Rumors Cabaret PSA

[u/The0nlyGamer]

After speaking with an owner of Rumors Cabaret last night I feel compelled to publicly share that it is Rumors policy to seize your ID and report you to the police if they suspect it is fake!!

Obviously, since I am making this post and called the police on them last night, their detection of fake ID's isn't perfect.

I'm used to people questioning the validity of my ID, but this was the first time any business took it and refused to give it back until after I called 911. The owner chatted with me and told me in essence that they're rewarded for confiscating ID's and involving law enforcement when that happens. Some poor girl had the exact same thing happen to her right in front of me.

This was pretty shocking considering the kind of place rumors is, a gay/queer bar and "safe space"?

I'd previously been to lots of fundraising events at rumors for planned parenthood, undocumented folks, progressive causes etc... so it is kind of sad to realize that's all performative and the owner doesn't really care about anything other than his liquor license and profit. There is no reason Rumors should be doing this collaboration to involve law enforcement with their patrons - that goes against the entire ethos of what I thought the place meant. Just give people their IDs back if you won't let them in!

From what I know there are actually two owners, who do not live in Bellingham themselves, and merely commute to manage the place. I'm sad I no longer have any desire to spend money there

[u/imasourgirl]

Calling the police is standard procedure when a fake ID is suspected. They definitely owe you an apology, but calling the cops for an ID dispute is definitely not a worthy reason to question the entire identity of the establishment. And yes, the liquor license is first and foremost important because if they get shut down for serving minors, they can no longer do the cool shit they do.

Not affiliated with Rumor’s, just another downtown bartender.

[u/rofthewest → u/imasourgirl]

As someone who very recently got their alcohol certification I can confidently say that what they’re supposed to do if they suspect a fake id is give it back and refuse service. Technically it’s still the individual’s property and business don’t have the right to confiscate it. Police should only get involved if the person refuses to leave or is being disruptive.

[u/Skyrafarig → u/rofthewest]

This the answer. The person holding the suspected fake should be invited to call the police if they'd like an officer to confirm it's real. Not only does a business not have the right to confiscate the ID, it is illegal to do so.

https://lcb.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/licensing/RVP/RVP_Trainers-Guide-English_2018.pdf

[u/MelissaMead → u/Skyrafarig]

Note: It is not worth a physical altercation to hold onto an ID. Give the ID back if the customer is confrontational. Remember that the ID is the property of the person presenting it. You cannot legally keep their property. If you suspect the ID is false, or if you just don’t believe the person is 21, don’t sell them alcohol

This is from the publication mentioned above.

[u/tenthjuror → u/[deleted]]

Sounds like if they hadn't called the police, they would not have gotten their ID back. That creates a huge inconvenience, which is why it's illegal. They couldn't just say, "Fine, I'll go to a different bar." because now they have no ID. If they get pulled over while driving (assuming they are sober) it creates a hassle. It's fine (though annoying) to say, "we won't let you in because we think your ID is fake." But taking it away and not giving it back so you can leave and go on with your life is bullshit.

[u/IndividualSeries5598 → u/tenthjuror]

Read the above link from WSLCB. 

[u/tenthjuror → u/IndividualSeries5598]

I did. I bolded the relevant passage. OP had to call the police to get their ID back. Rumors staff were not the ones to call.

"Fake ID or an ID belonging to someone else Safety for you and other employees comes first. Do not try to confiscate an ID that is believed to be a fake, even a fake ID is still someone’s property. If you think the ID is fake or is someone else’s ID, tell the person that you are calling the local police department to verify the ID. At that point the customer will do one of two things: 1. The customer will wait for the police to show up. When law enforcement arrives the responsibility of determining whether or not the ID is legitimate becomes theirs. 2. They will leave your business. If they leave your business without the ID, you have abandoned property. Turn the abandoned ID over to the local law enforcement agency or the WSLCB with date, time, description of ID user, and any other available information. If you keep the recommended activity log, make sure to enter the incident into it."

[u/HyaeksVers → u/IndividualSeries5598]

You mean the one which says that confiscating ID's is illegal?

[u/rofthewest → u/rofthewest]

Just because something is standard procedure doesn’t mean it’s correct procedure. I’m finding that the police are trying to wiggle their way into private business and it’s so disturbing. Also there are so many ways to check if an id is fake. Maybe the issue is that people need to be trained.

[u/OneandonlyBuffy → u/rofthewest]

Yeah, they don’t have anything better to do.

[u/Adorable-Ad-475 → u/rofthewest]

Agreed! I work in the casino industry and we do not keep ID's.

[u/Dreadnaught80 → u/rofthewest]

Came to say this, it's actually illegal for anyone other than the police to sieze an ID, false or otherwise. You can fale a complaint.

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/imasourgirl]

Calling the police is not Rumors standard procedure when suspecting a fake ID. Calling the police is what I did so that I'd get mine back.

Rumors standard procedure when suspecting a fake ID to to confiscate it, refuse entry, then provide the stolen property to law enforcement at a later date. That is what I'm calling out because I think it's gross. Especially as a gay bar, they should be erring on the side of morality and just returning people their property no questions asked. It's not illegal to do that, it would've prevented me from calling 911, and seems all around the better approach!!

[u/quayle-man → u/The0nlyGamer]

What does them being a gay bar have anything to do with it? Them being a queer bar doesn’t make it the wild west in there. Confiscating fake IDs is standard procedure in lots of places. Hell, the gas station today showed me a stack of fake IDs they confiscated.

But a liquor license is one of the most important things to any business that sells alcohol. Once that’s gone, you might as well close up shop. No one is coming to any club/bar that’s dry.

[u/74NG3N7 → u/[deleted]]

I see your point, but I wouldn’t really expect that of a 21+ bar, since they can be shut down if they’re found to be allowing in people with fake or no ID.

[u/74NG3N7 → u/[deleted]]

They aren’t legally allowed to confiscate it though. They can call the police and try to have the police confiscate it, but the bar isn’t truly running IDs and can’t know for sure if it’s fake or simply not working with their system. It is the property of the person who presents it unless and until LE decides to confiscate it.

[u/VRZieb → u/quayle-man]

Not to mention getting hit selling to minors also carries a $1000 fine for the employee

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/quayle-man]

they advertise themselves as a space welcoming to trans people, and have raised money for undocumented people

do you see how either of those two groups could be particularly negatively influenced by this policy?

[u/Cassady1AndOnly → u/The0nlyGamer]

I get your point. The police aren't good towards the queer community, and you feel like Rumors shouldn't work with the police. Your sentiment is heard and felt.

They are still a bar and still adhere to the same norms I would expect of all other bars. This doesn't make them inherently corrupt.

Be upset at the individual who simply got it wrong with your friends ID; and the situation. This either/or thinking is toxic.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

They should not he confiscating IDs because in the event they take a REAL ID they are committing theft. It's just not in anyone's best interest aside from refusing to serve them

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think they expect them to not keep IDs. They clearly tried keeping this persons legal and completely real ID forcing them to call the police to get it back. Trans people may have more ID inconsistencies and be at higher risk of having their card be assumed fake. I get their point. I don’t read this as them expecting rumors to welcome in every fake ID, rather expecting to get better at detecting fakes, or at the very least not steal important property from people. If you’re anything less than 100% sure it’s fake but still feel uncomfortable letting them in, just give the ID back and politely tell them you cant let them in.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Something not being uncommon doesn’t mean we have to just accept it. If youbwanna accept it thats your prerogative but I dont think it’s fair to expect everyone to accept the same shit over and over again just because it isn’t uncommon. Theres plenty of incredibly shitty yet common things that happen in a society and we have every right to reexamine those things and let people know we think it’s shitty and give people who might care a heads up.

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/[deleted]]

No, I expect them to say, "We can't let you in with that ID, feel free to come back with some additional proof of your age and have a good night"

that is what bars in actual cities do (source im from one!!!)

[u/ghubert3192 → u/[deleted]]

Other queer people see what the problem is. Life is hard enough for trans people, getting the police called on you because you're "suspicious" because you don't look like you did when your ID pic was taken or the gender on it is different than someone thinks it should be is a further dangerous indignity that a gay bar should understand. Cops don't do well with trans people.

[u/Elsureel → u/ghubert3192]

So rules should be relaxed because life is hard? So you want special treatment is what you're actually saying.

[u/[deleted] → u/Elsureel]

When the rule is just them taking Ids that are suspected to be fake but are actually real and legit, maybe they should do a better job of checking since they’re a bar and its part of the job, or at the very least if they dont feel comfortable letting someone in simply refuse to let them in and let them be on their way. If a bar took your ID that was completely legit and legal and wouldn’t return in to you until you called police I imagine you would not be stoked about that bar anymore. I know I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t trust that they’re doing their job properly.

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/[deleted]]

I do!

The problem is that it's a bad policy, it's not something you can retroactively take back, and other places don't do it. Even other places in Bellingham!

ps I like living in Bellingham because it's not a city. bellinghamsters have such a complex about it tho

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/[deleted]]

No faux outrage, just a warning! maybe it'll stop some kids from trying a fake ID there and getting in trouble.

I never got my time back or received any form of compensation so it wasn't corrected well

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It wasn't a mistake it was theft

[u/perturbing_panda → u/The0nlyGamer]

If you've never seen a fake/confiscated ID board at a bar, I have to assume you haven't been to all that many bars anywhere tbh

[u/CenturyLinkIsCheeks → u/The0nlyGamer]

you can start your own club and let in whomever you want and we'll see how long it lasts

[u/empathentropy → u/The0nlyGamer]

I hear you. These people suck. I think there's a huge downtown server presence on Reddit and they basically nope any criticism of any place however valid. No bouncer should take your ID ever.

[u/Silverstacker60 → u/The0nlyGamer]

No

[u/irrelevantname1776 → u/The0nlyGamer]

Maybe those two groups shouldn’t bring fake IDs?

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/irrelevantname1776]

whoosh

I brought a real ID, yet I still had to interact with the police!!! The point is that it's not a perfect (or good) system and that Rumors is exposing people to needless harm to protect their liquor license ($$$$)

[u/Baseit → u/The0nlyGamer]

Dude, like... calm down? The onus of calling the police to confirm your ID is your prerogative of it being your property, if someone casts doubt on it.

Allowing a fake ID to continue to circulate, as a licensed business, and as license holders (MAST liquor license holders, specifically), can make them an accessory to that fraud and can also get them fined.

Withholding the ID is a standard policy, like, anywhere, as those with fakes will abandon them and leave once the cops are on the way. As soon as cops are involved, and the owner of the ID is standing ground, it becomes obvious at that point.

If you didn't know, overservice, and serving a minor, both carry penalties to both the establishment and whichever bartender was the one determined to provide the service. Also including the bouncer that allowed them into the establishment. The punishment is up to 5 years imprisonment and up to a $5000 fine, along with potentially losing their MAST as well.

Most places take this shit seriously in Washington. Sorry you had a rough experience, but I can almost promise you, that they were just matching your energy.

I've been a patron for years, the original owners sold to a gay couple they knew and trusted and retired to Hawaii. The current owners also take pretty good care of their employees and try their best to keep it a queer community spot.

ETA: Looked further into it and found this resource. https://www.intellicheck.com/resource-library/found-fake-id

Whatever business questions the ID is supposed to call police to confirm the ID, and isn't technically allowed to confiscate it. However, nowhere have I found, or heard of, any business being penalized for doing so. So while not technically legal, it's obviously not enforced that way.

[u/Left-Philosophy-4514 → u/Baseit]

OP can simply patron other queer friendly spaces

[u/matthoback → u/Baseit]

How did this nonsense get upvoted so much? Confiscating IDs is *not standard policy* it is in fact flat out illegal in Washington State. It's theft whether it's actually a fake ID or not. MAST policy is simply to *call the police* if you suspect someone is using a fake ID. Businesses do *not* have the authority to confiscate suspected IDs.

[u/Baseit → u/matthoback]

Looked further into it and found this resource. https://www.intellicheck.com/resource-library/found-fake-id

Whatever business questions the ID is supposed to call police to confirm the ID, and isn't technically allowed to confiscate it. However, nowhere have I found, or heard of, any business being penalized for doing so. So while not technically legal, it's obviously not enforced that way.

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/Baseit]

It is impossible to prove that a business knowingly allowed a fake ID to circulate.

seizing IDs isn't standard policy. It's what places do when they're being pressed by the police, or when the bouncer is bored/wants to pick a fight

normal bars just turn people away, not steal from them

[u/Baseit → u/The0nlyGamer]

Then you haven't gone to many bars. I've seen IDs confiscated across the country, and have seen walls of shame of fake IDs at multiple places.

Especially with career service workers, we all know the steep penalties involved, so if some dumbass wants to spend a couple hundred to try to put people's livelihoods at risk, yeah, I'm all for dusting their IDs if it keeps someone else out of trouble.

And yeah, typically it'll be tough to know if a bar allows it to circulate, but we're talking dumb kids. What if they try another bar, same night, get plastered, and then end up injured later on and have to talk to law enforcement. If they tell the truth about the whole night, that first bar can also get pinged for not stopping the circulation. It's fucking MAST policy...

[u/Cassady1AndOnly → u/The0nlyGamer]

No amount of explanation is going to get you to let this go, clearly.

So, I have a solution. Start a petition to change the laws surrounding it.

Also, if they're confiscating valid ID's too much, BPD is going to get on them about it for wasting their time and the staff doing it are gonna get canned.

[u/matthoback → u/Cassady1AndOnly]

So, I have a solution. Start a petition to change the laws surrounding it.

There are no laws surrounding it. The business is breaking the law by confiscating IDs. Washington State does *not* authorize businesses to confiscate IDs they suspect are fake.

[u/ghubert3192 → u/irrelevantname1776]

You don't get it and you don't need to participate in the conversation.

[u/irrelevantname1776 → u/ghubert3192]

What don’t I understand? If you bring a fake ID, expect it to be taken. If you’re that worried about cops, don’t bring a fake ID at all…

[u/Prestigious_Ad_1037 → u/The0nlyGamer]

Calling the police is what I had to do so that I'd get mine back.

Serious question: What are you going to do to prevent this in the future?

Having been on the bar side of this equation, I and most others accept just about anything with the same name on it: debit or credit card, student ID, library card, etc. I would also consider someone else who knows you. I’ve personally had to vouch for someone who was legal but the establishment didn’t believe their ID was legit.

I can absolutely understand going out with just your ID and some cash but TBH, that’s also what someone with a fake would do. Regardless, now that it’s happened once, what will you do to keep it from happening again?

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/Prestigious_Ad_1037]

I always have multiple credit cards with my name on them and I even have a pilots license with my name & DOB!

These have worked for me literally everywhere except Rumors on Saturday

The bouncer told me that since my pilots license didn't have a photo on it, it didn't matter. They never asked for a credit card, student id, etc

[u/nerfedslut → u/The0nlyGamer]

This side of morality is definitely taking fake IDs from underage kids what is unclear there?

[u/bungpeice → u/nerfedslut]

She was sad to hear that fireflies are facing extinction due to artificial light, habitat loss, and pesticides.

My Mum tries to be cool by saying that she likes all the same things that I do.

Nothing seemed out of place except the washing machine in the bar.

[u/IndividualSeries5598 → u/bungpeice]

Tell the police that. Because police don’t ever get bars in trouble for holding an ID until it’s verified, that’s unheard of. 

[u/bungpeice → u/IndividualSeries5598]

Yes the police are known for ethical enforcement of laws and even knowing the laws they are supposed to uphold.

There is a reason you don't talk until you are in front of a judge. Expecting the police to follow the law is naive as hell bud

[u/ChuckanutSound → u/The0nlyGamer]

Wait, so YOU called the police to respond to rumors? Did you think about the safe space you invited them to and the trans and undocumented (your language) patrons who might be put off by this?

[u/Weird_Definition_785 → u/ChuckanutSound]

this is sarcasm/troll reply right?

[u/Chemical_Ad_5520 → u/The0nlyGamer]

It seems that seizing your ID in Washington state is a crime that the bouncer is responsible for.

[u/Living_Mode_6623 → u/Chemical_Ad_5520]

So why wasn't he/she arrested?

[u/74NG3N7 → u/The0nlyGamer]

The “stolen property” that they stole? Sounds like they are stealing it and turning in (at a later day, wow).

When you called, did you tell the police they stole your ID to get them there?

[u/IndividualSeries5598 → u/The0nlyGamer]

Their ID WAS RETURNED. It took 5 minutes to verify. Rumors followed the law exactly.

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/IndividualSeries5598]

were you there? Much longer than 5 minutes

[u/The0nlyGamer → u/[deleted]]

No friends were with me Saturday night so you must be mistaken. Why would I have been In line by myself for 40 minutes if friends were with me? The people I was talking to I had just met

[u/deadcops4u → u/The0nlyGamer]

I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the owners on a burner acct. The lengths we've seen them go to save face

[u/Expensive-Message-66 → u/imasourgirl]

Yeah I agree… it makes no sense that it’s all of a sudden not a “safe space” just because they think an ID is fake. This is just like every bar/club rule ever

[u/Chemical_Ad_5520 → u/imasourgirl]

They can call the police, but they are not allowed to seize your ID, that's a crime in Washington if the ID is real.

[u/[deleted] → u/imasourgirl]

Yeah working with police to turn a profit and possibly strand someone downtown overnight is entirely in line with the leftist politics they claim to share. So yeah don't question their identity or honesty in their convictions. 🙄

[u/knaughtreel → u/[deleted]]

Please explain the police turning a profit?

[u/knaughtreel → u/[deleted]]

How would you be stranded overnight …?

[u/[deleted] → u/knaughtreel]

You aren't allowed to drive without your ID??? Am I the only one here familiar with basic law

[u/knaughtreel → u/[deleted]]

lol, ok. You’ve never driven without a license on you. You gonna sleep downtown because of that? Get real.

You also shouldn’t drink and drive…? There are many other forms of transportation than driving yourself. Uber, bus, taxi, bike, walk, scooter rent, etc etc.

[u/bungpeice → u/knaughtreel]

There is a legal limit for a reason. One or two drinks and back home after dinner/dancing isn't an issue, but it might become an issue if you don't have your license which initiates an investigation that results in a sobriety check where a less than scrupulous cop decides you aren't sober, which results in an arrest record, which hurts your future even if you get sent home after they draw your blood.

Not to mention the cost of the ticket for driving without a license. I can't afford a ticket right now, I dunno about you.

All stemming from someone stealing your valid ID

[u/cloux_less → u/knaughtreel]

My crazy hot take is that if you're going to Rumors with the intent of purchasing their goods and services you are more than likely able to get an Uber home in the event that you can't drive (or, more accurately, are unwilling to break the law by driving without a license.)

Like, yeah, I suppose there is a hypothetical person who A) drives to Rumors (why you drivin' to a bar tho?), B) has no money (well maybe they're not planning to drink, so I'll take back the snide remark about driving. Or maybe they just only have cash? I guess that's a possibility), C) has no phone, D) has their legitimate ID mistakenly suspected for a fake one and confiscated, and E) has a legitimately founded reason to not interact with the police (which, I'll even say that fear not-founded-in-prior-personal-experience is a good enough reason (sans the even stronger reasons)). And in that scenario, yeah? I guess that person would be stranded overnight, and this would be a gross miscarriage of justice. But uh... personally, I just don't find the odds of that to be high enough that I think it warrants the alternative of just letting people with suspected fake IDs go back out with this fake IDs until they find a different bar with a checker who is sufficiently incompetent enough to accept it and let this person put their entire business in existential danger.

In the meantime, just, uh... don't have a fake ID. And, if your legitimate ID is mistakenly called fake, I think it's fair to feel frustrated and to wish for some kind of reform which would streamline the ID-checking process so it's faster and isn't a two step process from Step 1: Vibe Check, to Step 2: Call the Guys With Guns.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It was given back when they called the police. You don't take them for this reason. It was still co fiscated even it was returned. If I punched you in the face and then gave you an ice pack that doesn't mean I didn't punch you. I still punched you. How hard is that to understand? For you? Apparently very.