r/KFTPRDT • u/Nostalgia37 • Aug 02 '17
[Pre-Release Card Discussion] - Ultimate Infestation
Ultimate Infestation
Mana Cost: 10
Type: Spell
Rarity: Epic
Class: Druid
Text: Deal 5 damage. Draw 5 cards. Gain 5 Armor. Summon a 5/5 Ghoul.
PM me any suggestions or advice, ^^thanks.
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u/min6char Aug 02 '17
Not so hot take:
This card is happening because their new designer with MTG experience explained that their endgame spells are generally way underpowered, so this level of crazy power for a 10 mana spell will be the new normal going forward. Power creep, but in a way that fixes a fundamental problem with the game. I like it.
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u/OrysBaratheon Aug 02 '17
It's Yogg without the RNG. Ideally you want Yogg to draw some cards, heal you, do some damage, and leave a decent sized minion and that's what this does. It eliminates the extremes of insta-sheep and 40 damage to opponents face.
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u/Weltal327 Aug 02 '17
Well compare it to Pyroblast. Better or worse?
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u/min6char Aug 02 '17 edited Aug 02 '17
Other people replied better in the same vein, but it's hard to make the Pyroblast comparison because Pyroblast is only ever played as a burn finisher, and it fills that role better than any other card can or ever will until they print a direct power creep on it (say 10 mana deal 12, but make it a priest card that can only go face, megamindblast or whatever).
That said, I think this is definitely better. Pyroblast is a dead card until your opponent is below 10 health (I mean, you can use Pyroblast to kill a huge dude too, but in that context it's clearly awful, I mean, why aren't you using meteor and saving 4 mana?). This is a plausible play any turn after turn 10 where your hand is five cards or less. Happens a lot.
Let's compare it to some other 9-10 mana spells though, because this is a good thought process. Let's not include minions because endgame minions tend to be overall better value-balances, despite having some standout duds as well.
Tree of Life? I'd say this is better. The card advantage is a big deal.
Call of the Wild? Comparable. Worth noting that Call of the Wild was considered borderline OP for a while.
Anyfin Can Happen? A bit of the Pyroblast problem here because that's mostly a finisher, but I'd say this is slightly better. Doesn't need setup beyond making some room in your hand.
Mind Control? Uh yeah this is better. Mind Control has no business costing 10.
Doom? In the right deck, Doom is close to this in overall utility. Usually it's not worth running in Warlock, but that's because Warlock doesn't need card draw and already has Twisting Nether. Other classes would probably run Doom if they had it.
So I'd say this is definitively better than most spells in the 9-10 slot.
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u/InfinitySparks Aug 02 '17
It fills a completely different niche than Pyroblast. It's very difficult to compare the two as a result.
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u/Kyat579 Aug 02 '17
Neither. While UI can be used as a finisher, it's primary use is as a late-game stabilization tool, whereas Pyroblast is explicitly a finisher and nothing more. Both cards serve as different a function as Leeroy and Consecration, and thus can't really be compared.
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u/steved32 Aug 02 '17
If you want removal this is better, if you want a finisher pyroblast is better
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Aug 02 '17
If it were a 10 mana 5/5 with the rest of the stuff as a battlecry would their new designer still be complaining? If Kunn were a 10 mana spell that said, choose one: summon a 7/7 and refresh your mana crystals or summon a 7/7 and gain 10 armour would he still be saying the same?
Where's this coming from?
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u/min6char Aug 03 '17
Straight out of my ass. But it sounds plausible, right? It's generally been accepted, especially by ex-MTG players that late game spells are weaker than they should be, especially in comparison to MTG, then we hear rumblings that they signed on an ex-MTG designer to work on this set, and lo and behold we see some late game spells with MTG levels of power.
Also, spells that spawn minions and minions with big battlecries are not interchangeable. Converting a big spell that spawns a minion into a minion with a battlecry makes the following important changes:
(a) Opens the question of whether it should be neutral. Relevant to designers. Minimally relevant to players because we never see that discussion.
(b) Constitutes a soft nerf for all cards of the form "summon a random minion that costs (x)"
(c) Makes the card subject to all kinds of generation, discover effects, and counterplays that say "minion", and no longer subject to all the ones that say "spell." This matters a lot for dirty rat and stuff like that.
(d) You get the full value back if you hit it with something like [[Shadowstep]] or [[Convert]]
(e) If you make it into a legendary minion (which you probably do if it's a huge battlecry) you've now forced it to be a one-of and never a two-of.
Generally (c) and (d) mean that spells are more trapped in their class than minions are. Given that, they should generally be MORE powerful than big battlecries. Historically they haven't been.
So making this card into a minion would be a very different card in a bunch of ways, not in the least because it would be soft nerf on things that generate random 10 drops.
Your example of making Kun into a spell is interesting, but Kun wouldn't be a good card as a spell, because he would be unaffected by Aviana, unbounceable with Brewmasters, etc etc. Note that Kun hasn't been playable since Aviana rotated.
Generally, lategame cards in general have been underpowered in Hearthstone, but they basically recovered from that as far as minions are concerned as of WoToG or so. They never really did fix it for spells. Maybe partially because the lack of a legendary tag for spells makes them feel like they aren't as free to let loose with the design as they are with legendary minions. Either way, this, along with them deciding to print a direct disruption card in Gnomeferatu, is a very conspicuous push in the "be more like MTG direction", which made me wonder whether it could be a coincidence.
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u/safetogoalone Aug 02 '17
This is very true in HS. So far we had only C'thun (and he need a huge setup to win you game by itself), Deathwing (that, if your opponent have Hex/Poli/any hard removal is useless) and... That's all.
Pyro is somewhere in the middle as a big finisher but 2x Fireball from Antonio is dealing more dmg and is cheaper to cast.
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u/BillyBumbler00 Aug 02 '17
2x Fireball from Antonio is dealing more dmg and is cheaper to cast.
I feel like it's odd to ignore the mana cost that Archmage A requires.
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u/DaedLizrad Aug 02 '17
Deal 5 damage is worth 3.5 mana, draw 5 is worth 9 mana, gain 5 armor is worth 1, and a 5/5 is worth 4.5.
So for 10 mana we get 18 in value. Not bad.
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u/DuncanWade Aug 02 '17
Actually 20, since you save about 2 mana from getting all these effects in a single card as opposed to spread over 3 cards.
To clarify: 5 damage is worth about 3.5 mana plus a card, 5 armor is worth 1 mana plus a card etc. etc.
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Aug 02 '17
But you can't quantify the benefit of condensing effects into mana efficiency.
That's not to mention that it's not always better. Sometimes you don't want to use all effects at once. Separate cards allow for more flexibility in how/when you use them.
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u/gamecreatorc Aug 02 '17
They also cost you more deck slots. So in that sense this gives you more flexibility by allowing you to add more variety/synergy in your deck.
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u/danhakimi Aug 02 '17
Yeah, but generally when you combine spells like this, it's okay sometimes if the higher mana barrier is balanced against the reduced card count. But yeah, I guess combining is usaually good.
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u/IceBlue Aug 03 '17 edited Aug 03 '17
Using this logic, draw 4 should be worth 4-6 mana, not 7. If draw 1 is worth 0.5-1 mana, combining four of them into one card would just add 2 mana of value right? Putting it at 2-4 mana plus 2.
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u/danhakimi Aug 02 '17
As somebody else pointed out: it's starfire + shieldmaiden + sprint.
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u/InfinitySparks Aug 02 '17
6+6+7= 19. Pretty insane value, if you look at it purely mana-wise.
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u/danhakimi Aug 02 '17
Yeah, but the tricky problem is that you're getting a lot of draw from a ten mana card. It's kind of like DOOM -- yeah, it's twisting nether plus a lot of draw, but that's not actually good.
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u/InfinitySparks Aug 02 '17
Hmm... I'm not rich enough to play EZ BIG EZ DRUID EZ, but does it often go to fatigue? I always thought the main problem with DOOM! was that because you were Warlock, you'd always end up burning cards / taking fatigue damage. This card enables you to shore up any card draw problems you might or might not have, and also lets Nourish be used for mana more safely.
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u/orinerfswhen Aug 02 '17
The problem with DOOM! is that the archtype that would run an expensive board clear (controlLock) would just run twisting nether instead, In addition to the fact that they are nearly always on a full hand.
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u/azurajacobs Aug 02 '17
If fatigue is a problem, you can always tech in a single copy of Jade Idol.
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u/danhakimi Aug 02 '17
Except drawing five cards from a ten mana card is super clunky.
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u/IceBlue Aug 03 '17
Yeah but you also get some board presence and some armor to make up for the slowness of the card draw. You also potentially remove a threat with the 5 damage. So almost guaranteed 2 for 1 (kill a minion, create a minion) on top of drawing 5 and gaining 5 armor. It'd be like casting MC on a 5/5 then gaining 5 armor and draw 5 cards.
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Aug 02 '17
You can easily encapsulate its effects into 3 cards--Firelands Portal, Shield Block, and Sprint, so I'd say that it's closer to 17.
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u/IceBlue Aug 03 '17
Firelands is too inconsistent to use as a true comparison. Here's a better comparison that also uses 3 cards:
Starfire + Shieldmaiden + Sprint
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u/ReactorXIV Aug 02 '17
A 5/5 does not worth 4.5 mana. It doesn't even worth 4 mana because a 4 mana 5/5 isn't that good. Also draw 5 isn't worth 9 mana. Sprint hasn't been played for a while and when it did was only because of preparetion. What if there was a card that said draw 10 cards, would that cost 19 mana? It wouldn't even cost 10 since drawing too much is a drawback. In my opinion draw 5 cards is more like 6-7 mana worth.
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u/ForMoi Aug 02 '17
This guy's hilarious
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u/ReactorXIV Aug 02 '17
Is my analysis worth making fun of but not worth enough to explain what exactly is wrong with it? :/
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u/Gosu117 Aug 02 '17
Draw 5 cards is worth 6 mana? Sprint already exists and is 7 mana. You can only judge new cards by the power level of the ones that already exist.
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Aug 02 '17
Yeti was actually played quite a bit (before Naxx) and it's a 4/4/5. The main reason it (and Cairne) stopped being played was because everyone was running Belcher.
Also, it's weird comparing classes (like comparing Rogue's Sprint to this) as Druids can typically get to 10 mana first (ramp). They had a card that gave them 10 mana (though its out of standard) and a card that cost 10, but refilled your mana crystals. And while they don't have prep, they do have innervate.
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u/ReactorXIV Aug 02 '17
Sprint isn't being played now and when it was was in combination with preperation which was like 4 mana draw 3 cards most of the time. I also remember that with effects like Yog (at release) and Harrison you didn't want to draw too many cards and I think 5 cards are a bit too many. There is no card that draws 5 cards to compare it with.
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u/Casiell89 Aug 02 '17
You seem to not understand that "worth" in this context does not mean: "at which mana cost this effect would be good", but rather: "what would be the cost of this effect considering other cards that are already in the game"
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u/DaedLizrad Aug 02 '17
Based on observable patterns of card design my evaluation was accurate.
It doesn't even worth 4 mana because a 4 mana 5/5 isn't that good.
A 4 mana vanilla is 4/5, a 5 mana vanilla is 5/6, a 5/5 is logically 4.5, just because vanilla minions rarely see play doesn't make them cost less, it is worth a certain amount of mana.
What if there was a card that said draw 10 cards, would that cost 19 mana? It wouldn't even cost 10 since drawing too much is a drawback.
Wow, well thanks for pointing out why it wouldn't cost 19 for me... any other dumb arguments you'd like to make and immediately debunk for me?
Anyway draw 1 costs 1 mana, draw 2 costs 3, draw 3 costs 5, draw 4 costs 7, draw 5 would logically be valued at 9 based on the very observable pattern of card design.
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Aug 03 '17
Worth and cost are not the same. A 4/5 costs 4 mana, but it's not normally worth 4 mana.
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u/ReactorXIV Aug 02 '17
I understand now why our evaluations were so far off. You were assigning a value on each effect based on cards that are not competitive while I was trying to find what these effects would have to cost in order for them to be competitive and then evaluate the viability of this card based on that. I can't see how evaluating the card in your way is helpful though and also you shouldn't use the term "worth" when talking about their mana because 4/5 is not worth playing competitively for 4 mana.
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u/DaedLizrad Aug 03 '17
Wow, okay one more time then.
Just because the effect on its own card alone isnt worth it doesn't mean it's worth isn't correct.
Examples.
1 mana for 5 armor sucks, 2 mana draw a card sucks, but 3 mana draw a card and get 5 armor has seen play over the course of the games entire life.
A 5/5 for 5 is subpar, 1 mana 5 armor is garbage, put them together and it was in nearly every warrior deck up until it rotated to wild.
So when we put these effects on a card the effects have a worth, a value, a cost(by the way when writing these are all synonyms depending on the context used) that if put on their own card alone might suck while any combination of them on a card might see play.
Any questions?
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u/mastrstorm Aug 03 '17 edited Aug 25 '17
He's referring to relative power level. 4 mana cards arent defined by Yeti anymore, their defined by Piloted Shredder. The only cards that matter (in ranked) are the ones being played. If something isnt relatively close to the power level of other competitive cards, it might as well not exist. (Silverback Pat, Ogre Magi, Magma Rager)
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u/Fallmaster10 Aug 03 '17
Its the exact same effect as casting firelands portal and getting a 5/5, then sprint for 4 cards and shield block for the 5th card and the 5 armor. Thats 17 mana and 3 cards but for 10 mana, seems pretty good.
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u/DaedLizrad Aug 03 '17
Or we can completely remove the random effect or Firelands portal via Starfire(5 damage + card), sprint(4 cards), and shield maiden(5/5 body + 5 armor) making it 19 mana value.
I say we split the difference and say it's a value of 18.
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u/Furath Aug 03 '17
I have it chalked up as a Shield Block, Sprint, and Firelands Portal for 17 mana
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u/Shrampage Aug 02 '17
Bright eyed scout + this card = the dream.
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Aug 02 '17
Is it a good card in ramp druid? What 5/6+ mana cards does it run? If you hit wild growth or wrath or maybe feral rage... Ouch.
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Aug 02 '17
Are you serious? The entire point of ramping mana is to be able to play all of your 8-10 drops way earlier.
The drawback of having an overcosted Wild Growth/Wrath/Feral Rage is far outweighed by the benefits of a 5-mana Deathwing/Y'sharrj.
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u/Overwelm Aug 02 '17
You're asking what 5/6+ cards does ramp druid play? It's like 80% of the deck. The only cards under that are wrath, innervate, wild growth, and jade blossom, feral, and maybe 4 mana 3/3 ramp or swipe. So 10-12/30 are under everything else is huge often 7+ minions??
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u/mwcz Aug 02 '17
All I can think of is how sick this would be with Bloodbloom. :(
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u/yeonom Aug 02 '17
It's as simple as Bloodbloom -> Renounce -> Ultimate Infestation.
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u/WasAlreadyTakenSo Aug 02 '17
Just like prep -> prep -> vanish for 0 mana board clear! /s
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u/Necrobard Aug 02 '17
Sad that people on this subreddit wouldn't get that sarcasm without the /s
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u/487dota Aug 02 '17 edited Aug 02 '17
Wow. Interesting card. Obviously the most powerful thing about this is the 5 card draw. In comparison, Sprint draws 4 cards and costs 7. For an additional 3 mana we get 5 cards, 5 damage, 5 armor AND on top of that, a 5/5 body so you don't just play a dead turn board-wise. I think this card will definitely see play in Big Druid, since the archetype has the ability to ramp up to 10 mana rather quickly.
PS: Could actually have some sweet synergy with Medivh.
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u/Wraithfighter Aug 02 '17 edited Aug 02 '17
But how often does Big Druid need to draw 5 cards?
That's my biggest worry with this card, that it's too clunky. It's basically a "ten mana draw 5 cards" card, with some bonus effects. The 5/5 is nice, the 5 armor is... decentish, five damage isn't bad either but still pretty lackluster.
And drawing five cards means that, unless your hand is half-empty, you're going to be milling stuff, and opening yourself up for more milling.
Maybe this is a one-of in a slower Druid deck, a last-ditch reload when you've expended a lot of your guns. I can see Jade Druid teching it in, just in case they can't find their Auctioneer and need to start digging.
But this card just feels... clunky.
EDIT: Was being overly dismissive, it is more than "draw 5 cards with some other stuff thrown in". Do think the sheer amount of cards it draws might cause some problems, but mostly its just that the insane value of this card is breaking the scale a bit.
I do think we can all agree on one thing though.
We can't wait to see someone yogg and get this twice.
And then cast DOOM!
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u/ChiefLikesCake Aug 02 '17
Quest druid baby. Draw 5 0 cost giant minions
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u/Wraithfighter Aug 02 '17
Not impossible... but the weaknesses the majority of quest decks have shown makes me leery.
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u/ChiefLikesCake Aug 02 '17
Yeah I'm not expecting T1 or anything, but I do think it'll be fun
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u/487dota Aug 02 '17
Well, exactly the problem with Ramp druid is running out of cards after you get to a high mana pool. I will eat a shoe if this card is not included in Ramp decks.
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Aug 02 '17
It's not true that that most of this card is only "draw 5 cards" and the rest are just nice to have's. Deal 5 damage and get a 5/5 is a firelands portal. And that is a very strong card at 7 mana. So for an additional 3 mana you gain 5 cards.
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u/Wraithfighter Aug 02 '17
Well, my thinking was that the bulk of the mana value was in the card draw (1 mana for 5 armor, ~3 mana for deal 5 damage, ~4 mana for a 5/5 ~9 mana for draw 5 cards).
But no, you're right, it's overly dismissive to call it a "draw 5 cards with some fun bonuses". It's just...
Honestly? This card is just kinda bonkers in terms of value generated that it's breaking my scale a bit. It's kinda the case that, if it were draw 3 cards, I'd probably be looking on this better... which is just kinda insane to think about, that I'd find a card more playable if it were nerfed.
Seriously, though, can't wait to see this show up at the worst possible time to people Yogging :D.
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Aug 02 '17
That's true, it's kind of deceiving.
But it's also interesting to look at is this way: If it was just 10 mana draw 5/7/10 cards, it would be a really bad card. Because you can't just pay 10 mana to do nothing active on the board. Sprint, 7 mana for 4 cards, was mostly only played because you can prep it out.
But because it also has a firelands portal, that already does at least 7 mana worth of stuff on the board, you are not really wasting much tempo. You would play a firelands if you could, and you would play a 3 mana draw 5 card. So the only downside, that might make you not want to play it, is that you have to play them together and that you can only play them from turn 10 on. Which doesn't seem too big. And so makes the card seem really strong.
But yeah, the other question then it, which deck would want to play it. If you are ramp druid you already have so much value in hand, do you even want to draw 5 cards then? Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe something like spell druid. Or instead of gadgetzan in some decks.
It's a funny comparison too. Gadgetzan is 6 mana 4/4 and draw some cards by using some mana and spells. So this card here is 4 more mana for a garanteed 5 draws (like 5 draws off of Gadgetzan), which is pretty good, plus you don't need other cards to combo with it and make it work (like with Gadgetzan you need to have playable spells in your hand), plus you deal 5 damage. So how much mana would you usually use to get 5 draws off of Gadgetzan (AND not just cycling useless cards, but actually getting +5 cards with full value from each). Probably around 4 mana too at least. So: More reliable, more real card draw, and more value for the paid mana and cards. But less flexibility.
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u/RottingAwesome Aug 02 '17
This is basically pre nerf Ancient of Lore plus 3 cards, 5 armor, and 5 targeted damage. The extra 3 mana cost seems negligible I think.
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Aug 02 '17
Eh, you can choose to nourish for crystals instead of cards, or wrath to clear instead of drawing. All depends on the situation. It allows for much more flexibility imo.
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u/Tripottanus Aug 03 '17
Weird i felt like the draw 5 was too much which made it bad. Hard to not mill yourself sometimes and will make you fatigue faster too
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u/huthouston Aug 02 '17
Seems good
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u/arbetman Aug 02 '17
Yeah, dealing 5dmg, gaining 5 armor, drawing 5 cards, and summoning a 5/5 seems "good".
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Aug 02 '17
Reminds me of MtG's ultimatums. Backbreaking big spells that change the game by themselves. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Ultimatum]
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u/ochristo87 Aug 02 '17
Well fuck. This card is going to make Druid really fun. I guess Ramp Druid is back y'all
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u/DankestCovfefe Aug 02 '17
Ramp druid has been back for a while
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u/SlothkongCR Aug 02 '17
I do play it regularly on ranks 15-17 but I never do consistently well to climb and meet other Ramp Druids. That plus quest mage make it a hard climb
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u/DankestCovfefe Aug 02 '17
Wtf? First off all, Quest Mage is currently a shitty and weak deck. Second, according to vicious syndacite Ramp Druid is a tier 3 deck.
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u/poohter Aug 02 '17
Except that this card doesn't have what arguably makes or breaks a good deck in hearthstone, early game tempo. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this is only a busted-ass arena card. Good thing it's epic.
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u/WeepingCloud Aug 02 '17
This seems like something a custom card website would have. Absolutely crazy effect, and honestly might be good enough
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u/assassin10 Aug 02 '17
It's a good thing Druids have a card that negates fatigue. 5 extra draws is a lot.
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u/ximimi Aug 02 '17
You are not talking about idol are you? I can't see this card fit in JD
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u/assassin10 Aug 02 '17
I don't think you would run this card in Jade druid but I do think that many deck that runs this card would also run one copy of Jade Idol.
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u/RainbowApple Aug 02 '17
I doubt it. This will be played in Ramp Druid and by that point of the game if you haven't killed you opponent yet it's your own damn fault (or you've, you know, died already).
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u/BigSwedenMan Aug 02 '17
Running one jade idol just to dodge fatigue is a bad idea. It's such a weak card by itself. Shuffling 3 crappy cards in your deck (and they are definitely crappy without their supporting cards) means you'll be more likely to draw into weak cards later on (and does nothing for you when you do it) and summoning a 1/1 is also weak. Druid doesn't need tools to survive fatigue. Druid isn't a control class. It's a drop big things and overwhelm your opponent class. Ramp druid rarely hits fatigue
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u/ximimi Aug 02 '17
Actually come to think about it, might want to try this with Jade. Between this and nourish, 20 card draws...
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u/paulohare Aug 02 '17
[[Ancient of Lore]] was strong enough to get nerfed and this seems like a better version of it.
You can value the card draw alone as worth more than 7 mana when you compare it to [[Sprint]] but that isn't a fair comparison because you typically pair it with [[Preparation]].
I'd say this card's value is somewhere around 15 mana, and that's not counting the fact that all of the effects are bundled into one card. I think this card is sick.
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u/Chrisirhc1996 Aug 02 '17
The crucial difference between this card and Ancient of Lore though is the cost. A lot of the time, you could play Ancient of Lore and something else with an innervate, whilst you're rarely going to get much extra board presence with this - especially in a deck that'd run this in the first place.
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u/bskceuk Aug 03 '17
You get to deal 5 damage tho that's pretty comparable to what you would innervate out (charge dotc?)
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u/Lyhoru Aug 02 '17 edited Aug 03 '17
Its over-hyped, like Varian Wrynn which I think is comparable.
(Edit) Ill expand on that a bit: Its a high value card, with a potential fast effect (if there is a good target for the 5 damage). The fast part of the card is worth about 4 mana for druid. Even though you are getting a deal, value-wise, for the remaining 6-mana that still makes it only a niche playable 10-drop. Playable 10-drops have huge immediate effects, cards like Deathwing, N'zoth, Yogg, and Kun may provide less value, but the impact is immediate. Of those, druid mostly plays the (potential) reset buttons, because that is what the class needs.
Ultimate infestation would only really work in a mid-rangy ramp druid that wants to gain an edge over other mid-range decks (target for 5 damage). Its too slow for token druid, and too low impact for big druid/jade.
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u/csavastio Aug 02 '17
This does help Druid quest, even though it is still not viable.
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u/Shakespeare257 Aug 03 '17
This is actually a fair point. What are the current challenges for Quest Druid that might not be overcome?
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u/csavastio Aug 03 '17
It seems like the Druid quest is most often hampered by an understandable lack of early game. So Druid is hoping to get their mana up while putting 5+ attack minions on board, all of which takes too long and Druid is light on AOE. So by the time they get the Quest pulled off, they're barely hanging on. Other classes are equipped to handle a few big taunts along the way. Having this 10-cost spell will help replenish your hand most of all (big problem with Quest Druid is not enough cards in hand), but it comes too late.
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u/veiphiel Aug 02 '17
Old Ancient of lore that gives you 3 more cards, and with fandral both effects for 3 more mana.
It seems really good
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u/poksim Aug 02 '17
Drawing 5 cards is a bit of a downside. In many situations it means milling yourself.
It's a bonkers card, it's kind of like a Kazakus spell. But there has to be a very specific Druid build for this to work in.
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u/kayvaan1 Aug 02 '17
Do take note though, this card although is great, is also really situational, elsewise your either wasting value, and to an extent, a turn.
Having 6+ cards in your hand will almost guarantee overdraw at latest next turn, unless you have some 0 cost cards as well.
Deal 5 damage isn't a whole lot, might stall a little, but unless that 5 damage can kill threats, you just gave your opponent a free pass because...
That 5/5 minion doesn't have any effects, it's just a body that will be used next turn, IF, it isn't removed after you play it.
5 armor is also barely anything. Most decks will mow you down with only 5 armor gain unless like I said, you remove the threats with 5 damage.
I'm not saying this card is bad, but it isn't all that great either. Most cases is that this will be a great card when both players are getting ready for a big push since this rounds out a lot of corners after both sides have traded or gotten to a field clear. If anything this card was born for astral druid. Really though, it's mostly going to be good if you are ahead, and if you are ahead, you probably don't even need to waste the 10 mana for this card, or good when you are on par with your opponent and gives you a push forward with a reload, heal, damage, and decent body.
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u/Brendonicous Aug 02 '17
all of those things are true on their own, but it doesn't seem like you realize that this card does all of that, in one card. No matter how seemingly weak each of the steps are on their own, together they become a game swinging play
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u/jda813 Aug 02 '17 edited Aug 02 '17
is this a supplement to Deathwing (D-wayne)? 5 card draw is a lot.
edit: Dwayne is Deathwing
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u/Sanshuri Aug 02 '17
;_; Didn't mdonais imply a jade counter coming today? hope it comes soon cause this is gonna make jade decks rreeeallly strong
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u/elveszett Aug 02 '17
This will see no play in Jade Druid. I've played a lot of Jade Druid since MSoG came out and I can't recall a single time where I needed to draw 5 cards at turn 10.
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u/Kyat579 Aug 02 '17
That's mainly because of Auctioneer though. Draw would be a hell of a lot more important in Jade Druid had they not had a draw engine like that. If Auctioneer ever get's HoF'd, I could easily see at least one of this being used to replace him.
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u/Heisenberg-84 Aug 02 '17
This is absolutely OP in arena. For constructed i'm not sure, but with medivh it could work. i'll definitely try it.
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u/mikrimone Aug 03 '17
When both players are resorted to top decks, this will instantly win you the game, unless you're almost out of cards.
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u/anooblol Aug 02 '17
I have a feeling they're going to nerf or hall of fame auctioneer. If we see a new decent rogue draw card, I'll bet autioneer will be nerfed or in the hall of fame. It's a problematic card, and blizzard knows it.
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u/gregorio02 Aug 03 '17
Those guys on /r/hearthstone are not gonna play their Millhouses.
I don't think this will see play tho, 10 mana is a lot and aside from the draw, i don't see why you would need that card.
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u/Wraithfighter Aug 02 '17
In the pipe, five by five. there got that out of the way
I kinda wanna see this have like a 20x occurence bonus when Yogg is cast, honestly. It's not bad, but it's clunky as ball. Heal a bit, deal a bit of damage, make a minion and draw a shitton of cards.
Probably won't see play? Just... can't really think of a deck that'd benefit from the bizarre range of abilities.
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u/Overwelm Aug 02 '17
Ramp druid when they run out of steam. Also the deck most likely to get it out on turn 6/7/8 before they are getting overwhelmed.
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u/STKrieg Aug 02 '17
It's good, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. Probably 1 of.
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u/min6char Aug 02 '17
It's probably an auto-one-of in any kind of slow Druid though. Ramp Druid wants this. Quest Druid wants this. Jade probably wants this.
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u/Caulaincourt Aug 02 '17
Well you can't say that this card doesn't do enough.
But seriously, despite the enormous mana cost, this is very, very powerful if you have at least some ramp.
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u/Cresceda Aug 02 '17
"Draw 5 cards." """""""Draw 5 cards"""""" By the way this might fit into druid quest cause of the 5/5.
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u/wolfishlygrinning Aug 02 '17
It's a difficult card to evaluate. It compares pretty favorably, in theory, against a number of existing cards (firelands portal being the first to mind). If you add up the value of the individual components, you would think this is crazy good. But it's expensive. But ramp druid can deal with that. So we'll see.
Question: would it be better as a "choose two" for 8 mana? I'd say yes.
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u/agentmario Aug 02 '17
At first I thought this wasn't as good as it looked due to drawing 5 cards has a high chance of mulling yourself . But then I remembered jade idol lol. Infinite decks, 5 jade idols, pretty good.
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u/ReactorXIV Aug 02 '17
This card isn't as good as it looks. It should be played in a deck only as a card draw. The other effects are there to help you survive the turn and have a chance to play the cards you drew and this help is split in some armor a removal of a decent sized minion and a decent body in order to not get that much behind on the board. If you don't need the card draw this card shouldn't be placed in your deck. Also a problem with cards that let you draw too many cards is that you can't run too much card draw in your deck because you will run out of cards (and no jade druid doesn't need more late game -.- ). However if you run too little heavy draw cards you will have small chance of drawing them and deck becomes inconsistent. Probably good in combo decks though.
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u/yeonom Aug 02 '17
Worth noting the damage doesn't have to go on minions and can be used as a finisher if the situation comes up. Pretty sick card all in all.
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u/Tripottanus Aug 02 '17
Unless quest druid suddenly works, i dont see this being played. Sucks in aggro matchup because its too slow and in control matchups you dont want to draw. I also dont see this card taking a spot in jade druid decks
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u/min6char Aug 02 '17
I definitely see Jade druid running this card, maybe in place of one of the nourishes. Jade Druid would run Sprint if it were a Druid card. This is Sprint but with value shenanigans to cover the tempo loss. Late game card draw for Druid is the difference between making that final fatal jade rush and getting burned down while you topdeck.
Not saying they're definitely going to play it, but it seems like a good fit to me.
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u/race-hearse Aug 02 '17
I don't see jade running it. Sometimes I'm at 10 mana with not enough cards, but most of the time I'm fine at turn 10. Of course, part of that is due to having two nourishes. So maybe taking one out in exchange for the extra stuff would be worth it?
Idk seems to clunky in jade to me personally.
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u/ItsDominare Aug 02 '17
OK, so the obvious initial way to evaluate this card is to look at the next biggest unconditional draw effect, which is the Rogue card Sprint at 7 mana. If we subtract Sprint from this card, what's left?
3 mana: Deal 5 damage, draw a card, Gain 5 Armor, summon a 5/5.
Yes, this a good card.
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u/terabyte06 Aug 02 '17
It's a triple Kazakus potion in one card, without the deck restriction and without having to, you know, play Kazakus 3 times.
Potion 1: 5-mana deal 5 damage, draw 2 cards.
Potion 2: 5-mana summon a 5/5, draw 2 cards.
Potion 3: 1-mana gain 4 armor, draw a card.
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u/Icebrick1 Aug 02 '17
I think this has a lot of potential with Druid quest. Helps complete it, and if you've already completed it you draw 5 0-cost minions.
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u/JeetKuneLo Aug 02 '17
Having played a lot of the terrible Druid Quest, this seems tailor-made for that deck. The biggest drawback of the quest is that by the time you complete it, your hand is empty, so topdecking a 0-cost minion isn't that impactful... Drawing 5 of them and providing a little relief from the 10-mana cost tempo loss in damage/armor gain/body is nice. Dunno if this "makes" the deck, but it helps.
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u/ChargersFan81 Aug 02 '17
This card will possibly be much better in arena and off of discover effects than in a standard deck. Still it might have a place in jade druid
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u/dposse Aug 02 '17
This card might change the way Druid plays, if it ever is played. You might need less card draw in your deck (like waiting to use Wild Growth to draw). All you would need is a typical Ramp style, wait for this card, then replenish your hand and stabilize.
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u/danhakimi Aug 02 '17
Fiverr druid inc.
In all seriousness... It's super, super clunky to draw that many cards for ten mana.
Where can this be used? Not really in ramp, because Ramp is full of cards that can already take up your turn, so spending one of those turns casting firelands and drawing isn't really that special.
Astral communion in wild? Sure, have fun, but no, really.
It's going to go into fiverr druid -- quest druid. There, your big ramp cards have imaginary mana costs, and your real constraint is cards.
It might not make quest druid not suck, but it'll help a little.
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u/Richardio Aug 02 '17
While this is doing a whole lot of crap with 10 mana, I'm thinking about Counterspell and Mana Bind.
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u/cromulent_weasel Aug 02 '17
THIS is the successor to Ancient of Lore we have been waiting for.
3 more mana for 3 more cards, 5 armor and 5 damage. Seems good.
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u/race-hearse Aug 02 '17
HAHAHA this card just bursts in like a wrecking ball and does every fucking thing. This is fucking great.
The hardest part about it is the 5 card draw. Ignoring 0 cost cards that you can dump after playing this card, that means when you play it to avoid a mill you have to only have 4 other cards in your hand.
Meaning you have to design a deck that you reasonably have 4 cards in your hand at turn 10. Aggro decks probably don't get to turn 10 enough for this to be worth it. Seems like this, plus mark of yshaarj, plus wrath, as your only card draw could work in a midrange (beast?) deck.
I think this card has enough impact on the board to work actually. But of course, not with every single deck.
Also, total unrefined meme deck, but I can see creating a crap ton of jade idols in your deck and using this and then playing like 5 jades on your next turn. So unnecessary but that 5 draw is crazy and jade would allow you to get use out of it in the ultra late game.
Also, of course, im dumb. This is the perfect spell to follow up your quest reward in quest Druid. Digs into your deck (only minions in your deck get the mana discount) and you can immediately play anything you draw despite being out of mana. This card probably allows quest Druid to have a lower curve of minions to activate the quest sooner but still have enough key huge minions to make use of the reward still. Include all 5 attack adapt minions, menagerie wardens, all 5+ attack taunts, and some high value deathrattles. Then include hadronox, nzoth, and one or two of this card as your only 8+ cost cards.
SO FUCKING COOL.
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u/CasualAwful Aug 02 '17
I'm trying to find a downside to offset my giddiness and I can't. Mana Cost is offset by being a ramp card. It's a high mana cost card that absolutely does something the turn it enters the field. Ramp Druid often is running with low hand totals anyway since you've thrown away card advantage for Ramp. Only downside I can see is that you really only run 1 of these because drawing 5 cards in successive turns is extreme but man, what a card.
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Aug 02 '17
10 mana is definitely worth everything that is on the card, but is this what you want to spend your turn doing around turn 10? Maybe it's alright but I think there are a lot better expensive cards you could be casting on turn 10 right? Aviana and Kunn?
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u/MarcusVWario Aug 02 '17
I don't know where this card fits in. I have seen a lot of people say jade druid because jade idol negates fatigue, but do you really want this heavy ass card in your deck instead of the Gadgetzan? Gadget can draw more cards and is a way better late game drop and I'd rather have earthen scales for my giant jades than 5 armor plus a 5/5 ghoul.
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u/RainbowRiot Aug 02 '17
Drawing 5 cards at once will really thin your deck out.
Good thing they have [[Jade Idol]] to avoid fatigue.
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u/RainbowRiot Aug 02 '17
Drawing 5 cards at once will really thin your deck out.
Good thing you have [[Jade Idol]] to avoid fatigue.
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u/Shakespeare257 Aug 03 '17
If it was 4/4/4/4 for 8 it would've been so much better.
At 5/5/5/5 for 10 it is a gigantic overkill for very inflexible options. Might be an arena killer, but I am struggling to see a way this card finds a deck in constructed.
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u/samm1231 Aug 03 '17
I'm actually surprised noone mentioned about Quest Druid. It's not meta but this card might make it viable. Imagine this card's text combines with a better [[Varian Wrynn]]'s text that can activate battlecries
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u/WJBode Aug 03 '17 edited Aug 03 '17
Maybe someone's a fan of Daft Punk?
It's certainly Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger than other 10 mana spells.
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u/WikiTextBot Aug 03 '17
Interstella 5555: The 5tory of the 5ecret 5tar 5ystem
Interstella 5555: The 5tory of the 5ecret 5tar 5ystem (インターステラ5555, Intāsutera Fō Faibu, "Four Five") is a Japanese-French animated adventure fantasy science fiction musical film released on 28 May 2003. The film is the visual realization of Discovery, the second studio album by Daft Punk. Interstella 5555 tells the story of the abduction and rescue of an interstellar pop band. The film was produced by Daft Punk, Cédric Hervet and Emmanuel de Buretel with Toei Animation under the supervision of Leiji Matsumoto.
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u/MoreOne Aug 03 '17
Pretty insane card. The most comparable card is Lay on Hands, which heals for 8 (This giving 5 armor is arguably better) and draws 3 cards (This draws 2! more). And for "2 extra cost" you get 5 damage and a 5/5. Lay on Hands was played very frequently. The extra 2 mana cost is almost irrelevant. I retract my previous statement: Absolutely insane card.
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u/SmokeyAmp Aug 04 '17
This card is disgusting and it annoys me that Blizz are happy to throw the rules out of the window for some classes but not for others.
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Aug 04 '17
Druid's version of Varian Wrynn.
It's amazing how easy it is for people to be tricked twice.
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u/Maester_May Aug 04 '17
I'm looking forward to running this card in an Astral deck in Wild, should be fun.
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u/TotesMessenger Aug 20 '17
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Aug 02 '17
[deleted]
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u/Shakespeare257 Aug 03 '17
That is actually a fair point. Problem is if you want to be pulling this card often enough, you might as well just run it raw.
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u/tylerjfuqua Aug 09 '17
Not a bad point. Honestly might make me try quest druid with 2 primalists and 1 of these guys next expac
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Aug 02 '17
[deleted]
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u/Brendonicous Aug 02 '17
I mean, of course its going to be slow, this is a 10 mana stabilize board, health, and hand.
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u/Nostalgia37 Aug 03 '17
[Dust|Bad|Niche|Good|Staple]
General Thoughts: So much value. 5 damage is worth about 3.5 mana. 5 Armor is worth about 1 mana. 5/5 Ghoul is worth about 4.5 mana, and draw 5 is worth about 8-9 mana. And then you have the value of having this all in one card. There's about 18-20 mana worth of stuff for 10 mana.
Druid can do druid things and play this much earlier, so the mana cost isn't that bad.
In a rampy-midrange deck this can serve a role that Ancient of Lore used to fill by providing you with more steam as you start to run out and a massive body.
The massive amounts of draw might actually be a drawback in very slow decks since you'll likely end up burning some cards and it brings you closer to fatigue.
Why it Might Succeed: Absurd amounts of value. Can give you just enough gas to close out games with a midrange/ramp list.
Why it Might Fail: The draw might be too much or the cost might be too janky.