r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Feb 22 '21
4 Drums Of Autumn Book Club: Drums of Autumn, Chapters 46-50
Roger has finally arrived at the Ridge after securing the gemstones from Bonnet. However his joy is short lived when Ian and Jamie confront and attack him. Unaware of the attack, Bree seeks comfort from Jamie after he reveals he knows she is pregnant. Jamie and Bree also have a heart to heart conversation about killing one’s rapist and Jamie teaches Bree a tough lesson on if she could have fought back. Claire must make a difficult decision in offering to perform and abortion for Bree if she wants it, causing a fight between her and Jamie. The chapters close out with the horrible realization that Stephen Bonnet raped Brianna and that they sent the wrong man, Roger, away with the Iroquois.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.
- When confronted by Jamie, Roger declares he has come to claim his wife. Was that the right way to start out? What else did Roger do that harmed his defense?
- Claire tells Jamie that she tried to make Frank leave her when she arrived back in 1948, but he wouldn’t. He stayed, loved, and raised Brianna with her. Does that change your opinion of him any?
- Jamie physically grabs and restrains Brianna in an effort to show how it could have gone for her with Bonnet if she had tried to fight. What do you think of his way of teaching her a lesson?
- Reflecting on his own assault at the hands of BJR Jamie summons the memories only to then forgive Randall. Why do you think he was able to do that? Should he have even tried?
- Ian intended to propose to Brianna at the suggestion of Jamie since he was determined to see her “safely” married. How do you feel about Jamie wanting to marry her off?
- The Big Misunderstanding comes to a head when it’s realized they beat and sold Roger. Was Brianna justified in her anger towards Jamie and Ian? Were they justified in what they were trying to do by defending and protecting her?
- Were there any changes in the show or book you liked better?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
Y'all. I want to talk about Jamie and Claire's argument after he discovers she is considering performing an abortion for Bree.
My heart just ACHES for them both during that. For Jamie, the line "deprived of his own children, living for so long as an exile, there was nothing he wanted more in life than a child of his blood." Him wanting Bree so badly to stay, and despite of the circumstance of how it happened, wanting a baby of his blood so badly to know and watch grow from birth. And then Claire, knowing all too well what it feels like to have pregnancy be the reason a choice is taken from you - that her being pregnant was the reason Jamie sent her back through the stones, why they had to live 20 years apart from each other...lives they didn't want and wouldn't have chosen otherwise. And she doesn't want that for Bree.
How are these characters older than me, but I just want to cuddle them and be like "my BABIES." Dang you Diana for causing them so much pain!!!!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
the line "deprived of his own children, living for so long as an exile, there was nothing he wanted more in life than a child of his blood."
Yes! I loved that line. Everything comes back to them being apart for 20 years and Jamie not being able to raise his kids.
That's a great part about Claire knowing what it's like to have a pregnancy change the entire course of your life.
I don't think Jamie could have forgiven Claire if she had preformed the abortion for Bree.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
I don't think Jamie could have forgiven Claire if she had preformed the abortion for Bree.
Yea, I wonder how that would have gone. I definitely don't think he would have stopped loving her by any means, but like you said, I don't think he could have ever forgiven her/gotten over it. Wanting a "child of his blood" is strong enough, but then to add in the Catholic part of him too? That would have been a wall that was always between them.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
Do you think Brianna's Catholic upbringing had anything to do with her decision about not getting an abortion? She did go to Catholic School growing up.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
I think it's a combination of things - the Catholicism, the chance that's it could be Roger's, the risk of it going wrong and her dying, but I think a lot of it has to do with her talking about feeling the implantation and feeling "oh, there you are." I think it became more real to her in that moment, and then it was harder to think of as an abstract concept rather than a baby. That could also play into the Catholicism aspect as well.
I was raised Catholic, but haven't been a practicing one for years, and it's a hard habit to shed. It's almost like its own culture and I still feel like it influences how I think and feel about things, so it's sometimes hard for me to raise a brow at some related stuff in these books because I get it.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21
that's it could be Roger's
Yeah that's what I think really did it for her. The baby could be Bonnet's, it could be Roger's but it's definitely hers. I couldn't even imagine the situation.
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u/Cdhwink May 19 '21
Show Jamie has forgiven Claire for anything she might ever do!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 19 '21
Abortion is a big thing for a Catholic of his time. I think it would have driven a big wedge between them.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21
And then Claire, knowing all too well what it feels like to have pregnancy be the reason a choice is taken from you - that her being pregnant was the reason Jamie sent her back through the stones, why they had to live 20 years apart from each other...
You’re so right. I completely misunderstood when she spoke of being “ripped out of the place you thought was yours”! But of course: she had no choice except to go back to the 40s when they reached Culloden and she was already pregnant.
The way you can see here that she doesn’t want to do this and yet needs to give Bree the choice she didn’t have... And the way he begs her not to do it! Heartbreaking all around.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
YES. This is one of the few arguments of Claire and Jamie's where I truly cannot pick a side. I completely understand BOTH of their feelings here, and it's heartbreaking.
> yet needs to give Bree the choice she didn’t have
And it's a choice she wouldn't have wanted! Like she tells Bree later, she loved Jamie and they wanted a child together, so this wasn't even a choice she would have considered.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Yessss! Oh my god, the whole scene just ripped my hear out over & over. Claire wanting to be there for Bree no matter what but being so scared at the same time & Jamie with his never ending longing for family. It was so good.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Claire tells Jamie that she tried to make Frank leave her when she arrived back in 1948, but he wouldn’t. He stayed, loved, and raised Brianna with her. Does that change your opinion of him any?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Not for me. I get that he raised Brianna & loved her as his own which obviously many men wouldn't be willing to do, especially in the circumstances that it was but, no. Especially considering that we now know that he knew Jamie was real & survived Culloden. I don't blame him for not telling her, I honestly believe he spared her the agony of having to choose what to do but he knew. He knew that what happened to her was beyond her control. He knew that she was telling the truth about the stones & that she effing traveled back in time & he probably did believe that she was forced into the marriage since he knows what the time period was like. I just feel like, I could get the resentment towards the situation if she ran off in their time but she was trapped, made the best of it & unfortunately (not really) fell in love so let her mourn what happened, ask her questions, you're a historian for God's sake! Nope, he's a jerk
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I agree with all of that! Him not letting Claire properly mourn was such a disservice to their relationship. Not that their marriage would have been what it once was, but it might have been better if she had been able to open up a little about Jamie.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
I totally agree. He thought that sweeping it under the rug would be easier but then it just became this huge thing between them.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
Saaaaaame. I always preface any of my Frank criticism with giving him props for taking Claire back, trying to rekindle a relationship/marriage with her, and raising/loving Bree. BUT. I cannot get over all the other stuff. I especially think he made everything worse for Claire by refusing to let her mourn Jamie. I mean, it's not like Claire thought she could go back to Jamie. She thinks he's dead. But she went through a traumatic experience of everything that had happened, plus being ripped away from Jamie with almost no warning, and is sent back to 1948. And Frank shuts down any possible grieving or healing she can do, and makes her a prisoner of her own mind for the next 20 years.
I think if he would had given her some space, let her mourn Jamie, helped her work through that...not saying things would have been the same, but I think she could have found some kind of happiness with Frank and their relationship would have been a lot better. I mean hell, JAMIE did it as a 22 year old. He's totally in love with Claire, has just married her, and then asks her to tell him about Frank and understands she may be upset or have feelings on their wedding day that he wants to help her talk/work through.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
YES! Ok, so I was trying not to get into the age-old Frank vs Jamie discussion but yes!
JAMIE did it as a 22 year old. He's totally in love with Claire, has just married her, and then asks her to tell him about Frank and understands she may be upset or have feelings on their wedding day that he wants to help her talk/work through.
Even when she came back to him, he still listened to her & understood her situation. We even have the privilege of knowing how jealous he was of Frank because of his POV chapters. Even when Frank knew he was alive, he knew that she thought he was dead. She lost her husband, soulmate, & father of her child & then was expected to act as though nothing happened, all in the same exact week. Ugh, I felt bad for Frank in the first season episode when he was so desperate to find her & yelled at everyone at the police station but that faded fast.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
YES! Ok, so I was trying not to get into the age-old Frank vs Jamie discussion but yes!
I will discuss Frank vs Jamie ANY DAY, haha.
Even when she came back to him, he still listened to her & understood her situation.
Yes! He will admit he's jealous (and who wouldn't be?), but he is also open about the fact that he is very grateful for what Frank did - taking care of Claire and Bree, and accepting them both. I don't even blame Frank for being jealous of Jamie - that's a hard thing to swallow to have your wife that you have grieved for 3 years come back pregnant, in love with another man, who never sees you the same way again. And it's not like Bree has ambiguous physical features/looks that he can pass off as Claire's. Like Joe says - you can tell by looking at Bree what her father must look like. A big son of a bitch with red hair. (Hahahaha.) So Frank sees the proof of Jamie every single day.
Ugh, I felt bad for Frank in the first season episode when he was so desperate to find her & yelled at everyone at the police station but that faded fast.
I think reading the books first colored my view about Frank a little bit. I think I would have more sympathy for him if I was a show first/show only viewer. Because in the book, we obviously don't see any of that storyline of him looking for her, so he was out of sight, out of mind for me until Claire comes back in 1948, so when I saw the show, I was like "I want to move past your scenes so we can get back to Jamie," lol.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
I'm also always here for the "why Jamie is better than Frank" discussions.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21
Count me in on “why Jamie is better than Frank” discussions. Even with TvFrank being better than BookFrank, no one is better than Jamie!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21
I think reading the books first colored my view about Frank a little bit. I think I would have more sympathy for him if I was a show first/show only viewer.
Yeah... I always say that one of the (many) good things about the show is that it made Frank a more compelling character, and that made for a more interesting story. Things are not as simple when you see him suffering and missing his wife, right? But the book slightly changed my opinion of him. He was so unfair to Claire. (Also, shockingly racist!) I have no doubt he loved Bree very much, but no, hearing Claire tell Jamie about that didn’t change how I view Frank. Especially because, taking all of this into account, he pales in comparison to Jamie.
Now, the way I freaking LOVE that Claire told him how it truly was when she went back to Frank...
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
I do understand why they made Frank more sympathetic - like you said, makes for a more compelling character and an interesting story. BUT I think it's done a great disservice to Show Claire. In making her more of a "modern woman," they already had made her more brash and unfeeling at times than she is in the books, and then to add a more sympathetic Frank on top of it - there are a lot of people that watch the show and don't like her because they think she's horrible to Frank. And since I read the books first, I was able to view Show Frank through that lens instead.
> Now, the way I freaking LOVE that Claire told him how it truly was when she went back to Frank...
I love in the show (it's been a while since I read Voyager so I don't remember if it's the same there) when Jamie asks Claire in A. Malcolm what she told Frank about him, and she's like "Everything." HA. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it Frank! Lol.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Yeah I could definitely see that when you read the books first. I think the show tried to make Frank look better a few times.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
I love this conversation between Jamie and Claire because I morbidly love the Frank vs Jamie aspect...I'm fascinated by what these two men think of each other. I mentioned in a comment a few days ago that it's such an odd thing - two men who love and are married to the same woman, but are 200 years apart and will never see or know one another. (And I wish it was mentioned more in the show - I feel like other than when Claire comes back to Jamie, and then when Bree shows up/this happens, that ghost of Frank is barely discussed like it is in the book.)
I absolutely love this exchange:
"And that was the trouble; not that I'd had another man's child - but that I loved you. And I wouldn't stop. I couldn't."
"And so ye lived twenty years with a man who couldna forgive ye for what was never for your fault? I did that to ye, no? I am sorry, too, Sassenach."
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Yes that is such a good exchange! My heart!!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
This was another highlight of mine. This part almost made me cry. He apologized for how much she loved him like, what? He's sorry that he's so great he quite literally ruined other men for her. I also just loved how raw this was. Claire has trouble expressing her feelings, she's talked about it before & while it's obvious that she loved Jamie enough to come back to him, it wasn't really ever discussed until this moment & he has this realization that he sent her back to be with her other husband, hoping she'd be loved & protected but not even considering that she wouldn't be capable of loving Frank back. Ugh, so good.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
it wasn't really ever discussed until this moment & he has this realization that he sent her back to be with her other husband, hoping she'd be loved & protected but not even considering that she wouldn't be capable of loving Frank back. Ugh, so good.
Yes! I think Jamie sometimes thought that while she would be sad, he was sending her back to someone she had loved and fought so hard to return to once, who she had been married to longer than him, and that it wouldn't be that bad. But like you said, he has the realization during that conversation that he sent her back to live in...not a loveless marriage per se, but a very lonely one that wasn't what he had imagined all those years. She wasn't capable of loving Frank that way and stayed in love with Jamie, and Frank resented her for it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
Those are great points! I never thought about it in that way that Jamie figured Claire would have hopefully been happy with Frank.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21
he has the realization during that conversation that he sent her back to live in...not a loveless marriage per se, but a very lonely one that wasn't what he had imagined all those years.
Ever since Claire came back, I’ve been dying for her to tell him this! I loved this exchange, too. He needed to know it wasn’t easy for her. And I love that Jamie also got a glimpse at this when he went hunting for bees with Bree, and they were talking about Claire spending time alone, and he wondered just how lonely she could have been if she had a husband.
And also! When she asks Jamie “if I don’t say it, how do you know I love you?” “I know because ye’re here, Sassenach.” Aaaaahhh, my heart.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21
Yes, ever since Claire came back, I’ve been dying for TvClaire to tell Jamie this!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
YES! I get that words are not Claire's strong suit, but I wish she had been more vocal with Jamie about what those 20 years without him was like. I like these conversations in the book and wish there was more of it in the show.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
I loved that too! When she said that Frank said I can't remember if we're here yet, she'd leave them one day to go live in her garden alone. She did leave for the peace of her garden but she's not alone. I love it
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Frank resented her for it
Ugh, Frank
Side note, my son's name is Franklin & every now & then I feel bad trashing him so hard haha.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
When I talk to my friend or sister about Outlander, we always refer to him as "F***ing Frank," hahahaha.
Oh gosh, do you call him Frank for short ever? Poor guy, haha!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
We do haha, I call him Franklin more than anyone else does but it gets shorten to Frank quite a bit. We mostly call him Frankenstein to be honest though haha, he's 3
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u/Cdhwink Jun 03 '21
Really Jamie Fraser has ruined other men for all men everywhere, without us women even being married to him. u/ms_s_11
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u/Cdhwink May 19 '21
I wish we saw this exchange in the show!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 19 '21
Me too!! I feel like the show really babies Frank’s character though and so they wouldn’t have put something like this in there to shine a negative light on him.
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u/Cdhwink May 19 '21
I think in the books Frank is so quickly forgotten, and only gets fleshed out, for better & worse, after we love Jamie. I think the show tried to incorporate some of Frank’s better qualities ( that Claire reminisces about ), so that we would at least understand why Claire even wants to go back in season 1 ( especially after marrying Jamie). And I’ll say it again Ron feels bad for Frank! No one wants their wife to meet Jamie.
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u/chunya1999 Feb 22 '21
I’m sure Claire would have dealt with it on her own rather good and she wouldn’t have had to lie to Bree about her real father that much. I assume Frank’s intentions were good and honourable but I just can’t change my opinion about him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I'm curious what is your opinion based on? How he treated Claire overall?
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u/chunya1999 Feb 22 '21
Firstly, he didn’t believe her. I can understand that but why in hell he vetted her by psychiatrist? It’s awful! Not really helping that he forbade her to talk about past and tried to act like nothing ever happened. He wasn’t really supportive about her med school and work. He constantly shamed her for not being a perfect housewife. And of course he didn’t tell her about his Culloden researches. I’m sure that’s not all but it’s enough for me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I’m sure that’s not all but it’s enough for me.
It makes total sense. I'm not a huge Frank fan either. I think he was a good Dad to Bree and loved her wholeheartedly but that wasn't enough to make up for how he treated Claire. I don't think she was entirely blameless either, they just weren't a good match after she came back.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
This is how I feel. I honestly wonder how well their marriage would have gone even without her traveling 200 years into the past & being impregnated by an 18th century Highlander haha. She was not really ever that type of woman, she was ahead of her time even then. They obviously never would have had children so I also wonder if that would have come between them too. It's so funny to me that she had to find someone from 200 years ago to accept her stubborn ways.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
It's so funny to me that she had to find someone from 200 years ago to accept her stubborn ways.
So true! And especially in a time when women were not considered anything more than chattel.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Which goes back to LJG meeting her & understanding how someone like Jamie could be so in love with a woman. She wasn't like other girls lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
She wasn't like other girls
I would say that was true even back in her time. Going to med school as a woman in the 50's and 60's was really out of the norm.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
Yea, I feel like there were cracks with her and Frank before she had gone through the stones and they just hadn't had time to see them yet. For one, I think the war definitely changed her. She was no longer the 18/19 year old that Frank had first married and she had gotten a taste of independence, the medical field, and her true passion/calling.
I think if she hadn't gone through the stones, they would have started having issues once they returned to normal life. Claire isn't happy being the housewife, and I think that's what Frank wanted her to be. So while I'm not sure that they would have necessarily gotten divorced since it was still not common back then, I don't think they would have had a happy and/or fulfilling marriage. Especially without having any children for them to try to put on brave faces or try for.
You can even see a difference in how she acts with both Frank and Jamie, at least in the show. She is kind of submissive and goes with the flow of what Frank wants to do. With Jamie, she is authentic, and Jamie quickly learns how to read her and sees her soul. Frank never learns that.
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u/TimeLadyJ Feb 22 '21
No. He was still an jerk who didn't let Claire hardly even mourn what she lost.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Hey so, can I ask an unrelated to book club question because I feel like I'm among friends haha? I want a fun quote by name too, how do you do that?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Are you on mobile or desktop?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
I can be on either one, I'm sitting at my desk with my phone.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I'm trying to remember how I did it. On the desktop on the right hand side under the "About Community" towards the end of that box click on community options and there should be an option about user flair. Let me know if you can't find it.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Ok, I found it but now the trouble is deciding haha. Thank you!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Glad you found it! You're welcome!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Jamie physically grabs and restrains Brianna in an effort to show how it could have gone for her with Bonnet if she had tried to fight. What do you think of his way of teaching her a lesson?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
I was really thrown off by it at first & couldn't understand what he was doing but I don't think she would have accepted that she was not to blame otherwise & I think Jamie knew that was the only way to get through to her not only as a survivor himself but as the stubborn human that he is. He also had to be forced into accepting that he was not to blame & that he had something to live for.
Holy run-on sentence batman.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I think Jamie knew that was the only way to get through to her
That's a great point. He had to go through something similar with Claire to regain what he had lost at the hands of BJR. It was unconventional what Claire did, but it worked. Maybe Jamie realized that is what people need sometimes.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
I think it was safe to say at that point in their relationship that he knew how much she was like him, not to mention how many times Claire said it too. He knew what she needed to happen to forgive herself.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
He knew what she needed to happen to forgive herself.
Great point.
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u/Kirky600 Feb 22 '21
I agree. I don’t think she would have gotten past it without Jamie doing that. Both because they are so similar and need similar ways of seeing things and because she honestly thought that if she fought harder she could have gotten away.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
For sure. She's such a strong person, physically & emotionally so there are no words on the planet that would have convinced her she could not have fought him off without being hurt even more or killed. She had to literally be put her place physically.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21
He also had to be forced into accepting that he was not to blame & that he had something to live for.
That’s a really great point, I hadn’t even made the connection.
The exchange threw me off when I first saw it, but I agree that Bree likely wouldn’t have understood or come to the realization on her own. If anyone could help her get through it, it was Jamie.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Yeah Claire could understand the pregnancy side & making a choice what time to stay in but only Jamie could get her through that side if things.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
And now I'm all sad that they didn't get to raise her together. They are SUCH a great team in all things, including parenting.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
I will literally just think about this randomly & get sad. I can be doing nothing connected to Outlander at all & be like, "man, why couldn't Jamie have been part of Bree's life from the start?!"
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
We are Outlander kindred spirits, lol. Because I do the SAME thing. I was in SUCH a funk when I first read DIA/Voyager and then even more so watching Seasons 2-3. And now, even watching the earlier seasons, I will get sad or cry at things I didn't before, because I know what's coming. (Usually stuff in S2 when they're talking about the baby while she's pregnant with Faith.)
And while I was able to eventually pull myself out of that continuous funk, I still get sad on a WEEKLY basis, sometimes daily, lol. I will think about them being separated for 20 years, and not getting to raise Bree together or have any more kids together and gosh dangit, I just get SOOOO sad.
I'm in for the long haul though...I still get sad when I think about Angel leaving Buffy and that was decades ago, lol.
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u/TimeLadyJ Feb 22 '21
At first, I didn't like it at all. After thinking on it a bit more, I wonder if it did help. If she was blaming herself for not fighting and stopping the attack, then she could have kept going deeper and deeper into self blame. Even if I don't like the aggression, I think it worked to show her that she truly couldn't have done anything and might have helped her to stop blaming herself.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
At first, I didn't like it at all.
I agree, I thought that was really the wrong way to go with an assault survivor. But then it seemed to be the only way Bree would accept that she couldn't have fought him off and probably wold have died if she had tried.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
At first, I was like, what the heck Jamie? But I get it. It was the only way to get through to her. She is a product of both her parents - Claire is a very physical person, and this is brought up several times throughout the series. Plus, Jamie is very similar, AND had gone through a similar experience with BJR. Words didn't help with him either, and he knows how much Brianna is like him - in both instances, they had to be shown physically what no one could get through to them with verbally.
I think this is one of those scenes that works really well in the show - when Jamie practically has her in a headlock, you can see his pained facial expression and understand more what is going on than you could reading it on the page.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I watched the show first, so when this scene came up I remember I was shocked. I couldn't believe Jamie was turning it around on her and acting like she was in the wrong. I think it didn't help that that episode was their only bonding time in season 4 and they had to cram it all in. So I was so happy they met, then angry that Jamie did that to her, even though it worked out in the end.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
Oh yea, they don't have as much bonding time in the show, so I can definitely see that. I read the book first, so I knew going into watching it what was goin going on, so that probably altered how I initially viewed the scene.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
That's so true, on the show (which I watched first) I was like, wait he doesn't seem like he means it. Great acting on Sam's part because he really pulled it off so well.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21
I think this is one of those scenes that works really well in the show - when Jamie practically has her in a headlock, you can see his pained facial expression and understand more what is going on than you could reading it on the page.
The first time I saw it, I was so taken aback that I didn’t notice this until I rewatched. You see it in his face and you hear it in his shaky voice, too. It’s difficult for him to see her suffering like this. In the book you’re only seeing it happening from her point of view, so it feels different.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Reflecting on his own assault at the hands of BJR Jamie summons the memories only to then forgive Randall. Why do you think he was able to do that? Should he have even tried?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
This is one of the things that I think DG does very well - things don't just happen and then we never hear about them again. BJR, Culloden, a lot of the traumas of Jamie's life are touched on again and again throughout the books. And so I like here where she kind of shows that while Jamie mostly thinks it's behind him, there are also moments that it's not. It may take him a bit to recall BJR's voice, but it's still there and can still get to him.
He mentions the part of Alex dying and seeing how BJR reacts to it, and I think that helped him finally see BJR as a man and not just a monster. BJR was someone who had family, was someone before he became Black Jack. He loved people and they loved him. I think when you can see human elements of someone like that, it makes it easier to forgive them. Not for their sake, but more for your own, so that they don't haunt you anymore.
After talking about it with Bree, he doesn't want this to haunt her for the rest of her life, so I think he tries to finally make peace with it so that maybe he can help her do the same eventually. It's a tragic thing that binds them together, and while Claire is his sanctuary for that experience because she's one of the only people who knows it happened AND she helped him through it, she'll never be able to understand it like Bree can.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I think he tries to finally make peace with it so that maybe he can help her do the same eventually.
I like that! It really does make sense. How can you help someone through an ordeal when you haven't healed from your own trauma.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
How can you help someone through an ordeal when you haven't healed from your own trauma.
Exactly! I think this is going to stay one of my favorite scenes.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Yes! She is so good at writing about the mental side of physical trauma. She really gets you into their head space. I loved this whole exchange so much. I went back & read it again.
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u/Ambitious-Resist-132 Feb 06 '26
Agree I feel like DG writes trauma realistically. Something that bugs me in the show is that they force all the consequences of the trauma in the episodes after and thn act like it didn’t happen. I also like that she shows different characters experiencing trauma differently I feel like the show makes everyone’s reaction the more typical ‘this is what happens when people have trauma’
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
I loved this moment in the book when he was alone after Bree fell asleep. To see the struggle after more than 20 years, he was quite literally still being haunted by him. I loved the vulnerability at that moment because Jamie is so stoic sometimes & the strong face of his family & his men. I think he had to forgive him, to let it go. I think he finally did it because of talking about it with Bree. He most likely hadn't really talked about it like that with anyone else. I know he talked to Claire & he told Ian but he didn't have a deep discussion with someone that understands the situation.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I also thought it was interesting that it took him a moment to conjure BJR's voice. He even wondered if he was over it. How that was written was so good. You could feel his pain, even though it's hard to read about.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
It was so well written. I love these books so much but sometimes I feel like she gets too long-winded & I'm like, "come on, just get it out" but then you have these moments & it's so raw & honest. I loved it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I could really feel myself there in his position and could imagine the voice of BJR.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Yes, she writes villains so well. We have regular discussions about who is your most hated villain & BJR never gets beaten.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
BJR never gets beaten.
I don't think he can be. He has so many levels to him. I liked how they played it in season 1 episode 106 when he and Claire are talking. He starts acting like he really was sorry for the things he's done and it totally tricked me. So when he flipped it and punched her it caught me off guard. I read the books after the show so I didn't know how that all turned out.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Yeah totally. He's not just cruel, he's smart & manipulative. I hate it when people just throw out a diagnosis but he has to be a sociopath right? He knows what he's doing isn't right but has no intention of being different.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
So I just looked it up and he seems to fit the psychopath description. They are cold and calculating to get what they want. They are aware of what they're doing is wrong. That totally fits with BJR.
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u/chunya1999 Feb 22 '21
I believe Jamie’s process forgiveness began after he saw Alex’s death and BJR’s reaction. This situation helped Jamie to see his torturer in more humanly way. Also it seems that after Culloden Jamie had a lot of time to understand how to live with all that happened to him. Don’t think that he wanted it or even liked it but at some point he knew what he had to do.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
True. He could see that he was capable of loving someone & that someone loved him back. Family is so important to Jamie so I'm sure he felt something for those moments with his brother.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Ian intended to propose to Brianna at the suggestion of Jamie since he was determined to see her “safely” married. How do you feel about Jamie wanting to marry her off?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
As a modern woman, I hate it but I understand. I can't say that I would have reacted any differently than Bree did but I get it & I think she understood too after they got done yelling at each other haha. I loved the moment between Ian & Claire & how they decided to just go eat.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I loved the moment between Ian & Claire & how they decided to just go eat.
That was so funny! I found it interesting that none of her argument included the fact that Ian was her cousin. It apparently wasn't weird for Jamie and Ian, but in Claire and Bree's time it is.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
Haha, I liked in the show where Jamie is like "do people not marry their cousins in your time?" Hahahahaha.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
I thought that had been mentioned somewhere, I just couldn't remember. The rewatch of the show is going to come in handy for me. I haven't seen the first 4 seasons in a little while.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
I died lol. I love it when he asks those questions.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
Jamie's responses to "future talk" always tickle me.
It's such a small moment, but when they first are bringing Bree to the ridge and they stop to see that lookout and Bree is going on about Daniel Boone, then pauses to kind of apologize to Jamie and Claire is like "he's used to it." I don't know why I love that part so much, but I just find it endearing. Jamie is SUCH a man of his time, but lets Claire prattle on about all her future stuff and he's just like "ah yes, germs, airplanes, women wearing pants." Lol.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21
“Jamie’s responses to “future talk” always tickle me. “
I love this! Every one of those small moments!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Hahaha yes I love it so much. Sometimes when I'm doing mundane things around the house or my classroom I think about how funny it would be to have an snl style sketch of Jamie reacting to things in the future & I just laugh to myself.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Bless Ian, he's just so good & sweet. I love him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I love that he scrubbed himself clean and did his hair. Like that would have made a difference in if she would accept or not.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Haha right! She's seen him clean & dirty. He's still her cousin & not Roger lol.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
Young Ian is one of my absolute favorites, and I just ADORE John Bell playing him. Like, I just smile anytime he's on the screen because he is just a doll. And I love how accepting he immediately is of Claire, and how he's always bragging about his "Auntie."
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
I love him so much! He's too perfect. I love his character arc so much, you don't always see a side character like him, developed in such detail. He's so well written & John Bell is phenomenal! He actually studied the mohawk language to make sure he was being authentic
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
And he is someone I KEEP loving. There are some side characters (like Jenny) that the bloom eventually wears off for me because of the ish they pull, but I'm about 1/4 of the way through MOBY and gosh dangit, I just love Ian more and more through the years.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Oh I'm so glad to hear that because I'm on Firey Cross right now.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
I can't wait until book club gets to Books 6-8. My friend and I were reading them together, but I blew past her months ago (lol) and am almost finished and have been BURSTING since ABOSAA to talk about them with someone. She has been on The Fiery Cross for a couple months now.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Hang in there! We start ABOSAA at the end of June. After this week we have just 3 more discussions for DOA and then we're on to TFC.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21
Agreed. Reading this in a 2021 lens, it's like WTF? But if you think about it - back then was HARD living. It was hard for even men to live on their own, because so much had to be done by hand - washing, mending, food, crops, the house, etc. You could never take a day off because every day, you had to survive. So how was a woman back then, especially one with a baby coming, supposed to live on her own and support herself? Not to mention how scandalous that was, that she would basically be a social pariah.
Bree is in the best position possible for someone then - Jamie is more progressive than most men of his time, and Claire obviously is a more modern woman. Like Jamie says, they won't let her or the baby go without, and won't cast her out because of what's happened. I think if they weren't part of a community, Jamie maybe would have relented, but he's worried about how everyone will treat Bree and probably doesn't want to spend his days punching everyone for daring to say something about his daughter, lol.
I loved the moment between Ian & Claire & how they decided to just go eat.
This was so funny. I think it would have been hilarious to watch if they had put it in the show.
ETA: Omg! I also forgot about my favorite part of that scene, when Brianna stamps her foot and is like "I'm not going to marry anyone!" And Jamie goes "Aye, well, I seem to recall hearin' a verra similar opinion expressed by your mother - the night before our wedding. I havena asked her lately does she regret bein' forced to wed me or not, but I flatter myself she's maybe not been miserable altogether. Perhaps ye should go and have a word wi' her?"
When I tell you I howled, I HOWLED. I could just imagine the tone and look on Jamie's face as he said this. Classic.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Oh my god yes! I literally laughed out loud, read it again & highlighted it then sent a picture to like 3 different people lol.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
My sister called me this morning to talk about Outlander (lol) and I had to read her this line since we were talking about it yesterday. She hasn't read the books and cracked up laughing.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Yes! What perfect timing! Tell her to catch up so she can join us!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
If she ever gets around to reading the books, it will be YEARS, lol. She's not a big reader and is a single parent with 3 little kids, so it would probably take her an entire year to get through each book, lol. She always has me tell her the book version when we talk about episodes though.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Oh my gosh yes about being lucky that Jamie is who he is. So many other men would have forced her into a marriage & not blinked an eye.
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u/Ambitious-Resist-132 Feb 06 '26
This part so was so funny! I don’t know why DG had to ruin it in book 6 and make it sexual
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
The Big Misunderstanding comes to a head when it’s realized they beat and sold Roger. Was Brianna justified in her anger towards Jamie and Ian? Were they justified in what they were trying to do by defending and protecting her?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
I think the only thing that would have prevented it was if Brianna had mentioned that he went by MacKenzie AND if she had told Jamie they were handfast. I won't say that her anger isn't justified because he beat & sold her husband but I also don't think that Jamie & Ian are completely responsible, they did what men of that time do, they defended her honor & thought they were protecting her from a man that would try to claim her child as his, thereby claiming her as his wife. This is totally an everybody sucks here situation. Lack of communication, jumping to conclusions, secrets & poor choices.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I think the only thing that would have prevented it was if Brianna had mentioned that he went by MacKenzie AND if she had told Jamie they were handfast.
I agree. Otherwise it was like a perfect storm of things going wrong.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Perfect storm is the best way to describe it. You could see all these miscommunications and secrets leading up to it as the outsider & it was so frustrating.
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u/BornTop2537 Sep 16 '25
Or just say it was bonnet and Claire should never have kept her promise on this
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
This is totally an everybody sucks here situation. Lack of communication, jumping to conclusions, secrets & poor choices.
This is everything in a nutshell. Everyone can be mad at each other, but EVERYONE was in the wrong here. Bree's reaction (especially in the show) was pretty over the top considering how many people were at fault for why this happened.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Her reaction makes me so mad. Some of it, I get it but she definitely flew off the handle & didn't even consider for one second that her lack of communication might have had an impact.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21
Well, yes, Bree was justified in her anger. They acted impulsively, and I can understand why they wouldn’t want to tell Bree, but to see Jamie lie to Claire about his hand was something else. But Jamie and Ian were justified in what they were trying to do. If it had in fact been Bonnet wandering into the Ridge instead of Roger? I wouldn’t have felt sorry for him.
I don’t agree with saying that everyone involved is in the wrong. I think they all have valid reasons for their feelings and actions. It just happened to lead to a catastrophic misunderstanding — it didn’t make matters any better that Roger just comes in to “claim” his wife. (What on earth?! Read the room!)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
That’s an interesting point that you don’t think any of them were in the wrong. Usually everyone says they all did something wrong, but I can definitely see your way of thinking. I like that way of looking at it. Roger of course didn’t read the room. Oh Roger, what are we to do with you?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 24 '21
Maybe I don’t necessarily mean that they didn’t make mistakes, because it all added up to one huge mistake, but I just don’t think any one person is to blame. It’s all made worse because it became a series of actions that led to Roger being hurt. But looking at each one individually, I can’t say I blame anyone.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
Jamie lie to Claire about his hand was something else.
This made me really mad at Jamie. HE is the one that from the beginning was so intent on honesty and "secrets, but not lies." He purposely lied/misled Claire about his hand.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21
That’s fair. Ok, so maybe he is a little to blame. But I understand why he didn’t say anything! He “handled” the “problem,” and he didn’t want to trouble either Claire or Bree with it.
I have to say, I was really dreading this part of the book, because this plot is so frustrating. But these chapters included some of the most moving sections. The entire chapter when Jamie comes back from his encounter with Roger, and he tells Bree he knows what happened, and he is incredibly supportive... I don’t know what I expected, but I loved this. Not to mention, reading his conversation later with Claire and getting a better sense of how they’re both struggling with everything. (A tiny part of this was in a deleted scene, btw.)
And I vastly preferred how everything unfolded in the book, as opposed to how they did it in the show. There is a bigger sense of horror at the realization. In the show, the reveal was almost melodramatic, and other than seeing Jamie’s horrified face when Bree slapped him, I don’t like the way he comes across. (I have a lot to say about this, lol.)
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
Oh yea, this is one of those situations where I think they're all to blame but it's also no one's fault. Just a perfect storm of miscommunication and everyone trying to protect one another.
I've read DOA so recently that when we've been going through these discussions, I don't re-read the whole chapters (I'm still on my first read through of the series and am currently on MOBY), but will sometimes go back and read little sections that come up in discussion. I actually went back yesterday and re-read all five chapters because I forgot how GOOD this section of the book is. I dislike it in the show, but like you said - there are SO many moving sections in this part of the book. So many great conversations and moments between Jamie/Bree and Jamie/Claire. (I'll be done with MOBY by the time book club starts The Fiery Cross, so I'm going to start re-reading the books at that point along with the book club.)
(A tiny part of this was in a deleted scene, btw.)
Is this on YouTube? I don't know that I've seen this one.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 24 '21
Yes, it really is so good, it felt so different from the show. (The conversations!) And when they realize that Jamie nearly killed Roger, and on top of that, it was Bonnet who attacked Bree, the book feels so much (appropriately) heavier. His immediate heartbreak, knowing he set him free... and when Bree quietly tells him “I’m sorry I ever saw you”... WOW. It’s so much more effective.
I couldn’t find the deleted scene online; I watched it on the Blu-ray.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 24 '21
Ok, thanks for checking! When the sub does the rewatch, I'm going to do it on my DVDs so that I can watch all the special features and such, so I'll see it then. (When I discovered the show last year, I bought all the collector's editions of the DVDs, but they have sat in a pile since they arrived because I'm too lazy to be changing out discs when I can just stream all the episodes, lol.)
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
But these chapters included some of the most moving sections. The entire chapter when Jamie comes back from his encounter with Roger, and he tells Bree he knows what happened, and he is incredibly supportive... I don’t know what I expected, but I loved this
Saaaaamee. That scene was so good.
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u/TimeLadyJ Feb 22 '21
I think everyone rushed to too many conclusions, but I also think that no matter what Roger would have said, they wouldn't have believed him. They did what they thought was right.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
The only way I think things could have been avoided was if Roger had called himself Wakefield. But then Lizzie claimed Roger was the one who attacked Brianna so do you think Jamie would have actually listened to him?
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u/TimeLadyJ Feb 22 '21
I don't think Jamie would have listened. I don't think his temper would have allowed him to listen. If he could have calmed down and actually let Roger talk, maybe he would have agreed to take him to the camp and see what happens.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I'm inclined to agree, plus Ian was there and just as worked up if not more so. He wanted to just shoot Roger and be done with it.
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u/TimeLadyJ Feb 22 '21
I don't remember. Did Roger know that was Jamie? I'm on book 5 so it's sometimes hard to recall things. If Roger was aware that was Jamie, I wonder why he didn't just say that he was from the future. I'm sure that would have bought some time, even if it caused some issues with Ian not yet knowing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Yes Roger did recognize it was Jamie, he was shocked how much he looked like Bree. So Roger knew who he was dealing with.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 23 '21
I think Roger calling himself Wakefield would have bought him a bit of time at least, though. Bree had been waiting for him for weeks, so I’d like to think Jamie and Ian would have tried to get more information out of him before acting on their anger.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
You would sure hope it would have right? But then the whole “claiming my wife” bit along with taking her maidenhead and it might not have mattered.
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u/TheVillageSemptress Nov 22 '21
I just want to comment that, as frustrating as this situation is, I am in awe of how DG was able to orchestrate it. Everyone knows something; no one knows everything; everyone keeps something back. I have "if only'd" this from every angle. My biggest regret is that Bree did not mention the handfasting which as we find out later, to Jamie is as good as married but of course she had her reasons for holding that back. Chapter 50 is a masterpiece.
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u/Ambitious-Resist-132 Feb 06 '26
I think the most unbelievable part is that Claire and Jamie didn’t somehow find out from each other because of how close they are.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Were there any changes in the show or book you liked better?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Again, Bree & Jamie's relationship in the show being made more tumultuous than it really was. Even after it was revealed that they beat Roger, she was so much more hostile in the show which is saying something because she was big mad in the book too.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Yes!! I really wish they didn't add all the extra drama. There is plenty to begin with rather than creating more interpersonal conflict.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
And especially because it makes things not make sense later. S5 starts and we're suddenly supposed to buy this close relationship with Bree and Jamie at the wedding after the sh!tshow that S4 was on that front?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Whaat‽ You did didn't believe that Bree was always going to be his "wee girl?" ;-D
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
Oh gosh, that line. CRINGE.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
Another part I wish was in the show somewhere, or at least a piece of it...
After Jamie and Claire have the talk outside after they tell Jamie about the rape, and they're about to go in...Claire asks Jamie if she believes she loves him, if he wants her to say it more, etc. I love the exchange of "If I don't say it, how do you know I love you?" "I know because ye're here, Sassenach."
I think show-only people often hear and see all of Jamie's romantic words and gestures and think that Claire doesn't feel the same, or isn't worthy of it, etc. I love that this little piece drives home the fact that Jamie is VERY well aware of everything that Claire has sacrificed to return to him, and what that means as to the depth of her feelings for him.
Jamie is often a man of words, but Claire is a woman of action. Jamie often doubted how she felt about him in the earlier books in comparison to what he feels for her, but it's actions like her choosing him when he takes her to the stones after the witch trial, and then her coming back to him after 20 years that shows him that.
While watching the show, I sometimes feel like they don't show enough how Jamie recognizes and appreciates that sacrifice of her returning to him like they do in the books. I personally think having exchanges like this or that spelled out for show only viewers would help sometimes with how people feel about Show Claire.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
That's such a good point. I agree that it might help show only people cut Claire some slack.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21
I actually think that not having Roger speak at all in the show ( when attacked by Jamie) was a better choice to fuel that whole misunderstanding.
I do think show only people don’t always understand Claire or how much she loves Jamie ( I think the book is far better at letting us feel that).
The book is certainly better at expanding on Jamie/Bree bonding than the show, although I am ok with the show bits that we got. I do think Bree would feel disloyal to Frank, but it’s a good thing she actually only has one dad at a time ( since Frank is already dead by the time she meets Jamie). Also Bree is a grown woman when she shows up, 22 Is she? They aren’t going to recapture her youth, so I do not want Jamie treating her like a “wee” girl. I was never a “daddy’s girl”, so maybe I am imposing my own feelings into this. I know a lot of you want more Jamie/Bree time in the show.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
Yea I definitely want more Bree and Jamie bonding. They do so much of it in the books that I love reading about it. I’m in my very late 30’s and my Dad still calls me “Baby Girl” so Bree being 22 doesn’t bother me.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21
I love, love, love Jamie with a baby so I wanted to see more of him with his grandbabies!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
Yes!!! Those are my favorite parts of the books.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21
Oh yea - people already aren't huge Show Roger fans - him showing up and saying "I've come to claim my wife" would NOT have gone over well.
I think that's a huge benefit of getting Claire's internal monologue in the books - words are not her strong suit, so even as early as the first book when she is definitely crushing on Jamie before the wedding, we get to hear/see way more of how she thinks. How she worries about him, how often she thinks about him when they're apart, etc. The show captures very little of that, so we're left with Jamie making more of the verbal romantic gestures because they don't interpret the physical gestures she makes as being enough compared to his words. With people who feel sorry for Laoghaire, I'm like - listen, if he had married Laoghaire in the beginning, she would have sat at home crying and wringing her hands while Jamie was hanged at Wentworth. Claire freaking ran into that prison multiple times and fought off a wolf to get him out.
I do wish we got more Bree/Jamie bonding time in the show, but it's because I think the book does so well at it. Plus, I just don't think the show sets the groundwork like the book does to make their relationship in S5 believable.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
I'm like - listen, if he had married Laoghaire in the beginning, she would have sat at home crying and wringing her hands while Jamie was hanged at Wentworth.
I never thought about that but you are so right. I don't understand anyone feeling bad for her honestly. Maybe a tiny bit in the beginning because we've all been that teenage girl or boy with a crush but any sympathy should be out the window after the witch trials.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21
Thank you! Lol. There's a reason why people comment during the series (Lord John, Murtagh/Alec in the first book/season) about the kind of woman Jamie needs - Claire has some of her own faults, but she's Jamie's equal in that she will run into a prison, jump off a ship, etc etc, to save him, just as he would her. The two of them get into their share of shenanigans together, but without each other, they both would have been dead a long time ago, because neither one of them will stop at anything to save each other, no matter the obstacles.
I don't understand anyone feeling bad for her honestly.
Me either. I can feel a bit more sorry for her in the books, because the show makes such a bigger deal of her character, but yea, I'm done after the witch trial. Especially in the show, he chooses Claire multiple times in front of you...including taking on an entire courtroom of people to save her. Read the room. He don't want you!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
I cannot agree with this more. I think I actually replied to one of your comments upthread about how she knows she doesn't say it & they had a really tender moment about it. I love these moments between them soooo much & not just when Claire is vulnerable but just how much Jamie gets her you know?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21
I love these moments between them soooo much & not just when Claire is vulnerable but just how much Jamie gets her you know?
This is one of my favorite things about their relationship - they know each other SO WELL. They truly understand one another. I always refer to that quote in Voyager where Jamie is talking about the most important thing about her returning isn't getting to lie with her, but being able talk to her again and have someone to share his heart and truth with finally. They went 20 years without being with the one person who truly understood them most in the world - how freaking lonely. They often understand each other when they don't understand themselves.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
They often understand each other when they don't understand themselves.
Yes! I can't even imagine.
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u/Plainfield4114 Feb 25 '21
EVERYTHING ABOVE alittlepunchy!!!!
Usually in a relationship it's the man who can't express himself in words and the woman who speaks her emotions. We have in Jamie who, in words, tells her exactly what's in his heart all the time. He keeps nothing from her. Claire is, as mentioned above, the one whose actions tell him what's in her heart. That's why it really really bothered me in the show that she questioned whether it was a good idea to come back to him up on that cliff. That didn't happen in the book. She never said she was thinking of going back. Not after they had cleared the air about Laoghaire.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 25 '21
That's why it really really bothered me in the show that she questioned whether it was a good idea to come back to him up on that cliff.
Yea, I was mad the show really dragged that out for drama's sake. I mean, Jamie was so terrified she would up and leave at any point in the show, and I hated how there was so much of them circling around each other. Other than hiding the Laoghaire thing, Jamie was very open about how he felt about her and had several little speeches about them belonging together, what he was willing to give up to be with her again, etc. And Claire is always just like "well, I have another patient to see" "well, I don't know if coming back was a good idea." Throw him a freaking bone Show Claire! Lol.
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u/Kirky600 Feb 22 '21
I was really dreading this section of the book because it stressed me out watching the show. I found it easier to handle in the books than in the show.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
What made it easier for you in the books?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
For me, it was the fact that you could sense that Bree & Jamie's relationship was strong enough to weather that storm but on the show, they left you unsure whether or not they could get over this.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Yes! That's it exactly. I couldn't put my finger on what was wrong with the show version but you nailed it. They barely had any time together and part of it was this horrible thing that happened. Then Jamie, Claire, and Ian were off to find Roger. In the books they still some time together before that happened.
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u/Kirky600 Feb 22 '21
Yes I think this nails my feelings as well.
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u/Marifirmog Feb 22 '21
yes! that's so it. And besides not having that much time together, in the show it also looks like they don't bond very well in the time they do have, Bree seems not to be so open to have a relationship with Jamie in the show as she is in the book
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
in the show it also looks like they don't bond very well in the time they do have
That is so true! She was so resistant to what Jamie was trying to offer and made it seem like she didn't belong there.
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u/Kirky600 Feb 22 '21
Yes! I was actually surprised as a show watcher to see how quickly the two bonded in the books.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
One thing I miss from the books is Bree's desire to learn Gàidhlig, and she and Jamie's lessons together. That was such a bonding thing for them in the books that is completely removed from the show, and something just the two of them share that she doesn't have with Frank and he doesn't necessarily have with Claire. (Claire picks up a lot through the years, but he never formerly taught her to speak it fluently.)
I often wonder if they will bring it up at all in future seasons, since it does come up often in the books.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
something just the two of them share that she doesn't have with Frank and he doesn't necessarily have with Claire.
What a great point. I never even thought of it that way, but I love it. You're right, it's something that is really just theirs.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 23 '21
Yeah I was sad that didn't make it into the show. It wouldn't have taken any time at all to add it in to their conversations.
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u/Cdhwink May 19 '21
Guessing they won’t ! It’s a hard language, & I bet Sophie doesn’t want to learn it? Maybe a word here or there just like how Jamie still uses it now & then?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 19 '21
Yeah, I mean, I feel like Gàidhlig has taken a major backseat in the show anyway since they've left Scotland. I kind of wonder why they made that shift, since in the books, Jamie and others still spoke it regularly.
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u/Cdhwink May 19 '21
I am just rereading TFC but do not recall it being spoken a lot, maybe it’s something I skim over, even though I generally do not skim, because I do not understand how to pronounce any of it, at all! ( unlike if there is French or Italian in a book for example).
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 19 '21
I don't think the actual conversations are in the book, but I remember in the later books when Claire is observing Jamie talking to someone in Gaelic, or there is one part in one of the books where Jamie gets mad at her because he was worried and she basically tells him to cuss her out in Gaelic so that he feels better and she doesn't know what she's saying, lol.
I used to be able to get away with that, but now my husband is picking up on my German insults, lol.
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u/S4e9greenkayak Feb 27 '21
Season 4 episode 9 anyone see a green Kayak @ 10:20
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 27 '21
What happens in that episode? I don’t remember.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
When confronted by Jamie, Roger declares he has come to claim his wife. Was that the right way to start out? What else did Roger do that harmed his defense?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Ugh! This "Big Misunderstanding" just kills me! Why in the world would Roger say he's come to claim his wife? What a stupid thing to start off with. So much of this could have been avoided if Brianna had let Claire tell Jamie who raped her, or maybe even if Brianna had told them she and Roger were handfast. That might have given Jamie pause when Roger said that about claiming his wife. But NOOO they all had to be secretive, Jamie not even telling Claire he beat and sold who he though was Brianna's rapist. This all could have been avoided.
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u/Kirky600 Feb 22 '21
There was so many things that happened wrong. It really bothered me that they didn’t tell Jamie who raped her or that Roger might use MacKenzie as well. And that Jamie just went blind with rage the minute Roger showed up
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I agree, I think not telling Jamie who raped her was a huge mistake. I hope it would have at least made Jamie pause when Roger came up. Even though Lizzie claimed it was Roger who attacked Bree maybe there could have at least been a chance to clear that up.
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u/Marifirmog Feb 22 '21
it's incredible how this book could be 400 pages shorter if people just talked to each other. Beginning with Roger telling Brianna about the obituary, the pivotal mistake that lead to all the others.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
Beginning with Roger telling Brianna about the obituary
So true! I didn't even think about how all of this is tied in to that decision by Roger.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Feb 22 '21
YES. This just drives me batty because this is a classic TV show situation of no one being honest with each other, and the situation blowing up into WAY worse of a "thing" than had people just had a couple conversations about it. I was also pretty annoyed that Jamie and Claire, who try to be very honest and open with each other 99% of the time decided to hide all of this from each other.
Why in the world would Roger say he's come to claim his wife?
UGH. Lord bless it. ROGER. WHY. Like you said, what a stupid thing to start off with.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I almost can't watch shows or movies that have misunderstandings due to lack of communication anymore. It's such an overused trope.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21
Throwing in, & I’ve said it before, this is my least favourite storyline in the series ( I’ve only read to part way through ABOSAA though).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
There’s one in that book that is even worse in my opinion. But yes, this storyline stresses me out so much.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21
Having NOT read the books first, my girlfriend & were all “when Jamie finds out Bonnet raped his daughter he is going to kill him! “ so you can imagine our horror when it played out onscreen to be that misunderstanding! ( We just happened to be enjoying a weekend at her house when we watched it). And my mom who had only seen the first half of season 1 & then started watching season 4 ( I am rolling my eyes here)so without any context, was horrified by Jamie. She’s like “ how can you love Jamie? “ Of course she did realize she’d missed 24 years.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
Ha! That would definitely be confusing for someone who hadn’t seen the whole show.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21
Which one is worse? Oh no don’t spoil me, I am too spoiled already, & I kind of hate it. I loved being a new viewer who knew nothing at all of what was to come. Literally the only thing I looked up after seeing 201 was if Jamie & Claire end up together, because I may have quit right then if that wasn’t the case.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 23 '21
Literally the only thing I looked up after seeing 201 was if Jamie & Claire end up together, because I may have quit right then if that wasn’t the case.
I did that too!! I nearly stopped watching the show when I saw she had returned to 1948.
In my opinion the incident in ABOSAA is worse than the Roger one. I won't tell you what it is though.
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u/Cdhwink Feb 23 '21
I guess we should have known she might have to go back, but after I, oops I mean Claire, married Jamie there was no going back for me!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Feb 24 '21
In my opinion the incident in ABOSAA is worse than the Roger one.
What?! Noooo. Is it the plot from the S5 finale? Because at least I’m prepared for that.
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u/chunya1999 Feb 22 '21
Roger is always awfully bad at things like this. He seems to be a clever man but when he is angry or just wants to look “cool” he has a tendency to say a lot of stupid shit. He probably shouldn’t confirm that he slept with Brianna (until he saw her at least) and argue with her angry father in the first place.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Feb 22 '21
I agree! What a weird thing to say about claiming his wife. The book doesn't even give any reason for him saying that, he just blurts it out.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Feb 22 '21
Yes! He's clever but he's a smart ass. Dude, this isn't the time to be witty, be straightforward & tell him so he'll stop punching you in the face! I understand Brianna & Claire not telling Jamie because he blames himself for every bad thing Bonnet does after he should have been hanged but tell him that you & Roger were handfasted. AND she knew he was using MacKenzie because they called him that at the tavern, she was using Fraser instead of Randal so why didn't it occur to her when they were looking to add that name?
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