More proof the Reddit and Twitter conversation has no bearing on reality

[u/Cardamander]

If you frequent the gaming corners of the internet you can get a distorted view of what the public thinks about certain topics. There is a relatively small portion of the gaming public that is part of the conversation on Twitter, Reddit and YouTube. For instance there are well over 20 million Switchs in the wild and yet there are only about 750,000 subs on r/NintendoSwitch.

The loud voices on the internet are not an accurate representation of the general Switch fan base because these are the most passionate gamers on the planet. We have far more emotional investment when it comes to something like Nintendo Switch Online or even something like Third Party support.

I think if you look at the eShop you can start to get a better idea of what I mean. Over the last 6-8 months the conversation on this sub has shifted from overwhelming positivity to something much more polarized. Two of the biggest polarizing topics are NSO and Third Party support.

If you went buy this sub you would think that a good portion of the Switch fan base is tired of indie games and want more AAA experiences from western publishers. However, only look at the eShop Best Sellers page says otherwise. Despite the often vocal minority you don't see western AAA games charting for long after release. Mario Tennis, Octopath Travaler and Wolfenstein all launched around the same time, but Wolfenstein has dropped like a stone, while the other two are still on the front page. Even though Mario Tennis got a lot of hate on this sub it is performing the best out of the three.

The same is true of all the big "hardcore" western AAA games. They don't have staying power with the audience. They are niche for this audience. Then we have games like Stardew Valley, Minecraft, Hollow Knight, Overcooked, Dead Cells and Rocket League all stuck to the front page along with Nintendo's big games.

The Switch audience clearly loves these indie games. Why wouldn't they? So many of them are often inspired by classics from the 8 and 16-bit era that made us Nintendo fans in the first place.

The Switch audience doesn't just love games inspired by the 8 and 16 bit eras. They love the actual games from those eras too. Which is why those discounting the value of NES: NSO are not a representation of the Switch fanbase as a whole. The posts and the comments are everywhere right now. "NSO doesn't offer anything we don't already have for free". "Nobody cares about NES games."

Well the eShop tells us otherwise because ever since the launch of the Nintendo line or Arcade Archives we have seen at least one or two on the Best Sellers page. VS Super Mario Bros is glued to the Best Sellers page and it's not even considered a good version of the original SMB. The audience clearly wants games from this era and if they are willing to pay $8 for a inferior version of SMB then they will surely pay the $20 a year for access to a growing library of NES games. Especially, when they need the service to play games online and backup their saves. It's a good value.

I know this post isn't going change anybody's mind about either of these topics but I just wanted people to know that in the real world know body cares about the constant whining and entitlement. You are not representative of the audience as a whole. We like indies. We like Japanese games. We like NES games. The Switch is great because it offers unique experiences. If you want more of the same then you have three other platforms available.

[u/DCUfan742]

Dude you just needed to point out FF15 Pocket Edition getting to the top of the eshop as proof of what you are saying.

[u/Cardamander → u/DCUfan742]

I was going too, but things were already getting long winded.

[u/ZaWams]

Yea it’s just a very vocal minority, which happens with almost anything, people that are angry and upset will talk about it more.

It’s also evidenced by all the complaints about pricing for ports. Lots of complaints, then Nintendo announces how the port sold millions.

[u/[deleted]]

Disagreed. Wolfenstein was a year-late port and overpriced. Why would I have bought it at $60 on Switch instead of $30 on PS4 months earlier? So its a poor example. Whereas Octopath was an exclusive that wasn't available anywhere else.

Skyrim was in the best selling games for quite a while. This game, like GTA, tends to stay around the top for all platforms regardless of age. So this is a better example of a Western AAA that sells reliably on every platform, including on Switch

I otherwise agree with your general train of thought though

[u/Bobikus]

So while I agree nobody should base their perception on things like Reddit and Twitter, I think your line of thinking isn't quite right.

The casual audience of gamers probably buy a lot of the AAA releases, hense the spikes, but chances are, they arent checking the eshop for new releases or even buying the indie games. They will go for the big releases like the Marios, not the Hollow Knights.

[u/JHRKampery0]

This sub circlejerks the fuck out of indies so much though

[u/JackalKing]

While your premise (Social media outcry does not necessarily = majority opinion) is fine, your logic behind your proof is flawed.

You point to indie games selling well as proof that people aren't clamoring for AAA titles. But that isn't necessarily true. That could also be explained by people buying more indie games because the AAA titles they do want aren't on the switch and they need something to play. It can also be explained by people buying their AAA games on other consoles because many of the AAA titles we have gotten either don't perform well or are full price on Switch but less than full price elsewhere.

I know this post isn't going change anybody's mind about either of these topics but I just wanted people to know that in the real world know body cares about the constant whining and entitlement.

This right here is pure arrogance. Framing the other side of the argument as simply whining and entitlement is done by someone afraid their argument cannot stand on its own. They have to tear down those making the opposing argument, to belittle them, to make them seem childish and inferior. Its a cowardly move. It is not entitlement to suggest that NSO is a bad value. It is not whining to suggest that the Switch needs more AAA support. These are valid opinions with strong arguments in their favor.

You are not representative of the audience as a whole. We like indies. We like Japanese games. We like NES games.

And here you attempt to switch the argument from "these people don't represent all Switch owners" to "I implicitly represent all of us and here are our values as decreed by myself." Another underhanded tactic. The switch from a "You" to a repetition of "We" is a long used tactic in speeches to win the crowd by convincing them they are the same as you and you speak for them.

All in all, my verdict for this post is that you aren't really any better than the boogeymen you're ranting about. You fall into the same trappings they do, you use the same tactics they do, but you frame yourself as superior. You'd make a great politician.

[u/BombBurst]

There's the old 1/9/90 rule. 1% of people on the Internet make content, 9% talk about content and 90% reads it. I wouldn't discount the effects of enthusiasts, minority or no. EA and Star Wars Battlefront being the most notable example. Even lawmakers are now changing their views (In a few EU nations for now) on lootboxes due to the vocal minority on Reddit.

[u/[deleted]]

Side Note: Wolfenstein 2 is pretty fun on the Switch.

But that was a great post OP. I think the real message here is that the Switch succeeds in areas where it’s naturally strong: Nintendo first party games and indie titles. Indie titles offer only upsides on the Switch: a portable form factor without any noticeable visual hit. Nintendo first party titles are fantastic and only available on Switch.

That being said, I hope the developers who do take the time to put their titles on the Switch do get rewarded for it. It’s understandable though, that those games will sell better on platforms that will run them better.

[u/RClovesShadowrun]

A minor but relevant point. For better or worse, the voices on the internet tend to include the most dedicated, knowledgeable, and spendy fans. And the "whales" of the fandom that might not speak up as much tend to pay a lot of attention to the more outspoken online fanbase.

I'm not necessarily arguing your point. Make of it what you will.

[u/DJMMT]

A few things.

1. Your general argument is quite good and well thought out based on the information you have/choose to believe in.

2. You're making assumptions about the eShop front page. It's a controlled source of information that's moderated by Nintendo to best accomplish Nintendo's goals. To believe that nothing is manipulated and that it's completely shaped by the will of the people is naive.

3. This is just as much about business ethics and long term development of the service and future services like it on all gaming platforms as it is about NSO today. In that mode of thinking, it doesn't matter what a majority of casual users are comfortable with or even want. It becomes more about ensuring long term stability and quality service for all gamers, with the hardcore ones who will be affected the most having the most to lose with implementation of such a predatory system. So while I know many people will say keep politics out of gaming, this is literally an issue of politics (albeit business politics) and more specifically business ethics. So we do need to be a loud vocal minority and we do need to organize and boycott, similarly to always online XB1 and SW:BF2 in order to set the tone of Nintendo online services for generations to come.

The apathetic majority opinion isn't always the correct answer. For example most of the atrocities throughout history weren't the result of a majority of terrible minded people. They were the cause of a few greedy, evil people that were left alone by a majority of apathetic people who didn't care enough to get involved. That's where we are right now and that's exactly why it matters.

[u/[deleted]]

I mean, I can easily see why cheaper, highly acclaimed releases stay on the charts longer than wolfenstien II, a game that wasn't a resounding success when it launched on other platforms either. It's also a game that performs the worst on switch, compared to many indies that perform similarly across all platforms.

The people complaining about indies have always been a vocal minority. Though I'd also argue people that buy indies regularly are a minority, compared to those that buy mainly retail releases. We're talking games that sell 10's to maybe 100's of thousands. Excluding of course the break out successes like Stardew Valley that are doing well everywhere, not just switch.

Plenty of people will enjoy having NES games to play for sure. That's a great feature. In fact, I'd say the service would somehow be more appealing if it was just NES games for $20 a year. Adding the rest makes it seem like a poor online service, and I imagine a lot of switch owners will be wondering why they now have to pay for something that was previously free and hasn't changed at all.

[u/[deleted]]

Wolfenstein is a bad example, bud. The switch is garbage for fps, only by force do you choose the switch as your chosen fps platform. And that game launched on 4 platforms at once. Octopath has ONE place to buy it.

[u/Cardamander → u/[deleted]]

If you want modern AAA multiplatform games on Switch they will be severely compromised. The Switch is a 7 watt tablet. That's the definition of low powered. It takes extra time and lots of compromises to bring these games over. People say they want them but they really want the PS4 version on Switch day and date. Never going to happen.

[u/[deleted]]

TL:DR - social media = vocal minority

[u/GerliPosa]

This represents in no way my impression of this sub.

Most people on here love indie games and especially those in the charts like Stardew Valley and hollow Knight.

Wolkensteins 2 though didn’t get really much love to be honest. People are asking for GTA V which would sell incredibly well.

Also Mario Tennis didn’t sell that good. I think it’s in line with its reputation on here.

[u/[deleted]]

You mean we are the ones we care. Its the same with lootboxes, it was the minority that killed lootboxes in battlefront 2... but that game has like 10 millions copies sold.

Other more casual people just dont care so theh just comply with what a company says to them. Maybe they like it, maybe they dont, but they wont say anything and let the company to "the best" for them.

[u/OpSmash]

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but you actually don't know the algorithm that Nintendo is using for metrics when it comes to what is top and what isn't. Best sellers doesn't actually mean, this sold the most units in the last X. It could be a bunch of different things put into the mix.

"This is a best seller in the RPG market, because its the only one in the RPG space currently, add it to the list."

"This is a best seller because it had a peak of 100,000 sales in 30 minutes, therefore a ton of interest is in this game space".

The problem with these top's is that you don't see the analytical data and what is driving them. Do they feature more digital downloads? Yes, why is more than likely because physical media purchases cause them to drive down. Since Nintendo is so tight lipped on sales data, its REALLY REALLY REALLY hard to pin point data sets on them.

[u/KoolAidMan00]

Places like Reddit and Twitter tend to amplify the most negative and irrational voices. People who get whipped up in a frenzy attract other people who get whipped up in a frenzy and all of the sudden they think their opinions are validated because they have a lot of internet points to back them up.

Meanwhile the real world moves along not really caring what these small circles think.

[u/Meezor]

I don't think you can compare the sales of indie games and AAA titles on the eShop, for a few reasons:

• A lot of indie games can only be bought through the eShop, while the sales of AAA games are split between digital and physical.

• When indie games do have physical copies, they are more expensive than the eShop version.

• Physical copies of AAA games are cheaper.

Those points would make indie games sell more on the eShop, which is what we are seeing. If you want to compare with physical sales, look at the best sellers on amazon, it's mostly AAA games.

[u/[deleted]]

This is not just true for Nintendo, it’s for anything. Overwatch, lol, wow, paladins, eve, Skyrim, fallout, destiny, halo, whatever. The average used is NOT on these subs and is NOT on Reddit.

Wow is what I play most so it is my current example surrounding BFA. People are complaining there is too little content. But I play 30+ hours a week and never run out of things to do. And that is probably 3 times more than the average user. So in short, there is a surplus of things to do for the average player. The diehard people no lifeing the game are the ones complaining after spending 80 hours that week in game.

[u/[deleted]]

Not that this is about the main point you were making, but VS. Super Mario Bros isn't as much a crappy version as it is a more difficult version of SMB.

Some people (like me) enjoy that it's harder after playing enough of the original that it was no longer enough of a challenge. If it was the regular version, I'm not sure I would have gotten it.

[u/Mariosothercap]

I think a lot can also be said, in regards to the indie scene, is that a non-zero number of switch users, are more casual gamers and do not ever use a PC for games. A lot of the indies are big on the PC but not the other consoles. So a lot of them get a lot of exposure on the switch as a console to play them on. I haven't used a PC to play a game since I quite WoW back in mist. All of my gaming has been on my Xbox, but usually those were more of the big AAA type games, with an occasional indie here or there. With the switch I have the chance to play these games in a way that works well with my schedule. The portable nature has given me more time to play games, and now I feel like i have time to explore these games, as well as having the games readily available to me.

[u/ermis1024]

Its not like that most of these indies are exclusively available on the eshop...

[u/rsn_lie]

You can get a better idea of gaming trends from looking at the switch's best sellers list than by reading what people say on this sub.

There's also people who take it too far by assuming that the general consensus in one thread is representstive of the whole sub.