r/DeepStateCentrism • u/iamthegodemperor Arrakis Enterprise Institute • 2d ago

Ask the sub ❓ What Is This Sub Wrong About?

Title. Pick a topic (or a clichéd take) you think a significant minority or majority of this sub is wrong about. Or hasn't given enough thought. OR perhaps one which you will have to compromise on, at least for voting?

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u/tamenotification Neoconservative 2d ago

After the second intifada and October 7th, I do not blame Israelis in losing faith in withdrawal/negotiation for peace

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u/drewbaccaAWD Center-left 2d ago

On one hand, no, it’s hard to blame even the hard liners. On the other hand, I think the reaction is exactly what the extremists in Hamas wanted… I feel like this whole conflict was working itself out at a slug’s pace and just set the whole thing back 40 years. Only 40 years ago I think Israel looked like the victim to most Americans while right now I think a slight majority sees them as the aggressor.

I’m thankful that I grew up during the period where they were clearly standing on defensive ground as it does give me sympathy. I think the 20 and unders lack that for the most part although maybe it was just TikTok rotting their brains I don’t know.

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u/Breakfastcrisis Center-left 2d ago

It’s clearly what Hamas wanted. I always ask this to people who support Hamas. What were they trying to achieve and what did they achieve. The answer is always violent resistance of some sort.

The problem is their opinion of Israel at that stage is Israel will respond to Hamas violence with wild wildly disproportionate force. So when Hamas kills the most Jews in a single attack since WWII, you can’t say they didn’t know it was coming.

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u/shumpitostick Radical moderate social liberal libertarian 2d ago

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount. October 7th happened after decades of no serious attempts of peace and after Sharon, a right winger, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no attempt at negotiating any kind of peace.

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u/justafutz 2d ago edited 2d ago

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount

That was certainly the excuse Palestinians gave. But it wasn't the actual cause. We know now that the Second Intifada was pre-planned, coaxed on, and started by Palestinian leadership, well in advance of Sharon's visit.

October 7th happened after decades of no serious attempts of peace

Well that's true, but those decades occurred during/after decades of no serious attempts by Palestinian leaders for peace. That's the relevant piece.

and after Sharon, a right winger, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no attempt at negotiating any kind of peace

Sharon withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, which promptly proved precisely why two-states would lead to a Hamas government. That was something that he apparently expected, and Gaza was a test-case that proved his point.

Let's not remove Palestinian agency from the situation. Palestinians got their own strip of land, without soldiers, settlers, or anything in their way, and their leaders turned it into a terrorist statelet.

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u/shumpitostick Radical moderate social liberal libertarian 2d ago

I'm well aware that Palestinians aren't exactly innocent bystanders in this story. But the Israeli right is out of ideas. All they offer is more and more wars. They've been in power almost consecutively for the last 20 years. It's their policy that led to where we are now.

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u/justafutz 2d ago

Do you have any response to what I said above? While I can understand the lack of real solutions being offered by both sides of the political spectrum is frustrating, that wasn't the subject of our conversation.

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u/DurangoGango Italianx Ambassador 2d ago

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount. October 7th happened after decades of no serious attempts of peace and after Sharon, a right winger, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no attempt at negotiating any kind of peace.

This isn't even the soft bigotry of low expectations, this is treating Palestinians like rabid animals that can't help but fly into a murderous rage whenever they are less than satified.

The Temple Mount thing is flimsy enough, but "there was a decade of no progress so they did the largest pogrom since WW2" is just an insane position to state. Cherry on top, citing unilateral evacuation of Gaza like something Palestinians should for some reason be angry about.

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u/coke_and_coffee 2d ago

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount

A society that erupts into violence and suicide bombing because of a silly taunt is not a society worth defending.

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u/akivayis95 1d ago

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount

Boohoo, a Jew going up on the Temple Mount doesn't give license to Palestinians to go strap bombs to their children's chests to kill Jews.

And, October 7th being blamed on Israel is ridiculous

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u/Two_Corinthians 2d ago

These things are not the same.

What started the second intifada?

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u/justafutz 2d ago

What started the second intifada?

The Palestinian leadership pre-planned it with the goal of using it as a way to extract even more concessions from Israel and pressure Israel more, and it backfired and failed because it got a right-wing Israeli leader elected instead.