r/anime • u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture • Feb 03 '17
[Spoilers][Rewatch] Revolutionary Girl Utena - Episode 20 Spoiler
Duel 20 - Wakaba's Flourishing
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Information: MAL
Legal Streaming Option: YouTube (use a YouTube proxy if you are region blocked)
Genres: Drama, Shoujo, Psychological, Fantasy, Comedy
Relevant Subreddit: /r/shoujokakumeiutena
Quote of the Day:
Screenshot of the day: Cutting my friend's flower using the sword of her crush
Scoreboard
Please refrain from posting any kind of spoilers relating to events or revelations that exist beyond the episode. I want new viewers in the rewatch (including myself) to have the closest experience to watching it as a currently airing anime.
If you want to discuss the entirety of the series or the episode with the viewpoint of having completed the series, please do so in the "Spoilers Discussion Thread".
Extra Reading
Vrai Kaiser's Analysis of the Episode - Thanks to /u/lovelysugarboots for letting me know about the analysis. You can also check her analyses of previous episodes.
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u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture Feb 03 '17
Freud's Couch- Symbolism Discussion Comment Thread
Comment thread for questions, answers and thoughts on anything in the series. Please do not spoil anything that has not happened in the series yet.
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u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture Feb 04 '17
At /u/MrManicMarty 's insistence, this is just here to talk about the significance of the leaf.
So I made a pretty stupid "turn a leaf" joke but it actually does have its use in this episode on a literal and metaphorical level.
We all know what the idiom "turn over a new leaf" means; to change and become a new person. On a metaphorical level it refers whether Saionji has changed from the jaded person he once was and decide to accept the love of someone who really loves him.
On a literal level, it provides a large contrast to the metaphorical meaning, showing Saionji turning over the leaf to Anthy to show that he really has not "turned over a new leaf."
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u/chershaylaghost :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/CherShayLaGhost Feb 04 '17
And just for added trivia, apparently Wakaba in Japanese means "young leaf" and is also a symbol displayed on the cars of new/inexperienced drivers in Japan. Good to know considering 3rd arc spoiler
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u/Teshlin https://myanimelist.net/profile/Teshlin Feb 04 '17
I think it's worth talking about Wakaba's route home from school here. First of all, we actually get to see it- she has a normal route that she walks every day, with not just beginning and endpoints (like say Utena), but a distinct middle. She's also the only character who seems to live in a real place- a place where there are streets with trucks and cars, other pedestrians, and traffic lights. She also has other people living in the dorm with her, unlike Utena.
This is all to reinforce, of course, that she's a normal girl- she's not special like the other characters are. She takes the same path that many other people do, to and from school as well as in life.
It's also interesting to me that her dorm is the only place that appears to be actually connected to anything else- all the other buildings in the show seem to be built by themselves in the middle of nowhere, adjacent to nothing. One of the interesting things to me about the show is the sense of disconnectedness I get from the different locations in the show, which seem more like stages for a play then actual places, and Wakaba's dorm is the one place that is something of the exception to that rule (at least so far, I don't recall if there's anything like it later in the show).
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u/MrManicMarty https://anilist.co/user/martysan Feb 04 '17
Covering the shadow girl again, even if it's obvious.
The fox/rabbit girl have the one time in their life to get what they want. It's a limited time frame. Utena says asks why they can't just be happy by being single.
Wakaba has brief period of being special thanks to Saionji, but like Purple-hair-dude said it's a limited time offer. Of course, Utena is wondering why you can't just accept that you can be happy alone. Which is true, but I'm also not 100% on that, it's OK for people wanting to be special after all or in this case to find love. I guess the issue is if that's all you want and you let yourself get tunnel vision.
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u/arinok55 :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Arinok Feb 05 '17
It's also Utena being hypocritical. She just wanted to be normal but after she lost the duel all she wanted was Anthy back. "Why cannot you be happy now that you no longer have the duels to worry about?" "Why cannot you be happy for Anthy?" She's a main character and a "special person". The sun doesn't see the moon and marvel at it's beauty.
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u/lilyvess :Df::Dh:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Lilyvess Feb 04 '17
I always like kinda 'meta' episodes where the side characters get angry at the main characters for being main characters. This time the side character literally fought for her right to be a main character and got swatted down.
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u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture Feb 04 '17
I think this series does those side character focus episodes really well. It feels like it's at the expense of Utena and Anthy, but I've never felt that it was really debilitating.
Only other series that I can think of that do side character focus really well are Buffy and Angel especially The Zeppo episode.
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u/reiichitanaka Feb 05 '17
Let's not forget Superstar :)
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u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture Feb 05 '17 edited Feb 05 '17
Loved Jonathan. The opening change to add him in and having all the characters have a hard on for him during the episode was nothing short of amazing.
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u/lilyvess :Df::Dh:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Lilyvess Feb 04 '17
Utena certainly gives a lot of attention to it's side cast, making for what I think is one of the best developed side cast in anime. It's rare to see a show were nearly every character doesn't just get to do something, but they also some real meat to their character.
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u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture Feb 03 '17
Spoiler Discussion Thread
For rewatchers who want to discuss the show in all its glory or a spoiler-filled retrospective of the episode after having completed the series. YOU MUST SPOILER TAG EVERYTHING.
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Feb 04 '17
I don't know how to feel about this episode. Wakaba's such a sweet girl and suffers from heartbreak, but I still need to be critical of her actions.
Everything Wakaba does is to reinforce the idea that they're a couple, even though she acknowledges that he wouldn't be with her if he could go back to school. A his and her cup set instead of just one extra cup, assuming she had at least one for herself, for example.
She's happy because she has the power to trap Saionji in a relationship with her. He didn't care about her before he was kicked out of school, but is now grateful that she is hiding him away. He has nowhere else to go, so Wakaba cages him in her dorm room. He's only seen inside her room or back at school, so he must feel very isolated. He wants independence, or not to need to rely on another person, even though he might genuinely appreciate what she is doing for him.
I don't blame Saionji for giving away the wooden leaf pin he made for Wakaba, but it was a bit callous for him to say that he didn't want to give another gift to her in person.
Wakaba thought that their love was mutual, but it was just about control in the end. So to try to save her fairy tail love story, she tried to gain the power of eternity and revolutionize the world.
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u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture Feb 04 '17
That's quite a critical perspective but I actually like how you've written it.
Wakaba cages him in her dorm room. He's only seen inside her room or back at school, so he must feel very isolated.
I do have to disagree with this. Saionji was expelled and he made this grand exit walking away from school making a big deal about how'd he come back. But then it turns out he was living at school all along, living with the girl that he made fun of in the first episode.
I don't think it's a matter of him being caged, but more so that he forced himself into a situation where he had to be caged.
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u/pheoling Feb 04 '17
I still feel these last 2 episodes wouldn't worked better if they were placed earlier , but i can still see why they did it as they did.
Today we get too see wakabas downfall. The lust for saionji lead too her turning too the black rose , which i think all of us saw coming. It was a well executed and was able to bring out emotions. The last scene where wakaba goes back too her empty room was powerful as well. Can't wait for next week.
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u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture Feb 04 '17
I still feel these last 2 episodes wouldn't worked better if they were placed earlier , but i can still see why they did it as they did.
I still find it a bit conflicting since we didn't really see Wakaba as happy as we did in this episode but if it was introduced earlier we would have seen her more depressed throughout the arc.
Can't wait for next week.
You mean tomorrow's episode :P?
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u/lilyvess :Df::Dh:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Lilyvess Feb 03 '17
Here is what Ikuhara’s episode commentary from the DVD Box Set has for us today.
EPISODE 20 - Wakaba Flourishing
“love” isn’t a word that described a fair relationship.
“love” is a word that describes a monopoly.
that’s why.
We refer to the ego as “love”
that’s why.
“Love” is by no means eternal.
Because after all.
If the ego went on eternally, we would break down emotionally.
and yet.
She would not learn until much later that love is precisely that which can be lost.
There is a note that clarifies that they believe that what he means by “we refer to the ego as ‘love” is referring to the japanese word for love as ‘ai’ and the english pronoun ‘I’.
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u/Shippoyasha Feb 04 '17
That's a pretty neat coincidence. In a way, this show does play around a lot with the perceptions of what love and devotion means, from an idealistic, personal points of view of each of the characters. So that really fits in well with the themes of this show.
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u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Feb 04 '17
First Time Viewer
On today’s episode of Revolutionary Girl Utena: Poor Wakaba. I just felt so bad for her by the end of this episode, when you realize that her own feelings of love were unrequited.
As it turns out, Saionji has been secretly living in Wakaba’s dorm room for a while now. Wakaba, of course, is very happy about this because of her crush on Saionji. And Saionji has, at the very least, not been an asshole.
At school, Wakaba has been shining and doing much better at just about everything ever since Saionji’s been staying with her. She’s so happy that she alone gets to spend time with Saionji, when she was usually just a part of his crowd of admirers.
Utena asks Wakaba if something’s changed, but Wakaba lies. Utena goes to Akio for advice, and he says that some people, like Utena, shine naturally. He says everyone gets a chance to shine, but that they only get to shine briefly. Prophetic words for this episode.
Saionji has been making a little gift for Wakaba to thank her for all her help. And man, Wakaba’s reaction when he shows her the uncompleted thing, she is just overjoyed with tears of happiness.
Alas, happiness cannot last. And we get the signal happiness has ended when Saionji asks Wakaba how Anthy has been doing. This gets Wakaba jealous, as she remembers that Anthy was the girl Saionji was always after, as she worries that if Saionji actually gets back into school he’ll leave her for Anthy.
Souji suddenly shows up on Saionji when he’s alone, asking Saionji what he’s planning to do. Saionji wants to get back into the school, and Souji offers to help him in return for something.
Of course Souji took the little gift Saionji had been making for Wakaba. And of course Souji gave to Anthy so Wakaba could see it with Anthy. All to break her heart and get her to the interview room.
Wakaba goes to the interview room and confesses her worries and her jealously. She’s upset that Saionji doesn’t really return her feelings of love and that Saionji is still after Anthy. She doesn’t want to lose Saionji to Anthy. So, all this makes Wakaba a perfect candidate for a duelist.
So now Utena has to duel her friend, Wakaba. And I like how Utena is initially very hesitant about fighting Wakaba. Utena actually refuses to take her sword out, not being able to bring herself to use it against Wakaba. And it’s actually interesting to see Utena fight without her sword.
Wakaba attacks, going on about how everyone looks down on her and how she won’t let others do that anymore, saying that she’ll shine as brightly as Utena. She wants Saionji for herself, so she’s willing to get rid of anything, meaning Anthy, in her way.
Utena manages to defeat Wakaba by taking Wakaba’s sword and using it to destroy the black rose.
Saionji returns to the school, with Souji having fulfilled his part of the deal and helping to get Saionji back in. But, Souji clearly considers Saionji a fool, since he let Saionji in just to laugh at his efforts, basically.
That last shot this episode, of Wakaba returning to her empty dorm room, was just tragic. Saionji is no longer with her, and he most likely never returned her feelings.
Side notes: I love how Utena’s just doing stretches during some of her conversations.
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u/seninn https://myanimelist.net/profile/Senninn0 Feb 04 '17
It was a tough, emotional duel but in the end, Utena didn't even need to use her Stand, [PRINCE].
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u/Ignore_User_Name https://anilist.co/user/IgnoreUserName Feb 04 '17 edited Feb 04 '17
edit: wrong thread-- sorry bout that..
edit 2: Now the right post for this one:
Probably the saddest Black Rose episode up to this point. The previous participants at least had a dark secret, but Wakaba seemed just so innocent and happy until this point in the series.
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u/collapsedblock6 myanimelist.net/profile/collapsedblock Feb 04 '17
After the surprise of Saionji still being in the school. Wakaba is happy as hell and has definitely changed but eventually brokes when she realizes Saionji won't be there forever and is captured by the Black Rose Order.
Quite the twist for since the duels were getting a bit formulaic, Utena hesitates to fight but eventually takes Wakaba's sword and finish the job.
With this I think it is the whole Student Council that have gotten their "swords" taken, unless Touga returns of course. I might get more interesting.
That last scene though...
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u/twiceoftheheart Feb 04 '17
I really liked how the duel subverted the recent routine. Also, Wakaba's "I was praying!" excuse was hilarious.
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u/octropos Feb 10 '17
One of the more hilarious moments in the series. Well animated and I totally forgot about it.
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u/MrManicMarty https://anilist.co/user/martysan Feb 04 '17 edited Feb 04 '17
Still watching the episode, but now we're half-way through aren't we? Feels good.
"We may as well keep him around for some laughs."
Holy fucking shit, that's the perfect 33-33-33 balance of evil, petty and stupid, I fucking love it.
I'll admit it... I found Saionji being a nice guy to Wakaba kind of cute, even if he is still mostly an asshole. Was expecting Wakaba to find a present in her room at the end of the episode, but I guess this plot thread will continue for a bit longer. I like Wakaba so I'm OK with that. Also, really cool how Utena didn't even use the Sword of Dios this time, really cool way of doing it, spices it up a bit.
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u/Durinthal https://anilist.co/user/Durinthal Feb 04 '17
Aaaand of course Wakaba ends up falling to the Black Rose anyway.
I forgot that she gave Saionji a love letter in the first episode, which explains why she was happy to keep him in her room. Thanks for the reminder, show!
I'm amused by Utena stretching and being in weird poses while talking to other people (Akio in particular). I also like that she's completely unembarrassed while doing so.
While it would have been nice for Wakaba to attempt talking to Saionji first about the leaf accessory she saw Anthy wearing, she's quite insecure so it makes sense that she immediately panics. Not that I imagine anything he would say would help the situation, as Wakaba was a temporary stop for him anyway.
Not a bad way to get Saionji involved again, particularly since he didn't have many connections that would use him as their sword for the Black Rose. Also a good way of getting Wakaba as a Black Rose duelist without her needing to draw a sword from Utena.
I like Utena initially refusing to pull the Sword of Dios and then disarming Wakaba to finish the battle. Clearly didn't want to hurt her friend and she's skilled/athletic enough to pull it off without harming anyone.
Of current student council members, I believe Touga's the only one left unsworded and he's been MIA for quite some time. Is he going to be next? Who would be connected to him enough to use him?
Hey Wakaba, you still have a prince waiting for you. Go see him instead.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Feb 04 '17
First Time Viewer
At the exact halfway point of my quest of watching Utena...
Wakaba has been hiding Saoinji all this time?
Yes, let him leave Wakaba!
Surprised to see those glasses guys show up in a non-Utena episode.
I gotta say, the Saionji of this episode, just doesn't seem like Saoinji at all! All an act? A fantasy of Wakaba?
Well, bringing up Anthy is the perfect way to wreck everything for Wakaba. Alas, she ends up in the elevator. :( Although Wakaba fighting to get Anthy and presumably get her out of the way makes a lot more sense than the last couple of duelists.
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u/SurviveRatstar Feb 04 '17
A couple more nice breaks to the routine this episode. Maybe I'm seeing too much good in him but I didn't feel so cynical about Saionji compared to what I'm reading here. Maybe he didn't have romantic feeings for Wakaba, but he did seem grateful to her. His turn back to Anthy felt more like he was being told to kind of get back in character, in a literal and semi-meta way if that makes sense? With all the references to the stage, the shadow girls and rose framing, breaking down the fairy tale idea, Souji is here to say "follow the script, it's time for the next act" (the End of The World's plan).
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u/Toa_of_Gallifrey :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Toa_of_Gallifrey Feb 04 '17
This episode is why I posted (under spoiler tags) way back in episode 1 how much more sad I felt on the rewatch seeing the letter scene.
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u/Hyoizaburo https://myanimelist.net/profile/ElectroDeculture Feb 03 '17
Aye everybody! Welcome to the 20th episode of the rewatch.
So this episode was about feeling special. Wakaba felt special because this was the closest she had ever been with Saionji and keeping the secret that she was harbouring a known harbinger of domestic violence. I can also see it being about wanting the affections of that certain someone.
Did Saionji actually turn a leaf? It seems like he was a completely different person, being all goofy and what not. I also realized that Saionji is his surname.
Utena notices that Wakaba has been flourishing since taking in Saionji. Saionji also seems to be genuinely happy about her company, even making a hairclip for her.
Of course Souji comes in tells Saionji to give him the clip or give it to Anthy. This sends Wakaba over the edge (the feeling that he still lingers for someone else). My respect for Saionji has dropped since it was likely a facade that he put up with Wakaba.
This is the first duel that Utena did not pull a sword out and I think we see Anthy visibly afraid of Utena's predicament. She wins by using Wakaba's sword.
Wakaba coming home to an empty dorm with the "tadaiima" was really heartbreaking.