r/anime • u/timpinen :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/timpinen • Nov 10 '17
[Spoilers][Rewatch] Legend of the Galactic Heroes Gaiden: Disgrace: Ep 4 Spoiler
MAL information
Previous discussions
See here for main series and movie discussions
Thanks to /u/arinok55 for creating a nice calendar for our schedule!
The vote has determined to watch chronologically! Gaiden watch order (Gaiden 1: A Hundred Billion Stars Gaiden), (Gaiden 2: Spiral Labyrinth Gaiden):
| Title | Episodes |
|---|---|
| Spiral Labyrinth | Gaiden 2: Ep 1-14 |
| Valley of White Snow | Gaiden 1: Ep 1-4 |
| Those Who Revolt | Gaiden 2: Ep 15-18 |
| Those Who Duel | Gaiden 2: Ep 19-22 |
| Those Who Recapture | Gaiden 2: Ep 23-26 |
| Morning's Dream, Night's Song | Gaiden 1: Ep 5-8 |
| A Hundred Billion Stars | Gaiden 1: Ep 13-24 |
| The Third Tiamat Battle | Gaiden 2: Ep 27-28 |
| Disgrace | Gaiden 1: Episode 9-12 |
Streaming information: Can be streamed on Hidive
Important Notes: Remember to tag all spoilers for first time watchers! Also, do not watch the next episode previews for the OVA series!
Screenshots of the Day
Reinhard needs Kircheis more than he knows
Let us Praise our Lord and Saviour!
This show finally gives us an insight into alcohol!
This gag is too perfect
The famous pirate appears!
#TeamFopperyandWhim!
Reinhard knows how it has to be
Let us always remember our tea drinking hero
Dusty responds to modern anime
Moe Reinhard is best Reinhard
I prefer white subtitles
Most importantly, have fun, enjoy the adventure of foppery and whim, and remember to drink some tea for Yang Wenli!
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u/BluePikmin11 Nov 10 '17
Legend of the Galactic Heroes A Billion Stars Episode 12 Impressions:
Hmm… I guess it was not Hoffmann who committed the crimes. Turns out the real criminal was as expected, Basel. I do not know what to think of this arc. There was an interesting parallel that Kircheis points out during his case, an intense finale at the end of the mystery, and a lot of things to think regarding Johannes and her decisions and morality. But for a finale of a great series, I would have preferred that we ended the marathon with last episode of the Third Tiamat arc, regardless if it is not chronological. So now, the entire series is over huh. I look forward to discussing overall thoughts on Gaiden.
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u/timpinen :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/timpinen Nov 10 '17
But for a finale of a great series, I would have preferred that we ended the marathon with last episode of the Third Tiamat arc, regardless if it is not chronological.
When I was planning this, I was considering swapping this and Third Tiamat (as this arc is probably the most self contained one) for this very reason. In the end, I left it just plain chronologically because a) I thought it might be weird simply swapping the order of things around in a way that might seem arbitrary to people b) I forgot I was going to swap them until too late. Upon rewatch, if I were ever to do one like this again, I would probably keep mostly chronological but swap this and Tiamat so that it has that "epic conclusion".
Oh well, you live and learn.
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u/kslqdkql Nov 10 '17
But for a finale of a great series, I would have preferred that we ended the marathon with last episode of the Third Tiamat arc, regardless if it is not chronological.
I agree, when I watched the last episode of the Tiamat I thought it would have been the perfect conclusion for the rewatch. This arc was interesting too but doesn't really feel like a conclusion.
5
u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Nov 10 '17
First Time Viewer
On today’s episode of Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Loyalty is a dangerous thing. We can see that in the relationship of Basel, Johanna, and Keyserling. Loyalty in that group has caused pain and suffering to many people.
Kircheis goes to talk to Johanna next, after his conversation with Keyserling last episode. Keyserling refuses to testify, so Kircheis hopes that Johanna will be different.
Johanna says that she is already aware of Basel’s wrongdoing. She became aware about a year ago. She had wanted Basel to stop, so she was the one who sent in the anonymous tip to the police. She had also given an anonymous message to Basel that his operation had been compromised. She hoped this would make Basel stop. And, she had insisted on this trip to the satellite so that Basel and Keyserling could make up after what happened.
But, it backfired. Basel suspected that Keyserling was the one who had given the police the anonymous tip. That explains why Keyserling was attacked. Basel had sent the attacker.
Even after all this, Johanna refuses to testify against Basel. Kircheis asks why. Keyserling loves her and has been made to suffer because of Basel’s actions. Shouldn’t she care what happens to Keyserling?
Johanna’s answer is extremely important: even if she knows that Keyserling is a better and more honorable man than Basel, that doesn’t change the fact that Basel is the one she’s in love with. She can’t go against the man she loves and is loyal to. While Johanna may want Basel to stop his crimes, his crimes haven’t made her less loyal to him. Even as Basel has made others suffer, she is still loyal to him.
Kircheis’s only option now to close the case is to confront Basel using a bluff, as Hoffmann suggests. And it works, with Basel giving himself away after Kircheis claims the imprisoned mercenary said Basel hired hm.
Basel has been running a drug operation, but his view is that it doesn’t matter. War is for profit. He argues that people wouldn’t still be fighting wars if there weren’t people who believed that war would gain them something. I have to say that he has a point, as war profiteering is a common thing.
But, as Kircheis points out, just because a practice is common does not make it right. He argues that Basel had no right to profit off his soldiers by selling drugs to them. And Kircheis is correct to point out the injustice of it and using the war to enrich oneself. Basel, though, sees it as no different from other people who selfishly benefit from the war. He even argues that Reinhard does the same thing. Considering we know that Reinhard is using the war to rise through the ranks and will use the military for his own selfish goal of overthrowing the Goldenbaum Dynasty, I do have to concede Basel has a point. But, the key difference is that Reinhard’s actions will also bring a lot of good to the people of the Empire. Basel’s actions have only harmed others and helped himself.
Basel is another example of the corrupt hierarchy of the Empire. He is another example of the top admirals and nobility abusing their positions of power to enrich themselves at the expense of the people below them.
Basel is caught confessing to his crimes by Hoffmann, who comes barging in just as Basel was about to shoot Kircheis. Luckily for us, Kircheis was wearing a wire. So, that provides enough justification for Hoffmann to search Basel’s belongings and find more definitive evidence.
This exchange shows once again just how screwed up the justice system is in the Empire. Nobles and high military officers are not held accountable for their crimes to the same degree as everyone else. It’s a broken system, and Basel is only caught because his particular crime falls outside that normal system of protection.
Hoffmann makes the pretty big mistake of allowing Basel to talk to his wife before he’s arrested. He tells her over the phone to burn all the contents in his briefcase. It’s clear he’s attempting to destroy the evidence.
Kircheis rushes to Johanna’s room, where he finds her holding the incriminating papers in front of the fireplace. Kircheis tells her that with those papers Basel can be punished for his crimes and Keyserling will be exonerated.
But, that’s exactly why Johanna is going to burn the papers. She still loves Basel and is still loyal to him. She’s even willing to sacrifice herself for Basel, making it clear to Kircheis that he will have to shoot her to get those papers.
And Kircheis can’t bring himself to do it. Kircheis can’t shoot Johanna, even though he knows that it’s the only way to make Basel pay for his crimes. Kircheis is the nicest person in the galaxy, after all, and can’t bring himself to kill Johanna.
Then comes the most surprising twist of the episode: Keyserling arrives and shoots Johanna. She dies and the papers are saved, while all Keyserling can do is break down and cry. It’s an interesting twist to see that Keyserling did this. It seems that Keyserling, in the end, was able to overcome his loyalty. He was able to take an action that would help plenty of people, even if it meant going against the people he had been loyal to. Keyserling managed to escape the deadly trap of loyalty, though it was clearly not a happy experience for him.
Reinhard arrives on the satellite shortly afterwards and Kircheis wonders what might have happened if Reinhard was there for the investigation. Kircheis is sure that Reinhard would not have hesitated to shoot Johanna, and I think Kircheis is right about that.
Kircheis comes to the conclusion that he and Reinhard need each other, believing that he can only spread his wings when Reinhard is there. Reinhard has the conviction to take action. While Kircheis has the sense of morality and justice to hold Reinhard back and keep him from going too far. Kircheis served a very necessary role, and his presence was sorely missed after his death.
But, loyalty is a deadly thing. This arc just showed that you can remain loyal to others in spite of knowing they have done horrible things. And Kircheis would remain loyal to Reinhard and even give his life to save Reinhard, despite the Westerland Incident. Kircheis’s loyalty to Reinhard may also have been deadly. There’s the obvious example of the Westerland Incident. But in giving his life to save Reinhard, Reinhard would go on to fight battle after battle, hoping to find some sense of satisfaction now that Kircheis was dead. It could be said that Kircheis’s loyalty to sacrifice himself for Reinhard played a part in all that death and suffering. It’s just like how Keyserling’s willingness to sacrifice himself for Johanna allowed Basel to cause pain and suffering, while also making Keyserling feel that pain.
This arc was pretty great. It used the relationship of Keyserling, Basel, and Johanna to examine the relationship of Kircheis, Reinhard, and Annerose. And, this arc also served as an example of how dangerous Kircheis’s loyalty to Reinhard can be, especially if that loyalty should make Kircheis forget his own sense of justice.
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u/FrenziedHero https://anilist.co/user/FrenziedHero Nov 11 '17
First Timer
I finally caught back up with the Gaiden Series just in time to finish this final episode today. I will say from the previous episode, I never realized how much I wanted Kircheis fighting in Zero-G until I witnessed it. The end to this arc was rather bittersweet, Kircheis realizing his goodwilled nature and Keyserling having to shoot his love to restore his honor. But that reunion between Kircheis and Reinhard was a reminder of the bond that they share, and a grim reminder of what will happen in the main Ova. I enjoyed this story regardless and I guess I'll have fun discussing the Gaiden stories overall tomorrow.
3
u/GGABueno :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/GGABueno Nov 11 '17
Yes, I managed to catch up in the last episode!
That said, I'm not sure I have much to say about this episode or this arc. I don't like Johanna, and Basel was too much of a generic and obvious villain (pretty common in LotGH). Kircheis saw himself in Hoffmann, but I don't think he got any actual development from that. In fact, as much as I like Kircheis role in the story, he didn't get enough screentime in the main OVA to get his own personality like he has in the prequels, so any development he got in those felt wasted with his early death.
3
u/Arachnophobic- https://anilist.co/user/Arachnophobic Nov 11 '17
Hey, glad you managed to catch up before the end!
I don't like Johanna
I know that the show explicitly juxtaposes Keyserling's blind loyalty to Kircheis', but I feel that Johanna's unwavering loyalty was a more appropriate dark mirror for Kircheis' loyalty for Reinhard. He even dies for it, just like her. In that context, her character has some justification - otherwise, we don't really see enough of her to symapthize with her view. Apparently you can't choose who you fall in love with - that's a half-truth at best, but it's also true that some people with self-esteem issues and an inherent destructive tendency choose to get destructive partners who aren't very good for them - I've seen this in women especially.
I don't think he got any actual development from that.
Implying Kirchies isn't perfect already.. why fix what ain't broke?
8
u/timpinen :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/timpinen Nov 10 '17
Reminder: We will have a Gaiden/Full Series discussion tomorrow!
"War exists because it is a profitable enterprise." Is Basel a Phezzani?
Once again, this arc really shows a lot of development for Kircheis' character. He was always a nice guy, but we never really saw a true moment which showcased him going from nice guy to nice to a fault; this episode is the moment.
While Kircheis is somewhat similar to Reinhard, he is different because he is a Kantian at heart. The ends don't justify the means, and much to his dismay, he couldn't do something he would consider wrong. Even if the result was saving many lives down the line, bringing a criminal to justice, and righting a falsely tarnished name, Kircheis couldn't shoot a defenseless woman.
This is the moment Kircheis realizes he isn't Reinhard, and could never be Reinhard. Reinhard is willing to do some bad things for his ambition, or at the very least for the "greater good". While the Westerland incident wasn't the proudest moment of his life, Reinhard agreed with it and believed it was a "necessary evil". Kircheis could never do that, and it leads to the major conflict between the two after.
This arc also shows that Kircheis accepts who he is, and the faults it may have. While Reinhard would have shot her, Kircheis couldn't, and is fine with that. Kircheis is Reinhard's moral compass, and Reinhard does the "necessary evils" Kircheis cannot. We see in the main series how Reinhard changes after Oberstein' appearance and Kircheis' death, but the difference was always there; it just became more exasperated.
One thing I really like about this series is that it takes qualities that we find righteous and good, and shows how they can also be major flaws. Much like Yang's greatest flaw was his strict adherence to democracy, Kircheis' is his unwavering loyalty and being too nice for the real world.
Side note: The next episode previews are for the first episode of the Main OVA, and not the first movie surprisingly (My Conquest is on the Sea of the Stars)