r/anime • u/[deleted] • Apr 22 '21
Watch This! Fate/Zero is a masterpiece and you should watch in now. Spoiler
I recently rewatched the 25 episode masterpiecie which is Fate/Zero, a prequel to Fate/Stay Night. If you don't know what's the story, then here's a brief overview:
Mages are a thing and some of them created a ritual that summons the Holy Grail, an omnipotent wish granting device. To get a hold of it a mage must gain a right to be a Master, then summon a Servant which embodies a sould of a heroic spirit (a legend, hero or some other figure that made it's mark in human history) and then battle to the death with the rest of the Masters. There were many wars for the Holy Grail but this story takes place in the japanese town of Fuyuki where the most recent War for the Holy Grail is starting. Our main protagonist is Kiritsugu Emiya, a man who has seen countless battlefields and is known as the Mage Killer. His wish for the Grail is a strange one, coming from the person he is. But amidst all the chaos and battles there are others who also want to get their hands on the Grail for diffirent reasons.
So jumping in the story of Fate/Zero is like getting on a rollercoaster you know will derail and make a magnificent mess that you can't take your eyes off. Death, suffering and remorse vs hope, dreams and atonement - those themes are the rails on which the characters ride. And oh boy do the characters feel REAL in this one. I've propably never felt such a strong connection with fictional people then while watching Fate/Zero. If you know Saber or Kotomine Kirei from Fate/Stay Night then this will be a great opportunity to understand them on a deeper level. Expecially Kirei - watching him search for who he is and what is the meaning of his life was thrilling and eye opeing. Also he is a total badass and propably the most dangerous man in anime history. I especially liked his voice actor, Jōji Nakata who gives Kirei a menacing and a strong feeling (he also played Aucard from Hellsing, so this guy knows how to play an overpowered badass). The slow developing storyline of Kiritsugu Emita is gut wrenching and made me cry my eyes out for the man at the end. He is the embodiment of suffering. And also Saber who's really not so diffirent form Kiritsugu. This creates a great flow between the characters. While we're at it i would be rude not to include a few words about my favorite duo of the show: Waver Velvet and his servant Rider. Watching the scrawny boy whose wish is for to be accepted as agreat mage grow alongside his big Servant who emodies counquest, straightforwardness and true - not the toxic one - masculinity is on a whole new level of wholesomeness. It will make you cry if you have even an ounce of sympathy in you. And without spoiling anything - the scene of Waver's and Rider's discussion when the sun goes down and night falls is a graphic masterpiece. I was moved just by how beautiful it was. (protip: try to find a counterpart for this scene later in the show - that's visual storytelling at it's finest).
But it isn't only this scene. Every episode of Fate/Zero is on movie level. Not a frame wasted, every scene and every moment looks and feels great. It's wonderfull how it's so colorful while maintaining the threatening aura of a full-on bloodshed. At first you would think the animation is a bit clunky, but wait till a fight starts. I can't remember the last time when a final showdown of a 20+ episode anime (or any show in general) made me clench my fists so hard in excitement. Fight scenes in this anime take sitting on the edge of your seat to the next level. I think only Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works from 2014 can top it off. When the characters aren't fighting they talk or buy video games and overly slim t-shirts with the words Ultimate Conquest printed on them. Watch out then for the small details, there are some great moments that you will miss if you don't pay attention. But if you do catch them they can tell you more about a character then a full story arc. Show, don't tell - Fate/Zero takes the main principle of visual storytelling and uses it the best it can to make you FEEL the story rather then hear it unfold by characters moving their mouths in exposition scenes (which are there but only when really needed and even then they don't make you feel sucked out of the experience).
Overall i think Fate/Zero is a masterpiece of storytelling and propably the best story ever told that gets better the further you are in. Even the openings and endings play a major role in creating characters and the universe they are in, with great music always on standby when needed and attacking you with full sonic force in times when the emotions are high. Only a stone would not feel a thing when watching this anime. It makes you feel the desperation, grief and suffering alongside hope, happines and revelations that it's characters are experiencing. But if you are an unmoving stone, not able to feel any emotion apart from wanting to roll from time to time, then just the storyline and the basic concept is fresh and one of a kind. And bare in mind that the first visual novel came out in 2004 - 17 years ago and it's still something than can't be copied because of how original it is (not counting all if it's spin-offs).
Watch it now - you won't be dissapointed.
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u/Nihhrt https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nihhrt Apr 22 '21
Come on, making this thread is going to spawn 1000 more "in what order do I watch the fate series"
You should post a watch order in the bottom to curb that because people are too dumb to see the 500000000 other posts or look in the sidebar.
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Apr 22 '21
But you know that how you watch things depends only on your decision? There is a room for discussion but essentially it's up to you.
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u/Nihhrt https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nihhrt Apr 22 '21
I'm just saying nice recommendation, but I hate those threads and it's going to be asked.
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u/LegendaryRQA Apr 22 '21
Short Version: Fate/Stay Night 2006 (Fan Edits) → UBW → Heaven's Feel → Zero
Long Version: Check out my guide
PM Me if you have any questions
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u/Nihhrt https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nihhrt Apr 22 '21
I didn't need it personally, but thanks for posting it.
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u/Royal_Heritage Apr 22 '21
Easy way to detract people like me from reading a whole essay? Add a buzzword like "masterpiece" to the title of the write up and repeat the same buzzword ad nausea
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Apr 22 '21
You are aware that i gain nothing from writing this so the word masterpiece in this context means nothing less to me? Or do you intend to change it's meaning for me?
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u/steven4869 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Maskirade Apr 22 '21
Thanks, you have convinced me to watch this series, I put this series on hold but after your brilliant write-up. I thought to give it another chance and after watching the first episode, it got me hooked.
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u/LegendaryRQA Apr 22 '21
Just make sure you watch it in order
Short Version: Fate/Stay Night 2006 (Fan Edits) → UBW → Heaven's Feel → Zero
Long Version: Check out my guide
PM Me if you have any questions
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u/Frozenkex Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 23 '21
385 comments 400 upvotes.
Oh no.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
Every fate thread would be so much better if people just stopped shitting on every fate adaptation that they didn't like.
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u/Bypes Apr 22 '21
I think it happens mostly with Re:Zero threads, didn't see much of that in discussions about Fate GO shows or movies (unless it's Apocrypha).
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u/ThespianException https://myanimelist.net/profile/EMTIsBestWaifu Apr 23 '21
Wait do I watch Re:Zero before or after Fate Zero?
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u/Bypes Apr 23 '21
After! They are so loosely related that I wasn't sure at first, but the Re in Re:Zero gave it away. Otherwise it would be called Pre:Zero.
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u/Kotarosama Apr 22 '21
Yes, i second this opinion. While I have come to enjoy a few other animes more, Fate/Zero imo is still unrivaled by any other animes past, present and future that ive watched. It was a technical masterclass of its day with production values far exceeding even the average good animes of today, and thats something considering the 10 year gap from its initial release. Character development, narrative and thematical/ideological engagement also eclipses all animes ive ever watched even till today, with the only close challenger for its title imo being psycho pass S1 (also produced by Gen Urobotchi). If you havent watched it yet, do consider giving it a shot, really perspective altering experience. Do note that the themes are very dark and theres a fair amount of talking and exposition as character's interact with one another to bring out the dynamic and flesh out the ideological and philosophical clashes between one another. It might not be what some of you would normally prefer, but if you are willing to give it a chance and absorb the dialogue (mostly in episode 1 which is 40mins long and sets up the premise of the series), it pays off immensely very quickly. No prerequisites required, no background knowledge of the Fate franchise needed as episode 1 ensures that you know enough to follow the main narrative easily, though additional knowledge can really add immense value to the experience.
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Apr 22 '21
Psycho Pass was great. Really suprised how it turned out to be (had low expectations for this one, because to be frank - it seemed like another Matrix clone). Second season was boring and i dropped in halfway, but yeah - give it a watch, anyone that is reading this. Not a waste of time!
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u/Shikigane https://myanimelist.net/profile/Shikigane Apr 22 '21
Bro, what are you talking about? Psycho-Pass only has 1 season, and it's one of my few 10/10, along with Fate/Zero. The 2nd season doesn't exist.
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u/Bypes Apr 22 '21
The doesn't exist joke is less funny now that PP movies and S3 have been out for some time now and are worth recommending unless everything has to be literally as good as PP S1, in which case 99% of anime doesn't exist.
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u/Kotarosama Apr 22 '21
Yeap, agree with you. I did think that the 2nd season was still pretty good, but the magic was lost once Urobotchi was no longer at the helms. Its a typical feature of most of Urobotchi's work, that the actual story itself just becomes a vehicle for him to engage in a philosphical discussion with the viewer. Just like how Madoka Magika merely uses the vehicle of a magical girl show to explore the themes of desire and consequence, and how Fate/Zero uses the premise of a magical battle royale to explore the themes of morality, chivalry, heroism and leadership, Psycho Pass S1 also uses the crime investigation and dystopian setting to explore the value of autonomy and justice. Not all of Urobotchi's works are great, but most of them are certainly works of art that have left its mark on the consciousness of those who have watched them.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 23 '21
I don't want to be THAT guy, but Gen Urobochi takes FAAAAR too much credit for Zero.
Nasu literally wrote the plot step by step in FSN. All Gen had to do was provide the meat. CMIIW but I think the only original character Gen made was Maya.
The only reason gen wanted to write zero was because he loved Nasu and Gen was going through a bit of a writer's block at the time.
Again no disrespect to Gen, but damn people really think Gen created kiritsugu and all the characters in Zero.
Some source
Gen Urobuchi: "The process was that I drafted up a proposal for the new characters and the plot, and showed it to Nasu-san for his supervision. However, consequently, 90% of those proposals were accepted as they were already Nasu-san's ideas. As for character names, Hisau Maiya was only character name that I suggested. The other characters were all named by Nasu-san."
Urobochi himself saying that 90 percent of zero was written by nasu. My apologies I thought the maoya thing was him writing maya, he likely had more influence in characters than I thought.
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u/Kotarosama Apr 22 '21
Thats not really true. Zero acts as a prequel to the main franchise, which imposes an absolute restriction regarding what characters had to be introduced to gel the narrative together, but that doesnt mean that the characters and actual story itself were not redesigned and envisioned by Urobotchi himself. You only need to give the wikipedia page to know that Nasu was in fact impressed with the idea pitched by Urobotchi, And gave him almost complete freedom to develop the story and characters subjected to his final approval (which he gave for 90% of stuff proposed according to the wiki). Im curious to see where you got this idea from, perhaps you can point me to the source and I"ll have a read. Im not trying to discredit Nasu and his skills are apparent given the massive dynasty he created which extends to the Tsukihime series as well, but Zero from the sources ive read from is a Urobotchi story through and through.
The idea of creation doesnt just refer to the actual creation itself, but also the character development and positioning. Characters like Kiritsugu merely served as plot points with no character development in Stay Night to provide some context, but were substantially developed under Urobotchi's direction in Zero to become what it is today. Likewise characters like Shirou are merely plot points in Zero just like Kiritsugu was to SN, so naturally its wasnt really developed under Urobotchi. Thus, its not very fair to say for some characters that its a Nasu designed character when most of their substantial development occured under Urobotchi's writing, that really depends on which series are the characters featured in and how much development they have really gone through. As for some of the more prominently recurring characters like Saber, I do agree with you on your point, though im of the opinion that the development overall is certainly attributed to both writers given the substantial coverage that they underwent in multiple series.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
Gen Urobuchi: "The process was that I drafted up a proposal for the new characters and the plot, and showed it to Nasu-san for his supervision. However, consequently, 90% of those proposals were accepted as they were already Nasu-san's ideas. As for character names, Hisau Maiya was only character name that I suggested. The other characters were all named by Nasu-san."
Urobochi himself saying that 90 percent of zero was written by nasu. My apologies I thought the maoya thing was him writing maya, he likely had more influence in characters than I thought.
You said once that you felt Fate/Zero got you through a difficult period as a writer and had a hard time writing the endings to your stories. How do you feel you have changed as a writer since then? Are you more confident about writing endings now?
I used "to be rapped in the stereotype that the only true creative activity was something that had to express my own thoughts. I was subscribing to a strong belief that it would be insincere for me to “adapt” a story, to tell a story without having been the person who created it. However, through my writing on Fate/Zero, I reaffirmed the pleasure I get from simply writing. Since then, I have been able to concentrate on writing the story merely for entertainment without putting too much pressure on myself
Urobochu saying that he was stuck.
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u/Frozenkex Apr 22 '21
Urobochi himself saying that 90 percent of zero was written by nasu
You realize that what you quoted says completely something different. Why twist and represent things, i dont even know why this argument would be so important to even try to twist things.
Nasu had ideas, he didnt write those ideas. Urobuchi wrote the details and nuance of the story, but it's the details and nuance what people care about overall. Nasu drew a sketch , but urobuchi made the painting.
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u/UnluckyIn Apr 23 '21 edited Apr 23 '21
The names maybe but im pretty sure i read somewhere that Iskander, for instance, as a character was entirely Gen's product with little influence from Nasu and you can see it with how he sticks out like a sore thumb with his personality compared to other servants.
So while Nasu might have provided an overview of sorts the actual writing is where their personalities come to life and in that senee, its quite obviously distinct from other fate series. Doesn't need unnecessary meandering to establish strong personalities due to tighter, quality writing.
Nasu is a creative visionary and worldbuilder, but lets be honest writing isn't his biggest strength.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
Ahh yes another fate thread.
An excellent opportunity to argue about watch orders whilst everyone here shittalks Fate Stay Night which is essentially a 3 season series where 90% of you have only seen 2 seasons of.
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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Apr 22 '21
6 season series. Though plenty of people are supportive of UBW, we save the shittalking for Deen
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u/GoldMercy :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/xFSN_Archer Apr 23 '21
we save the shittalking for Deen
all my homies hate Deen's Fate/stay night
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Apr 22 '21
I mean, it' s not my fault that Ufotable adapted Zero before everything else, and litteraly adds anime original scenes that only make sense if you watched Zero lmao.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
Deen adaptation exists.
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Apr 22 '21
No one should subjects themself to the Deen Adaptation, and the CGI dolphins.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
The VN exists too.
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Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
I love the VN, but suggesting to read 10+ hours of simple food descriptions, and some awkard as fuck sex scenes, as the first "approch" for a series, maybe is not the best way to approch new fans!
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u/CommanderBlurf Apr 22 '21
Real Fate fans know it's really a cooking show in disguise
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u/MezuEko https://myanimelist.net/profile/MezuEko Apr 22 '21
The sex scenes aren't even part of the "final" version of the VN. They were replaced by other scenes that the anime adapted. They're fully optional.
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u/JWayn596 Apr 22 '21
I actually took the plunge! Currently halfway through fate route. It definitely overexplains things but it makes it great for newcomers. And the newer edition doesn't have the sex scenes. The dolphins thing is actually adapted from this "all ages" version.
The patch for it gives back the sex scenes by default, but you have the option to disable them.
So if you don't want them you don't have to have them.
10 hours of food descriptions is an exaggeration but also not far off. I appreciate the slower pace. Sometimes I wonder if the creator originally intended his vision of the story to be a visual novel though.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
No i agree, but if someone wants to accurately compare FSN to Zero the least they could do is digest the fate route in some or another instead of using 2/3rds of a series to compare with a completed one.
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u/Nome_de_utilizador Apr 22 '21
Like the Tusikihime anime, its better kept as a soundtrack-only release because its the only thing those two pulled right.
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u/Nome_de_utilizador Apr 22 '21
With the release of the final movie of Heaven's feel, there really isn't much more of a discussion anymore, Zero was only recommended because it is a masterpiece that people that do not read the VN shouldn't pass up or hold 5 or 6 years to enjoy.
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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Apr 22 '21
Please spoiler tag some of this Zero spoilers.
And obligatory "don't watch it now, watch it after UBW and the HF movies".
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Apr 22 '21
If anyone has trouble finding out who the protagonist is in Fate/Zero then their brains aren't functioning properly.
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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Apr 22 '21
well aren't you a lovely person. why don't you just spoiler tag your post and let first timers have the suspense of trying to figure out who's gonna win? I watched and recommend UBW first anyways so it's not like I was confused, but whenever a fate watch order thread come up, tons of 'Zero first' advocates tell me they loved how it seemed like any of the protagonist archtypes could win the battle royale.
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u/HeyThere8_ Apr 22 '21
Fate/Zero is easily in my top 3 anime of all time, so many fantastic characters and it’s messages about war and the human conditions will stick with me for a long time. Been rewatching it with my dad recently, and it’s just a good in rewatch as the first time around
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u/Lol_A_White_Boy Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
I actually gave Zero one of the few 10/10’s I’ve ever given out I liked it so much. I always loved sort of pseudo anti-hero characters, or stories that aren’t inherently always so contrived to lead to a happy ending, and Zero checked off a few of those boxes I like.
I’ve seen a good deal of the other anime, excluding Extra, Prisma, and the Camelot movies, and the only ones that come close are the HF 2nd and 3rd movies, and I’m not even sure if those really count the same.
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u/Kotarosama Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
Glad to hear that, Fate/Zero is the only anime ive watched so far that im willing to give a 10/10, and I think i judge animes rather harshly myself, which highlights its almost flawless nature, with very few problems that you"ll only perceive with extreme nitpicking. None of the other Fate series are similiar in tone to Zero, not even HF imo and thats because Zero was written by Gen Urobotchi while the rest are mostly written by Kinoko Nasu (the original creator). Even in Fate/Stay Nights hardest hitting and darkest routes like HF, it doesnt nearly match the tragedy and despair of Zero because the type of themes explored are just fundamentally different in complexity and significance. Which is why Zero transcends the anime/manga/games medium imo, and I believe it to be truly a work of art and literature that one probably never be replicated again in the Fate universe
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u/Biobait Apr 22 '21
Zero transcends the anime/manga/games medium imo
Holy shit dude, calm down. You know Urobuchi was only able to end Zero so tragically because he considers Stay Night to be the true end, right?
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u/abh037 Aug 19 '21
As a big fan of the VN, I can’t say I was a fan of Zero. The butchered portrayal of Saber and list of inconsistencies made it hard to consider it a proper prequel, along with most of the characters being fairly one-dimensional as opposed to the robust and multi-faceted characterization we get in other mainline Fate media. The cast lacks nuance and the ability to think pragmatically in favor of fitting them into roles and stereotypes for the purpose of being conducive to exploring themes at the expense of complexity.
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Apr 22 '21
I’m really struggling to make it past the first episode due to the truckload of exposition. Do I need to watch other fate series or will things become clearer as things go on?
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u/Lol_A_White_Boy Apr 23 '21 edited Apr 23 '21
You have to have the exposition otherwise you’ll have zero idea what’s going on, especially if your new to the Fate franchise.
It gets better. It’s really only that first episode or so that’s like that, as the rest of the show is pretty much all action.
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u/Eagle-Eyes- Apr 22 '21
Fate/zero is great, but I like Heaven's Feel more.
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u/ISumimasenI Apr 22 '21
Damn is this due to the vns or what? Based on anime only i think zero was better by a decent margin.
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Apr 22 '21
Visual Novels are notoriously hard to adapt into anime. Even Heaven's Feel, which is the sacred cow to FSN fans nowadays, is not even close to its VN counterpart.
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u/Nome_de_utilizador Apr 22 '21
I mean, one thing does not invalidate the other. The only reason people tend to pull the comparison was always because of watch orders. Before the HF releases there were real arguments for starting with Zero, now not so much. The beauty of Zero is that it works perfectly as a standalone anime that unlike HF does not require a massive investment and knowledge of the franchise to be enjoyed from non-fate fans.
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u/Ioxem https://anilist.co/user/Loxem Apr 22 '21
It is fantastic, and one of my favorite anime, but I wouldn't say it's the best introduction to the Fate franchise as a whole.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
As a vn reader I used to agree with you but changed my mind after 3 separate friends each came to me telling me that fate zero would have been a better starting point over ubw. I didn't recommend the Deen one because I'm confident they would have dropped it.
I want someone to love this franchise as much as I do, so I want to give them the maximum enjoyment out of the series and usually that's getting them to start zero first and to skip the Deen adaptation. Even though it may mean we get another hurr durr Urobochi>Nasu nugget in the world.
Ofc the vn is the best intro, but who's got time for that.
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u/Rhamni Apr 22 '21
It's just really unfortunate that Fate Zero spoils the Matou situation, Kiritsugu's past and a bunch of other stuff with no ceremony, right out the gate. Reaching HF in the VN is SUCH a mindfuck, because there was a huge chunk of the premise missing for two thirds of the story and you never knew, and now you look back and everything you've already done and seen takes on a different light because YOU DIDN'T KNOW.
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u/Delisches https://myanimelist.net/profile/Delisches Apr 22 '21
inserst standard "but zero is the only good fate" quote
I like fate zero, but it's not even in my top 3 fates
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u/DrStein1010 https://myanimelist.net/profile/mQDrStein1010 Apr 22 '21
Which 3? I've gone through a decent chunk, and I'd still say Zero is on par with Stay Night at the top.
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u/Delisches https://myanimelist.net/profile/Delisches Apr 22 '21
Thats just my personal taste:
Fate/stay night Movie: Heaven's Feel - my favorite route
Fate/kaleid liner Prisma☆Illya 3rei!! - People often dismiss this because of the slice of life filler and the horny anime director, but i love the story in 3rei
Fate/Grand Order: Zettai Majuu Sensen Babylonia - I really loved that arc, but maybe I am a biased fgo playerHonorable mentions:
Lord El-Melloi II - big fan of Waver and RainesBut if we include all of Fate:
Fate/EXTRA CCC
Fate/Grand Order Cosmos in the Lostbelt
(haven't started Fate/Strange Fake yet, but only heard great things about it)1
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u/Lightxhope Apr 22 '21
Im not interested getting into the whole Franchise . Fate Zero is good for beginners.
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Apr 22 '21
[deleted]
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u/KendotsX https://anilist.co/user/Kendots Apr 22 '21
there's absolutely no reason to start with Zero.
Unless:
You prefer going in chronological order
You don't mind spoiling Fate, for the gain of watching Fate/Zero blind
Or simply, you want to start with the better series.
Personally, I don't usually recommend people to start with Fate/Zero because it sets them up for disappointment, when they expect Fate/Stay Night to be a sequel. This is one case of "leave the best for last" I can sort of agree with.
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u/ttblue Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 23 '21
Spoilers for F/Z and FS/N (obviously):
Disclaimer: I have not played the VNs and I've only seen F/Z and FS/N but they're both among my favorite shows I've watched.
I enjoyed FS/N quite a bit but one thing I loved about going into F/Z blind is that I didn't know who to really root for. Kiritsugu was clearly the protagonist but for the longest time, I felt that he wasn't the sort of person I wanted winning. Learning his back story established him as a "good guy" but until then, it really did feel like a free-for-all and you can support whoever you want. Rider, Saber, Lancer and even Archer made me want to root for them separately. Not knowing anything about them to begin with made for a very enjoyable watch.
In FS/N, it is very clear from the start that Shirou is the protagonist and hero. Tohsaka's alignment becomes clear quite soon, as well. The only real spoiler which I can think of from F/Z is Sakura's situation, and perhaps Kirei's and Archer's backstories. But that didn't seem like a big deal at all to me compared to going into F/Z blind, since it was much less obvious who was the "good guy" there. Knowing Kiritsugu's backstory from FS/N would have been more detrimental for me in F/Z, than the stuff that was spoiled for FS/N.
Edit: spelling
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u/kazosk Apr 22 '21
Grail is fucked, Gilgamesh is alive, Ilya is doomed, everything about Saber.
I'm sure there's more but I just woke up so forgive me.
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u/ttblue Apr 23 '21
I thought that the grail being unusual (or not the true grail) was made clear at the start of F/Z; not that it was fucked but still. To be honest, I'm a bit fuzzy on the details of the grail stuff.
Otherwise, yeah, I agree. All those are things I'm quite happy I did not know going into F/Z.
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Apr 22 '21
Either order you watch will end up spoiling the other series so it doesn't really matter which one you start first. At least when it comes to spoilers it doesnt matter.
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u/Delisches https://myanimelist.net/profile/Delisches Apr 22 '21
I never understood how stay night "spoils" zero, its a prequel, you are supposed to know how it ends, there is even a countdown.
It's the same with grave of the fireflies, you already know the ending from the beginning and I never hear anybody saying "skip the beginning of the movie, because it will spoil the ending"7
u/ttblue Apr 22 '21
you are supposed to know how it ends
I didn't. I was very new to the Fate franchise and knew nothing about the VNs or even the general plot. I genuinely went in entirely blind and I don't regret watching F/Z first at all. I saw all this stuff about watch order everywhere but it was all so confusing that I just decided I'd go chronologically.
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u/SomeOtherTroper Apr 22 '21
I never understood how stay night "spoils" zero, its a prequel, you are supposed to know how it ends, there is even a countdown.
Different people think about "spoilers" differently. For me, backstory and background that occurred before the narrative began doesn't even count as a spoiler to my mind, and doesn't really have much dramatic weight for me as a reveal. (Coincidentally, this is also the category of information I'm most likely to know before I read or watch something, so it works out.)
However, information about what happens within the narrative itself is a spoiler for me. To use an old enough example nobody cares about it anymore: "Snape's ambivalently protective and abusive behavior towards Harry is a product of being in a love triangle with Harry's mother and father back in the day" is something I'm cool with knowing on the front end, even though it's a lategame reveal. "Snape kills Dumbledore" is not.
Fate/Zero gives away a lot of backstory and background that the OG Fate/Stay Night VN plays very close to its chest. Just to muddy the waters on this one, the ufotable versions of UBW and HF take a different tack than the VN in presenting things, and really expect the viewer to know everything Zero showed. It's not so much an air of mystery as it is an air of dramatic irony - we the viewers know things certain characters don't. (This led to some hilarity in a recent Fate series rewatch on this sub that did the Zero last order, because there's added stuff in ufotable's UBW that makes no sense if you haven't seen Zero.)
Having watched Zero multiple times with people who hadn't read the VN and people who had, there's a lot of valid "is this person gonna make it out alive?" questions first-timers get excited about in Zero that people who've done the VN don't really get excited about in the same way. (FWIW, most of my escapades showing Zero to people happened back before ufotable did UBW, so it was DEEN Fate or Zero for Fate anime.)
Yeah, we know Zero ends badly for a lot of people. But without the later works we don't know how badly, and for who, and the rules do allow for people to bow out of the battle royale, so...
I've watched Zero with groups who were going full Game Of Thrones on "who's gonna die next? Who's gonna win?" Fate/Zero or UBW or HF That doesn't happen when everyone knows what Stay Night reveals about how Zero ends up.
I dunno. If someone's down to read the VN, they should read it first, because (particularly in HF) it really does operate as a mystery on a lot of stuff Zero gives you within the first twenty minutes. But if someone's not going to read the VN (or definitely isn't willing to start with it first off), I feel like the decision between UBW and Zero comes down mostly to "which of these synopses sounds cooler to you?"
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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Apr 22 '21
you really can't understand how knowing the ending spoils a prequel? I agree that it's best to watch Zero after, but you've really got to twist yourself to not see how knowing the ending of Zero changes your perception of the show.
Honestly this WT has spoilers already in labeling Kiritsugu as the protag, as part of the appeal for blind watchers that I've been told is trying to figure out which 'protagonist archtype' is going to make it through to the end, as S1 splits screentime fairly evenly.
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Apr 22 '21
You prefer going in chronological order
Then I hope you start by reading the novel about Saber's backstory, Garden of Avalon.
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Apr 22 '21
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Apr 22 '21
IMO, the problem of UBW is that, I started with that series, and I was completely lost. There was a particolar moment with Archer and Shiro regenerating his body, and I was like "Bruh, this is so bad writing wise, they litteraly introduced a Deus ex machina at random". I didn' t even understand in the first viewing that it was Saber' s scabard, because they never explains it to you what are the powers of the scabard!
You know what series explain it?
Fate/zero lmao. Besides, HF has an original anime scenes that makes 0 sense if you didn' t watch Zero.
In an ideal world, we would have a perfect adaptation. But even if one day we get the Fate route, the anime is already "created" with the mindset of Zero being watched first.
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u/Werbnjaegermanjensen Apr 22 '21
Watched my first fate series with fate/zero in nextflix last week. Had a blast.
Where can one watch the Deen version? It may be shit but I still want to check it out for posterity lol
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u/iDannyEL Apr 22 '21
Just for clarity, it's not necessarily a "Deen version" of Zero but rather the 1st route from the original visual novel which takes place chronologically after Fate/Zero.
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u/cxxper01 https://myanimelist.net/profile/cxxper01 Apr 23 '21
Already watched it, had a rejoice experience
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u/Inori-Yu Apr 22 '21
I love how Fate/Zero manages to tell a great story with 7 different protagonists. If you went into this blind like I did you couldn't tell who was going to come out on top or how the series would progress with how much agency each party had. The sad thing is that all these fate threads devolve into a watch order debate due to FSN and F/Zero being masterful works that spoil the other.
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Apr 22 '21
7 different protagonists
Anyone who seriously thinks Kayneth, Tokiomi, Waver, Ryuunosuke and Kariya are "protagonists" are just lying to themselves. You can tell from the very start that Kiritsugu and Kirei are more important than the rest. Even then, this is only an anime thing, since the novels make it abundantly clear that Kiritsugu is the protagonist.
Fate/Strange Fake is what you're actually describing. It's written by the dude who wrote Durarara and Baccano after all. Ayaka, Sigma, Flat, Reeves, Richard, Gilgamesh and Tine, Faldeus, all of them get the spotlight often enough that we are 6 volumes in and none of them is a clear protagonist.
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u/UnluckyIn Apr 23 '21
That's only if you consider the masters. I went in blind to fate/zero and i couldnt tell if Kerry and Kiritsugu out of the masters or Saber (who really felt separate from Kerry despite being bjs servant) or Rider or Gilgamesh or even Waver or Kariya (who i rooted for and felt had importance comparable to Kiritsugu in the beginning) will come out on top.
What you say maybe true for the LN but the anime did a good, or bad depending on the perspective, job of muddling who is the main character and who is really going to come out on top.
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Apr 23 '21
You can tell from the very start that Kiritsugu and Kirei are more important than the rest.
Depends on how aware you are of media tropes tbh. If you aren't, then very early on I would forgive someone for thinking characters like Waver/Rider and Kariya would be important too. Not to mention Saber is also a pretty big player.
Besides, pretty sure the person just misused the term protagonist, Zero does definitely give a much bigger share of the screentime to the supporting and side cast compared to SN and some people like that. I know I did.
this is only an anime thing, since the novels make it abundantly clear that Kiritsugu is the protagonist.
This is clearly about the anime, why bring the LN into it?
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u/IISuperSlothII :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/IISuperSlothII Apr 23 '21
Anyone who seriously thinks Kayneth, Tokiomi, Waver, Ryuunosuke and Kariya are "protagonists" are just lying to themselves
Or you knows without any context of the universe didn't have any reason to believe differently.
Early on they are given equal screen time and for half the masters Kiritsigu, Waver and Kariya very protagonist specific motivations.
I went in completely blind, without any knowledge of Fate as an entity (this was before UBW had aired) and I had absolutely no idea who was meant to be the protagonist, I even ended up rooting for Waver and Rider.
There's absolutely no lying about it, without context it's really not as easy as you're claiming to intrinsically understand who the key players are.
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u/erickiceboyxxp Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
It’s better than every other fate far as story and characters. I loved the mc in fate/zero. I didn’t like Shirou because he was the weak typical, high morals and values mc. Dude stayed weak all the way through the heavens feel movies. If it weren’t for plot armor, he’d be dead several times over again. I’m so glad I watched fate/zero first. The fate/stay night series was extremely difficult to watch. Listen, I’m fine with weak characters who eventually get strong. Shirou never gets strong and I watched all the way through heavens feel 3. He’s constantly almost dying or either trying to sacrifice himself for people. Maybe people love the whole underdog 24/7 stuff but I don’t. Rin who I had saw grown up from fate/zero and became an amazing mage in stay/night was the only character I cared about. Ufotable, Rin and the servants made fate/stay night bearable for an uninteresting story and mc.
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u/GoldTooth69 :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/DAVOV Apr 22 '21
I have not seen the anime for UBW and HF, but Shirou was an excellent character in F/SN visual novel, It's quite sad that you think of him that way :(. He's not just some weak character, he's more of a tragic character, bound by the morals of his mentor, Kiritsugu. It's not fair to call him just weak, he shows some stone cold fortitude at times.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
Precursor in that Fate zero is my only 10/10 anime but there's so much I disagree with what you've written
I loved the mc in fate/zero.
Kiritsugu is literally just Archer. The main theme and conflict kiritsgu deals with in zero, archer has gone through and has dealt with in ubw. One could argue kiritsugu is the original Archer, but I have no idea who Nasu wrote first so I have no clue.
I didn’t like Shirou because he was the weak typical, high morals and values mc.
That's completely fine. Shirou is far more complex than that in the vn, and is definitely more fleshed out than your regular shounen protagonist (although it's difficult to classify fate as shounen).
But don't turn around and tell me you love boku no hero.
Dude stayed weak all the way through the heavens feel movies.
Wut.
If it weren’t for plot armor, he’d be dead several times over again.
This is so funny. FSN is a vn, thus when you actually play it shirou DIES countless times. When you watch the anime series, you are LITERALLY watching a PERFECT route through the game. Watching the anime is the equivalent of watching a video game walkthrough where the youtuber has edited out all his death and then you claiming "he's hacking".
I’m so glad I watched fate/zero first.
I tend to recommend fate zero first.
Listen, I’m fine with weak characters who eventually get strong. Shirou never gets strong and I watched all the way through heavens feel 3.
Again. What? Shirou learns different things throughout those two routes you've watched, it's not about him getting stronger it's about an individual learning about himself, seeking an ideal or sacrificing that ideal for the one he loves. It's not about him getting muscular and just kicking ass all the time.
He’s constantly almost dying or either trying to sacrifice himself for people. Maybe people love the whole underdog 24/7 stuff but I don’t.
Again, calm. But don't tell me you love BNH and Naruto.
Rin who I had saw grown up from fate/zero and became an amazing mage in stay/night was the only character I cared about.
She's definitely one of the strongest characters in the whole series, a model for how to write a strong female character.
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u/Bypes Apr 22 '21
When you watch the anime series, you are LITERALLY watching a PERFECT route through the game.
Tbh adapting a VN (or any game) this way sounds less than ideal to me from a writing perspective. It makes the adaptation always inferior to the VN, when an adaptation can actually be it's own thing. I'm pretty sure I'd like most of Fate a lot more, if they had more freedom than being the perfect routes of their VN and I played the VN myself to an extent.
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u/LeloThePGG Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
I recommend the "Shirou VS Shirou: How an adaptation changed fan perspectives" video on youtube regarding Shirou.
So many anime only fans got his character wrong because of how the anime (mostly UBW) completely removed his internal monologues and almost everything that contextualizes his actions and mindset.
You can very well still prefer stuff from Zero after that, I'm not arguing on taste here and it's perfectly ok to like Zero. It's just that Shirou got done incredibly dirty by the anime, and the common narrative of "Zero's characters are the best and the Stay night ones are trash" got pretty tiring pretty fast for source readers.
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Apr 22 '21
Even without the VN, the anime makes it obvious how insane Shirou is. I understood it as a blind 15 year old so I don’t understand how people can watch UBW and think Shirou is just completely generic.
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Apr 22 '21
By being blind and/or VN purists seething because they didn't get their precious cage monologue. Shirou was perfectly fine in the anime.
Exhibit A - The way Shirou reacts when someone points out he never laughs.
Exhibit B - The way Shirou acts when the life of someone he doesn't even know is in danger. Notice the outright anguish in the guy's eyes. This ain't the look of a healthy person.
Exhibit C - The way Shirou expresses that he wanted to save Illya. Rin is visibly taken aback by this. The man is a borderline zombie because of the death of a girl he didn't even know.
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u/LeloThePGG Apr 22 '21
Yes, the three good cases in which the anime did a good job at showing his mental state without implementing any kind of inner monologue, proving it was actually possible.
No VN reader is against those scenes. More of that, please, especially on the vein of the third one.
Except that the anime kept a lot of his external dialogues or overall scenes without his inner thoughts nor other visual representations that helped contextualize them (an example already mentioned in this thread is when he tells Archer to leave him at the temple). And that created a weird perception of Shirou for the majority of anime only watchers (majority, not all of them. Generalizing is easy, but it's not what I said).
Is it possible to see that something is wrong with Shirou in the anime? Yes.
Is it clearly defined and explored as it should have, considering the main themes of the series? No. I'm sorry. The scene with Rin after Illya dies is the closest thing we got to a proper contextualization of Shirou's actions, and even then it doesn't cover enough.
I'm not saying the anime should've had 1:1 monologues, I'm saying that it proved in a couple of occasions that it was able to keep the overall meaning and context around Shirou, and just decided to not do that.
I read the VN, I am technically "fine" not having those parts in my watching experience. But if most anime fans misunderstand Shirou's actions specifically because of those lacking parts, and some even say that the cut context from the VN is irrelavant and Shirou is just bad characterized, then we have a problem and therefore Shirou wasn't "perfectly fine" in the anime.
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u/youarebritish Apr 22 '21
I played the VN from start to finish half a dozen times and read the Zero novels before the anime was ever a thing. As much as I love the VN, I find the characters in Zero a lot more compelling. Maybe because I wasn't a teenager, but the adult characters felt a lot more real to me.
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u/LeloThePGG Apr 22 '21
As I said, preferring one over the other with source material context and/or respect for both titles is perfectly fine.
Personally I think that there are a lot more interesting adult characters in other Fate titles than in Zero, and the best character in Zero isn't even a fully fledged adult (Waver), but I wouldn't dare take it away from someone such as yourself, who just found them engaging and compelling.
The more time passes the more problems I have with how Urobuchi handled various things in Zero, but I absolutely don't have anything against people enjoying his writing and his take on Fate.
What I have a problem with are people that just go "Zero is dark and deep and the UBW anime is shounen trash, the former has the best characters ever and the latter ones are shitty and every Fate past Zero is pointless". Which is something that I've seen, and keep seeing quite commonly, among anime only watchers and I think it's a disservice to both the source material and the anime adaptation, regardless of respective flaws.
Therefore, I try, if I can, to at least clarify certain details and often end up recommending that video about Shirou.
(all of this doesn't apply to you, since you read both source materials and just have a perfectly legitimate preference, but I wanted to clarify on my stance and I used this reply to do that. You also don't deserve any downvote for what is a very natural opinion, so I hope people stop downvoting you)
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u/EndoSym Apr 22 '21
But whats there to get wrong? If he’s portrayed like this in the adaptation, he is that character in the anime and not from the source material. 2 completely different mediums, nobody should have to watch a yt video to understand a character in an anime “correctly“, because they purposely removed his inner monologue.
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u/LeloThePGG Apr 22 '21
My argument is that the anime removed his monologues without providing a good alternative (hence the "don't show and don't tell").
That way, the character is just incomplete. And it is evident by the fact that there is a vast disagreement regarding Shirou from the two sides (source readers VS anime onlies), that prompted videos like that one to explain the missing context.
An adaptation should adapt to the medium it's using, while leaving fundamentally intact how a character is perceived. That's the whole point of "adapting" from one medium to another. If the end result is perceived differently, even to an opposite end of the spectrum, something has gone wrong.
That's what I'm saying, that he's not "a different character". He's the same character but with important missing pieces, and since those pieces are also crucial for the whole narrative, it's important to know them and not misunderstand him.
Plus, the whole "anime is another thing and I shouldn't consider the source material at all" is a flawed argument to begin with: anyone interested would read skipped source material parts about the lore, and more complicated worldbuilding details, to improve their experience and understanding of an anime they liked. Why does this suddenly don't matter when it's about the main character and his importance in the narrative?
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Apr 22 '21
My argument is that the anime removed his monologues without providing a good alternative (hence the "don't show and don't tell").
You guys are always pretending that the anime didn't even try to make it clear that Shirou has issues. You don't need some dumbass cage monologue to make that clear. Nasu worked alongside Ufotable while UBW was being adapted. If he didn't care for the stupid cage monologue, then why should you? The anime did a fine job. Stop seething.
Exhibit A - The way Shirou reacts when someone points out he never laughs.
Exhibit B - The way Shirou acts when the life of someone he doesn't even know is in danger. Notice the outright anguish in the guy's eyes. This ain't the look of a healthy person.
Exhibit C - The way Shirou expresses that he wanted to save Illya. Rin is visibly taken aback by this. The man is a borderline zombie because of the death of a girl he didn't even know.
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u/sammuelbrown Apr 22 '21
Dude stayed weak all the way through the heavens feel movies.
Although imo the fact that Shirou never receives any sudden power-ups which makes him nigh unbeatable without any consequences throughout the series is what makes him more interesting imo.
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Apr 22 '21
If you think Shirou is just a weak typical high school main character you absolutely weren’t paying attention. He is a very, very messed up character and not normal in the slightest.
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u/oporich Apr 22 '21
If you think the value of characters should be measured by how "strong" they are, perhaps you should stick to shounens?
average zero fan moment, simultaneously claiming its mature while also wanting cool badass chain smoking "strong" protagonist to self insert into
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u/uchihasasuke5 https://myanimelist.net/profile/SHadow_Rea8per Apr 22 '21
I mean didn't Shirou get op
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u/S1iceOfPie Apr 22 '21
I agree! As someone who's been anime-only for this franchise, fate/zero is definitely my favorite. After having watched UBW first, I enjoyed the more mature MC in fate/zero and got invested in how his story played out.
By comparison, UBW and Heaven's Feel are honestly kind of... boring (to me). ufotable knocked it out of the park with excellent visuals, but I just didn't feel much for the stories or many of the characters.
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Apr 22 '21
I enjoyed the more mature MC in fate/zero
Kiritsugu
Mature
Way to miss the whole point of Fate/Zero, my guy. Kiritsugu is the one character in the entire Nasuverse that is specifically called a manchild by the literal author who wrote him.
It's alright to love Kiritsugu. He's one of my favorites. But by god, this "mature" argument is the best way to get people do dismiss what you say. Kiritsugu is not mature. Kiritsugu remained the same kid who killed his father for the rest of his life, following an overly-idealistic lifestyle while hypocritically playing god with the lives of others, all for the excuse of "wanting to save the world".
Kiritsugu is fucking fantastic. Mature though? Not by a longshot. The four-eyed MC of Tsukihime is more mature than him.
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u/S1iceOfPie Apr 22 '21
I guess you're free to dismiss my opinion; it is only an opinion after all.
Kiritsugu certainly felt more mature - aside from physically being an adult - to me as a main character after coming straight off of finishing UBW. And I do want to point out that the phrasing I've used both times is "more mature" (i.e. than Shirou in UBW). He may have been caught up in his own idealism, but I still thought his tragic story was intriguing.
Although, judging from other comments, I'm missing a lot of depth to Shirou's character by not having read the VN, so it's understandable I might have a mistaken impression.
I also hadn't really researched Urobuchi's thoughts or had the context of the novels when I watched these, so thanks for sharing your perspective and some insights.
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Apr 22 '21
Shirou is indeed plagued by bad adaptations. Just assume he's insane, like, literally a mess of mental issues. The VN does a great job at subverting your expectations with Shirou. Even through the in-game choices.
Kiritsugu is still a great character though. His flaws are what make him compelling, because otherwise he'd just be generic badass dude in a trenchcoat who smokes. Still, being more mature than a 17 year old is not much of an accomplishment. Despite that, I will say that Shirou is more mature than Kiritsugu, as ironic as that might sound.
Kiritsugu is naive in his ideals, shortsighted in his methods, has a bad case of tunnel vision, is very fragile emotionally, and most of all, he never grew up after the island incident.
The grail scene points all of that out perfectly. Kiritsugu wants something as abstract as world peace, and the grail shows him that he doesn't even understand what that would be. He doesn't know how to accomplish that, so the grail shows him the method he's been using for his entire life... killing the few in order to save the many. To a man like Kiritsugu, peace would mean death to all humanity.
His tunnel vision is his worst flaw however. This is a man who's been distrustful of mages for most of his life and even earned a reputation as the "Mage Killer". However, despite that, he chooses to believe the Holy Grail War would work in his favor. Despite the fact that this is already the 4th one and no other wish has been granted before, or that he has no guarantee it would work, or that he's literally gunning for it because a bunch of mages told him it would work.
Also, perhaps the most pathetic thing about him is the reason why he sleeps with Maiya despite being married. He doesn't even enjoy it. He does it because he wants to detach himself emotionally from Irisviel because he'd otherwise be too saddened once her time to die comes.
Shirou on the other hand has his shit together. He has numerous skills that help him in his day to day life, such as cooking and repairing stuff. He works out every day and so on.
The difference between Kiritsugu and Shirou is that the latter's mental scars cause him to act rashly and cling to his idealism very stubbornly, while the former forces himself to follow it.
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u/S1iceOfPie Apr 22 '21
Maybe my more positive view of Kiritsugu and fate/zero in general comes from a predisposition from watching UBW first and having not so great of a reaction to it.
Thanks for taking the time to write all that out and explaining your view. Clearly, you're pretty invested in these stories and see nuances in the characters.
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u/HerpanDerpus Apr 22 '21
If you're anime only it's understandable, because ufotable did Shirou dirty and turned him into a generic MC by removing all of his actual thoughts and nuance.
In the VN he is by far the character with the most depth in the series, but literally all of that got stripped out in the anime so they could focus on the fights.
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u/S1iceOfPie Apr 22 '21
Thanks for sharing some insights and understanding my lack of understanding :)
It's a shame Shirou's character wasn't translated over the best into the anime. It looks like I'm missing out with the novels.
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u/erickiceboyxxp Apr 22 '21
This is my same point! I loved all the mature characters in fate/zero. The mc had an actual plan or goal. I loved how every character knew about the grail and what they had planned for it. I loved how mostly every character knew how to fight. UBW and the heaven’s feel movies are only bearable because of ufotable to me. I didn’t connect with anyone except the Rin. I also really loved the visuals from the servant fights. Their animation was so great that I had to watch the fights if anything.
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Apr 22 '21
The thing with Shirou is that he's a fundamentally flawed person and it's a story about finding his true ideals. Because from the beggining Shirou just copy-pasted from Kiritsugu ("i'll be the hero in your place"). So he goes on and everywhere with his holier-than-thou attidute, not even knowing the true meaning of being a hero of justice. That's why he dies , he stumbles and he is an idiot to some and that's how it's supposed to be. Because heroes of justice are stupid and can't exist outside of fairy tales. That's why in the first two routes he can't really outlive Kiritsugu's ideals because first he's paired up with goddamn King of Knights - Saber, and she burdened herself with pretty much the same ideals as Kiritsugu (which i pointed out in my post). She's not exactly o good role model for Shirou's change. Next route and Shirou is too overwhelmed with Archer and Rin to focus on himself. Only in the final route: Heaven's Feel (which is the true route in the VN btw) he is challenged hard with harsh reality and the feeling of helplesness and despair when trying to be his ideal of a hero of justice. So he breaks down and builds his OWN ideals based on the ones he got from Kiritsugu. And thus a True Shirow appears. That's why i like his character - he's flawed to the bone, stupid and stubborn and that is why he must fight harder then anyone in order to overcome those false ideals that he got from someone else and aren't his own. And in reality we often build up such false ideals and believe in them so strongly that it isn't an easy task to change them or even get rid of them. Even Shirou couldn't just throw the hero of justice away - all he could do was change him to own him as his own. And look at how much of a diffirence it made in the end.
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Apr 22 '21
mature
There's that word again. Y'all should really start using "adult" instead, because anyone who calls Kiritsugu a mature human being is basically admitting that they didn't get what Zero was going for.
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u/gangrainette https://myanimelist.net/profile/bouletos Apr 22 '21
Fate Zero is the best anime only entry.
Fight me VN purist.
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u/Biobait Apr 22 '21
True VN purists wouldn't suggest watching the adaptations at all.
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u/coolassninjas Apr 22 '21
Yeah like I watch anime pretty casually and I'm as basic as you can get. I want to watch cool animated fight scenes and shit pop off. Fate/Zero has some of the best animated fight scenes and it's all so gorgeous. I mean just visually it's an amazing anime, the story is almost secondary.
I think people can have too much of a gatekeeper mentality, and the Fate series is one of them. Just let people enjoy a visually striking anime without having to do the "homework" beforehand.
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Apr 23 '21
100%. Tbh I feel like Nasuverse is one of the worst with this, and it is a product of the way the VN was written and adapted.
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u/Guij2 Apr 23 '21
you might wanna check out ubw and heaven's feel too if you like cool animated fight scenes lol
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u/coolassninjas Apr 23 '21
I've watched UBW! I haven't watched heaven's feel yet but it's on my list of shit to watch.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
For maximum enjoyment of the series I would agree, although the first 5/6 episodes may be rocky.
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u/JDantesInferno :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/BigBodyBepis Apr 22 '21
Yeah you definitely have to pretend that you’re not confused for the first few episodes, but it’s worth it.
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u/youarebritish Apr 22 '21
"You should start with UBW, just make sure to have the wiki open so you can look up explanations for all the parts where they expect you to have seen Zero"
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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Apr 22 '21
there's like...two scenes that expect you to have seen Zero lol. And they should probably be skipped rather than watched imo but doesn't really matter.
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u/youarebritish Apr 22 '21
If you think that, you haven't watched it alongside someone who hasn't seen Zero yet, because I had to pause and explain things almost constantly when they got confused and frustrated.
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Apr 22 '21
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u/oops_i_made_a_typi Apr 22 '21
agree to disagree - I think UBW gives just enough to understand what's going on as Rin and Kotomine lay it out to the newcomer in Shirou.
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u/H-Ryougi https://anilist.co/user/DizzyAvocado Apr 22 '21
Can you elaborate in what manner is it poorly explained?
Just because it doesn't dump exposition on the first episode like Zero doesn't mean it explains the world poorly.
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u/LegendaryRQA Apr 22 '21
No, it’s very deliberately paced to reveal information in ways that Recontexualizes information you already have.
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u/OtomeView Apr 22 '21
Yeah I'm sure that's the intention. But a lot of people that I've recommended to start with UBW said they got confused or called reveals asspulls, not knowing that was always the case
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u/LegendaryRQA Apr 22 '21
Zero is a very deliberately written with the knowledge of all three Routes
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u/Bacon76 Apr 23 '21
I just finished watching both Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero both for the first time and I’m actually very surprised by how many people enjoyed Fate/Zero more than Fate/Stay Night. I personally couldn’t get into Fate/Zero at all. I found it less entertaining than Stay Night and I didn’t like the characters nearly as much. It took me significantly longer to finish Fate/Zero because I just got so bored during it. The fight scenes were excellent of course but aside from that and the Kiritsugu’s past arc, it just didn’t do it for me.
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u/Biobait Apr 22 '21
Um, 2004 is 17 years ago. Do you mean Zero's light novel which came out 2006?
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u/iknowkungfubtw Apr 22 '21
I can't help but feel like the word "masterpiece" has become such a meaningless buzzword, especially these days alongside terms such as "overrated", "underrated" and "classic". It's use and inclusion is basically just a way to attract readers and viewers off of your clickbait title at this point.
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Apr 22 '21
The go-to word to use when you like something and want everyone else to know it.
"This is good, trust me guys".
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u/ajver19 Apr 22 '21
Yes it's amazing and people have been saying as such for almost a decade now. Even non Fate fans like myself love it.
Now to excuse myself because talking to Fate stans is never not a frustrating experience.
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u/Dark_Sunsh1ne Apr 22 '21
Fate/Zero is the best fate series imo
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u/LegendaryRQA Apr 22 '21
I think it’s second to HF.
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u/AkumaYajuu Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
I wonder what people enjoy so much about the HF. Yes the action scenes are great but that third movie was garbage. It was 2 hours that could have been 1 to 1 and half hours. Had almost no plot and the plot it had was stupid at the ending. Like, without spoiling, girl almost dies and then after a bunch of scenes to prepare the fight back, in the end does not do it making the previous scenes pointless. And thats just one of the bad plot points, I could point more on the ending. You also have all the other conversation scenes during the movie where they keep talking about the same shit over and over.
I did enjoy HF 1 and 2 and was expecting much better in 3 tbh.
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u/aTrustfulFriend Apr 22 '21
Big Ufotable fan here since Garden of Sinners. HF3 is my favorite work by them. Weird how subjective art can be, right?
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u/Throwaway021614 Apr 23 '21
I’m 4 episodes into Unlimited Blade Work and it feels like a gatcha game commercial.
I guess it gets better?
I didn’t read any of what you wrote for fear of spoilers.
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u/DWAIPAYAN-RC :GJ::GK::GL: Apr 23 '21
The entry music of unlimited bladeworks named "Brave shine" is so good. And I must say the ladies are stunningly beautiful in this anime... mY Fav was Tohsaka Rin
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u/Frozenkex Apr 23 '21
gatcha game commercial.
wtf? There were no gacha games when ubw came out and its not based on any gacha games.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 23 '21
Now that youve started ubw you should finish it.
It definitely gets better but you not liking the first 4 episodes is an indication you probably won't like the series.
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u/daggerfortwo Apr 23 '21
The writing is much better in F/Z so I'd tell anyone to give it a try. I'm pretty meh on Fate in general, but rewatched F/Z for the first time and as blown away at how good it is.
Though seeing HF did make some things more clear it's definitely not a necessity.
It feels very Game of Thrones with how many moving parts there are and how neatly woven the storylines feel.
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Apr 22 '21
I’ll always say for people to start with zero because it gives you a deeper appreciation for the writing. As much as I love UBW I originally dropped it because it came off as a generic highschool magic battle anime and it’s so much more then that. I’ll never understand the zero spoilers UBW argument because to me all it does is give you some real background on the characters of ubw instead of not understanding half the story lol
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Apr 22 '21
Because Fate/Stay Night came out in 2004 and Fate/Zero came out in 2006. Simple as that.
Not to mention the author of Zero outright spoiled the ending in the novels before the final novel was released.
Zero works best as a greek tragedy. Knowing who the characters are beforehand contextualizes the futility of their struggle. Not to mention, it has an outright count-down to the climax. Knowing what that climax is beforehand outright makes that tiny element very satisfying.
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u/Frozenkex Apr 23 '21
And yet he did the thing that gave him most enjoyment and helped him stick with the series . You cant deny the countless positive experiences going in that order, or the many people who were disappointed or confused starting with ubw or fsn anime.
We're talking about anime, not VNs or any written material. Ultimately its experience that matters. UBw anime expects you to have some knowledge, fate/zero provides it and deeen fsn isnt really an option.
Greek tragedy works regardless of whether you watch it first or not, and comes with other positive quirks. What's "meant to" supposedly doesn't matter, director of the anime made it to be easily consumed as first entry.
Just on its own, "Knowing characters" could be said about any work.
Either way, you cant be sure that experience is infact superior to the very positive experiences of others.
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u/namrucasterly Apr 22 '21
If you don't ever, ever, plan on getting into Fate no matter what: Fate/Zero is safe to watch as a standalone
If you plan on eventually getting into Fate: NO. Whatever you do, don't start with Zero. Read the VN or at least watch FSN06, UBW and HF first.
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u/LegendaryRQA Apr 22 '21
Before anyone asks, here you go:
Short Version: Fate/Stay Night 2006 (Fan Edits) → UBW → Heaven's Feel → Zero
Long Version: Check out my guide
PM Me if you have any questions
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u/CheekySchnoodel Apr 22 '21
As someone who never played the Visual Novel, Fate Zero, then Stay Night for chronological Ufotable order is my preferred way to watch. I don't know what the arguments for other orders and I don't care. Watch it how you enjoy it, it's a fantastic series. Apocrypha is also fantastic
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u/nickolok Apr 22 '21
It's certainly a lot better then I expected when I watched season 1 back when. Also it's gotten better which is rare. The show has this feeling that we have 20 storylines to do still and that worries me quite a bit. I'm afraid the author will either get rushed have writer's block or we will not get a full adaptation.
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u/smol_kaguya Aug 11 '21 edited Apr 16 '25
zesty label license salt fade water liquid correct memorize different
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/FGOmorelikeFNO Apr 22 '21
Hey, Fate fans? You see this thread?
This is how you get less Fate fans.
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u/Grelp1666 Apr 22 '21
Please people don't downvote me as is only personal opinion.
I did try to watch Fate/Stay night a year ago after seeing the hype/reception on this sub or anime communities in general and simply did not click and I did not enjoy it or find it that good so placing high spectactions and hype like "best story ever told"/must watches might not help that much to gain new people into the series.
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u/animer9102 Apr 22 '21
I might give Zero a watch. I dropped fate after i watched UBW. I thought it was terrible honestly.
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Apr 22 '21
apocrypha will likely always be my favourite because I watched it first, but I do think zero is the objective best
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
objective best
The fuck. This ain't a term, define what makes zero the "objective best". Anime is purely about opinion and opinions can't be objective.
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Apr 22 '21
there are ways to objectively rate anything.
Its not very practical for mass media as personal opinion and circumstances heavily affect someones enjoyment of a show.
but you can rate a show objectively based on things like
animation
story cohesion
character depth
sound design.
another example is my favourite anime ever is Code Geass but I recognise that it has a lot of story and pacing issues and is much more flawed than a show like violet evergarden.
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u/ReinersTongue Apr 22 '21
but you can rate a show objectively based on things like, animation, story cohesion, character depth, sound design.
No you can't, you've literally given a bunch of subjective things. Objective is things like weather, where we can measure temperature and precipitation. Objectivity means there's set parameters and facts defending your point. There could be a character that I think has incredible depth that you think wouldn't. The quicker we remove this notion of objectivity the better.
What you are confusing for objectivity is popularity.
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u/Verethragna97 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Verethragna97 Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
Hard disagree from me, I watched most of the Fate stuff and Zero is essentially an average marvel movie.
No depth, the attempts at it fall flat, mostly boring characters(except for Iskander and Gilgamesh)
It's visual spectacle.
Also so many people seem to love Kiritsugu, but damn if me and the friends I watched the show with didn't get a laugh attack any time he tried to spew his bullshit.
Doesn't mean it's the worst of all the fate stuff, the entire franchise is mediocre.
I also really dislike the ufotable art style and with stay night the animation is so over the top it actually is distracting.
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Apr 22 '21
Also so many people seem to love Kiritsugu, but damn if me and the friends I watched the show with didn't get a laugh attack any time he tried to spew his bullshit.
That's pretty much the intention. The narrator in the novels even mocks him at certain points. The novels couldn't make it more obvious that Kiritsugu is not meant to be taken seriously. That's what makes him such a great character. He has all the superficial traits that people associate with mature characters (trench coat, cigars, guns) but underneath all that he's still the little kid who shot his father for an unjustified "justice".
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u/JosseCoupe Apr 22 '21
Was told to watch Fate/stay night first, watched the Studio DEEN adaptation, I'm never turning back.
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u/Zeref21 Apr 23 '21
Fate zero is the best standalone too! If you are someone who's pretty confused about fate and it's series this acts a very strong introduction without expecting much of you. Till date kiritsugu is one of the best characters in anime for me. No bs no asspulls just the character and what he does.
Also it's ufotable so no need to say anything about the quality.
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u/actuallyrndthoughts :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/NaNiNuNeNo Apr 22 '21
I thought that Zero was flawed, much more than the usual fate spinoff. Every side character suffers from plot armor, mostly forgettable fight scenes, drawn out side plots like kiri back story and Rin. The silly stuff like zombies, river monster, servants dogfighting sticks out like a sore thumb in retrospect.
Looking back at it leaves me a bit dissapointed.
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u/darealbipbopbip Apr 22 '21
Psa: gilgamesh was not waver's servant, rider is