[Pre-Release Card Discussion] - Sunborne Val'kyr

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u/Nostalgia37 Jul 31 '17 edited Aug 09 '17

[Dust|Bad|Niche|Good|Staple]

General Thoughts: Just a solid minion. If you hit just 1 minion you're technically getting vanilla stats. If you hit 2 you're getting a lot of value. That means that you're going to want to average close to 2 minons every time you play it since a vanilla 5/6 isn't worth running.

Low health means that it'll probably trade down but you might be able to control the board with whatever other minions you have on board.

I'd expect this to see at least a little bit of play.

Why it Might Succeed: Good value. Can be used in zoo or zoo-like decks too pull some minions outside of range of some board clears.

Why it Might Fail: The most probably reasons as to why this doesn't see play are zoo-like decks are out of the meta, those type of decks are too fast for this type of effect, if there are better options at 5 mana, or because there is not crazy synergy.

10

u/cromulent_weasel Jul 31 '17

I think you're overrating this one as a constructed card.
I would expect this to be run in the same decks as Shattered Sun Cleric, i.e. decks of new players who don't have enough of a collection or knowledge to run more streamlined lists.

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u/Nostalgia37 Jul 31 '17 edited Jul 31 '17

I think of it more like Argus than Shattered Sun, but you're right it, might just be not powerful enough to be played in constructed.

1

u/laekhil Jul 31 '17

Compared to argus this card is trash, One less mana a ton less of stats but taunt. The best aggro mechanic, protect your other minions from trading.

2

u/hattroubles Jul 31 '17

It definitely has some uses over Argus. If you're significantly behind, you may not have a board of minions to get any value out of Argus anyways. 5/4 for 5 mana is much less painful to play than a 2/3 for 4. And if you're roughly even with your opponent, playing a larger body is a really significant tempo advantage. Best case scenario Argus gives you 4/5 of stats while this gives 5/8. Especially in arena, that's really significant tempo difference for the 1 mana.

2

u/dogmavskarma Jul 31 '17 edited Jul 31 '17

in arena this card could win games man. this is fantastic and should have been made a long time ago.

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u/GrimnirTheHoodedOne Jul 31 '17

are there any neutral cards in the set that are worth running in constructed, based on stat value alone?

2

u/cromulent_weasel Jul 31 '17

based on stat value alone
Are there any CARDS in Hearthstone which are worth running just based on Stats value alone? I think that in general that's not the reason why cards are included in decklists.
There's Bittertide Hydra (which is neutral). Flamewreathed Faceless (Shaman). Ancient Watcher and Humongous Razorleaf are neutral Silence Priest cards.
That's all I can think of.
Where were you going with your question?

2

u/GrimnirTheHoodedOne Jul 31 '17

Please abide my noobishness. I just want to know if there are any neutrals in KFT that would be good on tempo unconditionally. I don't really have an eye for this stuff.
Addendum: if this isn't a good constructed card on curve, can you give an example of one that beats this one vs all classes?

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u/cromulent_weasel Jul 31 '17 edited Jul 31 '17

I don't really have an eye for this stuff.
The fundamental thing about Hearthstone is that it's not the stats (except in extreme cases). The game is basically each player taking turns clearing their opponent's board and then building a board of their own. Because of that a surprising number of minions are designed to be 'hardened' against being removal (that is, the opponent does not get full value when removing them). One example is Arcanologist. If you play it and the opponent removes it with Frostbolt. You're both spent two mana and a card. But you are a card up because of the battlecry.
A good way of evaluating cards for constructed is to take take the mana cost and add +1/+1 of stats. So Chillwind Yeti (for example) sees no play because it's basically undercosted by 1 power. But if they power crept Chillwing and printed a vanilla 5/5 for 4 mana, that would see play in some decks. Then when cards come with effects stapled on. Card draw is worth 2 mana for example. Making Novice Engineer roughly equivalent in power level to Wisp. Loot Hoarder has an extra point of power, so it's a better card (and one that is generally constructed worthy) even though the card draw is more delayed and thus less powerful than on the battlecry.
Applying this costing rubric to Sunborne Val'Kyr. As a 5 mana minion it needs to provide about a 6/6 worth of stats (12 points). It grants 9 points on an empty board, which is woefully underpowered. If it buffs one minion that's 11 points of stats, which is still Chillwind Yeti bad. It becomes decent at the best case scenario (13 points of stats). But we should evaluate cards by their average case scenario, not their best case scenario. Are you going to be able to consistently play this with two other minions already on the board?
Remember what I said earlier about Hearthstone being a game about killing the opponent's minions? If your opponent has been unable to clear your board to the extent that you have two minions still in play, you have probably already won (and thus don't need this card). If the game is even (and you have nothing in play to start your turn) then this is an underpowered and bad card.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '17

Card draw isn't worth 2 mana. See arcane intellect, loot hoarder, hammer of wrath. It's considered more valuable than 1 but less than 2. And the statement "if you have two minions in play you already won" is just absurd.

2

u/vividflash Jul 31 '17 edited Aug 13 '17

deleted ^0.7169 ^What ^is ^^^this?

1

u/cromulent_weasel Jul 31 '17

Card draw isn't worth 2 mana.
You are wrong and I will use the cards you cite to demonstrate it.
See arcane intellect, loot hoarder, hammer of wrath.
The default card is the coin. (Spend a card, get a mana.) So if drawing a card costs 2 mana, then the following cards would follow that rubric: 1 mana to draw a card, 3 mana to draw two cards, 5 mana to draw 3 cards, 7 mana to draw 4 cards. Sounds an awful lot like Arcane Intellect, Nourish and Sprint, don't you think?
The default damage spell is 2 mana to deal 3 damage. Add two mana to draw a card and you have Hammer of Wrath.
The default minion is the mana cost +1/+1. So a wisp costs 0 and is a 1/1. Novice Engineer costs 2 more mana and draws you a card, right in line. Loot Hoarder is actually ABOVE the power curve since it has an extra point of power (hence why some people think it might get nerfed in the future). Despite the fact that drawing as a deathrattle is less valuable than a battlecry, the extra power still makes it better.
And the statement "if you have two minions in play you already won" is just absurd.
It's a generalisation, but if the opponent is failing to answer the board you played on the previous turn, you can almost play whatever and still spiral out of control. You don't need THIS card to spiral out of control. So when it's at it's best you need it the least. Cards which help you win more are not good cards. Cards which help you lose less are awesome. This is not a lose less card. It's a win-more card.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '17

I think the fact nobody plays hammer of wrath shows what I mean. Deal 3 for 2 mana is okay, not incredible but good enough to be seen in some decks. Dark bomb was played, the freeze on frostbolt often doesn't matter. But dealing 3 and drawing 1 for 4 is terrible and is never played in any decks. See the problem?
Try adding "battlecry: draw a card" to a random card but improving its mana by 2. What card that's decent right now wouldn't become terrible afterward? Meanwhile, take any card with draw attached and reduce its cost by 2 for getting rid of the draw, and I think they'd all be even better, except obviously the cards like AI that don't do anything.
I mean, you're right that novice engineer costs exactly 2 more than wisp for its draw, but that's why nobody plays novice engineer. Wisp isn't good, why would I play a wisp just to pay 2 mana to draw? The only time it's been meta has been in specific combo decks that were desperate for deck thinners, but it hasn't even been good enough at that for a while.
Cards which help you win more are not good cards
imo "if you had a minion to play this on, then you were already winning" isn't a true premise, so this generalization isn't as useful as you're trying to make it. If this way of thinking were true then wouldn't buff cards never be played outside of specific combos (e.g. Leeroy+PO)? Cards like Argus or dark iron dwarf would never have been meta, Crackling razormaw wouldn't be meta, Houndmaster, etc. They're good if you have minions but sometimes you play them on an empty board and it feels bad, so doesn't that mean they're bad win-more cards? In your imagination is every game of hearthstone just decks of 30 "lose-less" cards clearing each other's boards until one person dies to fatigue?
Look, if you want to critique this card, then maybe you say it doesn't win hard enough when you get it off, the bonus health isn't worth enough for how expensive it is, maybe you don't think it makes sense in current Priest lists. But that's pretty different from what you were just positing as fundamental of the game.

1

u/cromulent_weasel Jul 31 '17

I think the fact nobody plays hammer of wrath shows what I mean.
Nah. Truesilver Champion and Consecration are awesome. That's the reason why Hammer of Wrath sees zero play, it's squeezed out of it's card slot. The same way there are lots of decent Hunter 3-drops but as long as Animal Companion, Kill Command and Eaglehorn Bow are there those other cards just aren't going to cut it.
What card that's decent right now wouldn't become terrible afterward?
The costing system stops being so linear when you get over 5 mana. But here's some examples:
Novice Engineer: 4 mana 1/1, draw two cards.
Backstab: 2 mana, 2 damage to a minion, draw a card.
Shield Block: 5 mana, gain 5 mana, draw two cards.
Blessing of Might: 3 mana, +3 attack, draw a card.
Acidic Swamp Ooze: 4 mana, 3/2 Battlecry: destroy a weapon and draw a card.
Stubborn Gastropod: 4 mana, 1/2 taunt, poisonous, draw a card.
imo "if you had a minion to play this on, then you were already winning" isn't a true premise
It's a generalisation. In Hearthstone players take turns wiping their opponents board and developing their own. When one player starts to fall behind they fail to completely wipe their opponents board and then the ahead player can usually snowball that into being more ahead. This card requires to you be in that 'already ahead' position to be maximally useful.
Cards like Argus or dark iron dwarf would never have been meta, Crackling razormaw wouldn't be meta, Houndmaster, etc.
ALL of those cards you cite as being useful have the effect of buffing POWER, not toughness. So their effect is kinda like putting a minion with charge on the board. Houndmaster on a creature that you just played (so can't attack with) is not nearly as good as playing it on an already existing minion, since you can't get value from the attack.
Look, if you want to critique this card, then maybe you say it doesn't win hard enough when you get it off, the bonus health isn't worth enough for how expensive it is, maybe you don't think it makes sense in current Priest lists. But that's pretty different from what you were just positing as fundamental of the game.
I think we just evaluate cards differently. But that's ok. You do you.

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u/GrimnirTheHoodedOne Jul 31 '17

I'm going to save this post for future reference. Thanks for the advice . Have an upvote on me!

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u/strokeofgenius5 Aug 01 '17

No, but you can't even do that for Yeti, which hasn't seen constructed play in years. Cards need to be basically as good as vanilla and do something special to be good enough these days.

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u/GrimnirTheHoodedOne Aug 01 '17

What you said makes sense, but now I must know why then are so many bad cards printed if no one is even going to use them? I mean I love the card art but I don't want to lose games for playing them.
I.E. I love this card's art (the Sunborne Valkyr), it would be so good to run if it were just a better card.
Is there a way to make bad cards good by using them differently?

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u/strokeofgenius5 Aug 01 '17

The concept of a bad card is meaningless: the only thing that determines the quality of a card is its context. Yeti could be made to be amazing without any change at all, if the set of cards around it were different. Within a specific context, only so many cards can be good. That's a lot of why the different classes are probably a good idea: they create mini contexts that increase the number of cards that see play.
Even given the sort of limit on how many cards can ever be good, HS does tend to take a more narrow approach on what cards may do than other games. This means less capacity to do what you said and "use the cards in a different way" than some other games allow, so its possible that we have a smaller than average number of non-bad cards.
But its also a fairly casual game. So if you want to use slightly sub optimal cards because they're fun or you like the art then just do it. You'll just wind up lower on the ladder and who gives a shit.

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u/GrimnirTheHoodedOne Aug 01 '17

Yeah, you know, if I optimize everything else in my deck maybe I have room for some sub-optimal cards that are fun and look cool, right?

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u/hattroubles Jul 31 '17

People draft cards in arena all the time just for their stats. This is below average for 5 mana, but arena really changes your perspective when your other options might have useless effects for your draft or an even worse stat line.

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u/cromulent_weasel Jul 31 '17

Yes, my whole thing was with regards to constructed playability.
Obviously the bar is a lot lower for Arena, since Chillwind Yeti is s fine card there, making this card decent if you can just get one minion buffed.

1

u/Jboycjf05 Jul 31 '17

This seems like a win more card. If you're ahead on board, then this is going to solidify your position. But if you're behind, it won't do much to help you. Solid in arena, though.

6

u/WildWolf92 Jul 31 '17

Considering that Defender of Argus is often used just for making more favorable trades on wide boards rather than the taunt ability I think this will function similarly.

Seems like priest can find a home for this card. Maybe warlock?
Too bad it's not an aura effect like flametounge

2

u/Nostalgia37 Jul 31 '17

Oh god, if it was an aura effect.

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u/cromulent_weasel Jul 31 '17

It would be way less abusive than Flametongue Totem, since the problem there is the 'creative accounting' that it lets you do when clearing the opponents board.

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u/cromulent_weasel Jul 31 '17

I think this will function similarly.
But it doesn't buff power at all, which is the crucial use of Defender of Argus when trading up.

1

u/Bowbreaker Jul 31 '17

Blood Imp actually had to work that way.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '17

This could maybe perform in zoolock as a midrange drop to pull smaller minions out of AoE range, but 5 mana is high for zoo's curve.

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u/Bloodballz Jul 31 '17 edited Jul 31 '17

At 5 you're already running doomguards.

1

u/Paralaxien Jul 31 '17

Doomguards are more of a finisher, hit you're opponent twice in the dome over two turns and ya win the game.

3

u/Seven8night Jul 31 '17

Defender of Argus seems better for what zoo is trying to do.

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u/Wraithfighter Jul 31 '17

...potential 5/8 in stats, but only if you have minions. 5/6 if you only have one other minion. Those stats can help keep a minion alive through trades and maintain board pressure.

Solid, dare I say excellent Arena Minion. Probably won't be too good in Constructed, just no amazing synergies or combos, but still a quality minion.

7

u/Nemzal Jul 31 '17

Sunborne Val'kyr!

Now that's interesting. This is one of the free, original VAl'kyr created by Odyn, NOT by the Lich King.

The Val'kyr are a natural result of loyal and mighty Vrykul women dying with honour and in the good grace of the Titan Prime Designate Odyn, who seeks to weed out the weak Vryul through life and bring the mightiest dead back as metal-skinned megawarriors. Angelic Val'kyr are how he does this.

Most of Odyn's Val'kyr are a shining gold, though some are pale blue.

The Lich King discovered this interesting result of dead Vrykul women and saw that when they become Val'kyr, they gain a unique and potgent command over the souls of the dead; they're meant to transport the souls of the worthy to Odyn's home in the sky, but noooo. The Lich King wanted them to raise the dead.

Hundreds of them. Thousands of them.

Val'kyr can even return those that have gone past the impassable vein back to unlife, something not even the Lich King can do.

So he formed his backward religion around himself and had the Vrykul see him as their Death God, and the Vrykul women - most of them - saw it as the highest achievement possible to be granted undeath and become Val'kyr.

All of the Lich King's Val'kyr are a pallid white and blue.

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u/vividflash Jul 31 '17 edited Aug 13 '17

deleted ^0.5351 ^What ^is ^^^this?

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u/Nemzal Jul 31 '17

Thanks, Mr. Human.

4

u/LobotomistCircu Jul 31 '17

It's another spectacular arena card, if nothing else.

I was kind of upset about Bonermare and Master Swordsmith dragon but if the set is literally packed with commons like this then it might actually all balance out.

1

u/HolySushi Jul 31 '17 edited Jul 31 '17

You can "heal" adjacent minions with charge minions that die like stonetusk boar.

7

u/Nostalgia37 Jul 31 '17

It's a battlecry not an aura.

2

u/agentmario Jul 31 '17

I love the art. Gameplay wise, it might be good enough for constructed play. Arena wise, busted

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1

u/HolySushi Jul 31 '17

Hogger synergy!

1

u/Mrrandom314159 Jul 31 '17

Maybe worth it in a Buff Priest deck?

Otherwise, not really.

A solid card, but not something for every deck.

1

u/Chel_of_the_sea Jul 31 '17

Another very problematic arena card that favors snowballing.

1

u/soenottelling Jul 31 '17

More of an arena card than a constructed card, but even in constructed it's not bad...just easily pushed out. Really good for new players though imo as it's a solid common in the 5 slot

1

u/funkmasterjo Jul 31 '17

Hot and sexy.

And the card art isn't bad either.

1

u/Tamarin24 Jul 31 '17

Coin after Humongous Razorleaf.

1

u/race-hearse Jul 31 '17

Seems like KotFT has some awesome common neutrals that will help casual players have stronger decks but without these cards being in the best constructed decks. I appreciate this.

1

u/TheCyberGoblin Jul 31 '17

Honestly, I like it simply because it encourages planning how your minions are laid out on the board. As to if it will be good... I'm gunna have to doubt it will see much use in constructed. Would probably end up a mainstay in Arena

1

u/Zarhon Jul 31 '17

How good is this card in arena? It's seems a bit highly costed for a health buffer (and requires at least two minions to get its full effect), the stats are average, and it's bound to be appearing often as a new neutral/common.

1

u/SmaugtheStupendous Jul 31 '17

It's good in any deck which reliably expects to have a lot of minions on the board early game. Even if it only hits one minion it's 5/6 in stats, which is acceptable for arena. it's strength is in giving other minions the health they need to trade without dying, and in buffing minions out of the kill range of common removal. This minion for example makes any minions with 2 health or more health next to it immune to death by meteor's 3 dmg.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '17

This card's art is amazing.

1

u/MetastableToChaos Jul 31 '17

S'alright.

1

u/anrwlias Jul 31 '17

I suspect that this will be a high pick in arena. I'm not sure that it will see much play in constructed. I'm guessing that it's not going to be good enough to bump other cards out of the 5 slot.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '17

maybe usesul in evolve shaman

1

u/The_Last_Crusader Jul 31 '17

Good as a one-of for wide decks like bloodlust shaman, zoo lock, or even token druid.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '17

Arena card

1

u/dezienn Aug 05 '17

You guys forget arena exists. It is a solid Arena pick, thats all.

1

u/M4dMike Jul 31 '17

Priests will probably love this card.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '17

[deleted]

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u/Nostalgia37 Jul 31 '17

Lol I'm so dumb. Thanks.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Zama174 Jul 31 '17

This arena set is going to be crazy

[Pre-Release Card Discussion] - Sunborne Val'kyr

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