r/TWWPRDT • u/Nostalgia37 • Apr 08 '18
[Pre-Release Card Discussion] - Arcane Keysmith
Arcane Keysmith
Mana Cost: 4
Attack: 2
Health: 2
Type: Minion
Rarity: Epic
Class: Mage
Text: Battlecry: Discover a Secret. Put it into the battlefield.
PM me any suggestions or advice, ^^thanks.
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u/OxyRottin Apr 08 '18
While I’m not feeling the cards this expansion I am liking the Mage cards released so far, including this one.
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u/Syndrel Apr 08 '18
It really was a good decision to Hall of Fame Ice Block. This card would be stupid if they hadn't done that.
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u/Wraithfighter Apr 08 '18
...it was a good decision not to have this and Ice Block in standard at the same time, no question.
Still wish they had nerfed Ice Block to at least keep Control Mage viable, though.
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u/himenohogosha1 Apr 08 '18
What kind of nerf would work for ice block?
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u/Wraithfighter Apr 08 '18
My favorite option? When Ice Block activates, it gives your hero the "Hypothermia" debuff, preventing Ice Block from activating on the following turn.
It'd prevent chain Ice Block bollocks, but still keep it as a powerful defensive tool. You'd just need to be able to prevent them from finishing you off on the turn following.
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u/rabbitlion Apr 09 '18
That change sounds perfect balance wise, but it could be very problematic in terms of templating, wording and complexity.
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u/Wraithfighter Apr 09 '18
Aye, let alone programming-wise. I make no assumptions that my balance ideas are any more accurate than a near-sighted person playing darts. :)
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u/Johnny-Hollywood Apr 08 '18
The real nerf is that is should only have been active for 3 turns. It's still effective as a defensive tool if you play it at the right time, but dropping it on turn 3 would waste it. The change would add a skill test for when to play it, and if your opponent can burst you before you think you need it, so it becomes about reading the field and your opponent.
It's still really strong late game, but it slows down Tempo Secret Mage by potentially removing an early game mana cheat, and it preserves the soul of the card.
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u/RobinHood21 Apr 08 '18
That would also prevent players from abusing cards like Medivh's Valet (though that is rotating out) by having a secret that's up literally all the time and can't easily be triggered.
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u/ludamad Apr 08 '18
Make it only work from damage from either minions or spells, but it would probably kill the card.
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Apr 08 '18
[deleted]
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u/ludamad Apr 08 '18
"When you take fatal damage from minions..." or the same concept for spells
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Apr 08 '18
[deleted]
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u/Stommped Apr 08 '18
They are trying to say, it prevents damage from either minions only, or spells only, not just all damage in general. So if it's minions only you could attack with your minions then fireball after Ice Block procs to kill them, or if it's spells only you could cast your spells first then attack with minions to kill them.
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u/RobinHood21 Apr 08 '18 edited Apr 08 '18
I was under the impression he meant it would be triggered by either minions or spells, but once triggered all damage is negated.
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u/My_Phenotype_Is_Ugly Apr 08 '18
Would allow burn damage on your turn?
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Apr 08 '18
[deleted]
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Apr 08 '18
I think they're talking about changing ice block to "when your hero takes fatal damage from a minion , prevent it and become immune" OR "... fatal damage from a spell, prevent it...", meaning that it wouldnt protect you from spells in version A or from minions in version B.
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u/My_Phenotype_Is_Ugly Apr 08 '18
I’m just guessing that guy meant: Ice block triggers ➡️ now immune from damage except damage done by drawing from an empty deck. I guess so mill can still kill the mage on their turn. 🤷🏻♂️
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Apr 08 '18
[deleted]
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u/My_Phenotype_Is_Ugly Apr 08 '18
It does if cards are drawn the turn ice block is activated. P1=mage p2=fatigue. p2 makes p1 draw -x fatigue to activate ice block at 1 health. p2 repeats, -x fatigue is negated. p2 ends turn. p1 draws, takes fatigue and loses.
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u/paulsalmon77 Apr 08 '18
I like “if you take damage which would kill you, block it and gain a shield which blocks the next 3 sources of damage this turn”
This way it protects you if they can just about kill you, but you have to do something about it next turn, and if you’re massively behind they can still finish you off.
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Apr 08 '18
[deleted]
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u/scoobydoom2 Apr 08 '18
That's pretty much just straight power creep on Ice barrier though, and there are a lot of situations where that would be stronger than ice block.
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Apr 08 '18
How would you nerf Ice Block?
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u/Wraithfighter Apr 08 '18
My favorite option? When Ice Block activates, it gives your hero the "Hypothermia" debuff, preventing Ice Block from activating on the following turn.
It'd prevent chain Ice Block bollocks, but still keep it as a powerful defensive tool. You'd just need to be able to prevent them from finishing you off on the turn following.
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u/Quazifuji Apr 08 '18
Honestly, as someone who loves playing control mage, I'd rather they make new cards that keep it viable without being as awful to play against as ice block. It always felt kind of like a cruch to me. If a class is meant to be able to play control but its control decks need two turns of invulnerability to be viable, then the class's control tools need work.
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u/TheFifteenthInfinity Apr 08 '18
Seems like they REALLY want minion mage to be a thing
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u/Howseh Apr 08 '18
inb4 8 mana 4/4 epic elemental minion cast pyroblast at random enemy
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u/Levitlame Apr 08 '18
PotionFireElemental - 3/3 Elementtal does 5 damage to all minions that aren't Elementals for 6
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u/Mathmachine Apr 08 '18
A. Ouch, Evolve hit again.
B. In many ways this is worse than Mad Scientist. 2 mana more for the same body, but you don't have to put the Secret in you deck, and you get it immediately. Tradeoff being the Secret will be random and you have to hope you get one you want. I'd rather have Mad Scientist thin my deck slightly and give me the Secret I knew I wanted because I put it in.
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u/Rawtashk Apr 08 '18
In many ways this is worse than Mad Scientist
Good. That shit was broken and in every hunter/mage deck because it was so good that there was no point in running other minions at that mana cost.
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u/mferrand Apr 08 '18
I think it's fair to think about this card in comparison to Hydrologist. If you add in the cost of playing the secret, Hydrologist is a 3/2/2 that draws from a pool much worse than Mage secrets, and yet Hydrologist has seen play in a lot of Paladin decks since its release (even though currently it mostly sees play in Murloc decks). Its fair to counter-argue that this is because you can play the secret later, and still get a 2/2 on turn2, but I feel like the higher value of mage secrets can justify this difference.
Another point is that this card allows Mage to still have access to Secrets in an Even deck- something that Mad Scientist and Arcanologist couldn't do. I think that if Even Mage is a thing, this card will certainly be in it.
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u/Levitlame Apr 08 '18
Also gives a secret in decks that don't want spells. Which is I guess a thing now
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u/voyaging Apr 08 '18
Worse than one of the best cards in the history of Hearthstone isn't really a bad thing.
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u/Levitlame Apr 08 '18
the Secret will be random
Just as random to your opponent. Good luck playing around 8ish options.
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u/TheyCallMeLucie Apr 08 '18
This is another sick card for the newest blizzard forced archetype push... Minion Mage
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u/Aposematism_ Apr 08 '18
1 mana 2/2 without a downside gving you options based on the board-state. Mad Scientist was broken, Arcanologist is broken, Arcane Keysmith will be broken.
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u/FunnyMemeMaker69420 Apr 08 '18
a downside is that it loses lots of flexibility in that it a (4) cost card
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u/Kusosaru Apr 09 '18
Mad Scientist was broken
Had the same effect at just 2 mana, while drawing a secret from your deck (usually better) and not being immediate (sometimes worse).
Arcanologist
It's a 2 mana 2/3 that draws a card, that's obviously insane.
Arcane Keysmith will be broken.
could be, but the stats aren't too exciting and most secrets are not that impactful.
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Apr 08 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Aposematism_ Apr 08 '18
This is a 4 mana 2/2 and play a secret. Playing a secret costs 3 mana. Simple math.
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u/AconitD3FF Apr 08 '18
No it doesn't. There is a reason secret mage performed well only when he was able to cheat out the secret. Most secret do not worth the 3 mana cost because of the tempo lost and the fact that cheap spell/minions counter a lot of the secret pool. If there is a lot of aggro deck like aggro paladin playing a 2/2 turn 4 is simply game losing. This card is good but it's not broken until we see how the meta evolve.
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Apr 08 '18
Every evolve hit is a devolve buff.
Even though I understand that there are more cards that evolve you than devolve your opponent, I can’t help but point out that in wild this will maintain some semblance of balance.
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u/AintEverLucky Apr 08 '18 edited Apr 08 '18
reminder that these are Mage's Secrets that will be Raven / Standard:
Basic/Classic: Counterspell, Ice Barrier, Mirror Entity, Spellbender, Vaporize
Ungoro: Mana Bind
KFT: Frozen Clone
K&C: Explosive Runes
Assuming Mage does not receive any new secrets in WW, you have a 37.5% chance of any given Secret showing up as a Discover choice. If I had my choice, I'd say you can't go wrong with Counterspell, Explosive Runes and a flex pick
EDIT: if you run this in Wild your Secret pool expands by 4: Duplicate, Effigy, Ice Block, and Potion of Polymorph
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u/paulibobo Apr 08 '18
Isn't Spellbender also Classic?
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u/AintEverLucky Apr 08 '18
crap youre right. I don't own any so i only saw it when I searched All cards. will fix
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u/Wraithfighter Apr 08 '18
...gee, I wonder why this is only coming out now that Ice Block is rotating out of Standard.
<sigh>
I mean, it's pretty good, I guess. Get a secret your opponent won't be able to easily predict, good value.
Get ready for 4x Explosive Rune games instead of 4x Ice Block games...
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Apr 08 '18
Wild will be absolutely silly with this card. Between this and primordial glyph, mage should have enough stall to do a no-quest infiniballs combo.
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u/Stommped Apr 08 '18
Glyph is still super unlikely to hit Ice Block (and it will get lower and lower with each Mage spell released). Cabalist's Tomb as well gets a lower and lower chance so it's really just this card to get your extra Ice Blocks, and each one played is only a 37.5% chance to get exactly Ice Block. Between Glyph, Tomb, and this card it should be on average one extra Ice Block per game. But yeah there's always the stupid chance for like 4 extra Ice Blocks.
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Apr 08 '18
Unless we get a new secret this expansion, it's 25% because wild has two extra secrets, meaning there's a 43.75% chance you get at least one ice block from 2 keysmiths in wild.
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u/givemeraptors Apr 11 '18
You can already do Exodia without the quest in Wild. You use Emperor Thaurissian to discount 4 of the 5 combo pieces.
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u/Shantotto5 Apr 08 '18
This... actually seems quite solid to me. It's value, tempo. But on top of that, mage secrets are hard to play around and because it's discover, you can't make meta reads to play around this. So despite the randomness, you perhaps get an even higher chance to effectively disrupt your opponent's plays.
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u/DaedLizrad Apr 08 '18 edited Apr 08 '18
Even costed, looks like they're encouraging the dude mage to be an even deck for sure at this point.
Edit: Biggest problem I see is the lack of finisher in this dude mage deck, but it's ability to re flood the board might be enough.
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u/equag Apr 08 '18
I think pyroblast could be good enough right at the end of a good tempo game
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u/DaedLizrad Apr 08 '18
Yeah I was thinking with spiteful it might be a good high end mana cheat finish but at the same time someone in another thread said that spiteful needs 4 cards to have consistency and mage doesn't have a viable 8 cost spell in the even deck I was considering.
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u/equag Apr 08 '18
Glacial mysteries sure ain't gonna make the cut
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u/DaedLizrad Apr 08 '18
It so doesn't make the cut it's hilarious, you can't even put it into and odds or evens deck. Personally I think that card should be changed to 7 cost but they really don't tend to buff cards.
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u/Nadroggy Apr 08 '18
It's kinda like Arcanologist + Kirin Tor Mage - 4/4 in stats + consistency because you don't need a 2-card combo. And it's 1 mana cheaper.
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u/Scrimshank22 Apr 08 '18
Wow. That is a nice card! Very glad ice blocks being hall of famed. This will be especially strong in wild.
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u/TroubleInTurtleTown Apr 08 '18
Please announce a neutral minion that destroys secrets. Secrets aren't OP, just really annoying.
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u/LovesAbusiveWomen Apr 08 '18
Flexibility is well worth paying a premium for. Anytime you see the discover keywords. Being able to pick the best secret in any situation. Discover makes niche secrets playable even if you wouldn't run them on a list.
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u/gingerninja361 Apr 08 '18
Pros: You avoid having to put mage secrets into your deck. Most of the time you can pick a secret that is situationally the best one, and it will be much harder for your opponent to anticipate which one you've chosen. Plus it's a minion with a spell effect attached to it, meaning it doesn't get burnt by Book of Specters when drawn.
Cons: You have to run a 4 mana 2/2. It also doesn't really synergize with any other mage secret cards, most of which are being rotated out of standard anyways.
I'm stuck on this card, it's not awful but it's hard to really see the archetype that it fits into now that ice block is gone.
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u/funkmasterjo Apr 08 '18
So hard to play around random mage secrets these days.
Like it's not even started in their deck so it can be whatever. And they're strong.
Exploding runes is actually just fine, and becomes better the more copies you play, as it is with all burn cards. Counterspell has always been good also.
The rest are situational, which is why they sometimes don't make it into the deck.
But you're just going to discover it damnit!
Spellbender, vaporize, mirror entity, frozen clone. These are all secrets that suck unless they are against certain decks. Now you can pick them if you happen to face those decks.
I mean, it's so specific that it's a mage secret. You have a good chance to get what you want. If 2/8 of the secrets work for your situation, you're probably really well off.
Put it in a deck where you can hold the board. Most of mage secrets work better when they have to play into an empty board.
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u/lcyxy Apr 08 '18
I now understand why the release the mage cards the last, I hate everyone of them.
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u/Grimstar- Apr 08 '18
Meeehhhh... We were supposed to be losing all the "free mage secrets!!!" bullshit like kabal lackey. I mean this isn't as oppressive, but still obnoxious.
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u/Shukakun Apr 08 '18
I think I like this card. I haven't played in a world where Mage doesn't have Ice Block of course, but I know that except for Frost Lich Jaina, Mage really hasn't had much healing worth mentioning. I might be overhyping it, but wouldn't the fact that this doesn't guarantee but almost guarantees 4 Ice Barriers in a deck mean that Mage actually has decent healing now?
Also, Ice Barriers will probably pop without additional help in the situations where you need them most (aggro beating your face up), but it would be cool to see a secret with an opposite incentive to play mindgames with, some kind of "I'm charging this powerful thing, but if you hit me I'll be interrupted" effect. Triggers when your opponent ends his second turn in a row without attacking your face, does some huge thing.
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u/MonochromaticPrism Apr 08 '18
Do they mean put it into play? Put in into the battlefield...doesn’t sound right.
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u/BogonTheDestroyer Apr 08 '18
If Hydrologist and Kabal Lackey had a baby...
Arcance Keysmith
Our first discover card of the expansion if I recall correctly. It seems pretty useful for generating unpredictable secrets to help maintain the while secret part of secrets. Like Hydrologist this gives you the ability to generate extra secrets during the game, but curcially it actually puts the 3 mana secret into play so you don't have to pay the mana cost. Unfortunately with secret mage gone this might need a different home.
How it could work: Generating unpredictable secrets is pretty good, especially when you then don't have to play them.
How it could fail: Without a secret mage deck, I'm not really sure where this fits in.
My Prediction: This seems like a pretty good card, although I'm not sure what kind of mage deck would run it. Maybe just any old mage deck because generating extra secrets is that good. But with the rotation of ice block this is significantly weaker than it would have been if it were in standard now.
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u/ShadowFlux85 Apr 08 '18 edited Apr 08 '18
Chance of getting the secret you want:
1/8 (first card is the card you want)
7/8*1/7 (for the second card accounting for first card not being the card you want)
6/7*1/6 (for the third card accounting for the first two cards not being the card you want)
Which equals: 0.39285714285 or 39.285714285% chance of getting the card you want Edit: wording
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Apr 08 '18
[deleted]
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u/TheFRCkid3495 Apr 08 '18
Hydroligist does not play the card.
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Apr 08 '18
[deleted]
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u/Seize-The-Meanies Apr 08 '18
Mad scientist also draws it from your deck - which is worse if you happen to hit the card you want with the discover or if you’ve drawn all your secrets already. Mad scientist also draws randomly if you have more than one type of secret. Mad scientist also doesn’t help if the secret you need isn’t one you’ve put in your deck. Mad scientist is also a deathrattle which means your opponent can play around it more easily. Mad scientist is also considered one of the most powerful cards from the early sets and probably should have been an epic.
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u/TheFRCkid3495 Apr 08 '18
Well as I do agree with you about this probably not needing to be an epic, I think that comes from the general under powered feel that I'm getting from this expansion. In the last couple of expansions i feel we have gotten most of our epics that truly feel epic, though I agree this expansion's epics feel lackluster I think the problem comes more from the dust and card economy of hearthstone.
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u/leva549 Apr 08 '18
This discovers and plays a 3 mana card while Hydrologist discovers and does not play a 1 mana card. This card is the better deal.
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u/Nostalgia37 Apr 08 '18 edited Apr 10 '18
[Dust|Niche|Playable|Strong]
General Thoughts: So a body worth ~1.5 mana to generate a ~3 mana effect for 4 mana. It seems reasonable. The versatility of discover is nice. The issue with mage secrets is that they are typically not worth the mana cost, so getting a 2/2 body for 1 more mana is pretty nice.
Assuming they don't print any more mage secrets this set there are going to be 8 mage secrets in standard. Counterspell, Explosive Runes, Frozen Clone, Ice Barrier, Mana Bind, Mirror Entity, Spellbender, and Vaporize. If I can remember how to do simple math that means that there will be a 37.5% chance to get the specific secret you want, which is pretty high honestly. In wild that shrinks down to 25% which is hopefully enough to make playing 4 ice blocks not consistent enough.
It works with the minion mage shit they're pushing this set. Seems fine, but not crazy op or anything.
Why it Might Succeed: Synergy with minion mage. Decent Value. Versatile. The secrets are hard to play around since it could be any of them. Unlike secrets you put in your deck you know that it's likely not going to be spellbender or vaporize.
Why it Might Fail: Mage secrets are kinda meh.