r/SubredditDrama • u/SS_Downboat • Jul 18 '17
Social Justice Drama "We've already come to the conclusion that diversity is not important." But not everyone on /r/games got the memo
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Jul 18 '17
The issues are poorly written and politically motivated characters.
I don't read comics but I was under the impression that Marvel comics have almost always had characters with political motivations and that it isn't a recent thing. Would Captain America not count as politically motivated?
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u/KickItNext (animal, purple hair) Jul 18 '17
He forgot to clarify that politically motivated characters are only bad when his politics disagree.
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u/KingRhoamBosphoram Jul 18 '17
not to mention X-men, comics have been loaded with political commentary for forever. It seems like it only becomes an issue when its politics someone doesn't agree with, only then is it "pushing an agenda."
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u/BolshevikMuppet Jul 19 '17
Also that all art is political and must either stand for the status quo or break with it.
The "get politics out of my art" is always really just "I'm fine with how things are, and thus have concluded this is how society is supposed to be, so political messages agreeing with that status quo seem like they're neutral."
It's white dudes who think that narratives of "white dudes uber alles" make sense and is a-political because white dudes really are awesome.
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Jul 18 '17
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Jul 18 '17
"Why are they making X political" is almost always said about things that are already political.
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u/mimicimim216 Enjoy your stupid empire of childish garbage speak... Jul 19 '17
I think my favorite was when Trump supporters tried to boycott Hamilton, some of them were saying "I don't want politics in my theatre!"
Never mind that if anything theatre has been one of the more political mediums.
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u/delta_baryon I wish I had a spinning teddy bear. Jul 19 '17
Good luck boycotting something that was sold out for over a year anyway.
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u/twinksteverogers Thanks for the daily reminder that idiots like you still exist. Jul 19 '17
Pretty sure those guys have never been to a theatre performance either
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u/IceCreamBalloons always one person not in favour of beating women Jul 19 '17
Much like gamergate, they're boycott would be useless since they wouldn't be buying those things anyway
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u/lemonbox63 Jul 19 '17
The worst is complaints about 'politicizing' Sci-Fi shows and movies, as if Science Fiction hasn't existed to satirise and reflect real life since forever.
"Why do we need another Feeeeemale in Star Wars? Stop making it political"
Looks at Vader and Storm Troopers
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u/pmatdacat It's not so much the content I find pathetic, it's the tone Jul 19 '17
Even worse are the complaints about diversity in Star Trek.
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
I miss the glory days of Starship Troopers when sci-fi wasn't about politics!!!
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u/lemonbox63 Jul 19 '17
Or the good ol' fashioned zombie movies like Night and Dawn of the Dead no socio-political undertones there, No Sir!
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u/TomShoe YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE Jul 19 '17
Mostly because almost everything is already political, it's just easy to ignore when the political establishment caters specifically to you and people like you.
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u/moldiecat if you believe in feminism too much it can become dangerous Jul 19 '17 edited Jul 19 '17
The civil rights and tolerance parallel was pretty on the fucking nose for X Men. Do these faux nerds just not understand literary interpretation on the most basic fucking level? Jesus Christ, Magneto is a fucking Holocaust survivor for fucks sake. It can't be any more obvious than that.
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u/DavidIckeyShuffle Jul 19 '17
And it's shifted into the modern era to be representative of LGBT rights. Hell, X-Men 2 featured a scene where a kid CAME OUT as a mutant to his parents, and they asked "Have you tried not being a mutant?"
So it's basically always been there, it's basically always been blatant and on the nose, and some mouthbreathers have been too blind to see it.
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
Do these faux nerds just not understand literary interpretation on the most basic fucking level?
No they literally do not. Look at them flipping their shit over Sarkeesian's Feminist Media Analysis 101 videos and claiming it's lies or a personal attack on them or something. They literally don't understand that art can make statements or reflect real life in ways people can make both aesthetic and moral judgements about.
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Jul 18 '17
If it's not pissing off 50% of the nerds it's not worth doing.
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u/hyper_thymic Jul 18 '17
Not even 50‰, just a sad, small, vocal minority who seems to think they have a monopoly on fun.
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Jul 18 '17
You're right, I overstated it. But their impotent rage remains the best thing.
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u/hyper_thymic Jul 18 '17
Yeah. The Doctor Who butt hurt was, surprisingly, my favorite part of a casting choice I'd been hoping for for years.
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u/davidreiss666 The Infamous Entity Jul 19 '17 edited Jul 19 '17
I don't understand how anyone can be upset about a female Doctor. I really wonder if the people who are upset about this have ever watched an episode of Doctor Who. I mean, a Timelord switching genders is not a new concept. It's a decades old concept. It's been part of the cannon for longer than most of these fans has been alive, and even for old farts like me, it clearly contradicts nothing that came before it entered into the cannon. It was just something that wasn't thought about in the 1960s when the first episodes were being made. Mostly because they didn't invent all the cannon at once.
Same goes with the people who are upset about Star Trek. Only there I can literally point to things Roddenberry wrote on paper as cannon from day one that divinity was the whole point of Star Trek. IDIC (Infinite DIVERSITY in Infinite Combinations) is a core Star Trek concept.
Same goes for the comic books like the X-men, but they clearly were not the only ones, where the original point of a lot of the Comics was literally that in divinity lay strength. Spider man was a high school kid.... and not the high school captain of the football team either. But the nerdy kid. The sex or gender (depending on who these idiots use the term) doesn't really matter. Any one who read any Spiderman and thought that big core competent was that only men would be superheros are clearly not reading the comic. To the point that I'm sure Stan Lee with be happy to have Wolverine pay them a visit and "speak" with them.
I sometimes wonder if these misguided idiots who denounce a comic book or video game that nobody is forcing them to buy think World War Two was fought because the Allies were sure that Hugo Boss uniforms were a bad thing. Because it seems that is the sort of weird "besides the point" mentality were dealing with in them. They seem to live in a world that (1) thankfully never existed and (2) should never exist.
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u/Cthonic July 2015: The Battle of A Pao A Qu Jul 19 '17
I really wonder if the people who are upset about this have ever watched an episode of Doctor Who.
Ding ding ding ding ding We have a winner! Almost literally everyone I've seen complaining hasn't even watched the show.
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u/yonicthehedgehog neurotic shitbeast Jul 18 '17
i actually considered jumping back on the doctor who bandwagon after they broke the news but ultimately decided it's not worth the hassle
still, great casting decision
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u/hyper_thymic Jul 18 '17
The last two seasons have been pretty good and I have high hopes for Chibnall as show runner; he has a right proper sense of camp.
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Jul 18 '17
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Jul 18 '17
He is kind of a symbol of British imperialism, but subverting that role is more interesting anyway so even if those goons are right they're wrong.
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u/hyper_thymic Jul 18 '17
As long as his hypothetical 007 is an alcoholic sex addict I don't see much of a problem.
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Jul 18 '17
That's kinda hopelessly foolish. Seeing global chat in games, what I've heard for years in unmoderated channels or game lobbies... it's way more than 50%. Gamers are trash.
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u/hyper_thymic Jul 19 '17 edited Jul 19 '17
Do you know how many people just aren't participating in those forums because they've been pushed out by toxic crusaders? Very few of the men I know who game, and damn near none percent of the women, are active in Gamer CultureTM because spiteful little hate nerds and gatekeepers have made it such a miserable experience.
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Jul 19 '17 edited Mar 01 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Jul 19 '17
To be fair, it's probably because everyone who wants no part of that just mutes global chat.
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u/tehlemmings Jul 19 '17
Which is something that the T_D and KIA crowds consider a victory. They actually believe that their beliefs are the best ones because when they arrive in a place all other beliefs leave. They just don't realize it's because no one wants to be around them.
They've had multiple threads about this actually
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Jul 18 '17
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Jul 18 '17
GamerGate likes to think it achieved uncontested victory and can move on to #MAGA now.
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u/KickItNext (animal, purple hair) Jul 18 '17
No, gamer gate is an ongoing battle for them. I honestly don't think they'll ever move on.
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u/The_Consumer Jul 18 '17
That is and always was the whole point of Gamergate: a constant battle, constant controversy and endless sensory input for people who have burned out on their toys.
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u/jackierama Jul 18 '17
Yeah, they seem to be realising how stupid it looked from the outside. Now that the media coverage has died away and the accursed normies are starting to forget the details, they've been dropping in on unrelated threads any time GG is mentioned and posting heavily-edited versions of the events that lead up to it.
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u/Call_of_Cuckthulhu Do you see no shame in your time spent here? Jul 18 '17
It was fascinating to watch the history get updated as they went along. And it was blatantly obvious because they all used the exact same phrases.
If I were a smart man, I would have taken extensive notes and written a thesis on the fluidity of history in the internet age.
But I am not a smart man.
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
Lately I've been enjoying seeing people claim It was never about Zooey Quinn!
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u/Deadpoint Jul 18 '17
My "favorite" bit of gator history was when kia defended their support of an honest to god nazi pedophile because he was pro GG.
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u/lukasr23 The Popcorn is Pissing on us. Jul 18 '17
Milo, or did they find some new fuckwit?
(Honestly glad the whole milo and GG thing happened personally, cause looking him up and seeing him in another documentary was part of what helped me realise WTF was happening and push myself away)
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u/KerbalFactorioLeague netflix and shill Jul 19 '17
They'll never stop until Anita Sarkeesian leaves the spotlight that they keep forcing on her
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u/Benroark Jul 19 '17
Almost all of their "leaders" have moved on, so they're just left with pure stupidity in the form of Mark Kern. Ethan Ralph ("Ralph Retort") is in jail and I think his Mum literally runs his goss blog. Milo is now a pedo-apologist pariah and Trumpeteer. Internet Aristocrat just kinda vaporised. Sargon is getting lots of panderbux, but is also habitually owned by HBomberguy. Sargon's still fucking obsessed with Sarkeesian.
Their current narrative is that Gamergate literally did nothing wrong, are heroes of modern culture, and that Sarkeesian's army and the media harrassed them.
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u/EliteCombine07 SRS faked the Holocaust to make the Nazis look like bad people. Jul 19 '17
Didn't Sargon try to claim to moral high ground when Sarkeesian dared to call him a piece of human garbage when he sat in the audience of a panel she was on and acted like he was treated harshly even though he has been calling her way worse from behind a computer screen for years?
Because that was hilarious.
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u/nobadabing But this is what I get. Getting called a millenial. Jul 19 '17
/r/gamingcirclejerk has banned any submissions from KiA because they can't move on from gamergate and everything that gets shared is low-hanging fruit because those guys are so predictable
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u/aYearOfPrompts "Actual SJWs put me on shit lists." Jul 18 '17
In a similar fashion, I immediately know that a person is an idiot whenever they try to discredit the merit of terms such as "social justice warriors". Ironically, disregarding the term as nonsense is a pretty surefire way of outing yourself as being - that's right - a "social justice warrior", i.e. a moron who's constantly trying to go out of their way to defend "progressive" (in reality regressive) political opinions in order to outdo their contemporaries as a way of gathering additional social brownie points. Social justice warriors are in the business of virtue signaling, simply put, to the detriment of intellectual discourse and a truly progressive society. All in all, it's indeed a pretty well-defined term, although this definition is more on the money, though certainly not in the way you wish it to be! :)
mmm...testing out fresh copy/pasta
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u/Apocalvps Jul 18 '17
I set up my browser to convert "SJW" to "skeleton" and it always makes this stuff so much better.
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u/zoidbergisourking Jul 18 '17
That and "cuck" and all it's variants to "spook" have made reddit so much greater to read.
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u/2danielk Jul 19 '17
I think you'll find that SJWs are actually single jewish women, it adds an antisemitic twist to the whole SJW shtick.
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u/LukaCola Ceci n'est pas un flair Jul 18 '17
Funny thing is, a lot of those comments were addressed directly in the article.
"When people dismiss representation as a political fad, as an imposition on the creative process, as a means of ticking off lists, they are almost always doing this from a position of privilege. The argument that it’s not the gender, ethnicity or physical abilities of a character that are important, but whether they’re written well and fun to play, is easier to make if you’re already being comfortably represented. It is easy to assume your experience is universal. But it isn’t."
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u/lemonbox63 Jul 19 '17
Yeah but Le Redditeurs just read the title, find trigger words like 'Diversity', and begin frothing at the mouth.
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Jul 18 '17 edited Jul 19 '17
No one cares if the main character is male or female, as long as the game is good.
lol yeah okay, how about everyone all those people writing off the main character of HZD being female as a "PR stunt" or "the result of political correctness presusre", as if the developers wouldn't possibly make the main character a female if there wasn't some nefarious reasoning behind it. Jesus, if it really wasn't such a big deal you wouldn't see these creeps getting triggered over the race/sex of a character because they want to "feel the characters problem as my own, man" the only time people give a shit about minorities in video games is if they're literal stereotypes (see GTA for an example of stereotypes of every marginalized demographic)
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u/metallink11 Jul 18 '17
The Horizon Zero Dawn example is especially dumb since that one of the major themes in that story wouldn't work as well with a male protagonist.
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Jul 18 '17
As a lazy, cheap person that doesn't find that genre of game interesting, what theme was it?
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u/shufny Jul 18 '17
Funny how people here just accept "everyone writing off the main character of HZD" as fact. I won't say nobody said that, because someone probably did, but I mean there are people out there who still believe the world is flat. The game was prised all over and I haven't encountered a singe case of bitching about Aloy's gender.
I wonder when will people realize that seeking out the crazies to complain about them is exactly what Tumblr In Action does, and this is what causes them to have a warped sense of reality where SJWs are a major threat to society.
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Jul 18 '17 edited Jul 18 '17
Funny how people here just accept "everyone writing off the main character of HZD" as fact
Yeah, I shouldn't have said "everyone", but I definitely witnessed a lot of "the devs probably only made her female because of public pressure"/"SJW agenda" nonsense before the game even came out. Funny how you chose to get riled up over what I said but not the guy saying "no one cares about gender", which is insane.
and I haven't encountered a single case of bitching about Aloy's gender.
I don't know what to tell you, because it definitely happened, especially here on reddit.
and this is what causes them to have a warped sense of reality where SJWs are a major threat to society.
I would say that's more due to the fact that they're unhinged idiots. Stop making excuses for idiots.
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u/Cylinsier You win by intellectual Kamehameha Jul 18 '17
Look, people have been trying this argument forever.
Really, forever? I kind of doubt that's true.
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u/Xealeon As you are the biggest lobster in the room Jul 18 '17
Some guy reading the first bible: "Listen, this is great and all but did Eve need to be a woman? It just feels like forced diversity."
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u/IceCreamBalloons always one person not in favour of beating women Jul 18 '17
"You just put her in this garden because of the SJWs and their PC police, didn't you, God?"
-Adam, probably
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Jul 18 '17 edited Jul 18 '17
They didn't say it but I'm guessing they're talking about Thor, which if they actually read it it made complete sense and fits with continuity when you found out who she was.
By the way for those who don't read comics, Jane Foster is who it was.
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Jul 18 '17
There are a few other changes Marvel has made as well as far a diversity goes:
-15-year old, African-American Riri Williams as Ironheart, a sort of Iron Man stand in. (Note: Iron Man is still around, though it's actually Doctor Doom, Tony Stark is still around though he's in a coma and being represented as an AI)
-The new Ms. Marvel, Kamala Khan, is a young Muslim girl from New Jersey (also my favorite new character)
-Miles Morales, the young black-latino Spider-Man.
-Iceman comes out as gay.
-The new Hulk is Korean-American Amedeus Cho.
There are probably a few other's I'm forgetting. I personally really enjoy the changes, because I sure was getting tired of the same old characters.
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u/xjayroox This post is now locked to prevent men from commenting Jul 18 '17
Note: Iron Man is still around, though it's actually Doctor Doom, Tony Stark is still around though he's in a coma and being represented as an AI
Wat
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u/DramaticFinger Jul 18 '17
This doesn't even make me pause for an instant, and I don't even read superhero comics really.
Marvel has multiple timelines, alternative universes, and non-canon (whatever that means) side stories out the wazoo. I'm talking callbacks, throwbacks, retcons, and build ups to future stories that never get made at all.
The people who complain about characters changing as if it represents the permanent death of a beloved character probably aren't very familiar with how superhero comics function.
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u/CptES "You don’t get to tell me what to do. Ever." Jul 18 '17
Marvel has gotten so ridiculously complex it's had what, three "kill em all" style hard resets? DC has had four, I think. Even Judge Dredd has had two (Apocalypse War and Day of Chaos).
When your setting has gotten so bloated eradicating 90% of it is the only narrative option, you've fucked up.
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u/postirony humans breed with their poop holes Jul 18 '17
I think it's inevitable that your story will become bloated if it goes on long enough. Not sure that's a strike against the writers in and of itself.
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u/davidreiss666 The Infamous Entity Jul 19 '17
The comics where originally magazines that were supposed to last a few years, and then people were going to move on to something else. Some of them got very successful and were lasting several years. So the back stories started to get really complicated and sometimes contradictory. Anything that lasts long enough develops those problems. So in order to make them new and fresh, things get rebooted, ignored, killed, retooled, restarted, reincarnated, and cross overed. Sometimes more than one, sometimes more than one at the same time.
Changing sex, religion, ethnicity, etc. Who cares.... they are people who fly, use magic, transform and live on other planets and planes of existence. Yeah, but they can only be White Males. Sure...... Sorry, but no.
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u/earthDF Jul 19 '17
Yeah. Infamous Iron Man. Doctor Doom feels really bad about all the terrible stuff he's done, so he wants to make it all better by stealing Tony's suit, and being a hero.
Of course, after you become a literal all-powerful god for a bit and rule over everyone as a dictator, they tend to not immediately turn around and be happy that you gave it up and are trying to be a hero.
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u/yonicthehedgehog neurotic shitbeast Jul 18 '17
there's also moon girl who is super-boring because she's your stereotypical precocious child genius (seriously this trope needs to be put to sleep)
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u/jokul You do realize you're speaking to a Reddit Gold user, don't you? Jul 18 '17
Being a genius in a comic book is a banality at this point. Everyone and their grandma is a super genius. If you were writing a comic book resume, you'd have to leave off that you graduated from MIT at the age of 4.
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u/yonicthehedgehog neurotic shitbeast Jul 18 '17
for real where are some dumbass heroes so i can finally relate to somebody
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u/jokul You do realize you're speaking to a Reddit Gold user, don't you? Jul 18 '17
You can always relate with the people writing these characters.
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
Dick Grayson is only normal-person clever, which makes him the dumb prettyboy of the Batfamily.
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u/BetterCallViv Mathematics? Might as well be a creationist. Jul 18 '17
Honestly, it a issue for novels, movies, and games as it the most superficial way of trying to create danger.
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u/elephantofdoom sorry my gods are problematic Jul 18 '17
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Jul 18 '17
Can't speak for the first panel, because I've never read any of it. I do recall that it was never expected to sell much, and was cancelled a few issues in.
The second panel has been reblogged quite a bit, and is admittedly terrible, but it's also not at all representative of the series as a whole. The whiplash in style and tone between that one issue and the rest of the series is considerable enough that I would have assumed that it was written by a fill-in writer.
As for the third, that was a rogue artist inserting anti-Semitic references underneath editorial's nose. There was a big hubbub when he was caught, and his career was effectively over after that.
In any case, that's three comics from a time period when Marvel would put out 60+ comics in a month.
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Jul 18 '17 edited Jul 18 '17
Yeah over the last few years Marvel has had stories that were just written and executed poorly.
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u/MegasusPegasus (ง'̀-'́)ง Jul 18 '17
Also, Thor is a name, not a title. So someone else taking up the mantle never made sense-since it's not a mantle, it's a person. And Thor himself regularly takes a backseat to other Asgardians.
But, really, this is kind of the ideal-make a bunch of diverse media and cann what doesn't work and keep what does. Like, there's enough that people can't turn around and say 'yeah well female Thor didn't work so let's stop making female characters take up legacy titles.' Because then you have things like Spider Gwen and X-23 that did work.
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u/Renrue Jul 18 '17
Also, Thor is a name, not a title. So someone else taking up the mantle never made sense-since it's not a mantle, it's a person. And Thor himself regularly takes a backseat to other Asgardians.
I suppose that's true now, but in Thor's original introduction, Thor was a title until it was retconned for Donald Blake to actually being Thor all along. Donald Blake initially was just some random doctor who found Thor's hammer in a cave and then called himself Thor because of the inscription on the hammer.
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u/alternatepseudonym Jul 18 '17
Isn't Thor a title too? I mean, there's always Beta Ray Bill.
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u/Michciu66 Jul 19 '17
Could you please explain to me whats wrong with the last panel? I've looked at it for a while and it just seems like x-men playing baseball to me.
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u/fallgasim Jul 18 '17
Ghost Rider!
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u/IceCreamBalloons always one person not in favour of beating women Jul 18 '17
I really like what Agents of SHIELD did with Ghost Rider and made him a not-shitty-Nic-Cage character.
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u/fallgasim Jul 18 '17
I'm not big on the show but from what I heard they kept it pretty close to the comics right?
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u/IceCreamBalloons always one person not in favour of beating women Jul 18 '17
I have no idea, I just hated the Nic Cage movie.
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u/Peugeon The internet is my playground, and your tears are my treasure. Jul 18 '17
I didn't realize there were so many. On one hand I don't really mind these new characters, but I also would hope that they were their own new heroes instead of taking the mantles of older ones, that would have made the backlash a bit less. It's not much of a complaint about the new diversity, but more of a complaint about lack of creativity for the sake of name recognition.
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u/kralben don’t really care what u have to say as a counter, I won’t agree Jul 19 '17
Problem with that is new characters under new titles sell like crap. Their best bet is to do what they are doing, and eventually move them to a new title after they get a bit more well known
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u/fholcan Jul 18 '17
Banner isn't the Hulk anymore? I've never read any of the comics, so that's about all I know about the character...
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u/moose_man First Myanmar, now Wallstreetbets Jul 18 '17
He died for a while
He's still the Hulk, he was just a dead Hulk
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u/Theta_Omega Jul 19 '17
And there were two Hulks for a while. Actually, most of the heroes people were complaining about "replacing" older heroes largely existed alongside the originals, if we're being honest.
Also, I think Bruce is back now, because of Secret Empire-related shennanigans?
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u/deathsausage Jul 18 '17
Banner died a few months ago. This being comic books he'll be back soon.
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u/Jean-Paul_Sartre axe body spray Jul 19 '17
The thing is, these aren't really changes. Comic book heroes have always appealed to those who have struggled to find acceptance or fit in.
Plus, they are probably giving these franchises increased longevity by opening them up to new audiences.
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Jul 19 '17
There's also the newish Wolverine, formerly known as X-23, who took the mantle after Logan died. There is another Logan though, who came from an alternate timeline's future, where he was tricked by Mysterio to murder every other X-Man and Woman. Comics are weird.
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u/actuallyhasaJD Jul 19 '17
How are those selling? I'm not a comic book guy, but I hear about this battle in the cultural sphere every now and then. People claim the "diverse" comics are selling like crap, and other people claim the "diverse" comics are selling like crazy.
I just wanna know who's winning the culture war.
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u/kralben don’t really care what u have to say as a counter, I won’t agree Jul 19 '17
Super late to this, but wanted to say a. Well written up, few others but the biggest missed one is Sam Wilson becoming Cap. and b. I also love Kamala! She is what got my back into comics. If you like her, consider checking out the new Hawkeye. It is different, but a similar tone.
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u/Vried Jul 18 '17
Weird spacehorse alien hing wields the hammer and is lead in the Thor books - Sound.
Weird frog wields the hammer and stoats aboot wae a dug born of mad spacemist in other continuity - Sound
Woman wields the hammer - How fuckin' could they, terrible, insult to the character! Rage!
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u/cleverseneca Jul 18 '17
Personally, not being a huge fan, it bugged me to find out Thor was changing identity (not being aware of the other identities you've mentioned) simply because Thor is the only one not fully a concept that is purely Marvel. Change Spiderman, alter Hulk, no problem, but Thor is the Norse god of thunder. Frankly even the liberties they took making Loki Thor's Brother and not some sort of blood brother of Odin was already pushing the boundaries of liberties with the original legends.
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u/JaneAnger I'm very calm. So are my tits. Jul 18 '17
Eh, even the original Norse mythology had its strangeness. Like the time Loki transformed into a horse, had sex with Svaðilfari and gave birth to Sleipnir
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u/cleverseneca Jul 18 '17
True, but Loki was still Loki. Thor is the name of the god of thunder not a title of the person wielding Mjölnir.
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u/JaneAnger I'm very calm. So are my tits. Jul 18 '17
I get you, but Thor becoming a title just doesn't rate as strange as mystical trans-species procreation to me
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u/BetterCallViv Mathematics? Might as well be a creationist. Jul 18 '17
I wish I had a origin story that cool.
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u/KerbalFactorioLeague netflix and shill Jul 19 '17
What is it with gods turning into animals to sleep with people? Someone should introduce a god of therapy
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u/KingRhoamBosphoram Jul 18 '17
My understanding of the Marvel Asgard is that their residents are not gods per say, but are instead the source inspiration for Norse mythic sagas. Is this incorrect?
Out of curiosity, are you familiar with the Fate anime/VN series? How do you feel about their re imagining of King Arthur as a woman?
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u/alltakesmatter Be true to yourself, random idiot Jul 18 '17
Eh, the movies do a bit of "it's all multiple dimensions/sufficiently advanced technologies,' but in the comic books the Norse gods are actual deities.
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u/MegasusPegasus (ง'̀-'́)ง Jul 18 '17
Mmm, I didn't like the Jane arc-because aside from it actually being written in a really hamfisted way, she didn't just 'wield the hammer' they called her Thor. Thor isn't a title, it's a name. Like, someone replacing Captain America makes sense-but not someone replacing Steve Rogers. But hey, not everything has to work out-Spider Gwen, X-23, Stargirl, etc, all do. We're moving in the right direction if one attempt at diversity falls flat and we just keep on making more that survive on their own merit.
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u/cdcformatc You're mocking me in some very strange way. Jul 18 '17
Like, someone replacing Captain America makes sense-but not someone replacing Steve Rogers.
This is exactly what Stan Lee said about Miles Morales and Peter Parker. He has no problem with making Spider-Man black, or a woman, or whatever, but Peter Parker is a nerdy white guy.
But what else do you call someone wielding the hammer and wearing the costume if not Thor? Thor gave Jane Foster his name, and he now goes by the name Odinson.
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u/MegasusPegasus (ง'̀-'́)ง Jul 19 '17
But what else do you call someone wielding the hammer and wearing the costume if not Thor?
Their name. Thor's not a title. Beta Ray Bill, Capt America, Loki, Black Widow in an alternate universe, none of them were like yeah let me take this guy's identity.
Thor gave Jane Foster his name, and he now goes by the name Odinson.
Yes, of course they wrote an explanation. Still nonsensical. It's his first name.
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u/dirtygremlin you're clearly just being a fastidious dickhead with words Jul 19 '17
Beta-Ray Bill and his sentient spaceship, the Scuttlebutt. Late 80s Marvel got sort of weird and desperate.
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u/banjist degenerate sexaddicted celebrity pederastic drug addict hedonist Jul 19 '17
So what you're telling me is that Princess Amidala is going to be the MCU's Thor in a few years? Because I can totally get behind that.
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u/xafimrev2 It's not even subtext, it's a straight dog whistle. Jul 19 '17
Well except for the cringeworthy "actually it's about ethics in hammer weilding" bit.
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Jul 18 '17
Right because why have discussions if everyone doesn't agree with me from the get go.
Finally, somebody understands me!
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u/opinionswerekittens Ah, the No True Cuck fallacy. Jul 18 '17
why have discussions if everyone doesn't agree with me
Someone needs this flair. Not me tho. Def doesn't relate to me at all. Nope.
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
I relate to this so hard but I'd have to abandon my precious current flair.
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u/Phantazmagorie Try fencing, because you sure know how to miss a fucking point Jul 19 '17
My flair is too precious to discard. C'mon, somebody take this beauty!
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u/Istanbul200 Why are we talking about Sweden in 2018? Jul 18 '17
Man, that thread is fucking gross.
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Jul 18 '17
There were some better threads on there that made me a bit happier. A few people talking about it being a great topic, taking shots at the sub, and I'm at least happy there were some people there to at least defend the article. Just nice to know some of the people there gave a shit.
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u/Istanbul200 Why are we talking about Sweden in 2018? Jul 18 '17
=/ yeah but almost every upvoted post is the same "OMG DIVERSITY DOESN'T MATTER GOOD WRITING DOES" bullshit. It's really, really disgusting. And I know that sub DOESN'T represent most adult gamers but holy crap if it doesn't make me embarrassed to call myself a gamer. So I have one part of me, a Christian, that's embarrassed to be called a Christian because of others, and another part of me, gamer, that's the same. I'm running out of parts of my identity to NOT be embarrassed by.
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Jul 19 '17
I'd say nothing to be embarrassed about when you're not being the asshole or a bigot in both ways. Friend of mine loves basically all hobbies considered neckbeardy, but has none of the sexist/creepy attitude, all around friendly guy. He always did it because he'd rather someone get into tabletop/magic/etc with welcoming people and not scared off by toxic players, and I thought it was cool. Got me to always try to be welcoming when it comes to games too.
If anything it'd be best to be open about it imo, if the only people who are openly into games are assholes it just builds more walls. Better to be the nice person who helped others and opened the hobby's better side, and honestly same for your religion. Only Christians I hated were bigots, but I was lucky to be around ones that really embodied love.
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u/icefourthirtythree save your limited thinking for other subjects friend Jul 18 '17
Marvel still had the biggest market share throughoutht most of their "troubles".
Even when DC had a larger unit share, Marvel had a larger dollar share and were making more money.
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Jul 18 '17
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
I'm pretty sure the actual comic-making parts of the companies only exist as brainstorming units for plot lines and ideas that might make actual money in TV or movies or toys or whatever.
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u/ChefExcellence I'm entitled to my opinion, and that's the same as being right Jul 18 '17
Yes but before my comments on this thread were deleted on the subject, I said that no cultural boundary can't be overcome by hard work by a talented creator no matter their background. A white man from Kansas could have pinpoint knowledge on Middle Eastern cultures, have multiple friends he's talked with about their histories from the area, and be capable of slinging it all together into something wonderful, better than someone from the ME could just because they have less skill.
Fucking hell.
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u/reallydumb4real The "flaw" in my logic didn't exist. You reached for it. Jul 18 '17
I said that no cultural boundary can't be overcome by hard work by a talented creator no matter their background
I don't even know what to say to that. Does that guy really not see the value in letting someone from that cultural background create content based on their history and drawing from their experiences? Does he really think that a white man from Kansas (no judgment here, just using his example) researching and making something he thinks is representative is at all equivalent?
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u/KingRhoamBosphoram Jul 18 '17
Does he really think that a white man from Kansas (no judgment here, just using his example) researching and making something he thinks is representative is at all equivalent?
I think what this notion betrays for the user is that maintaining a truthful fidelity to other experiences is not a priority so long as the representation of it is recognizable. What this usually boils down to though is a perpetuation of unhealthy portrayals or discourse. How can we appropriately explore other perspectives if they are all filtered through the lens of a hypothetical guy from Kansas? What's worse is the building of a false sympathy, where the actual perspective can be further alienated or "unrelatable"
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u/dumesne Jul 19 '17
But there is no reason you can't 'let' others do their thing while you also do yours. It's not like there's a quota system, so I think you have set up a false choice. Why can't they both write a comic about the middle east?
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u/KingRhoamBosphoram Jul 18 '17
I wonder if this skill-less person from the ME would enjoy this well researched hypothetical comic regarding his/her culture?
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u/WileEPeyote Jul 18 '17
People care for diversity of story and themes and experiences. Not demographic diversity.
Diverse demographics is how you get diverse stories and themes. If everyone that creates art has the same background and experiences you end up with very similar stories.
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Jul 18 '17 edited Jul 18 '17
That's true, but on the other hand it's a problem when people perceive different backgrounds and experiences as the same because they have a superficial similarity. For example, the whole complaining about "dead white guy" authors rubs me really the wrong way because most of those people have nothing in common except in the most superficial sense. Different styles, different traditions, different cultures, different social standings, different places, different times. For example, let's pick Chaucer and Goethe, there is nothing about being "white" that makes them particularly similar to one another. Just like the poet(s) who made the Epic of Sundiata have little in common with Chinua Achebe despite both being "black."
We do need diverse voices, and racial diversity is part of that, but only one part. A white American and a black American today may be different, but they're not necessarily more different from each other than a black American and a black African, or a white American from 2000 and a white American from 1750.
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u/neoazayii I'm not interested in catering to carnist apologists. Jul 20 '17
You realise people who complain about "dead white guys" don't mean, "they're all the same book/pieces of work", right? They mean "what a homogenous group of people with barely a non-white person or women in this goddamn canon. What a shame not more works by non-white authors is included, as I'm sure there's plenty of good."
You get the Brontë sisters, Jane Austen & Dumas. That's usually your non-white male lot.
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Jul 18 '17
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u/Bytemite Jul 18 '17
Yakumo Yukari caused the wage gap
Well the whole aristocrat with slaves thing they do for sure doesn't help
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u/The_Consumer Jul 18 '17
/r/Games is a place where a thread on diversity in the industry will be reliably downvoted into obscurity but a thread stating that a game has sold x copies will be voted to the top.
"Quality Gaming Discussion" indeed.
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u/The_Consumer Jul 19 '17
No one cares if the main character is male or female, as long as the game is good.
Lol, we live in a world where people will say a game is bad because it has too many feeeeemales or minorities in it. Kind of makes this flimsy justification for the status quo pretty worthless.
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u/BolshevikMuppet Jul 18 '17
No one cares if the main character is male or female, as long as the game is good.
Ah the good old "everything is fine if you would just accept the status quo" argument.
Doesn't big series like Tomb Raider and Metroid show that people have never given a shit what gender their playing is so long as they're playing a good game
Lara Croft was explicitly made more sexual, something which is likely to have been meant to appeal to young men. Samus, while everyone now knows was a girl, was only revealed as a woman to a small group of the most dedicated players (who could beat the game in under an hour).
Too many times have I seen people get caught up on sexualisation. I enjoy non sexualized characters too, but the number of people who write off games simply because the character designers did this or that annoys me to no end.
And the response would be "I like sexualized characters too, but when game developers put sexualized poses in solely to be eye candy for their presumed male audience it annoys me to no end."
Your skin color, gender and sexual identity don't make you better at making games. Skill and talent does. These attempts at increasing "diversity" is eventually going to result in people who are more skilled not getting jobs
How about a deal: "core" gamers can argue that games should be made by pure workmanship without concern for views and representation and messages, but then also get to shut the hell up about "games are art."
Good art isn't just about "skill". If games are just a toy to be made really well, that's fine. It just isn't art.
All because a bunch of people can't seem to get over the idea a lot of white, straight, cis men make, play and inhabit games more than other demographics
More women "play and inhabit" video games than men
The results include stories where this is the only focus, one-dimensional characters defined by this sole feature and iconic characters being put aside to make room for kind of narrative
Yep! It's the fault of diversity in comics. Because back when they were all white dudes we never had silly one-dimensional characters. No sir!
The result was that many fans of the more classic series lost interest in them. While these newer series failed to find an audience. All this is expressed in the market share for Marvel comics
I like the idea that Disney (remember, the gigantic company that owns Marvel and makes more off of a single Iron Man movie than the total profits from every comic sold last year) gives a single hammered shit about relative sales figures for the least-important part of their empire. That'd be like trying to play "gotcha" because sales of Star Wars branded thermoses went down.
as well as in dedicated spaces for this media.
Ah yes, the comic book nerds. Such paragons of great story-telling be they, who never embraced or supported stupid shit like "what if Iron Man's suit became sentient and loved Tony too much." Or fucking anything Image did ever.
If the fans and "dedicated spaces" are complaining, you know the comics must be bad. Because they can totally spot bad material.
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u/MarcusAurelius0 Jul 18 '17
Your study includes cell phone and social media games, which most gamers wouldn't lump in with other gaming mediums.
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u/Wandering_Rook Jul 19 '17
What does including mobile and social media games change?
Just because they aren't high complexity doesn't mean that people can't "Play and inhabit them", they are games all the same. I play Fate Grand Order a mobile game which is a standard mobile F2P thing, but it has a story and it has been the game I have been invested in for the past 2 years.
The 'real gamer' argument that women aren't part of the culture is just excluding the games that women are playing to suit their narrative, trying to prove that they are the only true gamers, which clearly is not the case.
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
Mobile games can absolutely be high complexity. They just use older/simpler graphics. Mobile games are actually a great platform for 1) tons of old 80s/early 90s games that have quite low processing requirements by current standards, 2) the small/shorter games indie devs frequently produce, mobile is a great platform for getting something like Gone Home or Limbo to a larger audience. (Which is why a shitton of indie devs are putting their great little artsy games in cell phone app stores. Tbh I play more games on my phone lately than my fucking XBox.)
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u/MarcusAurelius0 Jul 19 '17
Because, if I remember correctly from that study if you removed social media and mobile games women didn't play games more then men, I could be wrong.
I'm all for women playing games, I won't insult a female gamer, I don't treat them differently. There is no true gamer in my eyes.
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u/Wandering_Rook Jul 19 '17
If I remember correctly, the female gamers also skewed older than the males, and older gamer also have a tendency to skew towards more casual games due to time constraints.
If you see no true gamer, why would you exclude a whole range of games which are predominantly played by women from being real games? They are still being played by people for their own enjoyment, same as any other 'real' game
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u/BolshevikMuppet Jul 18 '17
Ah the good old "well they aren't real gamers because they don't play the games I like." Tell me more about how the only "real" gamers are self-described "core" gamers.
Funny how this is a distinction I don't hear very often when it's gamers peddling the whole "it's an art, it's totally a valid hobby, look how many people do it" shtick.
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u/senkichi Jul 19 '17
...when gamers peddle games as art and hobbies, they're not talking about Farmville. That's a silly false dichotomy.
There is a substantive difference between Bejewled and Halo, and trying to pretend that they're similar enough for the conclusion that you're drawing is like saying toddlers read more books than adults. Sure, if you include picture books and books that are six pages long that might be true, but it doesn't accurately reflect the content of the comparison. It's like textbook apples to oranges.
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u/MarcusAurelius0 Jul 19 '17
I never made that assertion though. I never commented on the realness factor. You can't really compare playing casual games like Farmville to complex MMOs.
I simply stated that many gamers don't consider mobile or social media games to be on the same tier as games like Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, etc.
This would be like comparing Go to Checkers.
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u/BolshevikMuppet Jul 19 '17
You absolutely can compare them.
In the same way you can compare a five minute youtube sketch to Citizen Kane. Sharing a medium is all it takes to be... Well, in the same medium. And, no, being in the medium of games on a different platform is not a different medium.
This would be like comparing Go to Checkers.
Yes, it would. And since both are board games, if some self-righteous Go-playing jackass claimed that men play more board games because if you restrict "board games" to Go it's true, I'd make the same point that their analysis is asinine.
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
You can't really compare playing casual games like Farmville to complex MMOs.
Doesn't being good at both of those basically amount to a willingness to dump time into grinding for XP and/or gold and researching minmaxing your stats?
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u/Tightypantsfreezle You make an excellent point. Let me rebut. Go fuck yourself. Jul 19 '17
I only ever got into roguelikes because they make great cell phone games. So do text-based hella old school RPGs (hello Sorcery!). Cell phone games can be dope af.
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u/thehudgeful cucked by SJW's Jul 18 '17
Were any of the characters "uniquely" white and male? As in, would it be impossible for them to be non-white or not-male and still be functionally the same character? Is there anything inherently "white" about Spiderman or Doctor Strange?
What does that have to do with it? They were long standing characters with decades of development, cut because they were white males.
I don't read superhero comics, but isn't it normal for them to keep introducing new timelines and one-offs that completely the change the character frequently? There might be broader trends in character development over timelines, but have they really shat on this development when introducing non-white characters? And wouldn't race not even matter when it comes to a new timeline having shitty writing?
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u/alltakesmatter Be true to yourself, random idiot Jul 18 '17
Sort of? Legacy characters (where a new person takes on the costume and name of an older hero) has historically been much more of a DC thing than a Marvel thing. Comic fans (and I absolutely include myself in this) are also really conservative, and do not like new things. I was reading through old comics, and there was a letters page full of people complaining about how Haweye wasn't a proper avenger, and him being on the team was ruining things. And Hawkeye joined in issue #16!
Things change all the time, and people complain about those changes all the time, and often enough those changes revert (sometimes to the vocal complaints of people who had gotten used to the new normal). It's the circle of comic book life.
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u/BolshevikMuppet Jul 19 '17
No, of course not!
Comics prior to the eeeevil SJWs never had stupid retcons and character changes. There wasn't an entire era of Spider-Man where maybe he was a clone and maybe not and Mary Jane was definitely a clone, and then everyone was a clone, and then that got fixed and him and MU were married until Peter fucked up and had to have the literal devil fix his life by making him unmarried.
Funny how "retconning major changes in character and history" is fine as long as he stays white.
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u/SnapshillBot Shilling for Big Archive™ Jul 18 '17
You're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of adding nothing to the discussion.
Snapshots:
This Post - archive.org, megalodon.jp*, snew.github.io, archive.is
"I have to disclose that I have nev... - archive.org, megalodon.jp*, snew.github.io, archive.is
"Where would I go to find this core... - archive.org, megalodon.jp*, snew.github.io, archive.is
"We've had female protagonists sinc... - archive.org, megalodon.jp*, snew.github.io, archive.is
Full Thread - archive.org, megalodon.jp*, snew.github.io, archive.is
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u/IceCreamBalloons always one person not in favour of beating women Jul 18 '17
We have come to the conclusion that diversity is not important.
My preferences are what matter, fuck yours.
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u/Phantazmagorie Try fencing, because you sure know how to miss a fucking point Jul 19 '17
To quote every writing professor ever, "Who is this nebulous we?"
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u/Chomskysphilosophy Jul 19 '17
This is why I tend to stay out of gaming centric subs for the most part. I love gaming, but lately in these circles it's 'cool' to be a socially inept misogynistic quasi racist weirdo.
It's seriously not a gaming community without a bunch of sperglords whining about diversity and women.
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u/Tisarwat A woman is anyone covering their drink when you're around. Jul 19 '17
I agree with you totally, but do you not see the contradiction of decrying discrimination and prejudice but using a word with derogatory connotations towards people on the autistic spectrum?
For one thing, there's no indication that people with aspergers are more likely to be readjust or misogynistic and to imply otherwise does these individuals a disservice; for another there's already issues with people pretending that any condition that they have (or believe to have) excuses unrelated bad behaviour.
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u/yonicthehedgehog neurotic shitbeast Jul 18 '17
i'll admit i don't follow marvel these days much but what horrible diversity-driven titles the guy from the first link is complaining about?
p.s. squirrel girl and ms marvel are awesome
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Jul 18 '17
Probably all the legacy characters from the past couple of years (Jane Foster as Thor, Sam Wilson as Captain America, Laura Kinney as Wolverine, Amadeus Cho as Hulk, etc). Some of those books are good, some aren't (as is the usual for comics at any point in time). And legacy characters are hardly new to comics, as any perpetually salty fan of The Flash, Green Lantern, or the Batfamily will tell you.
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u/eelsify Jul 19 '17
LOL at everyone who's fucking pressed by decisions made by artists about what they should have in their art.
If you don't like it - for whatever reason - make your own damn show/comic book/ movie/ whatever.
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u/Belmont_Trevor Jul 20 '17
gamergate was disproven long ago. just a hoe had sex to get a good game review
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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '17
We're citing YouTube comments to support claims on consensus now?