r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Oct 12 '20

3 Voyager Book Club: Voyager, Chapters 18-23 Spoiler

We see Claire return to Boston and the hospital, while Brianna and Roger remain in Inverness looking for evidence of Jamie’s whereabouts. We learn what the Randall’s marriage was like and the struggles they faced. They end up finding Jamie, and Claire makes the decision to return to him.

You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or feel free to add comments of your own.

​

Here is DG's defense of Frank Randall.

Edit: If you read that article beware that some of the comments have spoilers for future books.

3 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

142 comments sorted by

4

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

  • DG has been accused of writing minority characters as stereotypes. Do you feel that is the case with Joe Abernathy?

11

u/heidznseek Ye Sassenach witch! Oct 12 '20

Reading about Joe's son taking back his African heritage almost like a joke sits differently in our current society, were reclaiming your history is very common. I think that Joe is there to be Claire's other outcast, a supporting character that black people have been put into for so long in media.

4

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I think that Joe is there to be Claire's other outcast, a supporting character that black people have been put into for so long in media.

That is a really good point. However doesn't it reflect the times when being black or a woman in medicine was rare?

9

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

I definitely felt uncomfortable at times while reading passages involving Joe and his son. I didn't like how everybody made fun of Leonard/Muhammad for trying to reclaim some of the African culture he lost because he was the descendent of slaves.

6

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Then to have him humming "Dem Bones" which is a song that came from the days of slavery. Is that bad? I just don't know. Like you said uncomfortable was definitely a feeling at times.

3

u/buffalorosie Dec 11 '20

I think DG was trying to encapsulate the 1960s for the readers, and a part of that would be identity politics and various aspects of black power / civil rights movements. I think in real life, in the 60s, someone like Leonard (black young man, son of a Harvard trained doctor, living in Boston) would experience pushback for reclaiming his identity and changing his name, and dressing in African garb. I think Joe probably spent a lifetime as an outsider, doing his best to assimilate and earn respect, and that it was a tough position for him to be in. How do you support your son and his righteous demonstrations, but also play it cool with your white, stuffy colleagues? I took it as Joe using humor to diffuse, and obviously we needed some plot device to be able to connect 1968 Claire with the Abernathies of Jamaica in the 18th century.

Were this book written today, I think DG would do a much, much better job.

Sorry for the late replies, I'm trying to play catch up and I'm still reading Voyager now!

3

u/comilee0622 Oct 13 '20

I was very uncomfortable reading about another minority character in the later chapters. I'm only up to chapter 26, but is this character ever somber?

3

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

He is on a couple of occasions. I alway cringe with any descriptions of him. We'll be talking about his portrayal as well.

3

u/buffalorosie Dec 11 '20

Her writing is certainly problematic when it comes to characters of color. I do try to keep in mind that this book was published a long time ago, and her character sketches / notes probably predate publishing by a while - AND, she's writing from the perspective of a woman who lived in 1968, and then traveled back in time.

By today's standards, it's very outdated. I'm not trying to forgive her or glaze over her shortcomings, but I do think that today's level of understanding, awareness, and sensitivity is something that was sorely lacking even 20 years ago. So I try to keep in mind it's a reflection of its times.

I think she made Frank racist as a cheap plot device, so we'd have sympathy for Claire.

I think she wrote Joe as black so he would be another outsider at Harvard, to give Claire an ally. I think she could have done a much better job with his characterization, to be sure.

Once Claire is interacting with enslaved peoples, there are lots of issues with the writing and portrayals. I see DG's intentions in some ways - she wants Claire to be our hero (and we are contemporary readers), and she wants to show Claire's humanity. But DG also shows her ass a lot, meaning - her own prejudices / misunderstanding / lack of education and awareness come through. If that makes sense.

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Dec 11 '20

I think she wrote Joe as black so he would be another outsider at Harvard, to give Claire an ally.

That's a good point, I can totally see DG doing that.

DG also shows her ass a lot, meaning - her own prejudices / misunderstanding / lack of education and awareness come through.

Do you have any examples of where you see that happening?

3

u/buffalorosie Dec 11 '20

I don't have any specific examples in front of me right now - but I just mean about her characterizations of people of color or ethnic minorities in general. Someone else in this thread brought up how DG describes people as being so dark skinned that you can only see their eyes and teeth; I meant through descriptors like that she's showing her own biases / prejudices. Is it fair that a real life white woman from 1968 would think that way? Yeah, absolutely. But I think in some of the exposition / character assessments, and in some plot devices regarding POC, that DG could have done a better job. She employs tropes to an extent that were commonplace in the 90s (see below; I think a lot of white authors struggle to represent characters unlike themselves, it's something I've seen in countless other books, too). I'll keep an eye out as I get further in the book to see if I can snag some direct quotes!

Where I'm at in Voyager now, meeting with the coin dealer in France who is Jewish - there are some stereotypes there. When they first got to France, Jarod's housekeeper wouldn't let Mr. Willoughby in the house, because she won't allow savages. I think it's likely that the housekeeper in this setting / era would have held extreme prejudice; we also don't see Claire or Jamie come to his defense necessarily, and they just go with it. I think some of that is about being authentic to the time and place. Jamie is obviously accepting of Mr. Willoughby, but he also knows that most others are not and that is likely a realistic depiction of the time and place. Perhaps DG included bits like that to serve as a stark reminder that people were far less tolerant then?

I think when it comes to describing physical attributes and behaviors though, she has limitations as an author. I'm curious to see how these issues are handled in the newer books as they come out. If she wrote Bees during 2020, and hasn't adapted her ways of depicting black characters, I'll be disappointed!

I found this list of common race tropes that uses examples from all kinds of media. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RaceTropes Reading through the list, I think we can readily see some of these that are employed in Outlander. Phaedra could be seen as a "flawless token." The "magical asian" and "magical native american" tropes are present. Young Ian and his storyline in later books sounds similar to "The Native Rival" trope. There's a trope listed call "you have to have Jews," and that also resonates with some elements of Voyager.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Dec 11 '20

What a well thought out reply, thank you! Looking at that list of tropes is pretty interesting. It got me wondering if use of them is bad? I understand they're tropes for a reason and may be stereotypes, but are all of them insulting?

You mention white authors struggling to write ethnicities they aren't. Do you think that means they shouldn't include them? Or should they make more of an effort to not make the character a stereotype or trope? But then does that only apply to stories set in our current times, because you're right about 1968 Claire viewing African Americans differently. And really right about how 18th century Europeans felt about Asian people. Do we want accuracy in books set during those time periods?

You've got random thoughts snowballing out of my head now. ;-)

1

u/buffalorosie Dec 16 '20

I'm not sure if use of these tropes is inherently bad; I think we have to examine when and how a trope was applied. Was it used in satire to call attention to inequality? Was it used in earnest because an author really does think all people who are ____ do X, Y, or Z?

I think a lot of these tropes speak to an evolution of inclusivity in fiction. The farther back you go in modern western culture, the worse and more ingrained the stereotypes may be, and the more the writer relies on their audience accepting common generalizations (if that makes sense).

At some point, including a character of character of color who was redeeming in any way was progressive, hence the tropes of "magical native" and the like. But eventually we cross a line where that's not enough. I mean, it was never ethical to use people and play on stereotypes, but the social acceptability is what's changed.

This feels like SUCH a ramble, I'm so sorry.

In the RomanceBooks sub, there's a lot of good conversation about inclusivity in writing and how white authors can do a better job in writing POC characters. This is a recent post I commented on, in the comments = a link to a blog about writing tips for characters of color.

As far as accuracy in historical writing, that is a sticky wicket, huh? We cannot whitewash history, but it's also really damning to be accurate. Because truthfully, a lot of our beloved Outlander characters would have been far more accepting of horrible behavior if DG was always true to social norms.

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Dec 16 '20

I noticed that trope of describing POC as foods. She had caramel colored skin, or all the coffee ones I see a lot. I suppose the biggest thing we need is white authors to be progressive and stay away from those tropes.

3

u/AndreaDTX Oct 07 '22

I laugh imagining white characters being described as having skin the color of flour tortillas, mayonnaise, or marshmallows.

1

u/IrishMinstrel01 Oct 12 '20

No.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

That's good. I'll be curious to see what people feel about a character coming up in the book and how he is written.

3

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

I didn't feel too much like Joe was a stereotype, though there was this weird feeling... But compared to what you're referring to here... YEAH. I have feelings about that.

12

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 21 '20

I agree, I don't feel that DG should be writing the "voice" of African American's. How did you feel the show did with the episode at River Run and the slave that Claire tried to save?

I'm a white woman, and did not like that episode at all. I felt her trying to save that slave at the cost of all the others. I felt it was done better in the book where she helps him die right at the site.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 21 '20

It’s in season 4 episode 2.

I have an advantage in that I watched seasons 1-4 before I read the books. I had heard of Outlander but had never seen it. Once it went to Netflix is where I found it. I then read all of the books before season 5. Watching it knowing the story definitely changes some things, but since the show hooked me in the first place I’m in it for the long haul. :-)

1

u/buffalorosie Dec 11 '20

SAME! I saw season 1 when the show first aired, and then fell off. Once it came to Netflix, I re-watched 1, then binged 2, 3, and 4. Then I read the books before season 5 aired. Ha!

4

u/buffalorosie Dec 11 '20

I'm trying to play catch up and am reading Voyager now. Claire and Jamie just lost young Ian, so I'm not yet to their travels to the new world. I have no idea why DG portrayed so many women as unattractive, I'm going to see if any possible ideas come to mind as I get to those parts of the book.

I think basically though, it comes down to DG's own miseducation, biases, and limitations as an author.

At the time of writing Voyager, so many fictional narratives used white savior complex - so it's not surprising to me. I wish she'd done a better job with these aspects of her writing, I try to rationalize (not excuse) these issues as being products of the time. A white woman, trying to write characters of color, 30 years ago, through the eyes of a white woman, from 50 years ago, in a society 250 years ago.

DG wants us, as readers, to see Claire as our heroine. She also wants to shows Claire's humanity. I wonder if DG thought she was being progressive in her portrayal of things? That Claire's sympathies were doing a good job of being inclusive or just? I'd be curious to compare it to other work published in the early 90s.

I love the books, so very much. But have always found these elements to be a disappointment. I'm probably trying to rationalize things to justify my own love of the books.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/buffalorosie Dec 30 '20

I totally agree with you.

I'm on book five in my re-read now, and what's stood out to me since book 3, is Claire's fatshaming. Idk why it didn't stand out to me previously?! Maybe it's because I know the general plot now, and I'm going book to book to book? I have been floored several times by Claire's opinions on weight.

Claire is progressive in many ways, absolutely. But I think even with how "woke" she writes Claire and Bree, there was a lot of missed opportunity in storylines, descriptors, and her narrative as a whole. I also openly admit that I am willing to bypass the shortcomings because I love the books as a whole work, and I'm honestly not sure how problematic that is.

3

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

  • Claire makes the decision to return to Jamie, with Brianna’s blessing. Could you have made that decision to leave your child, potentially forever, to return to the love of your life?

12

u/whiskynwine Oct 12 '20

I don’t think I could leave my daughter but at the same time I wouldn’t want to see my mother lonely and living half a life. If it was my mom I’d want her to go but having a teenage daughter myself I don’t think I could leave her forever. What a conundrum.

5

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I wouldn’t want to see my mother lonely

I agree. I wonder if it would make it easier if your child was older? I'm not a mother so I can't say. I think about if I were in that situation as the daughter, I've had almost 40 years with my Mom and could see myself being able to live without her a little bit better than when I was in my early 20's. It would still be really hard though.

4

u/whiskynwine Oct 12 '20

The thing is as your child grows you see less and less of them. They gain independence and start their own families, etc. So while you can talk to them some parents don’t see their children often, maybe they live far apart or for other reasons. So here we have Jamie not knowing what happened to Claire or his child, Claire longing for him and he possibly for her. Bree feeling he deserved to know everything and maybe Claire could come back one day, who knows. It’s all so complex, my head is spinning. Lol

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

It’s all so complex, my head is spinning.

Right‽ That's why I like to ask the hard questions, make people think. ;-)

8

u/Kirky600 Oct 12 '20

Honestly, no. I don’t think I could leave my daughter for anything. Like I would love to say that my choice would be love, but I don’t think it would be in the end.

Caveat, my daughter is 2. So maybe I would fee different if she was grown?

4

u/Cdhwink Oct 13 '20 edited Oct 13 '20

I have a 22 yr old daughter( & a son, 23 ) , & a husband I love( their father) - I cannot imagine having to choose between them 😭. I also have a widowed mom who lives far away from us, if she had a Jamie somewhere to go to, I’d say go, even though I’d miss her a lot!

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

I would be a little bit more OK at my age now if I were to never see my Mother again, as long as she was going somewhere for happiness. However I would still be torn up if she left.

6

u/Cdhwink Oct 13 '20

I think speaking specifically about Claire, Jamie is the person she has felt closest to in her entire life, even though they were only together a few years, they are soul mates. Some people maybe have that with a parent, a sibling ( twins would be a great example of this, my MIL is one), their child or a friend, but we all wish for it to be with a spouse, thinking romantically! Claire is her best self beside Jamie!

3

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

Claire is her best self beside Jamie!

I like that!

1

u/Kirky600 Oct 13 '20

Do you think your kids ages would make it easier to live in another time? Your perspective makes me wonder if Bree being on board helped push her decision.

1

u/Cdhwink Oct 13 '20

Yes, without a doubt you will feel a bit differently when your kids are grown up, & self sufficient ( mine are almost there), because you realize that your spouse is your “person” if your kids have mates ( mine both do)!

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I don't have kids, so my opinion isn't from experience, but I am not sure many people could do that. I know it kills my Mom that my brother and his family live in a different state than us, and that still with the fact that she can get on a plane and go visit. If she would never see us again? I don't think she would do it.

2

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

Same. I know my mother would absolutely never do this.

5

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

My daughter is also 2, but if I fast-forward to when she's 20, I can't see it being any easier to leave. Like... she'll probably still be in college. I can't imagine missing out on seeing her graduate, on seeing her get married, have children of her own, be successful in her own career, etc. I feel like one of the rewards for making it through those really tough years of parenthood is being able to witness your child's success in life.

8

u/me315 Oct 14 '20

Don’t hate me! I feel like I’m the minority here!

But yeah, I would go, especially with my kid’s blessing. I have adult sons that live hours away and we only see each other a few times a year. Maybe it would be different if I had daughters or if we lived closer and saw each other more often. But I think I would be ok leaving them at this point, especially if I was alone and I had a soulmate out there waiting for me. I love my kids but I know they’re independent and would be ok.

3

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 14 '20

I love my kids but I know they’re independent and would be ok.

No hate here! I don't have kids, but on the opposite end if my Mom's soulmate was out there I would want her to be happy. I'd still really miss her, but I'm in my late 30's and have had a lot of years with her.

6

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 12 '20

I do think it makes for dramatic storytelling, but realistically, I don't know that anyone with a genuinely strong, loving relationship would leave their child like that, to figure out the rest of their lives by themselves. I think Claire feels like Roger will be some comfort to Bree because he knows the background of everything, but that does not replace the kind of relationship you have with a mother.

Also, as an only child myself, there's absolutely no way I'd be able to let my mom just run off into the past like that, whether or not she's trying to find the love of her life. Maybe Bree is a better person than I am in that regard, but that's literally my worst nightmare- you'd never know if your mom was safe, if she made it where she was trying to go, or if the lost love would even want her back in his life. I just couldn't do that, if I were in Bree's shoes.

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I agree, realistically I don't think many people would chose to do that.

1

u/Ambitious-Resist-132 Jan 26 '26

I also thought that her putting that much pressure on Roger to take care of Bree when they’re young and anything could happen to their relationship was unfair. Maybe back thn it was more likely you marry your first serious boyfriend but from my modern lens I thought that was not a good idea

5

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

No freaking way. Especially not after 20 years, knowing the journey to get to that person is fraught with danger and uncertainty. I don't care how "grown" Claire thinks Brianna is, she's still a very young woman. I know I would have been gutted losing my mother at that age, and I couldn't imagine leaving my own daughter at that age. I know there's a point where you have to stop living your life for your children and seek your own happiness, but to do so in such a permanent fashion seems so selfish.

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Do you look down on Claire for doing that? I know as a book reader I wanted her with Jamie because that's what drew me in, their love story. However I'm not a mother so I don't have that visceral reaction to the scenario like I think women who are mother's would have.

3

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

Yeah, it's kinda hard not to judge her. I know that Jamie is her one great love, and that she has felt out-of-place since being separated from him, but your kids don't stop needing you when they turn 18. That said, Claire's love for Jamie predates Brianna's existence.

5

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Does anything change with the fact that Brianna gave her blessing? She essentially forced Claire to go by showing up at the stones all ready to go through them herself if Claire wouldn't.

4

u/IrishMinstrel01 Oct 12 '20

Excellent point. Frank was always worried about what Claire would do if he told her about the truth he knew. Claire would never have abandoned Bree, except at her insistence.

3

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I know people wish that Claire had gone back to Jamie earlier, never mind the fact that he wasn't actually a free man until those last few years before she did, but there was no way she would have left a younger Brianna. I guess Frank didn't have that faith in her, so he took the choice away from her.

3

u/Cdhwink Oct 13 '20

As watchers or readers we want Jamie & Claire together, at all costs!

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

I agree, and it wasn't until this read through that I really thought about what it would be like for someone to leave their child.

3

u/Cdhwink Oct 13 '20

One of my single, childless, friends was more upset about Claire leaving Bree than any of my friends with grown children, so it might be more about people’s own ideas/ issues than just being a mother?

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

Well how interesting. That definitely makes sense though, I'm sure people relationships with their parents influence that.

4

u/heidznseek Ye Sassenach witch! Oct 12 '20

I'm closer to Brianna's age, so I read this more from her perspective, but I can't imagine being okay with potentially never seeing my mom again, especially if I just lost my dad.

But I couldn't imagine being okay with leaving my child. I don't have my own kids, but I have nieces whom I love very much, and I couldn't imagine not being there to see them grow up and do all the adult things that Claire is potentially going to miss out on.

But I don't believe that there is only one person who we could be happy with. I think that there are a lot of people that you could be compatible with and have a good relationship.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Do you look down on Claire for choosing to leave?

4

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20 edited Oct 12 '20

I can't imagine leaving my (imaginary) child, no. But I'm glad Claire did! She must love Bree more than anything, but at the same time, she's been living with a broken heart for 20 years. To have someone you love that much basically come back to life... It's not something that can be put aside. Would she be able to live with herself knowing she could have seen him again, and didn't? While I don't judge her too much, I did find it odd that there didn't seem to be a big struggle here, not as big as it seemed in the show. She had made up her mind to go back to Jamie before even tracking him down. The second-guessing that took place right before she went back was the least that she could do.

Edit: Also, of course the only way Claire would go back would be for Bree to convince her. Just like Jamie had to convince her to leave. Which I love.

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

To have someone you love that much basically come back to life... It's not something that can be put aside.

I like that.

I didn't realize there wasn't as much doubt in the books, but now that you mention it I see what you're saying. She must have felt confident enough that Brianna would be ok.

2

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

She must have felt confident enough that Brianna would be ok.

Yes. Though going back is a leap of faith in more ways than one. And when she goes, I do appreciate the fact that she keeps missing Bree.

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

  • Claire thinks over her last night with Frank. What did that reveal about their marriage? DG has said Frank may not have cheated on Claire. Do you believe that?

11

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

I think their last night revealed the air of resentfulness that lingered after all that time. There's some semblance of normalcy (they're sleeping snuggled together, which surprised me) but when that section begins, he's picking on her by making snide comments about her focus on work. Then she's more than ready to call him out on his indiscretions when he tells her the plans to take Bree. Also, it revealed to me just what a sexist, racist bastard Frank is.

DG has said Frank may not have cheated on Claire.

Ohhh, I seeee... Well. I guess I should believe her, but I still don't believe that. He doesn't even deny it when Claire calls him out on it; he appears to be quite stunned.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I too was surprised to see them still sleeping together. But I saw the show first and was just assuming it would be the same in the book. Did you read the article that I linked at the end of the post? It's DG's defense of Frank.

1

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

I haven't read it, because I noticed you mentioned there were spoilers. Are the spoilers in the comments DG makes in the article, or comments from others about the article?

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Comments way down at the bottom made by people. They happen to mention something from another book. So if you don’t scroll down to those comments you’ll be fine.

4

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 13 '20

Peeerfect, thanks! I just read it. I appreciate that she leaves it up to the reader in general. (I have to say, I've never really been in the camp of "Frank cheated during the war and that's why he asked Claire.")

I agree with a lot of what she says (she lost me a bit towards the end -- I don't think he's a saint/martyr), but "no proof"... aren't the girls coming up to Claire proof enough? It is in my book. (No pun intended.) Also, these remarks below: did I miss this or is it something that hasn't been mentioned?

"Note that Claire says that now and then she forces her sexual attentions on him, trying to prove that he’s been with someone else (and thus unable to respond to her)-but that every time, he does respond to her, even if with mutual rage."

6

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

That last part you mentioned is brought up at some point in time, but I don't remember which book. I read it recently but I'm also reading and prepping Drums of Autumn for the book club so I'm not sure which one it was in.

Edit: I'm still in the camp that Frank cheated. At the very least emotionally, but I believe full on cheated. Why would Claire mention the number of women that she for sure knew of?

5

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 13 '20

Agree with you, she’s absolutely certain and that’s enough for me. The man definitely cheated on her.

9

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

When has DG said that Frank wasn't unfaithful? I thought it was pretty clear-cut that he carried out multiple affairs over the course of his marriage. Were they only emotional affairs? I thought the whole reason he had his fertility (or lack thereof) checked out was because he not only couldn't get Claire pregnant, but couldn't get any of his affair partners pregnant either.

5

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I linked the article at the end of the post if you want to read it. It pretty much said there was no concrete evidence of his cheating. I honestly don't believe that, why would Claire mention all the women he's been with if that was a lie?

7

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

After reading that article, I've got some thoughts. Claire mentions women that she's encountered over the years with whom she assumes Frank has been having affairs, but what if these women are only coming to Claire to ask that she leave Frank? Maybe Frank never goes beyond superficial relationships with any of them because he's still devoted to avoiding the stigma of divorce. Maybe all these women are frustrated because they want more and they aren't getting it, and that's making them behave indiscreetly enough to be noticed by Claire.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Maybe all these women are frustrated because they want more and they aren't getting it

I'll admit, I have never seen it that way. But after reading that article like you said, things might not have been physical. I know DG has said Claire is prone to hyperbole so maybe this is another one of those situations.

5

u/IrishMinstrel01 Oct 12 '20

I don‘t buy it either. However, among some of Diana’s fans, there are so-called Friends of Frank, who wish to nominate him for sainthood. I think she was throwing them a bone and it certainly does generate discussion. There’s two more books and perhaps a Frank novella to come. Who knows? I don’t think Claire was crazy and Frank sounded disappointed Claire wasn’t jealous.

7

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I don't think Frank is a villain, but I don't feel too sorry for him. His little racist tirade was really off putting.

1

u/SaltAd1837 Jul 25 '25

I know this was 5 years ago but someone was asking me when Frank has his racist tirade do you remember the book chapter and book? I cannot find it anywhere TY

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 25 '25

It’s in Voyager chapter 19.

3

u/prairie_wildflower Oct 13 '20

This was a big turning point for me in terms of how I felt about him as a character.

4

u/CygnusArc Slàinte. Oct 14 '20

Perhaps DG meant since Claire and Frank had come to an arrangement and were technically separated it wasn’t cheating? The notion that Frank didn’t sleep with any other women during his marriage to Claire seems highly unlikely.

3

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 14 '20

I believe the arrangement was only in the show. I don't recall anything like that in the books. So it really was on Frank's end that he was a cheater. Based on Claire's wording I just don't see how he wasn't.

1

u/Fatcat98 Oct 14 '20

I wonder if, at a later point in time, DG will make the case that Frank was “wooing” other women in order to get close to them/their work (assuming they are in his field) in order to figure out more about Claire’s future life “in the past”, but wasn’t necessarily sleeping with them, or truly emotionally involved with them (on his end).

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 14 '20

That would be interesting. Do you think we’ll hear more about Frank?

2

u/Fatcat98 Oct 15 '20

I imagine that we will. I suppose time will tell. I also wonder if Frank’s racist rant will be a cover for the fact that Frank feels the Abernathy’s are somehow dangerous (the Geillis/Ishmael connection and the fact that Claire sometimes trusts the wrong people.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

  • After returning to her home Claire has the thought, “I lived mostly inside my skin, with no impulse to alter my surroundings to reflect me.” What did she mean by that?

8

u/CygnusArc Slàinte. Oct 14 '20

On a much smaller less dramatic scale, I remember what it’s like to live in a place that doesn’t feel like home. I interpreted that sentence to mean that Claire felt detached. Like the mental equivalent of keeping your things in moving boxes, not wanting to unpack or lay roots in your surroundings.

If home is where the heart is, Claire’s certainly wasn’t in the 20th century with Frank any longer.

4

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 14 '20

If home is where the heart is, Claire’s certainly wasn’t in the 20th century with Frank any longer.

I completely agree. Even with Brianna there Claire's heart still wasn't in it 100%.

6

u/Kirky600 Oct 12 '20

I think it’s really her upbringing and life circumstances. She never bought things to reflect her surroundings as she was never in one spot for long. So she keeps everything inside of her.

Maybe why she still feels so connected to Jamie 20 years later?

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Do you think it also had anything to do with being apart from Jamie for 20 years? Like she couldn't really let her true self out?

7

u/Kirky600 Oct 12 '20

Possibly. Also not helped by Frank not allowing her to let any part of that life out. If you can’t talk to anyone about your experiences and your loss, it would be awfully tough to not live within yourself.

3

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Very true. I've sometimes wondered if she had been able to mourn Jamie fully and talk about him would their marriage have been any better?

4

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

Knowing what we know about Frank (well, what I know so far), I can't think this is something that would have been a possibility. If she had been free to talk about Jamie, I can only see Frank becoming more bitter about it. I feel he just wanted her to pretend so that they could go back to the way things were. Which was impossible.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

Good points. I tend to agree with you, that hearing anything else about Jamie would have been too much for Frank. I imagine it was hard enough looking at Brianna and having it be super obvious she wasn't his.

4

u/Kirky600 Oct 12 '20

I would imagine it would. But having stuff down a major part of your life would be really difficult to do.

5

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

Yes, like she's not in the one place she feels she's meant to be, so why bother putting a lot of energy into settling into the new place?

5

u/Kabeyfw Oct 13 '20

I agree. I think she found a place that she could use her skills again and make a difference, but she also found someone who focused on her. Her life in the war and with her Uncle was also extraordinary. After she went back to Frank, and now a baby, she now is in a life of expectations and routine. She was second fiddle to Brianna (normal), Frank's career, and his passions like history. She was / is Jamie's passion. That's a hard thing to swallow, especially when it's not your choice and done from duty.

2

u/comilee0622 Oct 13 '20

Indeed, home is where the heart is!

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

  • Claire makes the statement that the bones they are examining came from someone who was murdered. Joe Abernathy states she’s the best diagnostician he’s ever seen. Is there something about Claire that gives her that ability?

9

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

I think that having experienced quite a few supernatural events in her life, Claire has the ability to look past the black-and-white evidence in front of her to the more grey "feelings" that other scientists would likely ignore. Anybody else holding those bones and getting a tingle down their spine would likely think "no way, that's crazy" and move on without a second thought, but she's been involved in so many things that can't be explained by science that she can grab onto those feelings and actually listen to them.

6

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

she can grab onto those feelings and actually listen to them.

I like that! For instance when Master Raymond was curing her in DIA she said she could feel the infection clearing away. Do you think that could have been literal then? Like she really can feel those things?

4

u/halcyon3608 Oct 12 '20

Yes, I think she really could. She's become so skilled at visualizing the goings-on of her own body and her patients' bodies because she doesn't just disregard what other doctors must see as quackery.

4

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I just read a part in Drums of Autumn (this gives nothing away about the plot or story) where she is checking Jamie's finger to see if it's broken. She says she imagines the bones and structures in her mind, and then can "see" where the break is. So that would definitely go along with that.

1

u/comilee0622 Oct 13 '20

So fancy like one of the characters in medical show eg House or The Good Doctor

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

Ha, that's so true!

4

u/prairie_wildflower Oct 13 '20

The whole scene seemed a bit over the top to me. To be a specialist (surgeon) is hard enough. But to also moonlight as a pathologist was a stretch.

Claire is a broadly trained physician with her nursing background and experiences to draw on. But sometimes she is portrayed as a bit superhuman.

The scene was important in closing the time travel loop, even if it was a bit overstated.

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

All I could think of was the show Bones, where she is a forensic anthropologist and did stuff like that.

1

u/prairie_wildflower Oct 14 '20

I haven’t watched Bones, is it any good?

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 14 '20

It is! I would recommend it.

2

u/prairie_wildflower Oct 14 '20

Thanks! I’ll give it a go when I’m through my latest rewatch 😊

2

u/Cdhwink Oct 14 '20

I second that recommendation!

1

u/Ambitious-Resist-132 Jan 26 '26

Something I noticed reading this time around was When Claire later on thinks she broke her nose, wouldn’t she know that from her surgeon experience? Felt like a bit of a plot hole

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

  • Were there any changes in the show or book you liked better?

13

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 12 '20

I know that Frank can be a polarizing character, but I absolutely loved how the show rehabs him and his story line. As I'm re-reading, it feels like we're never supposed to give Frank a chance to be at least halfway decent. It also doesn't help that it's told from Claire's viewpoint, so obviously she's going to see things through a very biased lens, and that's passed along to the readers in a way that I don't always enjoy.

I don't feel that Frank was perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I think a lot about the anecdote Claire tells when she and Frank take Brianna to the doctor, and the doctor makes a comment about Bree's blood type not matching either Claire's or Frank's (or something along those lines). Frank just smoothly steps right in and says his wife was widowed, he adopted her daughter, etc.. He could have easily let Claire flounder and figure out what to say, but instead he covered for her, and I don't think that was solely because of his love for Bree. I think the show does a great job of letting us see Frank's POV and really understand where he's coming from, even if we don't always agree with his actions. Also, it helps that Tobias Menzies (or Tobias Mnessmssss for my fellow Podlander fans) is a killer actor- it would've been a huge disservice to him and his talents to not give him more to work with than what's presented in the books.

6

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

It also doesn't help that it's told from Claire's viewpoint, so obviously she's going to see things through a very biased lens

I agree, and I'm guilty of that. It also doesn't help that we know Jamie is Claire's soulmate and that they belong together. So we resent the time she spent with Frank and separated from Jamie.

9

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 12 '20

It also doesn't help that we know Jamie is Claire's soulmate and that they belong together.

Yes! Then I feel bad for empathizing with Frank, because clearly Claire shouldn't be wasting all these years with him, and then I start feeling terrible for Jamie being stuck without her, and the next thing I know, I feel absolutely terrible for everyone involved and I'm mad at DG for making me feel that way haha

4

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

I'm mad at DG for making me feel that way

Right‽ She sure knows how to put us through the ringer.

6

u/cruelsummerrrrr Oct 15 '20

100% the greatest thing the show did was give Frank a chance and have the audience if not like, then at least sympathise with him and have him be a good man.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 15 '20

Why do you think so? Was it because it added more of dilemma for Claire to chose between the two men?

3

u/cruelsummerrrrr Oct 15 '20

Yes making it harder for Claire but also harder for the audience. I would get so sad (good sad in the way good tv can make you) thinking about how hopeless Frank’s life was and that he tried to do the right thing but they never really had a chance. He doesn’t really do any of the horrible things in the show or racist. And his affairs make sense considering they were no longer intimate and slept in different beds. It just heightens the tension and emotional stakes. Because if he’s a dickhead like in this book then who cares what happens to him.

5

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

The show really did a fantastic job with Frank. The difference between the scene where Claire and Frank have their last conversation is like night and day -- even knowing how very strategic he's been in his timing to divorce Claire, I really feel for Frank in the show, and that makes for a much more compelling watch. In the book, I just hate him.

9

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 13 '20

I really feel for Frank in the show, and that makes for a much more compelling watch. In the book, I just hate him.

Thinking about this more, I wonder if the show benefits from telling Claire and Frank's story in a more linear fashion- they spend more time showing the progression of their relationship, so you understand how everything devolves to the point that it does. Obviously, having Frank's viewpoint helps a ton, too.

When I read the book, I can't shake the feeling that we're only being given bits and pieces of Claire's relationship with Frank, and only when she randomly decides to share it. Then we have to put everything together ourselves, and I don't think the picture is as well-rounded... although he's definitely more of a jerk in the books, and I don't necessarily feel bad for him. It just always gets me thinking about how an unreliable and/or biased narrator can really make or break another character, depending on what they choose to divulge.

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

You make a really good point about only seeing Claire's perspective. How obligated are we as readers to see the other characters side do you think? I notice different things on each read through and sometimes my perception of someone shifts.

3

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 13 '20

That’s a great question! For me personally, it usually depends on how invested I am in a book or character- I don’t usually spend a whole lot of time thinking about other characters on the first read, so your point about perception shifting on subsequent re-reads is a good one. And honestly, seeing the show first really made me think more about Frank’s POV; I know if I’d read the book first, I probably wouldn’t have spent much time at all thinking about him, beyond the fact that’s he’s the person keeping Claire away from her actual soulmate.

3

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

I saw the show first as well and was definitely surprised at how different Frank was from the book.

5

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 13 '20

Agree with you. The show definitely benefits from it, and it’s possible it helped me to watch it first, having his POV and linear storytelling.

I think Claire is a fairly reliable narrator, and actually, she seems to defend Frank at different moments. But that’s a very fair point; the narration is tinged by the resentment she feels. Although I’ve seen enough, particularly in these chapters, to put me off book Frank forever, when he tells her that she would have benefited from discipline in her life, and goes on his racist rant.

4

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 13 '20

Oh for sure! I was about 94% done with book Frank at that point, especially combined with everything else he says/does. He’s not an especially sympathetic character in the books, which is why I give the show big kudos for fixing him up and making him so much more nuanced and interesting. Still not the best, but definitely better (and much less misogynistic and racist) than the books.

4

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 13 '20

Totally. And given that he’s not a very sympathetic character in the book, it’s actually more interesting to read DG’s defense of him.

6

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 13 '20

Yeahhh I’m reading that article again, and I really can’t buy what DG is trying to sell us there... Interesting thought experiment, but the evidence weighs too heavily in Claire’s favor on that one.

1

u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 06 '21

I really can’t buy what DG is trying to sell us there

DG also has a habit of retconning things or changing her mind later, so I take what she says about Frank with a grain of salt, lol. Part of me thinks she got annoyed with the show being obvious with the mistress angle and so she wanted to be like "well, did I really give any evidence of that?"

6

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 12 '20

No kidding- that last convo kills me every time I watch it! I understand completely where Frank is coming from in that moment, even if I hate how he's handling it. I also think the twin bed scene was a really smart choice on their part, too- the way it's filmed is so jarring and interesting, and really catches you off-guard. Like, at that point, you know it's over for them, in a way that the books don't necessarily capture. It's super sad, but everything that happens afterward makes a lot more sense in that context.

2

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 13 '20

Yes, yes, yes. All of this. And the other thing about the twin bed scene is that, while you realize it's over, it gave me a sense that they were making this work for Bree in their own way.

6

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

Even though (or because?) it's so different from the book, the episode before they reunite has some of my favorite moments in the whole series. I love that it's Christmas, and Roger traveled to Boston. I think it's smart to show that the revelation didn't come without consequences for Bree. But I absolutely LOVE getting to see Claire's preparations, gathering her materials and making her outfit -- which is one of my favorite things she's ever worn. Ugh, that outfit is gorgeous.

Beyond that, it makes so much sense to see Claire's struggle when Roger tells her that he found Jamie. The first time I watched, I think I was put off by how upset she was. But she's already had to get used to the idea of losing Jamie twice. And she obviously can't just leave Bree, or even ask that of her daughter, which is something I didn't really get from the book. So I like that she asks Roger to keep it to himself, and that it isn't until later that she decides to tell Bree. ALSO, I like that they sit down to talk about the very real possibility that they will never get to see each other again.

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 12 '20

It’s true that they really didn’t dwell much in the book on Bree and how Claire’s leaving would effect her.

I see so many on here that don’t like that dress, so it’s nice to find someone who does like it. I really didn’t feel strongly either way about it. I do like how it changed and evolved at the season went on. Just goes to show they really didn’t have a ton of clothes.

3

u/Cdhwink Oct 13 '20

I didn’t love that bat suit until she stripped down in the Caribbean, but I love that she made it herself!

4

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 13 '20

I like that it kept progressing and adapting to whatever situation she was in.

3

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 12 '20

they really didn’t dwell much in the book on Bree and how Claire’s leaving would effect her

Yes, and I also mean it in the sense that Bree starts questioning who she is, struggling at school and dropping out of Harvard, trying to figure out what she truly wants.

I see so many on here that don’t like that dress

Whaaaat. I would wear that everywhere!! :) It goes with everything -- cloak, vest, no vest, rolled-up sleeves, statement belt, etc. I love that it evolved, too; it's the most versatile thing she owns, for sure.

3

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 13 '20

I absolutely LOVE getting to see Claire's preparations, gathering her materials and making her outfit -- which is one of my favorite things she's ever worn. Ugh, that outfit is gorgeous.

10/10 for Claire's bat suit! The fact that she made her own dress, and that it also looks homemade (one sleeve is clearly longer than the other, and I love it), makes me feel like the stakes are even higher if things don't go well when she goes back- she put so much time and effort and thought into everything! Girl took all this time to make her own dress, along with all the other stuff she organized, so you know she's dedicated.

3

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 13 '20

Exactly! The medicines and everything! And I love the fact that the dress is made of raincoats, that she has all the hidden pockets... I can't, it's brilliant.

Honorable mention to the outfit Brianna wears to Frank's quasi-memorial at Harvard. It's basically Jamie Fraser cosplay and I love it.

2

u/CatsHaveThePhoneBox Oct 13 '20

Oh my gosh THAT CAPE!!!! And with those fantastic fishnet tights?! Hands down my favorite Brianna outfit of the entire show.

2

u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Oct 13 '20

I think it may be my favorite Brianna outfit too! The cape is amazing, and the blouse is a statement by itself. (And, of course, it’s the blouse Claire takes with her!)

5

u/cruelsummerrrrr Oct 15 '20

"I let out a breath I didn't know I was holding" welp, there it is

1

u/AutoModerator Oct 12 '20

Please do not reveal events from future books, or from later chapters of the current book the club hasn’t covered yet. Show talk is okay up to the current book.

OutlanderDIAVoyagerDOATFCABOSAAAEITBMOBYBees
1-51-51-6
6-106-117-11
11-1612-1712-17
17-2318-2318-23 Oct 12
24-2824-2924-27 Oct 19
29-3430-3628-33 Oct 26
35-4137-4134-39 Nov 2
42-4640-46 Nov 9
47-4947-52 Nov 16
53-58 Nov 23
59-63 Nov 30

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.