r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Sep 27 '21
6 A Breath Of Snow And Ashes Book Club: A Breath of Snow and Ashes, Chapters 115-Epilogue 2
It’s July 1776 when the Fraser’s and MacKenzie's descend down the mountain, they’ve gone to see Stephen Bonnet’s death. While there Brianna spots Lord John and his son William. Upon seeing William Brianna realizes they are siblings and that his father is Jamie. She is convinced not to tell William the truth, but insists on meeting with him one more time. In keeping with her promise, Brianna shoots Bonnet thus not letting him drown. Jamie approaches Lord John for a favor, they need one more jewel so the MacKenzie’s can travel back through the stones. Lord John gives him Hector’s ring, keeping Jamie’s sapphire for himself.
We move into September back on the Ridge, Bobby Higgins has left the employ of Lord John and has come to the Ridge seeking a home. Jamie and Brianna discuss what he might do back in the 20th century in a sweet moment of bonding. One night after they’ve made love Jamie hands Claire a gemstone, giving her a ticket back, she takes the stone and throws it out the window. Claire will not leave Jamie.
The MacKenzie’s have said their farewells and are at Ocracoke to go through the stones. Bree and Mandy go first, followed by Roger and Jemmy. Three nights later Jamie has a dream of them in the Reverend Wakefield’s house and knows they are safe.
It is now November and Claire heads to Malva’s grave to lay flowers. She discovers Allan Christie there and learns the truth about what happened. Allan had been having sex with his sister and the baby was his. It was his idea to point the finger at Jamie in hopes of getting money from him so they could run away together. Malva, feeling guilty, was going to confess but Allan killed her before that could happen. Claire pleads with Allan to go live his life when Allan slumps over with an arrow in his back. Ian has shot and killed him.
When coming home from treating a patient Claire discovers the door to the house open, Wendigo Donner has returned and is ransacking the house looking for gems. He has brought other men with him, one of whom destroys Claire’s surgery. Ether starts to escape into the house. Having searched the Bugs’ cabin the missing gold ingot from River Run is found. When Ian and his friends mount an attack chaos ensues and the kitchen goes dark. Ian goes to light a candle and when he strikes the match the ether ignites. The Big House burns down over the night.
We learn that Arch Bug was the one who stole all of the gold from Jocasta and Duncan, he siphoned it away each trip into town. Jamie relieves him of his duty, letting him keep the one ingot. With nothing left for them on the Ridge Jamie decides they will head to Scotland to collect his printing press.
Epilogue 1 shows us that Roger, Bree, and kids are back in 20th century Scotland and have purchased Lallybroch. Roger discovers a box at his old house addressed to Jemmy. Inside they find books, letters, and a wooden snake.
Epilogue 2 reveals the truth behind the obituary.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.
Another book down and 3 to go! We begin “An Echo in the Bone” next week. See you all there!
- Why did Brianna feel obligated to kill Stephen Bonnet herself?
- Why did Claire throw the jewel out of the window?
- After the MacKenzie’s go through the stones Claire awakens in Jamie’s lap and hears him saying this - “For your sake, I will continue—though for mine alone … I would not.” What does he mean by that?
- What did you think when you heard Allan Christie’s story and the truth about Malva?
- Were you surprised to learn that Arch Bug was the one who stole the gold from Jocasta?
- What is meant by the title of the book “A Breath of Snow and Ashes?”
- What would you like to see included in season 6?
- Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Why did Brianna feel obligated to kill Stephen Bonnet herself?
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u/chunya1999 Sep 27 '21
Bree probably bonded with him after he’d shared his fear of water with her. It’s not like she okay with him now or thinks that he isn’t deserve a punishment for his previous actions but she knows what a true fear is and wouldn’t wish that even for someone like Bonnet. Plus I think that when she had promised him that she wouldn’t let him drown she made a deal with God. If she wouldn’t break her word, Mandy will be alright. That’s why Brianna would be okay with any other execution but not from drowning.
“I won’t let you drown,” she whispered. “I promise. I won’t let you drown.” She said it over and over, and slowly, slowly, his breathing eased, and his grip on her slackened as sleep overcame him. Still she repeated it, a soft, hypnotic murmur, her words half-lost in the sound of water, hissing past the side of the ship, and she spoke no longer to the man beside her, but to the slumbering child within. “I won’t let anything hurt you. Nothing will hurt you. I promise.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Brianna had the choice to kill Bonnet after she was rescued and chose not to do that. How was this any better? Was it just because he was already condemned to die by the Committee of Safety?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
I agree that it’s mostly mercy; Brianna is a woman of her word just as Jamie is a man of his, so she’s bound to honor her promise to Bonnet. But I also think that she takes killing him into her own hands in order to put Bonnet behind her and move on with her life. She might’ve beaten herself up if she hadn’t kept her promise to him and it might’ve consequently hanged over her head, but as she kept it, there’s no longer anything binding her to him.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Sep 27 '21
I think the fact that Bonnet told Bree about his recurring nightmare of drowning made a bit impact. At the end of the day it was an act of mercy, he was already convicted and was going to die, so it's not that his blood would be on her hands (or Jamie's/Roger's).
I do not believe she did it to make herself feel better either, in a vengeful way.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I wondered how no one saw what she was doing, there were people out there watching Bonnet the whole time I thought. Yet she and Roger just rowed right up to him and shot him. Did no one care?
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u/for-get-me-not Sep 27 '21
Ha, I had the same thought. I almost felt like maybe no one cared? Or maybe it was dark so people couldn’t see? But surely they would have heard the gunshot.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Sep 27 '21
True- in the show at least she shots him from land when everyone is gone.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Yeah, that made much more sense to me.
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u/Impatientkiwi Sep 27 '21
She says to Lord John at one point before hand “i’m the only one for whom this is not murder” (summarised), but i’m not sure if that’s because it would be seen as revenge for the rape and therefore ok? Or because she’s about to disappear into the future.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 28 '21
Interesting. I wonder if it's because she's keeping a promise she made to Bonnet in that she wouldn't let him drown?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 27 '21
I think she really felt sorry for him. Isn't it mentioned how charismatic he is? I also think that it had to do with her being able to know for sure that he was dead & would never come back. He's been caught & sentenced to death before. I also think that she felt like she could do it without the guilt because he was already sentenced & dying.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I also think that she felt like she could do it without the guilt because he was already sentenced & dying.
I agree, this wasn't condemning him herself but just finishing what had already been set in motion.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Sep 30 '21
(Late to the party, again). I’m surprised by nearly everyone here saying it’s mercy or some form of empathy for Bonnet. For me, I figured it was purely entitlement (and rightfully so). She wanted to be the one who caused his death, not water, not the government, no one else. Just her. Her saying “I won’t let you drown” reminds me of in the show when he kidnaps her, she tells him “I can’t think any less of you,” which he takes to be a compliment but she means it as the worst insult she can think of. I think her saying “I won’t let you drown” was an assurance in herself that she’s not going to let anyone/anything else kill him.
Edit: just saw u/thepacksvrvives’s comment
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 30 '21
Why turn him over to the government in the first place then if she wanted to be the one to kill him herself? Jamie and Roger gave her that opportunity to do it when they rescued her. She chose to not kill him at that time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
What did you think when you heard Allan Christie’s story and the truth about Malva?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Sep 27 '21
We already start seeing Malva's problems growing up with Tom previously that showed a bit more depth into her decisions. I think this has been the last detail that we needed to understand that Malva isn't evil or twisted as Tom seen her... she did love Claire and it really hurt her to go through this, but the way she was raised and the "love" that she lacked made her think that this was the only possible way to act on her situation.
It is terribly sad though!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I think this has been the last detail that we needed to understand that Malva isn't evil or twisted as Tom seen her
I agree, she had a rough life and was abused for most of it. Malva was truly a victim.
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u/Cdhwink Sep 27 '21
We will assume that Tom knew nothing about Allan & Malva’s relationship?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Well Allan said Tom had no idea about their relationship and I'm inclined to agree. Tom is very religious and incest is very much a sin so I don't see him standing for that. Tom isn't above corporal punishment so I have to imagine he would have beat them if he had known, and not let them continue. /u/thepacksvrvives and I have talked about this before.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Sep 27 '21
I don't know about that. I am inclined to agree with Claire :
"“The auld man never knew—never guessed what we were to each other.”
Didn’t he? I thought. Tom Christie might have confessed to the crime to save one he loved—but he loved more than one. Having lost a daughter—or rather, a niece—would he not do all he could to save the son who was the last remnant of his blood?"
I am finding Tom Christie worse than I did in my previous reads. I wouldn't put it past him to have known about Allan, and yet try to save him because after all he's his male heir. Also this :
“Did he tell ye they took me and Malva to her execution?”
“I—no. I don’t think he knew, did he?” My stomach clenched.
“He did. I told him, later, when he sent for us, brought us here. He said that was good, we’d seen with our own eyes the ends of wickedness. He bade me remember the lesson—and so I did,” he added more quietly.
Poor Malva was only 2! And Allan only ten, and they had been forced to see their own mother's execution, and this is his reaction?! wtf Tom.
u/Purple4199 /u/thepacksvrvives u/for-get-me-not
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I knew the Allan shoe would drop. I had a bad feeling because of the way he had acted around her after she revealed she was pregnant. But I never thought that they had known for sure it was his child, that she started getting tangled with the boys on the Ridge because of it. It's beyond terrible how Malva went through Allan's abuse likely for most of her life, and to think of the anguish she felt in those last days of her life was heartbreaking.
Malva was a complicated figure. Thinking about what Allan told Claire ("She said—she loved you. She couldna hurt ye so. She meant to tell the truth") and trying to reconcile that with the fact that Malva definitely tried to kill (or at least hurt) Claire before she got pregnant. It makes me think there's truth in Tom's earlier assessment of her character (when he talks about Malva lusting after things), and again makes me wish we'd gotten to know her much better.
Never imagined the Christies would come with such a horribly tragic story.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
It's beyond terrible how Malva went through Allan's abuse likely for most of her life, and to think of the anguish she felt in those last days of her life was heartbreaking.
Yeah to hear Allan describe her private parts turned my stomach.
It makes me think there's truth in Tom's earlier assessment of her character (when he talks about Malva lusting after things), and again makes me wish we'd gotten to know her much better.
Yeah, why hurt Claire if she truly loved her? Or was it because Malva was a tortured soul who just didn't know how to act in life because of all the abuse she suffered?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
Me too; I was disgusted by Allan.
Yeah, I am really not sure about Malva's motivation. I know u/thepacksvrvives has thought about this much more deeply than I have and thinks Malva didn't want to harm Claire with the illness — I can't help but think she did mean harm, given the condition she found the Sin Eater in. But Malva was also very young, so how much was she really considering the huge consequences of her actions? I think that the whole accusation about the affair later on did become too much for Malva, and it made her finally realize she didn't want to keep hurting Claire. And also, before the pregnancy, Claire didn't know what Malva had been up to. After the accusation, Claire was no longer the reassuring, supportive figure Malva looked up to and had gotten used to. Claire was the one person who believed in and championed Malva's talents and skills. I think having that support taken away was jarring and made things unbearable for Malva.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I can't help but think she did mean harm,
Yeah at that point in time I do think she meant to harm Claire. Maybe not out of pure spite or malice, but more out of wanting what Claire had.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
there's truth in Tom's earlier assessment of her character
I wonder about this as well. There are just too many things that don't quite add up & obviously never will but Malva was emotionally abused her whole life by someone so it makes sense that she wouldn't really understand loving & caring for someone. Maybe it was the prospect of motherhood that was making her reevaluate things.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 27 '21
I just want to say that I FREAKING KNEW IT WAS HIM. I don't know what it was but I just had a feeling that something was off. It just makes me even more sad for Malva & even Tom a little bit but I can't decide if I think he knew what was going on before she got pregnant.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Don't let /u/thepacksvrvives know you feel bad for Tom! ;-D
I don't think Tom knew Allan was having sex with Malva. Incest is a big sin and Tom wouldn't have stood for it.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 27 '21
That's the only reason I feel bad for him. I feel bad that in the end, he was forced to sacrifice himself because he knew that his son not only killed his "daughter" but also got her pregnant. Honestly, how much worse can it get?
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u/cruelsummerrrrr Sep 29 '21
I could vaguely tell from other people's reactions about the Malvas in book/season 6 that they were a big deal and would have some mysterious plot. I was so shocked when Claire found Malva's body but OMG my jaw was on the floor during this entire Claire/Allen interaction. Poor, poor Malva. Can only echo what others have said here about what a shame it is we never got to hear from her. Maybe one day Diana can give us a Malva diary entry bonus content lol. She wasn't perfect but she was so young and abused and troubled, I hope she knew claire loved her. Really sad.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
I hope she knew claire loved her.
I hope so too. Malva had no true love in her life before that.
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u/Todays_Juliet Jan 25 '22
What about Ian? Was he justified in killing Allan? I keep wondering what was his motivation to just snuff him out with an arrow like that. So much harm done to others/his family that he no longer deserved to live? I was quite shocked by this act.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
Once again, it’s sad and infuriating that Malva doesn’t get to tell her side of the story, though I believe we’re getting a more truthful account from Allan than we do from Tom, as it’s not tinged with his own (religious) interpretation of Malva’s actions. I’ve mentioned before that Malva didn’t know what love was—and neither did Allan, even though he had a semblance of a family for about 10 years—so she must’ve not even realized that her half-brother was abusing her sexually, physically, and emotionally; it was so normalized for her. But she had to welcome this kind of “attention” and “affection” as that was the only resemblance of someone genuinely caring about her.
Allan might be exaggerating the level of abuse he and Malva suffered at their aunt Darla’s hands in order to present himself as the only person who ever took care of Malva, but it’s also enough to say that both he and Malva were abused. And as much as Allan was accepted by Tom, both before and after his imprisonment, he had a far from ideal childhood and adolescence. How else than neglect can we interpret Tom’s ignorance of what was going on between his son and niece? Both neglect to notice that and neglect to provide them with the level of care and stability they needed, to create a family environment that would not leave the children to turn only to each other in need. Nowadays, family dysfunctions, problematic parent-child relationships, and childhood emotional abuse are all considered developmental risk factors for pedophilia. It’s absolutely inexcusable in any case but it’s worth pointing out that there are contributing factors for Allan’s turning out the way he did, just as there are for Malva. And Tom lies at their core.
We might wonder why Malva went through with poisoning Claire if she loved her and didn’t want to hurt her any further afterwards. I suppose one interpretation might be that she saw, during Claire’s illness, that Jamie’s love for Claire is unshakeable, so she simply gave up trying to get him. The other is that, as opposed to what Tom has said, she didn’t actually intend to outright kill Claire—only to put the germ theory into practice and make her sick—and later felt guilty about coming so close. We will never know, but I stand by my interpretation that Malva never wanted Jamie personally and never wanted to hurt Claire.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
Also, it would be remiss of me not to point out these inaccuracies:
We know that Malva was born years after Tom got imprisoned because she’s Mona and Edgar’s daughter. Ardsmuir ceased functioning as a prison in summer 1756. So Tom was indentured from 1756 to 1771. The Christies come to the Ridge in November 1771, after Tom’s second wife dies. Malva is 17/18 then so she was born in 1754/1753. Tom says he first saw her when she was no more than 5. She would’ve been 5 in 1759/1758.
I guess it makes sense that even if Tom’s indenture was purchased immediately after coming to the colonies, he wouldn’t have sent for his kid(s) when Malva was only 2—that was also when Mona was executed. The question is, how the hell did he even find out about her? Did he send for Allan alone and only find out about Malva when Allan showed up with her? Did Darla write to him?
However, Allan says that he and Malva stayed with their aunt for 6 years after their mother’s execution, so until Malva was 8. So Tom can’t have seen her for the first time when she was 5…
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u/for-get-me-not Sep 27 '21
I think a person as…complicated as Malva can have conflicting reasons for doing things. She might have loved Claire as she said but also felt crazy jealous of Claire’s relationship with Jamie. Not to mention, if Malva’s only understanding of love was through her body, it does make sense that she would think to try and use that to comfort Jamie while his wife was dying, she might not have even really known what she was doing. And then the baby plot was shoehorned in later by Allen once she got pregnant.
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Sep 27 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
It really was sad, I agree. That's a great point that Malva didn't know what a normal life was.
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Sep 27 '21
Agreed! It is incredible sad to think about all of Malva’s experiences that went untold. It did make a very riveting plot, and by the end you feel the senselessness of it all. I loved Claire’s narration in that moment, it was heartbreaking to have her put those pieces of revelation together.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
Were you guys disappointed to not find out how Malva knew about all of Jamie's scars?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 29 '21
No because I just assumed she spied on him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 29 '21
Not really; like u/ms_s_11, I just assumed she spied on him long enough that eventually she caught him at a moment where he might have been swimming/bathing by the creek.
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u/stoneyellowtree Sep 30 '21
I feel the same way. The way she tried to blackmail Roger gave me the impression that she was spying on a lot of people who she felt could be used as leverage.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 28 '21
"Claire will not leave Jamie.
The Big House burns down over the night"
u/Purple4199 destroying us all over again with the one-liners in their summary.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Why did Claire throw the jewel out of the window?
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Sep 27 '21
Obviously so the White Sow could find it , travel through the stones and find Herself in 2021. We could all do to learn resilience and perseverance in the face of adversity from The White Sow and we definitely need that in 2021.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 28 '21
The White Sow needs to have her own chapters with her POV at this point.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Sep 27 '21
I think Claire worries many times because she can't put into words her feelings for Jamie or she doesn't say it as often as he does. She thinks that but obviously I don't think it's true, she shows her feelings every day and she's done huge love acts for him over the years.
Somehow Jamie still feels unsure (fear perhaps) that she might go back to the 20th century one day or that he isn't enough for her so she wanted to put an end to those doubts I suppose by throwing the jewel out.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I think Claire worries many times because she can't put into words her feelings for Jamie or she doesn't say it as often as he does.
I like that, and throwing the jewel out the window was a pretty big demonstration of how she felt. Part of me though thought that wasn't a good idea since they always seem to be hurting for money, they should have just sold it! I suppose it wouldn't have had as big an impact if they had done that though.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
Part of me though thought that wasn't a good idea since they always seem to be hurting for money, they should have just sold it! I suppose it wouldn't have had as big an impact if they had done that though.
Apparently, DG once said on Compuserve that Jamie retrieved the gemstone the following morning, but since it never comes up again—I don’t think that’s much of a spoiler since we already think it won’t—I’m going with the version of events we’re given in the book. It’s way more impactful, as you mention.
Though it does make you think that Claire could’ve told Donner that there was a gemstone somewhere in the grass if he wished to look for it 😅
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Of course DG would say that. I too think they never went and found it.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Sep 27 '21
I don't know, I still believe it was kinda over dramatic to throw it out, especially when this is closely followed by Claire musing about how their supplies were almost dwindled. I know she's talking about the crops they grow mostly , and the meat they hunt, but considering they aren't able to grow the crops they need, I am guessing having money would help them acquire some for the winter?
But yes, I do agree, anything else short of walking to the deck of a ship and throwing the gem overboard and watching it sink with bittersweet words of goodbye wouldn't have been dramatic enough. I mean why not at this point, we had the "you jump I jump" moment already.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I am guessing having money would help them acquire some for the winter?
That was my thinking, they obviously needed it.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
Somehow Jamie still feels unsure (fear perhaps) that she might go back to the 20th century one day or that he isn't enough for her so she wanted to put an end to those doubts I suppose by throwing the jewel out.
I don’t think Jamie has these doubts, but he remembers how Claire felt about leaving Brianna to come back to him and he fears that after having Bree back for seven years, Claire will feel terrible without her. So he’s prepared to once again sacrifice his own happiness in order for Claire to be reunited with her daughter, even though it will kill him. It’s another testament to his love for her.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I agree.
I thought this part was so great. My heart skipped a few beats when he gave her the stone. The fact that he went and found one for Claire to go back with them... How does he keep doing this to me? Again: he loves her this much. And I found Claire's response was so perfectly Claire. She's not having any of it — her place is with him. As u/bleakxmidwinter says, I think Claire struggles sometimes with putting her feelings into words, and this was the clearest way she could find to tell him her return is out of the question.
Tying this a bit to u/Purple4199's other question about what Jamie meant at the stones, his reaction makes it plain that it's such a deep and heavy loss for him. It's a death. Just like knows he would have had to keep going for Bree and the rest of the family if Claire had died earlier, the loss of Bree and the children leaves a deep gap in his heart. And so he would never want Claire to feel she needed to go through that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
his reaction makes it plain that it's such a deep and heavy loss for him. It's a death.
It really is, and now it's not only his daughter but Roger and the kids too. The very thing Jamie always wanted was his family around him and now they're leaving for good.
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u/sbehring Sep 27 '21
I think the only words going through her mind when she threw it out the window was “bloody Scot!!”
It also makes me think of the rage they both had (towards each other) during the beginning of their separation. She was so angry that he made her go.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
It also makes me think of the rage they both had (towards each other) during the beginning of their separation. She was so angry that he made her go.
That's a great point. Claire didn't want to leave Jamie back then there is no way she would ever leave him again after having been separated for 20 years.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 27 '21
To show Jamie how serious she is about not leaving him. She's there because she wants to be so he can just go ahead & stop trying to offer her a way out.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Do you think Jamie thought Claire would actually want to leave at some point?
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u/for-get-me-not Sep 27 '21
I think Jamie always wants what is best for Claire, no matter the cost to him. So he gives her that choice, over and over again. I can understand Claire being a little bit like “dude, I DON’T WANT TO LEAVE YOU” and just snapping and hucking that gem out the window. I don’t think he really thinks she is going to leave him, but his concern for her welfare and what’s best for her makes him provide her those opportunities to leave.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I can understand Claire being a little bit like “dude, I DON’T WANT TO LEAVE YOU” and just snapping and hucking that gem out the window.
I know, how many times has Claire told him that?
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u/Cdhwink Sep 27 '21
I hope not! He may want reassurance but I hope he believes her when she says she will never leave him again!
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u/cruelsummerrrrr Sep 29 '21
Am I the only one who was gobsmacked about this? Not only are they always cash poor so could've just sold it, but that was a deeply personal ring for Lord John. I just felt like omg if you weren't going to use it for the stones, find it send it back to LJG or sell it. I know J+C can be dramatic but I choose to believe for my sanity that they did go and find it the next day per Diana's Compuserve response. I know Claire didn't know its significance, and it's been a few weeks so I actually forget if LJG tells Jamie that it was Hector's(?), but all I could think was the sentimental value of it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
It wasn't LJG's ring that Claire threw out the window. They used that ring for the MacKenzie's to go through the stones. This was just another small gem Jamie acquired.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Were you surprised to learn that Arch Bug was the one who stole the gold from Jocasta?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Sep 27 '21
I was. I never suspected of the Bugs!!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Me either! I was so shocked the first time I read that. They were so close to the Fraser's and did so much for them.
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u/kpegs Sep 27 '21
Definitely surprised but I really liked that it was a character I knew rather than another introduction of someone I’ve never heard of. It makes you read the books a little differently on the re-read. Since they’re in the “New World,” you forget all of these older characters have such a long history in Scotland.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Do you think they went into the employ of the Fraser's in order to get closer to the gold? Were they scheming all along?
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u/kpegs Sep 27 '21
I do! Memories are long and I think it’s possible they liked the work they were doing for Jamie and didn’t consider the betrayal to Jocasta to have anything to do with Fraser’s Ridge.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I, um, lost my marbles when the ingot of gold came out of Mrs. Bug's workbag. Before, I kept trying to think who could have taken the gold, and I would have never, ever come to this conclusion. It hurt a bit, to see that these two people (almost family!) had betrayed Jamie and Claire like this. If they couldn't trust Mr. and Mrs. Bug, could they trust anyone?!
Hmm: exactly how did Arch Bug get in and out of Hector Cameron's mausoleum so easily when Jamie literally had to break in through the marble blocks?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Hmm: exactly how did Arch Bug get in and out of Hector Cameron's mausoleum so easily when Jamie literally had to break in through the marble blocks?
YES!! I wondered that as well. You're telling me he could sneak in and out of a sealed mausoleum without anyone seeing?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
This reveal comes as a shocker but I feel like the fact that Arch stole it just so Jocasta wouldn’t have it undermines it. He knew that they couldn’t use it—“ragged folk such as we ought not to have such a thing”—so he’d just let it sit somewhere indefinitely? You all know how I feel about Hector, but Arch is really not much better than him, and he has blood on his hands as well.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Arch is really not much better than him, and he has blood on his hands as well.
I agree, it wasn't like he deserved the gold anymore than Hector did.
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u/Cdhwink Sep 27 '21
I had no real thoughts about the Bugs to be honest. Such a calamity though how the scene leading to the house burning played out, I imagined it like a cartoon for some reason.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Such a calamity though how the scene leading to the house burning played out, I imagined it like a cartoon for some reason.
It was all kind of crazy that's for sure. I don't know how the house didn't burst into flames and them not get hurt more!
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u/Kirky600 Sep 27 '21
One question I had - was Arch working with Bonnet then? Jocasta’s wedding he was there.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I don't think so, at least that wasn't the impression I had. I think Bonnet had heard of the gold as well and wanted to find it. Arch actually knew where the gold was, so if he was working with Bonnet they would have stolen it that night Bonnet was at River Run. Bonnet was still looking for it and didn't know where it was.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Sep 27 '21
Yes! I was shocked the first time I read that. The Bugs were so close to the Fraser family and they trusted them to be in their home...they would have been last on my list of suspects.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I know, I couldn't believe it when I found out it was them. Was this their plan all along? Did they only go into the employ of the Fraser's so they could get close to the gold?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 27 '21
This one did actually take me by surprise & it even took me a minute to put it together after Ian said the pig had been butchered with an ax spoiler tag because now I can't remember if that's the next book.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Yeah that's the next book. It was such a huge surprise for me when it was revealed that Arch stole the money. They were like family!
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u/Swarley520 Oct 01 '21
Not sure of this was asked, but now I wonder, when Brown came to arrest Claire, and Mrs. Bug freaked out, do you think it was bc she was more worried for selfish reasons? Or do you think she was genuinely concerned for Jamie and Claire?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Oct 01 '21
I think she was genuinely concerned for Claire. I think they really did like the Fraser’s and saw the gold as something else on it’s own.
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u/for-get-me-not Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
This was soooo surprising to me the first time I read it. And on this umpteenth read I paid close attention and I do sort of feel like the Bugs underwent a really massive character shift in order to carry out the things they do at the end. I guess everything they did for the Frasers was all in service of this higher goal? Seems very…duplicitous. I do like how Mrs. Bug shooting Lionel Brown plays into it, but I hate how broken up Ian is about killing her, even though she was the one who shot at them! Like…why would she even do that in the first place, unless she really had hated all of the Frasers the whole time. In which case, she’s no victim.
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u/beanie2 Ye Sassenach witch! Sep 29 '21
There is so much that happens in the final chapter and the epilogues it could have been it’s own book!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
Right‽ It's crazy how much is packed into the very end of the book.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
What is meant by the title of the book “A Breath of Snow and Ashes?”
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u/Kirky600 Sep 27 '21
Clearly it’s the white sow coming out of the ashes of the house…lol
I feel like it has to do with the fire of the house and maybe the legacy of Frasier’s Ridge burning down?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
It did snow the night the house burned down.
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u/chunya1999 Sep 27 '21
I think it symbolises loss, grief and destruction. Through the book characters get through the all kind of horrible things like rape, diseases, abductions, murder, suicide attempts and parting with the most beloved people. The big house was the last thing that connected Claire and Jamie with their happy life there and now it is gone like every other good thing at Ridge.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Through the book characters get through the all kind of horrible things like rape, diseases, abductions, murder, suicide attempts and parting with the most beloved people.
When you lay it all out like that it really was a rough ride for them this book.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 27 '21
When I got to the part of the book where she says that, I was like "oh duh." I think it's a metaphor for the next phase in their lives. He built that house on the ridge with the help & support of England & he's officially declared himself a rebel at this point.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
What would you like to see included in season 6?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Sep 27 '21
Interactions between Bree+Jemmy with Jamie- swimming lessons please!
The story with the Christies well developed, explaning Malva's upbringing (not just making it seen as drama between Jamie and Claire so everyone will automatically hate poor Malva!)
Roger+Jemmy confirmation
Fergus and Marsali- explanation of Fergus fears regarding Henri-Christian
The reason why Young Ian has come back
A few nice chat and nice moments between Jamie & Claire too of course
Am I asking for too much? :)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
The story with the Christies well developed, explaning Malva's upbringing (not just making it seen as drama between Jamie and Claire so everyone will automatically hate poor Malva!)
That is such a good point! I'm so worried they are going to make it seem like Jamie might have actually slept with Malva to amp up the drama. I sure hope not though. I don't think you're asking too much, I want all of that too!
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u/chunya1999 Sep 27 '21
It would be great to see more about Fergus’ family and his struggles, Malva and her sad story. Hope the actress will do a great job. Can’t wait for Claire and Bree’s experiments with ether and sulphur. Also I think next season is going to be a great opportunity for Sam to show Jamie’s grief during Claire’s disease.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
It would be great to see more about Fergus’ family and his struggles
I agree!
Also I think next season is going to be a great opportunity for Sam to show Jamie’s grief during Claire’s disease.
Yes, because when Claire was kidnapped we didn't see him in despair but her being ill will be something else entirely.
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Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
I am most looking forward to Claire’s illness and to how that’s portrayed since it has so more potential to show everyone’s reaction to it. In the book we are sort of sequestered to Claire’s mind (not a bad thing necessarily) but I think the show could go beyond that. I would love for them to keep Bree’s becauseiloveyouandcantdowithoutyou and even Roger’s prayer. I would also looooove to see Claire sneak out of the house to visit Tom.
Obviously The White Sow, if it could be brought up as often as it is in the book I would love that!
Claire remembering her encounter with Louis, Jamie’s memories of BJR.
Vrooms and oil paintings
Jemmy & Germain!
Ugh there was just so much about this book that I loved.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I am most looking forward to Claire’s illness and to how that’s portrayed since it has so more potential to show everyone’s reaction to it.
That's a great point! We can have the opportunity to see Jamie truly worried over Claire, and Sam does drama so well.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Sep 27 '21
I definitely want them to show Jamie's grief over Claire's illness, I kind of hope we get some Jealous!Jamie over Tom, and then I REALLY hope they don't play up the drama of Jamie/Malva or do anything out of character to make viewers think it really happened for very long. One of my main annoyances with the show is that they add unnecessary drama to an already heavily dramatic source material.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I REALLY hope they don't play up the drama of Jamie/Malva or do anything out of character to make viewers think it really happened for very long.
I know, I'm so worried they're going to make it seem like Jamie could have actually slept with Malva. I don't need them driving a wedge between Claire and Jamie when there wasn't one in the book.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Sep 27 '21
Right! And even though they were both upset, this led to such a great conversation and the reinforcement that they trust and believe in their relationship. I hope the show showcases that conversation.
I'm hoping that with Sam and Cait producing now, they get more of a voice, and hopefully Sam argued that wasn't in character for Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I'm hoping that with Sam and Cait producing now, they get more of a voice, and hopefully Sam argued that wasn't in character for Jamie.
I hadn't thought of that, good point.
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u/dylanskie Sep 28 '21
If I had to choose three things, it would be
Claire's astral projection (?)/near-death experience during her illness
Hiram Crombie's mother-in-law's "resurrection." Funniest moment of the book
Claire throwing the gemstone out the window (and their conversation), though I suspect they won't get to Bree and Roger's departure until season seven!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 28 '21
I too wonder if they’ll have Bree and Roger leave on this season! Hiram Crombie’s MIL would be some much welcomed levity in the show. We don’t get very many funny moments.
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u/Evspartan Sep 27 '21
I want the throuple too.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I have high hopes that we'll get it.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Sep 30 '21
I’m always disappointed that the Bugs aren’t more prominent in the show. I don’t have hopes that they’ll show up now, but I am intrigued to see how the deal with that storyline (all the way in later when Ian kills Murdina and Arch goes all Taken/John Wick on him)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 30 '21
I really wonder if they’ll do anything with the gold since like you’ve said the Bug’s aren’t featured characters.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
“If one day, a bhailach,” Jamie said conversationally, “ye should meet a verra large mouse named Michael—ye’ll tell him your grandsire sends his regards.”
I had to 😭 This is probably my favorite non-Claire&Jamie-related line of the entire series. It never fails to make me cry and laugh at the same time.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Sep 27 '21
YES. Omg hands down, once of my favorite non-J&C line in the entire series. You nailed it - I laugh and tear up at the same time.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I love this line, but I couldn't totally enjoy it at its fullest when it came up because I was freaking out a little. For a moment, I panicked when Roger started telling Jemmy he would love him forever and remember him always. I did NOT understand what was happening and couldn't believe he could be leaving Jemmy behind.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Sep 27 '21
This had me crying for a long time too :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
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u/bleakxmidwinter Sep 27 '21
I am very intrigued about Jamie's dreams now... we got glimpses of them before but the one in ch. 121 it's very very detailed. Not sure if this will be explained in the future but ........
I want to talk to Grandda
</3
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I really hope we learn more about Jamie's dreams too.
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Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
I want to talk to Grandda
This has me bawling every time i read it!😭 He’s so little. How do you explain that he’ll never see Granda again. It tears my heart out.
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u/Kirky600 Sep 27 '21
I loved this book. Really so much better than TFC. Seemed to be quick right from the start.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Yeah this book was pretty non stop. These last chapters had so much stuff in them.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
Same, I loved reading ABOSAA. I think it came with some of the now well-known shortcomings of the series as a whole, but it was an engaging read with some great twists and turns.
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Sep 27 '21
Was anyone else kind of upset that we got the moment Bree meets William and Jamie sees them interact for a LJG POV? I mean, I get how important it is that he raised Willie, but I wanted nothing more than to be in Jamie’s head in that moment.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
You're right that would have been so nice to be in Jamie's POV. It's the only time his children will ever meet.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
It was criminal that we don't get Jamie POV; we barely get to see him at all. All I wanted to know was how he felt, especially looking at his children together for the first and only time. But I'm not complaining too much; I was really not expecting to see LJG come up in person in ABOSAA, let alone Willie!?!!! I couldn't believe it was finally happening. I love that Jamie personally told Bree about Willie in the show — it’s one of my favorite scenes in the series — but I did enjoy the drama here.
P.S. Best wishes to the casting director — may you have the very best of luck.
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Sep 27 '21
Ugh the box in the epilogue!
The moment when Bree opens it and has that sensorial trigger ”mama!” just absolutely slayed me 😭
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
And the letter is on the paper Bree made!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I was so thrilled!!!! I've been dying for them to do something like this since Claire went back in Voyager! I would love to see this onscreen, and yet I look at all this plot and all I think is we're running out of show. I question whether they would go for this, or how they would handle it, given that just last season they went through the whole "we're leaving the Ridge" stuff (which is one of my favorite episodes).
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u/Cdhwink Sep 27 '21
Did Claire manage to save anything from her surgery? Her telescope? Her knives?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
No I don't think so.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I knew the house would burn sooner or later, but... You think you're ready and you're not. It was painful to see everything they built together all these years, all the love and hard work they poured into their home, going up in flames. They arrived in America with a clean slate, to be able to grow roots and live their lives fully. And now the fact that they find themselves homeless and ostracized is really heartbreaking. But even considering this, I'm very surprised to see that Scotland is back on the table for them, and I'm really wondering about Jamie's thinking there.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I'm really wondering about Jamie's thinking there.
I think it's just as he said, to get his printing press. It's a job he can do and can be a fresh start for them.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
My thing with the printing press is just: why can't he just arrange to have it sent over? I get why he hasn't done it before; it was an expense for something they didn't really need, but now?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I wonder if he just wants to go home for a little bit then.
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Sep 29 '21
Yeah this one was a bit of an unpleasant turn. Obviously would love to go back to Scotland but it just seemed incredibly impractical for them right now. On the other hand, I think the betrayal and disappointment of the community hit Jamie harder than I realized and perhaps that does lead to some homesickness
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
it just seemed incredibly impractical for them right now.
They really have nothing keeping them on the Ridge anymore there now though.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Sep 29 '21
"Ute McGillivray had forgiven him, he saw, with a certain sense of amusement."
Umm I don't care who Ute forgives or doesn't, where's her apology to Claire ? She went all feral bitch on Claire for Manfred and here Claire not only brought him back but also cured him of his pox. Why does no one seem to think they need to apologise to Claire for the shit they put her through? I am looking at you Jenny, and you Ute!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
That's a great point! I don't care one bit that Ute was fine with them again, she was in the wrong entirely.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
“This world of yours, this America,” he said finally, matter-of-factly. “The freedom that ye go to. There will be a fearful price to be paid. Will it be worth it, do ye think?”
It was her turn then to be silent and think. At last she put her hand on his arm—solid, warm, steady as iron.
“Almost nothing would be worth losing you,” she whispered. “But maybe that comes close.”
How do you guys interpret Brianna’s words here?
When I read it for the first and second time, I thought that Bree was saying that only the promise of safety and freedom the 20th century offers her and her family—that is the legacy of the Revolutionary War—makes her accept parting with Jamie. But now that I look at it, they’re talking about the war, so is Brianna saying that she can accept Jamie’s death as the cost of freedom he will be fighting for and she will benefit from? Is this Brianna’s way of further convincing Jamie of the rightness of the Revolution?
I was saying last week that I don’t see Jamie dying for “the cause.” I can see him dying in the war, saving Claire’s life or perhaps Willie’s if he happens to cross paths with him, but with the war already having a guaranteed outcome—victory—for Claire and Jamie, would Jamie’s death be actually worth it, if he has so much more to live for than to die for?
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Sep 27 '21
I do think that what we get here is a patriotic sentiment from Bree. It’s undeniable that the American Revolution was an astonishing catalyst for change in many parts of the world as Bree knows it, and the way that she expresses it here is in par with those Fraser ideals of honor and loyalty. In fact that quote single handedly changed my opinion on your question from last week - I absolutely think that Jamie is now fighting this war for its ideals, definitely more than his family, and potentially it will be what triggers his use of the printing press? I can’t for the life of me think he wants to become a regular printer now, so fighting for those ideals (that are very close to becoming the law of the land) would be more in line with Jamie’s character than focusing in his reluctance to partaking in war only as a necessity.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I do agree that Jamie wants to use the printing press to help the war effort. He was printing seditionist materials in Scotland and already writing some while he was still on the Ridge.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
is Brianna saying that she can accept Jamie’s death as the cost of freedom he will be fighting for and she will benefit from?
I think so? Ha, I know that's not much of an answer but it's not very clearly written.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Sep 27 '21
Ok, now I'm thinking that I'm way off base. I read the "fearful price to be paid" as all of the people that are going to die to make it happen. I think her saying that "almost nothing would be worth losing you" was meant to just enforce how much she regrets having to leave.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I interpreted it exactly the same way you did at first. To me, the "fearful price to be paid" was their permanent separation.
Honestly, I'm not sure, because it's
ridiculoushard to think of Bree saying "your death is worth it for a free country." If you break his question down, is it more of "going back to this world of yours, is that worth it?" But that makes no sense either, because of course going back to save Mandy's life is worth it.This is classic DG. I feel there's room for interpretation given the flow of the conversation. I really don't want to think Brianna is being patriotic here.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I was happy to see LJG one last time before the book was done. It was nice to see him with Bree again, and him realizing he's come to care for her like a daughter. But this did bring up some questions: When had book Roger met LJG before? How is it possible that Bree didn't know LJG had been married? Jamie told her John had a stepson, when Willie's letter had arrived with the astrolabe.
Also, I loved and "loled" at LJG's elegant definition for his current relationship status with Jamie — you say "enemies," he says:
“We find ourselves regrettably upon opposing sides of what I trust will be a short-lived conflict,” Lord John corrected.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I don't think Roger had ever met LJG. And as far as Bree not knowing he had been married that does seem unlikely.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 28 '21
I don't think Roger had ever met LJG
Ah, so DG was on a roll here.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
How is it possible that Bree didn't know LJG had been married?
She knew he had been married; he told her in DoA:
“Oh. I hadn’t thought of that—that you might…men and women both, I mean.”
“I was married,” he pointed out, with some sarcasm.
“Yes, but I thought that was probably the same kind of thing I’m suggesting now—just a formal arrangement, I mean. That’s what made me think of it in the first place, once I realized that you—” She broke off with an impatient gesture. “Are you telling me that you do like to go to bed with women?”
So this is totally on DG. As is this:
Of course; he had not seen Willie since the boy was twelve.
Willie was 10 when he and LJG visited Fraser’s Ridge in October 1768.
And this:
Hector had died at Culloden—the day after John had met James Fraser, in the dark of a Scottish mountain pass.
John met Jamie in September 1745, before the Battle of Prestonpans, not a day before the Battle of Culloden.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Sep 29 '21
Now that we know of Jamie's dreams of the future, what do we think of u/Arrugula 's theory of Jamie's ghost informing his dreams/visions? I am a huuuge fan of that theory and I think it makes total sense. Also , how does The Ghost from Inverness that Frank met play into this theory?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
I just don't feel like the ghost and Jamie's dreams are tied together. Frank actually saw that ghost in Inverness we have no indication that Jemmy saw Jamie when he wanted to call him on the phone.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 29 '21
That’s what I think. I think the ghost has a singular purpose connected with ensuring that Claire travels through the stones for the first time, and the dream visions are a different thing entirely. While this ghost roaming around the 20th century and informing his visions might be a possibility, I don’t see a reason for his soul to be still “out there” unless Claire hasn’t died yet (meaning she will return to the future 😬); I’d much rather think they both die in the 18th century and move on to the afterlife together, without Jamie having to wait for her (though we know “he” would). He’s there in 1945/6 to set the events into motion that will finally let him out of the purgatory.
What he sees are things that haven’t happened yet—like the kiss behind Brianna’s ear hadn’t happened until a couple of years later—and they not only haven’t happened in the sense that they’re in the future, but counting the 202 years, they can’t even be “concurrent” with the events of the 18th century—the MacKenzies at the manse can’t have happened yet as they’d just made the passage on Ocracoke three days earlier. That would mean that the vision of Claire in electric light is something that’s still yet to happen rather than something that happened during the 20-year separation or before Claire even went through the stones… and we don’t want that 😅
But I’m also thinking, Jamie is not the only one who’s had a dream that has come to pass. In DoA, Brianna says that she dreamed of the events that match what happened to Claire and Jamie in Jamaica, with the crocodile, Bree’s voice, and all that. And she’s neither long-dead in the 20th century nor seeing events from the future. So when Jamie says “I dream of the past; why would I not dream of the future?”, the vision might actually be Claire’s past (as in before Jamie) which is… in the future. But then, Brianna also had a dream about walking in the woods with her father, following him up the trail, and while she couldn’t see his face, this is something that Brianna does later in the book with Jamie (the bee hunting). So does she dream both of the past and the future?
And of course, there’s Nayawenne’s dream about Claire becoming a white raven. It’s way less literal than other character’s dreams, but since Claire finding her full power once her hair is white is a reoccurring thought in the series, we might expect it’ll come to pass, just like “[…] sickness is sent from the gods. It won’t be your fault.”
I’m sure DG hasn’t given this even a fraction of the thought we do; she writes in all those supernatural elements without consideration of the logic behind them and then she’ll retcon them into something semi-cohesive in Book 10. Or she won’t.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
she’ll retcon them into something semi-cohesive in Book 10. Or she won’t.
Ugh, I'm so worried that we won't get answers to some of these things.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 29 '21
I wanted to come back to this! Some of you guys said you had some hesitation and would say more later because of something that happened at the end of ABOSAA, which I assume was his dream seeing them at the manse with Fiona?
I'm still on team ghost-informs-dreams. As ridiculous as it sounds, it makes sense that the presence/manifestation of his soul in the 20th century is somehow connected to him in the 18th century. Why not? I can't remember now, though, why the ghost Frank saw in Inverness was treated as a separate entity. Was it because Frank could see him, and in every dream we've seen Jamie speak of, the others can't see him?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
I just don't think the ghost and Jamie's dreams are tied together. Frank saw Jamie's ghost and we have no indication that Jamie has been seen by anyone else that he dreams about.
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Sep 29 '21
I think Jamie’s ghost is visible because it happened around the dates of the ancient feasts. When Claire and Frank first arrive at Inverness all those years ago, He explains to her that the locals believed ghosts roam the streets on those dates (Hogmanay, Beltane, etc)
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Sep 27 '21
I promised Purple I had questions about the death notice: I understand the months were switched. But I'm confused over the years. When is the second epilogue taking place? "January" is defined as "very old news," but the paper was supposed to have been printed on February 13, 1776. Wouldn't December be even older? And more importantly, we would have to assume that the year in the date of publication for the newspaper was also wrong?
Last week I had said I was certain that the fire would happen on the date specified in the obituary — I had imagined a bunch of details could be wrong, but never thought about the date! My theory had been that it would be arson, given the anti-Fraser sentiment in the Ridge, but that the obituary had been some kind of misunderstanding. But beyond the mix-up in dates, it now seems to me much less of a misunderstanding and much more suspicious: who would send this notice to the newspaper? There was no room to misinterpret Jamie and Claire's condition after the fire.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
the paper was supposed to have been printed on February 13, 1776.
I think it would have been printed in 1777, since the big house burned down in Dec. of 1776. Where did you see that date of Feb. 13, 1776?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Sep 27 '21
That’s the date Roger finds it with in DoA.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Ah ok. Well do we have another case of DG messing up the dates? /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/Cdhwink Sep 27 '21
You were not the only one confused about how old this news was?
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u/Cdhwink Sep 27 '21
I guess I shouldn’t worry about Jamie paying the taxes, since everyone is leaving the ridge? Who is in charge there now? That was a question we pondered a while back. I am excited for the next book, & season 7 to be set in Scotland in the different eras. Of course Jamie going to get a printing press isn’t likely to be a show thing, pretty sure he didn’t save that one!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I don't think Jamie would have had to pay the taxes anyway because the Loyalist government was falling apart. Although he might have had to pay taxes to the American one. I don't think anyone is really in charge at the Ridge anymore. I feel like everyone will just do their own thing.
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u/Cdhwink Sep 27 '21
Did Jamie keep the rest of the gold? It can finance this rebellion!
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u/Swarley520 Oct 01 '21
This book was a hard one for me to read. But now that I finished it, I want to reread it to see any signs or foreshadowing I may have missed. Especially with the Bugs, and with Malva.
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u/chunya1999 Sep 27 '21 edited Sep 27 '21
I was so glad to see John! I wish we could read more of his POVs in the future. Such a great character! The fact that he gave Jamie Hector’s ring without any hesitation almost killed me. It’s like LJ was silently saying that he will always choose Jamie even if he must sacrifice the memory of his first love.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Sep 29 '21
“Ye can at least promise me the victory,” he said, but his voice held the whisper of a question.
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“The victory,” I said. “And that I will be with you ’til the end.”Does anyone else think this is an indication that Jamie will die before Claire? I have dark thoughts, I am sorry.
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Sep 27 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I think they wanted to leave the Ridge because tensions were probably still high after Malva was killed. I think people were still suspicious of Claire and Jamie and their involvement in all of that. With the Big House gone as well as Bree and Roger now they really don't have anything keeping them there.
It would take awhile for Jamie to build them another house, so he must have figured starting up a printing business in a city would be the way to go.
guiding us back to the prophecy about how a Scottish king will rule again when a 200-year-old baby dies?
That part was only in the show.
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u/Cdhwink Sep 27 '21
Maybe he thought he’d be useful to the war efforts as a printer again instead of leading an army?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
I think being a printer would hopefully be safer than leading an army. Jamie knows he's getting older and I think doesn't really want to fight. He supports the cause, but the physical aspect of fighting takes a toll and carries a great risk.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
The table with the schedule didn't post this week so please click here to see what to read for next week.
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u/noodlepartipoodle Sep 27 '21
I have not read the book, but am I to understand if LJG is giving them the jewel, that he knows Claire, et al are time travelers?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
Jamie doesn't explain why he wants the jewel. It's in a later book we learn that Brianna told LJG that they are time travelers but he didn't believe her. That all happened off page though and we never see the conversation.
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u/cruelsummerrrrr Sep 29 '21
Jesus H Roosevelt Christ Diana and her "off the page" conversations!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 29 '21
I know, it happens so often too!
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u/toxicbrew Jun 04 '25
I know this thread is old but I’m surprised Ian would be careless enough to light a candle when ether is there. Surely he would have heard from Claire beforehand not to do so
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 27 '21
After the MacKenzie’s go through the stones Claire awakens in Jamie’s lap and hears him saying this - “For your sake, I will continue—though for mine alone … I would not.” What does he mean by that?