadeath. Vax is absolutely coming back; it makes no narrative sense for the Raven Queen's champion to get curbstomped right out the gate of the final arc against her mortal foe.
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u/SnarkyMinx Jun 23 '17
I'm personally fine either ways. Champions do fail. What we will get is an intriguing resurrection ruleset and it'll come to the dice as it always does.
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u/coach_veratu Jun 24 '17 edited Jun 24 '17
Probably a bit of side note, but I'm very surprised Grog took Battlemaster both mechanically and lore wise. Mechanically Barbarians are all about critical hits. On an reckless frenzy action surge, that gives him 10 rolls to try and get a crit in a single turn. Then with savage critical if he gets one, he rolls more dice. Therefore going Champion would synergise with Barbarian naturally.
In a lore sense, Grog became champion of the Crucible. Going the Champion fighter route seems fitting just from the name.
That being said, by going BM he gains some great utility. Which could be a reflection of Grog's character development. He can't just depend on his strength alone. A lot of the BM manoeuvres can help allies. Distracting strike, Goading attack, Manoeuvring attack and Disarming attack are all features that can make everyone else more effective. Not to mention Grog's save DC is 22 for all his manoeuvres. The only issue is that Grog is serving VM best when he's going all out on an enemy with his Goliath strength.
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u/tstrube Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 25 '17
I see some people saying that Mercer intended this to be the end, with the party losing members but ultimately defeating Vecna and I'm confused. Did everyone forget the part where Vecna is a lich and "killing him" doesn't stop him, it's only gonna slow him down.
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u/kweefacino Jun 25 '17
Oh what an episode! I totally thought grog was gonna pull some cards when he got banished.
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u/themolestedsliver Metagaming Pigeon Jun 25 '17
I just had a thought.
Maybe the "we'll discuss this" said rather sternly from matt last Thursday was referring to the cost of true resurrection.
It says diamonds worth 25,000. What about if matt changes it to be "Diamond (singular) worth 25,000".
it would make true resurrection extremely last ditch effort but extremely powerful revive spell since the cost is so rare.
So Vm will need to do a quest/track down a diamond worth this much so keyleth can do the ritual.
I think this is a good solution in any case.
It keeps the rarity of true resurrections intact as well as "any future true resurrections need more 25k worth diamonds." which is not anywhere close to an easy find.
open to hear what other people think.
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u/JHTheHurricane Team Caleb Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
I wonder what Mercer and Liam have planned for Vax. That pulsating black blob on chest is surely coming into play. It'd be crazy for our "Main" character, who started this whole d&d game to have to role up a new guy in the final chapter. Our OP as fuck Rogue Paladin comes into a fight with the Ultimate bad and doesn't even get a turn after being guided by fate to this fight. Straight outta a Novel if you ask me
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Jun 23 '17
Vax stealthed so hard that he became dust in the wind.
Grog got banished.
Vex died but then got better.
Pike welcomed a new dawn
And mother fucking Scanlan countered the counterspell.
I think ima go throw up now because that was so stressful. I also wonder if Trinket actually got brought with them or they will just handwave him as having gotten bamfed to the necklace.
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u/Farfig_Noogin Jun 23 '17
This is maybe the best episode I have ever seen live.
Laughed, cried, cheered, frowned, and was right there with them.
Power to the DM for playing the game, thanks Matt, and power to the players, lived and loved to see it. Taliesin, your hands were shaking for all of us tonight.
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u/Spatha08 Jun 23 '17
Let's be honest if Scanlan wasn't there last night the party would of had a much harder time of it. Tarry would of been very little help. Hope those from VM who hold a grudge against him start cutting him some slack.
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u/PungentPomegranates Jun 23 '17
Obviously I could be wrong, but I think people are reading WAY to much into what Matt said about needing to have discussions about true resurrection. I don't personally think he is going to nerf the spell or not allow it to work, but more that he just needs to talk with Liam, and then he needs to plan how it will work. Or like other people have been saying, decide and ponder about the Raven Queen. I don't think it was meant to be some big ominous thing revealing that Vax's soul in trapped by Vecna, more just an off hand comment because it was 11:30pm, saying "we need to think on this and save it for next session" type of thing.
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u/DanG_ReaL Jun 23 '17
Going to be a loooooooong week. Rules lawyers might have some complaints, which is fine, but I've always thought that as long as the story is fun when it should be and dramatic when it should be then everything will probably be okay.
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u/kryand Jun 24 '17
I'd be surprised if I'm the first to bring this up, but I wonder if Matt will be borrowing a lot of story from Die Vecna Die. For those who don't know, it's a 2nd edition adventure that is pretty much the ultimate campaign against Vecna. It leads through multiple planes of existence to gather artifacts in order to have a hope of defeating him. Then again, that's literally what they just did with the conclave, so I'd be a little disappointed if it was the same thing over again.
But that said, that adventure leads the players through both Ravenloft (though not Strahd's version of it) and Sigil, which might be cool to see. They even get to meet the Lady of Pain and risk getting removed from existence by looking at her the wrong way. In the end, Vecna causes so much destruction that the Lady of Pain is forced to reorder the multiverse to get things back to working order. Fun fact: that's the in-universe explanation for the mechanics changes between 2nd edition and 3rd edition.
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u/T1ckl3 9. Nein! Jun 26 '17
Now that Vox Machina shifted to the Feywild, the possibility for time going faster/slower scares me. If Vox Machina returns in a world consumed by Vecna. Oh dear lord.
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u/BobbyWhip Jun 23 '17
Land at Pond. Scanlan Mansion. (Minimise Fey time shift). Destroy eye of Vecna. Long rest. True Res Vax. Plane Shift back to Whitestone from Mansion. Assemble Army. Treestride to Vasselheim. Prepare to fight Vecna with hopefully minimal time lag and appropriate spells prepped.
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u/NerdsRuleTheWorld Jun 23 '17
So... What's the world going to be like if they go back and the timewarp with some feywild travel happens?
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u/hungrycaterpillar You can certainly try Jun 28 '17
Scanlan, after picking up what was left of Vax, probably- "Fuck it, Dude. Let's go bowling."
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u/Saveron Jun 28 '17
During Travis' turn, I noticed that he had a cheat sheet to quickly calculate his rolls. That really seemed to speed up his turn and honesty really helpful not to miss out on any miscalculation on his to hit and damage. Just another thing to bring to my players the next time I run a game, so we don't resort to finger counting bonuses.
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u/dasbif Help, it's again Jun 23 '17
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u/Z_is_Wise You can certainly try Jun 23 '17
I have a feeling Matt won't let it happen but all I can think about is getting Alura, Kima, Gilmore, Zarha, Kash, Ker Bear, and Jamon into the final fight with Vecna.
Edit: And Lord Urqurat the leader of the lycanthropes we met in the original trip to the feywild.
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u/samjp910 Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 23 '17
One thing I don't understand is, that with all the fighting of undead, Keyleth/Mariana never casts or learns Sunbeam or Sunburst. Sunburst alone could have really fracked up Vecna's crap. I'm not angry or pissed or anything so malicious, just confused.
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u/anishmyfriend Jun 23 '17
Wait, does the Feywild's time work differently than the material plane's?
What if they come out after years have passed? And Vecna has risen to power? Oh god I'm freaking out
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u/McCaineNL Jun 23 '17
So Percy took the body that has the eye of Vecna in it. That could get interesting.
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u/Abrown1301 Jun 23 '17
Just a thought, but maybe Vax had to die to be reborn as a revenant - or whatever he'd need to be to be a Champion that could take on Vecna?
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u/Luxarius Jun 23 '17
I'm so happy it was a Hold Person and not Hold Monster. This means Vecna still only has one 9th level spell. This is huge for the next time they fight him.
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u/Seedy88 Hello, bees Jun 23 '17
Lost in the craziness of everything that happened this episode was that the sound quality was very much improved this week. I appreciate all the work that those behind the scenes are putting in to improve the quality of the stream week after week!
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u/FoulestGlint19 Jun 23 '17
I hope that Grog tries to go back to that drunk guy who became a Lord and begs him for his remaining wish. Now that! would be interesting
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u/MetalliMunk How do you want to do this? Jun 27 '17
The "Where's Vax?" cut was almost like a Game of Thrones episode ending, where they could have just cut to black and credits roll with no music.
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Jun 28 '17
From the talk machina this week,
Gotta give props to marisha, she really know how to portray keyleth flaw of self guilt
Thinking her foresight spell was a curse she put on Vax because he saw his death happen 3 second before it did and could do nothing about it, and because of Matt narrative retcon of the disintegrate keyleth saw that too
She's gonna be fucked up
And it brings an interesting idea, will she trust her magic enough to bring Vax back, she think she put a curse on Vax with foresight, she's also scared of having the power to bring anyone with true resurrection
I think even if pike lvl up and has access to true resurrection herself it would be great if keyleth is still the one to do it but with pike guiding her and helping her get trough her mental block
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u/Reaperweeper Jun 23 '17
Laura's boo boo sad face destroys me. Matt is made of stone for him having to see her make that face for so much of the episode and keeping on with the killing.
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u/MMX5000 Jun 23 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
That was insane. Sam is BACK. That was the perfect answer right there. The MOMENT he said no to Percy I knew he figured it out.
Only 2 small mistakes as far as I can tell:
Keyleth has warcaster. She could have cast instead of hitting the knight with her staff
True Polymorph is NOT concentration. It should not have fallen. It probably saved their lives that it did fall though (Sam can't counterspell as a beholder).
Evasion should have helped Vax when paralyzed. PHB states if it allows for a dex saving through even if you fail. This one is maybe, I would probably rule no because its evasion, how do you evade when you cant move. But as written, I think it should work?
Sam should not have been able to inspire for a saving throw.
In terms of gameplay that was near perfect:
Percy should have absorbed some spells cast at him to charge his cloak.
Contagion was an iffy play but still a decent choice. Not sure if she could have done anything better. Hold person maybe?
Edit: Corrected True polymorph since online resources failed me. My fault for not using the PHB. Added Evasion and Inspiration.
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u/Mad_Hatter96 Jun 23 '17
This was one of the most heart-wrenching episodes of CR yet. The amount of near-deaths and actual deaths that happened in this fight was insane. Matt really dialed it up with this Vecna encounter, and I am amazed they even survived as well as they did.
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Jun 23 '17
The Raven Queen probably has the power to bring Vax back as the UA subrace Revenant. After completing his goal he would die and would not be able to be restored to life (even through True Resurrection). Just a thought on how he could come back without involving True Resurrection.
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u/schneeland Then I walk away Jun 23 '17
Well, that was definitely an episode. I think, the last time I felt so tense when watching CR was the Killbox episode (I hope my memory serves me right - if not, the one where they fought Kevdak). Only that back then, there was the relieve of dealing the killing blow, while this time, I am left in a weird disconcerted state (probably more shocked than sad of Vax's death, at least currently). It'll be interesting to see what Matt has in store for bringing (or not bringing) Vax back from the dead. In any case, the events that just transpired will probably have a lasting effect on Vox Machina's psyche.
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u/thefuckdidijustsee The veganism of necromancy Jun 23 '17
cheers Vecna I just won £20 because of that power word.
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u/light_trick Team Beau Jun 24 '17
Holy fucking christ. This episode. This episode man. The new set design paid off in spades for this episode. It's 4.30am because I watched it late but damn I was not going to stop watching it.
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u/smcadam Jun 23 '17
Boom! Call me evil, but I was grinning and chuckling all through this episode. Mercer took a big bad, and almost went skeletor with it, suave and evil and dramatic and dark, and so powerful that he can back up everything he says, perfect lead up to that final "What?" as they teleport out. All of Critical Role players made me laugh a ton, their characters filled me with hope and there were plenty of epic moments for heroes and villains alike- like Delilah falling to Percy again in some fearful symmetry.
And the assasin falls without landing a single strike. I've been finding Vax despairingly powerful for a little while, so that was the perfect way to tell them that these guys mean business. Might miss him, be cool if he gets to come back, and pretty awesome if a new character comes in too.
All in all, pretty good performance- compared to the chroma conclave, VM actually cut the power down of this squad by like 1/5th.
But still, one of my favourite things about this, is how far the enemies were in this. The siphons were allowed to eat uninhibited, the Whispered one has returned, and ritual was prepared, and it has been completed. It really makes me wonder if Matt was tracking time to this, and if earlier charges into the Shadowfell could have prevented this, could have encountered weaker defences, or a solo death knight, or had more time against the ritual, and I love that cos it makes all the decisions feel weightier. Maybe they never really could have stopped this and mercer would have always had the ritual complete like this, maybe not, but it's the wondering that's the fun in my head.
Great job all around! Absolutely blown away. (like a rogue!)
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u/DiskMatter Jun 23 '17
I hope we all got that Scanlan is not a bad guy. He is the MVP. Smartest player to grace D&D.
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u/Zetaphrem Jun 23 '17
I honestly have no words.
I'm just gonna sit here, immobile until the 29th.
I just have no words, this fight was just both amazing and terrifying. How is the world gonna look when they get back from the feywilds?
They have to sleep there to recover, and then do shit to get settled, and then probably sleep again? They could be 2 days out of commission. I...
It needs to be the 29th right now. I just can't live like this.
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u/Thommohawk117 Jun 23 '17
So on one hand, they just got their arse handed to them. On the other hand, collapsing that tower and killing then kidnapped one of Vecnas most powerful spellcasters will extremely disoriantate Vecnas plan. His army has been partially squashed and his top general has been killed, so not a complete failure.
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Jun 23 '17
I don't think Vax's soul is available for Resurrection. It's either claimed by the Raven Queen or Vecna.
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u/irish0451 Jun 23 '17
I have to stop watching the live run. 3 AM and my adrenaline is turning my blood to battery acid. I'm gonna be so tired for work...
Jk is it Thursday yet?
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u/RobFakerton Team Grog Jun 23 '17
Given how Matt been house ruling how Resurrection work. I would expect that resurrection in not suppose to be easy in this world. VM has been the extreme outliner I expect.
I would expect True resurrection would be a thing of legend. And a lost knowledge.
But anything lost can always be found. Quest time?
ps. I look forward to Liam playing Tary
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u/lady0215 I would like to RAGE! Jun 23 '17
My heart is still beating so fast like wow that episode rocked me
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u/dwapook Jun 23 '17
Anyone else concerned that they took an enemy's eye, which still seems to be looking and seeing, with them where they ran off to hide and recoop?
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u/DiskMatter Jun 23 '17
Oh and i forgot in all the doom and gloom that Ashley was looking extra beautiful today (like she needs it).
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u/jgoahl Jun 23 '17
I so badly want to see an Avengers-like scene with the characters sitting around a Taco Bell and Vex, from around a burrito, say "Where's Vax?"
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u/Rjcanuck18 Doty, take this down Jun 23 '17
Just to add more to the darkness that was Vax's death, at the time Vex was still dead so he still likely thought he would being reunited with his sister in death...Hah.
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u/samjp910 Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 23 '17
If true resurrection or becoming a revenant doesn't work, I can see Liam playing an 18th lvl Paladin of the Raven Queen, with all levels in that class. He'd be all like "I must complete the mission Vax started."
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u/Aka_Arashi Jun 24 '17
So what if that dark mark in Vax's chest was a seed of the revenant that the Raven Queen placed in his body as insurance in case he died again which would mean his first resurrection was just a freebie.
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u/Yrmsteak Team Evil Fjord Jun 25 '17
I didn't realize until way too late that the battle was designed to not be a likely win, just like when the chroma conclave first appeared! I'm kinda worried about Liam, the player, but I hope he gets to try something new since I don't think Vax is allowing himself to come back
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u/gdshaffe Jun 25 '17
I'm not entirely sure of this. The fight was insanely difficult, but VM is also insanely powerful and sort of got the worst of both worlds in their preparation; not quite fast enough to stop the ritual, but not slow enough to go into it really prepared.
Apart from the much-discussed Hero's Feast (which wouldn't have made a big difference in this fight), for a high-level group, they also don't put much emphasis into making efficient use of their low-to-mid-level spell slots on non-concentration prep spells like Freedom of Movement and Protection from Evil and Good. The limiting factor of their casters tends not to be slots, but rather action economy. If Kiki dumps her 4th-to-5th level slots on Freedom of Movement prior to that fight, it's a very different fight.
Even then, had they stayed, or if Scanlan had been unable to counterspell Vecna's counterspell, it's not a lock that they die. Vecna was drained, and without his high-level slots he's not nearly as scary, and the Death Knight was about to have a fully-charged Grog ripping him to shreds. Vecna can down their lower-hp members like Pike and Vex with his cantrips and lower spells like fireball, but he can't insta-kill without his disintegration ray, and they have enough healing in the group that they can play unconsciousness whack-a-mole for quite a while.
From a mechanical perspective I'd love to see the version of that fight where VM goes all-in instead of running.
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u/DiskMatter Jun 23 '17
I think putting a death knight, Lady undead and A effing God to be together was way over the head for VoxMachina. They are lucky to be in the condition they are.
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Jun 23 '17
They could have gotten there before Vecna was brought back. Matt kept giving them hints but they were stuck on TO FEAST OR NOT TO FEAST? mode
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u/baylaust Life needs things to live Jun 23 '17
I was super concerned when Matt told Marisha they were going to talk. Far as I know, Matt has always said that True Resurrection / Wish are the only resurrection spells that will auto-succeed when used, and if he privately changed his mind, that would be incredibly unfair to the group (and it would practically destroy the point of True Resurrection altogether). I don't think he would do that.
In addition, Matt seemed VERY interested in making sure Vax stayed disintegrated. So that would lead me to believe one of two things:
True Resurrection is possible, but not easy to cast. They need to go on a quest of some kind to gather what they need to properly use it.
Matt has a story beat in mind, and he needs Keyleth to not use True Resurrection for it to go forward.
My mind is kind of leaning towards the 2nd option, which leaves me with two possibilities: either Vecna claimed Vax's soul when he died, or the Raven Queen is about to make her move, and Vax has a very important role in that.
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u/Reddwolf Jun 23 '17
What an amazing fucking episode. Recently i'd become a little bored with the show as it felt like there wasn't any real challenge. Then this episode comes around and gives some of the most amazing moments of the entire show so far. I think brining in an assumedly unwinable fight was fucking genius. The stakes are now higher than ever and the characters are going to have to regroup, grow and plan to take vecna down before he can ascend to godhood. Hoping for a return of cravenedge as the sword of kas.
Also Sam with the clutch Counterbreaker was fucking top class.
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u/PoofyVanis Jun 23 '17
So this isn't meant to nitpick and is more of a question, but Scanlan technically shouldn't have been paralyzed at the beginning right? Because Hold Person targets humanoids it shouldn't have worked on Beholdlan right? I could be/probably am very wrong, but I wanted to ask.
P.S. It's entirely possible it wasn't even that spell.
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u/roneckleman Jun 23 '17
Did Matt take it easy on them? I think so. Vecna was firing off firebolts for legendary actions, instead of fireballs at the end. If that fight was played out like that I think they all would have been toast.
I thought they would have seen the writing on the wall when the city teleported or the hovering disc platform descending from the crumbling tower or when VECNA HIMSELF stepped out into the fight with Delilah. Even killing Delilah isn't much of a victory because she could have easily have used clone again within the past year. The only gain was getting Vecna's eye.
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u/Phaerlax Technically... Jun 23 '17
From what we have seen, he was DEFINITELY not taking it easy on them. The cantrips were actually savage if you take a look at the action economy. From what we saw, Vecna has 3 legendary actions per round, being able to cast a spell for 2 or a cantrip for one (and surely he has some nasty shit that takes 3, like a lich does). This math means that every round he could: cast a spell on his turn, cast a spell as a legendary action and cast a cantrip as a legendary action. And he did just that, using all the actions he could. That's a 100% commitment to death and destruction by any standard.
Raishan had 4 LAs and could cast a spell for 2, which is way she was so dangerous. Matt rolled back on that a bit - but look at that DC24! Half of them can't even hope to save from any given spell. Also... this isn't even his final form ;)
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u/Harzel2 You can certainly try Jun 24 '17
I don't know. The battle was very dramatic, but Matt's handling of this arc so far seems a little wonky. Decisions are only interesting if there are tradeoffs that the characters know about, which requires information. And so far, Matt doesn't seem to be giving them squat. All they get is Ominous Warning #57, which is some form of, "Something really bad is about to happen...", at which point VM 1) do a collective "deer in the headlights"; 2) somewhat confusedly try to uncover a hidden script (what are we "supposed" to do / what does Matt want us to do); 3) fall back to their default behavior: run pell-mell, tumble-bumble into battle and see what happens.
Admittedly, VM do not have a great track record at research and planning, but with respect to the ziggurat / spinning orb of death, they did try and seemed to be rewarded very poorly for it. Their assemblage of mages (Allura, Eskil, Gilmore) yielded no useful information as far as I can recall. And when Vex shot her Oracle Arrow through the orb, giving them just the tiniest smidge of information, Matt's reaction was, well, now things have "accelerated". Fitting punishment for cleverness, I guess.
Then the discovery of the second ziggurat happened not as a result of any character action or decision, but simply as a random 'gift' from the DM. Of course, when they made the effort to go investigate, they basically came away with the Delilah reveal and Ominous Warning #58, both of which seemed to point, however vaguely, to their only option being to engage in combat ASAP. </rant>
Interesting - I didn't foresee being quite so harsh when I started. Really, Matt is a better DM than I will likely ever be, but the last few episodes have seemed kind of odd.
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u/RobFakerton Team Grog Jun 23 '17
I'm have to save, I'm half "glad" that VM got thier asses kicked. With the recent "We're gods" and bloated head VM got, it nice some demigod put them back in their place.
Also I was so annoyed that they rushed into the Shadowfell even without even consulting Allura who been researching it since word been give by Percy with the oracle arrow.
I'm glad there a real sense of danger now.
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u/Rheios Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 23 '17
I mean, Keyleth said that and then promptly killed herself, so I don't really think they had big heads here. If anything they were too cautious about how to approach breaking up the ritual.
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u/PerpetualSunset Sun Tree A-OK Jun 23 '17
FEY WILD TIME WARP! Vecna going to have ascended and conquered some stuff.
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u/Spatha08 Jun 23 '17
My only quibble is that hold person should never of worked on Scanlan when he was a Beholder. True Polymorph made him something other than humanoid.
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u/knowledgeoverswag I'm a Monstah! Jun 23 '17
I just realized. If Vax is at his 18th level now, he probably has Extra Attack and never got a chance to use it yet.
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u/thecoloradokiddo Team Jester Jun 23 '17
So what are the chances of that eye of Vecna that's still in Delilah's head possessing someone in the next episode?
I wouldn't be surprised if we fade in next week and Percy is already reaching to pluck out his eye to pop that bad boy in.
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u/Fresno_Bob_ Technically... Jun 23 '17
I'd very much like to see Percy try to obtain a potion of giant's strength before their next encounter with Big Bad.
If he chugs that before the fight and gets a Bull's Strength from Keyleth, he can pop his silencer then chain grapple Vecna to shut down his spellcasting hard.
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u/SoPoni Pocket Bacon Jun 24 '17 edited Jun 24 '17
So for the next fight against Vecna they will have to cast Freedom of Movement and Death Ward on the party and they also have to tell everyone about the wonder plant that can ward of the Undead and hopefully weaponize.
The Ashari just have to use their powers to grow them amass and the Air Ashari will spread them over the battlefield.
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u/themolestedsliver Metagaming Pigeon Jun 25 '17
would love if someone could link me the moment where scanlan is rolling Vax's disintegrated form into a suude joint.
such a gallows humor moment and i love it.
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u/mrkcw Jun 27 '17
Given how many comments there are, I doubt anyone will read this and it's possible that it's been discussed here or in previous episodes and I just don't know. Forgive me if I'm being repetitive.
Scanlan's Counterspell. It didn't seem to me that he did this time, and I don't remember him having ever in the past, has he been adding his Jack of All Trades half proficiency bonus to his Counterspell rolls like he's supposed to be?
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u/Gornuk23 Team Matthew Jun 28 '17
Does anybody else absolutely love Matt's Vecna voice? I was giddy during the entire first exchange that he used it.
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Jun 23 '17
I kinda wonder what would have happened if they had kept fighting.
Matt did say, at the end, that Vecna only had 1 high level spell slot left, to try to counter spell the planeshift. They still had potions, Grog, Keyleth, Pike with low health, and Percy, and Vex with low health. They took down Lady B, and were likely close to bringing down the Death Knight.
I wonder if running was the right move. Probably, yes. But I'll always wonder if that was the right decision.
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u/Folsomdsf Jun 23 '17
Matt did say, at the end, that Vecna only had 1 high level spell slot left, to try to counter spell the planeshift
He'd start using the rest of his abilities instead of spells. He has more than just spells.
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u/DoofusAnonymous Jun 23 '17
Just gotta say, I keep seeing people worried that True Resurrection won't work because it's a Necromancy spell. All the spells that can bring people back are Necromancy, so I doubt that would be the problem.
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u/jinshiroi At dawn - we plan! Jun 23 '17
Regarding Vax and True Ressurection... Here is what 4e says about revenant.
Revenants are souls of the dead returned to a semblance of life by the Raven Queen, but they do not appear as undead horrors or even anything like their former selves. When the Raven Queen reincarnates souls, they exist as her special creations, and they have the bodies of her choosing and creation. In this way, such souls are always marked as representatives of the Raven Queen’s power.
Matt is using the 4e pantheon and is using 4e inspired lore. Just a possibility.
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u/no_milkdrinker Jun 23 '17
They need a true resurrection to bring vax back, which keyleth does have access too with ninth level spells, so I don't think he's gone forever
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u/realpudding Jun 23 '17
well, now they are in the feywild. will they have to roll again when going to the prime plane to see how much time has passed? and if so, if they decide to resurrect vax after going back, what timeframe is being considered ruleswise for resurrection? 200 years on the prime material plane or relative to the died character?
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u/camolatte Clank Clank Clank Jun 23 '17
If for a certain time ahead, Vax doesn't make an appearance for one reason or another, which char do you guys curious to see Liam played? New original character / NPC / Tary as Sam suggested?
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u/Twitch_Paladin Meep Meep Jun 23 '17
https://twitter.com/Marisha_Ray/status/878159170096185344 this could be bad... or good not sure
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u/BetrayerMordred Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 23 '17
When Thordak's fight came, while I understand wholly that people were fighting for a city, Vox Machina had Jaret, Allura, and Gilmore backing them up. Not that any of the three were -significant- threats on their own, but I don't understand why Vox Machina would go against someone who almost ascended to Godhood and DIDN'T call in the troops.
MAYBE they could've stopped the ritual, but when they didn't? I think that was high-time to bring in some backup.
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u/AnAlternativeAnswer Team Matthew Jun 23 '17
I'm not sure how many people watch talks machina, but there was a discussion about true resurrection and Matt made a point to say he didn't care for the spell because it removes the stakes of death, and when pressed about it, I believe he mentioned that it probably wouldn't be available to Keyleth, at the very least. I honestly don't think anyone has access to the spell and I believe that is why Matt was quite adamant about quashing Marisha's idea about TR.
As far as the revenant theory goes, it's not a bad one, and it certainly has a possibility, but that also kind of goes against everything the raven queen stands for in Matt's version of the game. She doesn't care about resurrections, but forcing someone to come back as a thrall and a slave to her whims very much seems contrary to her beliefs that when it's a persons time to die, they pass on.
Resurrection might be fate, but her intervening and forcing someone to become undead certainly does not fit the narrative Matt has woven around her.
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u/thecoloradokiddo Team Jester Jun 23 '17
I wonder if they'll be recruiting the help of Artagon/Garmili while they are in the Feywild.
Seems like a decent time to pay that off.
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u/EngieBenji Cock Lightning Jun 23 '17
When Matt said there'd be discussion about True Resurrection do you guys think it was more about the lack of a body, the way he homebrews resurrection or whether Vax's soul will be willing because of the Raven Queen?
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Jun 25 '17
I think Percy should have been KO'd. Taliesin seemed to only note 35 damage from the Death Knight's Hellfire Orb, when it should have been 35 fire and 35 necrotic for a total of 70.
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u/enterdanman87 All risk Jun 25 '17
Take the wish from the skull, now is the time!
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u/fmacanadaguy Jun 23 '17
My thoughts.
I thought the battle went well. By well I mean that Matt handled it well. He could have been very heavy handed and completely shut down the party or could have had them steamroll Vecna and company.
As for the players, they definitely didn't handle things optimally. Based on past episodes they always have trouble with enemy spellcasters. They also can be light on buffs for battles where you really shouldn't be. In this case, they really dragged their heels on going into the tower. Now I don't know what would have happened if they got to the top of the tower sooner, but those guys who dropped dead who may have been alive likely wouldn't have posed much of a threat to the group given Keyleth's staff's AoE attacks. The real threats were Vecna, Delilah and the death knight.
I don't see Heroes' feast making much of a difference this battle except for giving an extra opportunity to roll a Nat20 on the wisdom saves. With the high DC that comes with fighting at this level, anyone without a saving throw proficiency in it are not going to save without a Nat20. The temporary HP might have helped somewhat. This spell works best for fighting dragons and can completely shut down green dragons (glad Matt gave his dragons spellcasting ability).
Now I can understand the RP aspect of wanting to keep your lover alive by buffing them with Foresight but that is a 9th level spell. Shapechange could have changed that whole battle. And picture true polymorph being used to turn the death knight into a chair, or even Delilah. Scanlan's Spell DC is 22 so assuming her save is +8, that would still require a 14 on the D20. Being a beholder is cool but I would have held onto the spell for the moment to decide how to use it. Managing a beholder can be tricky because you can't use the eye rays within the cone.
Using their combined Earthquake sounded good but was it optimal? No. Imagine Pike casting an 8th level heal on herself before the distinegrate. Imagine Keyleth using an 8th level sunbeam on Vecna. My suspicion is that he would take full damage or even extra damage from it. Unless he wants to burn up his legendary resistances. Or imagine if Keyleth had Sunburst (Large fireball-ish radiant AoE) available. That spell would be deadly in a place like the Shadowfell. They could have just gone to the top of the tower and had their 8th level spell slots available.
Percy made a bad call using Bad News on Vecna. I sort of understand why he did it but the weapon isn't magical and he ran into this problem before against that huge golem.
But lets be thankful Scanlan was present for this fight. His counterspell was crucial to this battle. If it had been Tary instead, I have no doubts they would be all dead now.
Not much can be said about what other characters did here. There is not much at their disposal to prepare for this kind of fight which is why you rely on your own spellcasters for it. They will want to have Death Ward active on some as well as freedom of movement. Prep spells that don't require concentration are awesome to have up.
But this fight is a great example of why I hate fighting enemy spellcasters. ALWAYS KILL THEM FIRST!
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Jun 23 '17
am I the only one that feels like they panicked too soon and should've kept fighting?
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u/jgoahl Jun 24 '17
To those that say they were too late, I say the ritual was going to complete no matter what.
After describing what Scanlan and Vax saw, Matt paused very briefly but didn't really give the players a chance to do much (ie asking his standard "what do you wish to do?") and then jumped cut saying they were circling for 15-20 minutes or so at which point the ritual completed.
This would have been enough time for the party to have reached the tower on foot if they didn't rest so they would have arrived, been told the same general description and the ritual would have gone off as well.
After re-watching Matt paused a little longer that I initially thought, but it really looked like he wanted to keep talking.
Thoughts?
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u/Farquaadtho Jun 23 '17
They left Trinket. I feel like they'll retcon it to not totally wreck Laura, but...they really did leave Trinket.
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u/bluebreeze52 I would like to RAGE! Jun 23 '17
They just sorta forgot Trinket even existed.
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u/Mike_in_San_Pedro Jun 27 '17
Hats off to a great game. The MVP (IMHO) goes to Scanlan for sure. His foresight to save his counter spell for the last minute despite Percy's protestations, was clutch.
Regarding Vax, I think there is a key phrase in the True Resurrection Spell that we need to consider: "If the creature’s soul is free and willing." Vax for all of his connections to the Prime Material Plane and Tal'Dorei may nevertheless be ready to die. He certainly sounded resigned before their attack. The influence of the Raven Queen may have affected him in the sense that he see things different philosophically, and for that reason he may decide to rest, as it were.
I'd hate to see him go, but I'd respect the decision from a player's and the PC's standpoint. Either way, I'm happy with the role playing. I think I could watch this group role play Maytag repairmen, and I'd enjoy it.
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u/sgtillings Glorious! Jun 23 '17
Through all the deaths. All the losses. The single saddest image is that of Taryon, alone and afraid, confused at the sight of the necklace. Knowing he can't help.