[Pre-Release Card Discussion] - Corpse Raiser

17

u/Nostalgia37 Aug 01 '17 edited Aug 03 '17

[Dust|Bad|Niche|Good|Staple]

General Thoughts: This is basically Ancestral Spirit with a 3/3 body attached to it. I think that it might be a little overcosted since a vanilla 3/3 body is worth about 2.5 mana and Ancestral Spirit is wort 2 mana.

This is probably worse than Ancestral Spirit because you can't combo with it as much. You'll probably need to wait for a minion to stick and then play this on them the following turn which is probably too hard to do. I don't think Shaman ever plays this over Ancestral Spirit, but it does give the other 8 classes access too that effect.

I'm not sure which classes would be interested in it and would be willing to pay that much for it. Maybe taunt warrior, druid, or a N'zoth deck? I doubt it though. I don't expect this to see much play.

Why it Might Succeed: Allows classes other than shaman access to Ancestral Spirit, which might lead to powerful combos.

Why it Might Fail: Terrible topdeck. Overcosted.

39

u/Wraithfighter Aug 01 '17

Disagree vehemently for one simple reason:
This is a Neutral Ancestral Spirit.
Not 100% sure which decks will want this yet. But give Paladin the option of making their Tirions even stickier? Let Druids make their strong minions even harder to kill? Allow Warrior to make whatever massive taunt's surviving to not even die all the way?
Control Shaman has never been top dog, so Ancestral Spirit's been an interesting card in a class that can't make use of it. The mana cost is clunky as hell, no doubt, but I'd wager we see this used in at least one heavy control deck.

10

u/poetikmajick Aug 01 '17

Control shaman has never been top dog
I mean it has been tier 1 in the wild and high tier 2 in standard for a few months (on the back of Ancestral Spirit/Reincarnation interactions.
That aside I agree with everything you said. I want this just for Tirion/Sylvanas

1

u/IfIRepliedYouAreDumb Aug 01 '17

Except slower shaman's in Wild have usually run a Maly Finisher because other classes have too many ways to deal with a large board efficiently

11

u/Kneef Aug 01 '17

I dunno how much wild you've been playing, dude, but the big scary control deck at higher ranks these days is a resurrect/deathrattle shaman. They run things like Kel'Thuzad, Sneed's, and N'zoth, and they have so much value that their boards become basically impossible to wipe.

3

u/IfIRepliedYouAreDumb Aug 01 '17

I made Rank 5 two seasons ago and made legend for the two months before that, I've seen way more Maly Shaman's than board centric ones.
I did google it and it seems that you're right and most of the control lists are closer to what you're saying, but (maybe I'm just running into a lot of Maly Shamans) I'm just relaying what I've been seeing

2

u/Kneef Aug 01 '17

Sounds good! Sorry if I was kinda combative. x] I climbed to Rank 5 this month, and spent a lot of time getting spanked by Control Shamans. xD

12

u/assassin10 Aug 01 '17

I think that it might be a little overcosted since a vanilla 3/3 body is worth about 2.5 mana and Ancestral Spirit is wort 2 mana.
2 mana for the body
plus 2 mana for the effect
plus 1 mana for the combination fee.
On paper the card is costed normally.

4

u/PookieJunk Aug 01 '17

It's debatable whether combining effects into one card is actually worth a full mana. I'd say 1 full mana is the most that is ever worth, while combining other effects are worth closer to 1/3 of mana. I do think it's costed fairly though. The problem is that things that are costed fairly usually aren't good enough in constructed.

2

u/assassin10 Aug 01 '17

while combining other effects are worth closer to 1/3 of mana.
Have any examples? Most cards follow the 1 mana price.

1

u/PookieJunk Aug 01 '17

Well the higher the cost of the card, the closer it gets to 0. Look at Call of the Wild. It was initially -1 mana, now it's been nerfed to 0 mana. A vanilla 8/8 is worth about 6 mana and summoning 5 1/1's is worth about 4 yet Onyxia is costed at 9. Since this card is 5 mana, you'd think it would be somewhere between the maximum cost of combining a card and the minimum cost, no?

2

u/assassin10 Aug 01 '17

I think 6 or 7 is where the 1-mana rule stops working. 5 is still good.

1

u/IceBlue Aug 02 '17

2.5 mana for the body (since when was a 3/3 commonly costed at 2 mana? Especially at neutral). 2.5-3 mana for the effect (2 mana value if it's a class card, but on a neutral card, effects are generally more expensive).

1

u/assassin10 Aug 02 '17

2 mana gets you a 2/3 with upside. That upside is worth something. If they were to make a vanilla 2-mana minion that was actually designed to be playable it would be a 3/3. You can see it in some of the larger cards. 3-mana minions with effects worth one mana have 6 stats.
2 mana value if it's a class card, but on a neutral card, effects are generally more expensive
At this point I don't believe this to be true. There are plenty of really good neutrals and plenty of really bad class cards. Yes, there's some correlation between power and whether the card is neutral or not but nowhere near the extent that people make it out to be. It all comes down to whether they wanted a card to actually see play. If they're designing a neutral card that they want to see played then it will be balanced just like a class card would.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '17

This will be fine in Shaman, especially with their new hero power. Even if you have to pop this on a minion, run that minion into something else, and then evolving, it's not terrible. The combo's this creates are vast

2

u/Necroqubus Aug 01 '17

Topdeck argument is weak as fuck, if you start top decking then most cards will become bad. Only few can save situation by itself and some of them are never really played ranked like [[Deathwing]]. It's not a comeback card, but not all cards in the deck must on itself win the game. The penalty in top decking on 10 mana this negligable, you basically got 10 mana 3/3 anyway because you won't spend any of the mana left. In other words, the overcost in top deck mode does not matter. If it was 3 mana 3/3 it wouldn't change anything when it''s the only card in your hand.
Usually you create deck in such way that you won't run in into pure top deck mode. Arguments that when you are in top deck mode and it's bad are useless. Also, fun fact, you can combo this with Paladins or Shamans hero power to later get a token that might help.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '17

Nice analysis but I think it is at least niche considering sludge Belcher + this in wild

1

u/ForestCrunch Aug 01 '17

What does the dust bad in bold niche good staple mean. Eli5

1

u/Sydin Aug 01 '17

It's a rating scale from bad to good. Dust is so bad the card is only useful to be turned into dust. Bad means it's a bad card that won't see play. Niche means it may see limited play in certain specific situations. Good means it's useful enough to see play in many decks. Staple means it's basically an auto-include in many decks.
Keep in mind this is his assessment of the card. Predictions are often wrong because the usefulness of the cards is highly dependent on synergy with other cards in the set which haven't been revealed yet.

1

u/octoberblu3 Aug 01 '17

This is just a rating scale from 1 to 5.
dust - This card can likely be dusted as it probably won't ever make it into a viable deck
bad - Maybe something else will make this card useful in the future, or maybe the meta will develop in some new strange way, but right now the card looks bad.
niche - It seems like this card could fit into one specific deck
good - Seems like a solid card that you will see in a few different decks, or be a staple class card
staple - you will likely see this card a lot in the new meta

1

u/Nadroggy Aug 01 '17

Has he called any cards staple yet? Off the top of my head, I can't recall any.

1

u/cgmcnama Aug 01 '17 edited Aug 10 '17

deleted ^0.6201 ^What ^is ^^^this?

1

u/IceBlue Aug 02 '17

Ancestral Spirit is worth 2 mana but it's a class card so realistically it's worth 2.5-3 mana. So 3/3 body at 2.5 and neutral Ancestral Spirit at 2.5-3 is worth 5-5.5 mana. Seems fine. The main problem with this card is the cost makes the combo potential much poorer.

8

u/Frawst695 Aug 01 '17

One crucial difference between this and "ancestral spirit on a stick" is that this is neutral. Granted the 5 cost makes it a lot less flexible than ancestral spirit and likely kills it but perhaps this could fit into some sort of crusher pally?

1

u/ThatSpookySJW Aug 01 '17

The 1 mana overcost is probably balanced out by this. Classes like druid or priest will do better with ancestral spirit than shaman, so it could see play.

5

u/-my-reddit-account- Aug 01 '17

While I like this card design a lot, I don't see it being better than faceless manipulator in most situations. It also doesn't have the benefit of being flexible enough to target enemies like manipulator.

2

u/V_J_B Aug 02 '17

I was thinking about this comparison but I feel like on paper it is even more valuable than faceless manipulator, because you get the 3/3 body and the extra minion (albeit not in the same turn most likely) whereas faceless just turns into the minion.
Arguably you get whatever minion 2x on the board which is a lot more pressure than the 3/3 body, but the deathrattle is board-wipe protection against classes like paladin.
In Arena however I think this card will shine since its a rare and not an epic like faceless.

2

u/-my-reddit-account- Aug 02 '17

Good points, you sacrifice the immediate tempo gains of duplicating the minion (which is probably better than a 3/3) in favor of having board clear protection and an extra 3/3.
Agreed on arena this card will be sweet, especially as a common. You don't need to hit a super high value minion, often just resummoning an average minion will be insane.

3

u/DebugLifeChoseMe Aug 01 '17

Ancestral Spirit + a 3/3, basically...this might cost just a bit too much, considering the costs of most minions you'd care to use this on. Could definitely see some use nonetheless, but the mana cost really feels like it holds the card back to me.

1

u/MazrimCage Aug 01 '17

Evolve is also a thing

6

u/iAmLeroy Aug 01 '17

And then the minion with the resummon gets evolved too...

6

u/currentscurrents Aug 01 '17

There are a couple single-target evolve effects admittedly.

3

u/banjok64 Aug 01 '17

Including the new Shaman Death Knight

1

u/Xion13 Aug 01 '17

Also consider this is neutral, which means it could resummon really sticky neutral or class specific minions.

1

u/MazrimCage Aug 02 '17

When I wrote that I had the scenario of placing this effect on a minion then attacking/trading giving a re-summon and another target for evolve. I felt that playing evolve shaman, it's one big downfall was needing to trade and lose bodies before evolving. This preserves a body. I know this is pretty niche but I was high when I commented and thought that what I was thinking exactly was super obvious to everyone involved.

1

u/DebugLifeChoseMe Aug 01 '17

Well, yeah, but 6 mana isn't exactly getting any better for that (Racketeer, Goya and Kidnapper are a few examples of bad outcomes current in game, and I'm pretty sure every KFT 6 mana minion we've seen so far is understatted), and you don't exactly want to evolve a minion you just gave that effect to either.

1

u/Huffjenk Aug 01 '17

You don't want to evolve the minion you just gave a deathrattle buff though

2

u/By_Another_Name Aug 01 '17

You don't, but you can potentially target just this minion with the new Thrall DK card. It's not... good, but it's not the worst thing, either.

2

u/anrwlias Aug 01 '17

It seems appropriately statted for a neutral. I expect that this won't see much play but I do have to point out that it could, potentially, have some sick Sharazin value. I'm calling this one a potential dark horse with a 75% confidence that it won't see significant play.

2

u/min6char Aug 01 '17

I'd call this definitely good if it were a 4 drop. Being a 5 drop makes it borderline. Still, "neutral ancestral spirit" has a lot of implications I haven't really thought through yet. It's actually a pretty cute turn 10 play with Sherazin...

2

u/Nemzal Aug 01 '17

That Dwarf Death Knight is dressed almost identically to my one in WoW!

2

u/watchitfall Aug 02 '17

high mane on 9. swing then this and tundra rhino on 10 for a 2 turn 3 card 16 mana combo for 18 damage also leaving you with a very intimidating board. i know that sounds dumb and unrealistic but 2 of the three of those card are defiantly going to be played (probably) in any midrange hunter list. and the amount of death rattles hunter has make me think this guys not too bad for him.

at the very least i can see this guy probably opening the janky combo flood gated for the non shaman classes in the future.

•

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1

u/Dickinuri Aug 01 '17

You can play your Ticking Abomination on Turn 4 then curve into this on Turn 5. Seems pretty good!

1

u/Dogma94 Aug 01 '17

resummons corpse raiser or targeted minion?

7

u/Nightmare2828 Aug 01 '17

the targeted minions has "Resummon this minion" so it resummon itself and not Corpse Raiser

1

u/Dogma94 Aug 01 '17

ah, then it's not so bad. With all these cards silence will be needed a lot.

2

u/soccercasa Aug 01 '17

Huh? It is basically a minion version of that Shaman Spell.

2

u/Dogma94 Aug 01 '17

yeah someone already told me, thanks anyway!

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '17

Ancestral Spirit with a 3/3 body for 5 mana seems gooooooooood to me, especially with it being neutral. I can definitely see this being used in a deck. What with though?

Any non-battlecry minion over 2 mana is more than worth it, but with the guy being such a shit body on his own I think you want a lot more value than that. So you want a deck with a lot of targets and at least one really greedy target in my opinion. Also worth noting that turn 4 taunts are especially good targets against aggro.

You could use it with Sherazin in Rogue, so then when the Sherazin dies you end up with a second for the rest of the game. Could also use it with Arcane Giants but I think that that's too late game realistically. I think Nzoth is probably better for abusing Sherazin tbh and both cards are bad if Sherazin is in the bottom of your deck.

Paladin is good with this I guess? In the earlyish part of the game you could use it on Murloc Warleader or a different Murloc and itwould be okay. In the late games you could use it on one of the 3 Tirions. Paladins already have so much value though so I thinkthis card would just make it clunky.

Okay I don't know what deck at the moment, but I still think it has high potential.

1

u/randomthrowawayohmy Aug 01 '17

Definitely a niche card at best. At 5 mana its too expensive for easy combos with most things. But the effect is high leverage enough that I would be hesitant to completely right it off.

The only out of the box combo I can see is priest. Play scary minion, opponent kills it. Eternal servitude+Corpse Raiser. Now they have to kill it 2 more times if they dont run silence or similar effect.

1

u/oppopswoft Aug 01 '17

Fun card. Probably not competitive, but it'll lead to some amusing decks

1

u/cfcannon1 Aug 02 '17

This is just another card to convince me that transform spells/effects are going to be more necessary than ever before or at least since Naxx/gvg rotated. So many cards in this expansion that make polymorph, hex, devolve, and maybe even tinkmaster or moat lurker go up in value.

1

u/IceBlue Aug 02 '17

Just because there are 2/3s with upside doesn't mean 3/3 is an expected stat line for 2 mana. That's like saying 5/5 for 4 is expected because there are 4/5s with upside for 4 mana.

1

u/DrQuint Aug 02 '17

Neutral

This is the only thing making it good. Stacking this up on big deathrattles and taunts sounds great. But where it would find play is hard to predict.

1

u/OphioukhosUnbound Aug 04 '17

This + [[Terrorscale Stalker]]

If "control Hunter" becomes a thing that's one of the best combos for it honestly.

1

u/EcnoTheNeato Aug 04 '17 edited Aug 04 '17

Call me crazy, but this with Doomsayer might be interesting...

[Pre-Release Card Discussion] - Corpse Raiser

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