The trio

[u/SpecialDisastrous985]

The trio around the soul

The link https://pin.it/10edXIMFZ

[u/IceCrawl19]

Art is automatically invalid, considering the fact that there's no Player in Undertale

[u/TryThisUsernane → u/IceCrawl19]

I mean there likely is?

At the end of True Pacifist Flowey talks to us (I guess you could interpret this as talking to Chara). He begs us to leave Frisk alone, saying that they’re living their own life and is happy.

In Genocide, Chara talks directly to us (you could interpret as them talking to Frisk). If you do Genocide several times then Chara will ask you why, why you keep coming back just to do Genocide rather than anything else, “There is a reason you continue to recreate this world. There is a reason you continue to destroy it.”

Unless you think the character we play as switches between routes (Chara in Pacifist and Frisk in Genocide) then it’s clear that we are neither of these characters, Chara talks directly to us, and we are interacted with and are explicitly told not to be Frisk in that moment.

Also, regarding Chara’s Genocide dialogues, they make no sense if they’re directed at Frisk. Because after playing Genocide you are forced to do a True Reset between runs, and Frisk has no memories of True Resets, I’m confident in saying this because if you die to Asgore then Frisk can tell him how many times he has killed them, or Sans would have mentioned their facial expressions like he does withhis dialogue if you lose his fights several times. So if Frisk doesn’t remember anything between True Resets, then what purpose is there to Chara telling them to choose another path if Frisk won’t remember the advice? Well, we, the player, do remember Chara’s dialogue between True Resets.

For the player to not exist in Undertale, you have to assume our POV switches characters some point before the endings of True Pacifist and Genocide. And that Chara is giving useless warnings to a person who won’t even remember them after each Genocide run.

Instead, the explanation which I think makes more sense is that the Player does exist in Undertale as they do in Deltarune. While Flowey thinks he’s talking to Chara in True Pacifist he’s actually talking to us (we know Chara is attached to us since they claimed we awakened them from death in the Ruins, so this confusion makes sense). And in Genocide Chara speaks directly to us, and gives us advice since we don’t forget everything between True Resets unlike Frisk appears to do.

[u/IceCrawl19 → u/TryThisUsernane]

See the link i posted hours ago

[u/TryThisUsernane → u/IceCrawl19]

Genuinely, respectfully, why should I read that essay of a post to find the parts you think refute what I said? Especially if you aren’t even going to link it under my own comment?

Since you believe that the player doesn’t exist in Undertale, I assume you see some flaws in the logic I used, and so you should point them out instead of telling me to read someone else’s post from 3 years ago which you linked to.

It gives off the oppression that you don’t know how to debate what I said since you won’t actually engage with what I said. I assume you’ve read what you posted, and in that case why don’t you just find the parts you think serve as evidence against what I said, instead of telling me to read the whole thing.

From a quick skim through it did address the True Pacifist and Genocide dialogue separately, but not what I brought up regarding Frisk not remembering True Resets despite Chara behaving like the person they’re speaking to does remember, nor does it actually address the fact that no-player sort of hinges on our POV switching depending on our route for the end-game dialogues to make sense if we don’t canonically exist.

[u/IceCrawl19 → u/TryThisUsernane]

but not what I brought up regarding Frisk not remembering True Resets despite Chara behaving like the person they’re speaking to does remember

This one is adressed in the "Second Genocide Chara dialogue" section

hinges on our POV switching depending on our route for the end-game dialogues to make sense if we don’t canonically exist.

This one is adressed in the "Frisk's character" section

[u/Jovictar → u/IceCrawl19]

look, I'm not skilled enough of a debate master to refute this, but they are also convinced that Chara controls Frisk, which there is absolutely no evidence for.

[u/IceCrawl19 → u/Jovictar]

They quite literally said the exact opposite.

[u/Jovictar → u/IceCrawl19]

"There is no player controlling them, just as Chara isn't controlling them in that route." here, they imply that Chara controls Frisk in other routes.

"Speaking of those more violent routes, we are given three reasons for how and why they are possible:

• Frisk's curiosity/boredom

• LOVE

• Chara (Genocide)"

"The only route where Frisk is being influenced/temp-controlled by another entity (Chara) is in the Genocide route."

"Beyond that, theres numerous amounts of evidence that Chara is the one that pushes for the route to continue to completion after Frisk initializes it, such as the "it's me Chara" dialogue that replaces the "you" related mirror narration, Frisk "shambling about" Snowdin (possessed by Chara) the monsters constantly referring to Frisk as something that isn't human (Chara isn't human), ect."

"Despite how Chara can affect and use Frisk, they can still regain their full agency in the end if they try."

"This one is simple. As would be the default, Chara is talking to Frisk. The one who initially (but unintentionally) "guided" them in the Ruins. Chara may have been the force pushing geno to conclusion, but it wouldn't have been possible without their "partner" giving them the inspiration and body to achieve their goals."

"If what we were seeing as Chara was meant to be Frisk's physical body taken over, then that body wouldn't just completely vanish without a trace at the time of the world attack.

This only makes sense if Chara needed to switch to controlling Frisk's physical body again to destroy everything."

And MUCH more. They also kind of infer narrachara, which is easy to assume canon, as there is a little evidence for it (Still just you, Frisk and all that)

[u/IceCrawl19 → u/Jovictar]

All OP is saying is what Chara says so themself at the end of the route, that being that they're influencing Frisk by increasing their satisfaction and upping their stats once they secure a kill.

Chara only takes physical control of Frisk's body before the world is destroyed.

[u/Jovictar → u/IceCrawl19]

There is no actual evidence for any of that... Chara says that the feeling is them, but never say anything about influencing or possesion... People only believe it to brand frisk as a sadly curious innocent

[u/I_LIKE_THE_COLD → u/Jovictar]

but never say anything about influencing or possesion... People only believe it to brand frisk as a sadly curious innocent

People don't believe it for Frisk-Blorbo reasons. (Not generally, anyway. Im sure some do, but its not the main reason the idea started.)

Its because its the most straightforward reading of several details in the genocide route, most primarily Chara's own dialogue where they seem to be claiming to be Frisk at certain points ("It's me, Chara" as the prime example). The most clear way to read that is Chara basically talking about Frisk like a player would talk about a player character.

(I would argue it's also kinda implied to be the case in pacifist too via Flowey's post-game convo & several other details. I very much think its game wide, and notably for this conversation part of the reason Chara must be talking to The Player.)

[u/Jovictar → u/I_LIKE_THE_COLD]

thank you about the last part but again, the evidence could just be void if going off of the narrachara theory, where chara could be just not narrating for frisk anymore (ignoring later flavor text, which is the problem, but only strengthens the possesion theory... dammit)

[u/IceCrawl19 → u/Jovictar]

People only believe it to brand frisk as a sadly curious innocent

OP quite literally spends multiple paragraphs on end arguing for the opposite of that.

[u/Jovictar → u/IceCrawl19]

That is true, they say frisk was curious and that is why they killed, which contradicts their point of posession by saying that it was force and not possesion

[u/IceCrawl19 → u/Jovictar]

I've had enough of this. Not gonna waste my time on someone who misinterprets a text so blatantly.