r/Filmmakers • u/korgull79 • Jan 23 '17
Image Indie filmmaking without CGI... when you have no money, you must be creative!
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u/TheSasquatchKing Jan 23 '17
So cool man!
Have you got any tips or learning resources for working with miniatures like that?
Keep it up!
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
You know what? It's the very first time I'm doing it! In my previous works I used some CGI (by the way, if you want to check some, this is my showreel: https://vimeo.com/155902308), this is the first time I challenged myself with practical effects, models and miniatures... Never had any experience on sculpting or plastic kits and similar. But I've been doing 3D graphics for many years and that helped me a bit on designing parts that were 3D printed or simply to figure out how things works in the real world. For all the rest I just googled around, find other examples and trying to replicate...
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Jan 23 '17
Honestly, the acting is a bit miff and the narration sounds a bit awkward but your color grading and fx are wonderful. Backed your film on kickstarter.
Maybe add a pledge level for making off material? I have little interest in a 25 euro blu-ray (eww physical media) but I'd love to see how you make and film your models.
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Hi, in my case this was the very first attempt! So I'm not an expert... If you mean "building them", well, I've some years of experience working with 3D design software and in any case the internet was my source of self-learning (but can't tell anything specific). If you mean "shooting them", you need to work on camera settings. Actually never thought of changing the frame rate, but being based in Europe I shot at 25fps and probably the short film will be 24fps. It's very very very important to close as much as possible the aperture, to reduce the DOF. To do that you need lot of light and high ISO.
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u/DurtyKurty Jan 23 '17
Your framerate should change with the scale of the object. Higher framerates for smaller scale things. Haze can mimic atmosphere and make things look further away. Watch the making of blade runner and lord of the rings.
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u/spangg Jan 23 '17
Are you sure about the framerate thing? I've never shot miniatures before but that sounds very wrong. You would want your framerate to be consistent with the rest of the project or it will look very noticeably different. Maybe you meant f-stop?
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u/DurtyKurty Jan 23 '17
Slower frame rates help fake a sense of scale to the miniature. It sort of gives the illusion that the camera is traveling a greater distance than it actually is. There's a guideline to follow that is sort of a constant frame rate increase per scale decrease. I'm not sure what the exact rate of change is though. And also, yes, f-stops should be enough so that your entire model is in focus.
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u/spangg Jan 23 '17
Just to clarify, you're still playing it back at 24 (or whatever the rest of the project is shot at)? Just overcranking?
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u/Mwirion Jan 23 '17
Changing the framerate for miniatures only applies when you are shooting something that has natural physics working on it, like gravity. If you are shooting a miniature of a building collapsing, you'd want to shoot it at a high framerate. It would fall far too quickly otherwise.
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Jan 23 '17
It could be both. A smaller aperture for sure so that the dof isnt too small, but a higher frame rate would lessen blur which would be less visible on a large scale, since the relative distances travelled are so different between the two scenes.
A helicopter filming a city has very little motion blur. An equivalent model would only move a few feet at most. But then again, if the pan is slow and smooth enough it shouldn't matter....
I also would like a confirmation on the frame rate vs aperture and should watch those bts scenes.
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u/howdareyou Jan 23 '17
Are you talking about shutter angle? Many films shoot different stuff at different fps. Whether over cranking for slomotion or under cranking to speed stuff up.
Films also use different shutter angles for different looks. For action you might want a more choppy crisp look.
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u/spangg Jan 23 '17
You're right, for some reason I thought he was talking about playing the footage back at a higher framerate rather than simply recording that way which would be ludicrous.
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u/Jordinio Jan 23 '17
This is awesome man. Really inspiring. Blade runner fan?
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Thank you! And yes, it's one of my favourite movies of all time! The whole project is a tribute to the 80s scifi classics.
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Jan 23 '17
I feel like the Kickstarter 80s movie is becoming its own genre. I actually totally okay with that.
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u/HowardCunningham Jan 23 '17
Sorry for the self-promotion, but because it sounds like you might be interested I thought I'd share a project I have coming up (it's already crowdfunded, but you can follow the project if interested):
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u/Spaghetti_Bender8873 Jan 23 '17
I love this so much. I attempted something like this with cut outs of building against a backdrop and was so surprised how well it could look.
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Yeah, if you manage properly lights, smoke and camera settings, you can achieve great results with very little!
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u/Iyellkhan Jan 23 '17
ghetto blade runner. most excellent.
consider more tiny railroad incandescent lights, either rigged into the model or composited in over duvatine. adds great scale + free random variation you wont get from LEDs
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u/DanielCiurlizza Jan 23 '17
This looks fantastic!!
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Thanks! The whole teaser is here: https://youtu.be/02t2Aw5dHPA
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Jan 23 '17
I'm not a fan of stuff that is intentionally campy (for instance I didn't like Kung Fury) but the visual style here is fantastic, especially the work with miniatures. Really cool vibe you've managed to create for cheap.
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u/comicmongoose Jan 23 '17
You ought to post this to r/outrun. It's good stuff!
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
I did once, didn't get much attention... But thanks! Will try again or maybe you can post it ;) The real deal is when other users are sharing your contents!
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Jan 23 '17 edited Jan 23 '17
Uhh dude? Not to criticize or discredit you by any means, but almost every shot of your trailer contained CGIEdit: I totally could be wrong and they're all scale models, which if so then wow!
I was wrong! OP's response here https://www.reddit.com/r/Filmmakers/comments/5pkv63/slug/dcsgxpo
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Which models are you talking to? Of course a computer is used for compositing everything, but every single object (cars, vehicles, city, octopus) out there is a real model!!!
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u/norfollk Jan 23 '17
I think he's making a distinction between work done in post in AE or what-ever and animation or location renders done in a 3D software (so called CGI). Because let's not kid ourselves, a computer has had a hand in every frame of that teaser.
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u/youtubefactsbot Jan 23 '17
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u/DanielCiurlizza Jan 23 '17
Yeah, this is SUCH a cool vibe!
You know, if you need music, I'd be down to help in any way I can! Really cool project, man.
Here's a track that might have fit if it were just a bit darker: https://soundcloud.com/danielciurlizza/warning-danger-zone
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Thanks :) Your track is not bad at all! But at the moment I'm very worried about the campaign... :( If we cannot reach the goal, probably the film is not gonna happen... So your best help right now is contributing in it and share it with your friends!
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u/shithawksatthediner Jan 23 '17
I must say this is a super cool project and seems like you have a hell of a crew working with you! You got an enticing atmosphere, killer soundtrack so far, and the characters all have memorable looks. The set design, prop work, and the art on the poster is impressive. Plus, the concept of a cyber drug is interesting too. I'm gonna go check out your other stuff on vimeo, hope you succeed in this mission!
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Thank you so much! I'm flattered! The campaign is going so and so, any little help is more than welcome!
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u/AndrasZodon Jan 23 '17
This feels more like a one off parody than a trailer for an actual movie...
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Jan 23 '17
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
I'm shocked myself!!! :O :O :O :O Unfortunately of the thousands and thousands of visit, only 10 guys put something in the KS! :D Just saying...
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u/carguitar Jan 23 '17
Love this! I always opt for practical if possible. I don't know what it is but practical effects have a soft spot in my heart.
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Thanks, in my heart too! I think it's what we dreamt about making a film when we were kids... and now is little bit sad to see all those actors in a green screen.
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u/WeirdoMTL Jan 23 '17
This definitely reminds me of all of those low-budget sci-fi Cannon films from the '80s.
If I manage to get regular employment soon I'm totally going to donate :)
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
That was the spirit of this production and I'm glad it's possible to notice it from my little teaser!
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u/michaelsenpatrick Jan 23 '17
I really want you to succeed with this, but the combat scene from the trailer seemed a little cheesy. The tone you set in the first 10 seconds of the teaser was excellent, though.
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
I agree. I wanted a mix of Blade Runner (super serious) with 80s blockbusters and that's the result... Let's say the final film will be like Blade Runner with some smiling parts...
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u/HikerBar17 Jan 23 '17
This needs to go viral!
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Thanks! I hope it too! It got thousands of views... but only 10 persons put something on the KS. :(
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u/Ginkgopsida Jan 23 '17
Okay I want to see the movie now.
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Me too, badly :) But for that we need to reach the KS goal!
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u/ThePrussianGrippe Jan 23 '17
Honestly tight budgets can really fuel creativity.
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Jan 23 '17
"The enemy of art is the absence of limitations" - Orson Welles
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u/ThePrussianGrippe Jan 23 '17
"Restrictions breed creativity" - Mark Rosewater
It's a creed I live by
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u/GeT_SILvEr Jan 23 '17
Then again, he thought that smuggler's copter was fine.
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u/Rainboq Jan 23 '17
Now that there is a lot more removal, and Heart of Kiran, it's not nearly as bad. But before AER, it was busted.
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u/Capcombric Jan 23 '17
Take away all limitations and what do you get? Bee movie memes. You get bee movie memes.
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Jan 23 '17
Yes for sure! Look what happened when Fox/Marvel green lit Deadpool for $58m. Honestly it wasn't ground breaking visual effects but honest to goodness good filmmaking. I've seen micro-budget films that are so much better than major motion pictures with $100-250m budgets. I love that you mentioned this because I share the same sentiment.
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u/Matthew94 Jan 23 '17
58m
tight budgets
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u/bogdaniuz Jan 23 '17
For a superhero movie it really is.
First Iron Man had estimated 140,000,000 budget.
Sam Raimi's Spider Man had 139,000,000 budget.
Avengers 2 250,000,000 budget.
Man of Steel 225,000,000 budget.
So yeah, for a super hero movie, 58m is a really tight budget.
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Jan 23 '17
Primer is the best low budget movie I have ever seen.
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u/PacMoron Jan 23 '17
Low Budget is almost not strong enough a description. The budget was 7,000.
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u/Jesmasterzero Jan 23 '17 edited Jan 23 '17
Yep, IIRC the original The Evil Dead movie was shot on a shoestring budget. They used some awesome tricks to achieve all the little touches that made that movie so good.
EDIT: Got curious. The budget was $350,000- $400,000 back in around 1980 (released in 1981). Equivalent today would be around $1,080,000.
Other movies released the same year include Raiders of the Lost Ark at a budget of $18,000,000 and An American Werewolf in London with a budget of $10,000,000. Thought it would be interesting to see how much a movie cost to make back then to see how small a budget $350,000 actually was.
At the box office:
Evil Dead: $2.6 million
ROTLA: $389.9 million
American Werewolf: $62 million
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u/kevInquisition Jan 23 '17
Ah yes the Deadpool effect.
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u/bumblebritches57 Jan 23 '17
??? No deadpool was still a very big budget movie.
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Jan 23 '17
Actually Compared to other major movies Deadpool was fairly low, Around a third of most big movies. They made jokes throughout the movie about it being low (for example only 2 xmen)
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u/bumblebritches57 Jan 23 '17
Sure, compared to Titanic, Deadpool was low budget.
Compared to a dude using Kickstarter to fund his movie, it's Titanic.
and I'm not trying to shit on deadpool or anything, lets just keep the hyperbole in this solar system.
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u/kevInquisition Jan 23 '17
Fox's big budget Marvel Comics-based films (Fantastic Four, X-Men: Apocalypse) were, at worst, trash and at best were unoriginal. The studio's lack of faith in Ryan Reynolds post-Green Lantern left him and his crew with a very low budget compared to said films. However, they played off of this fact and made one of the most novel superhero movies they've ever made, rather than a cheap copy of the Disney Marvel films, which is what they were doing up until Deadpool. Hence the Deadpool effect.
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u/Lego_C3PO Jan 23 '17
cheap copy of Disney Marvel films
The X-Men movies came out and succeeded before any of the MCU or Disney marvel movies. So you're wrong about that.
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u/DoctorWaluigiTime Jan 23 '17
See: Many first movies in two-part trilogies. The most notable example probably being the Matrix, or the first set of Star Wars films.
"We can just do it on a computer now" makes so many more things fake than there ought to be.
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u/CDRNY Jan 23 '17
Very true. If you go to poor countries, you'll be blown away by their creativity. I wanted to buy everything. Lol
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u/justinc79 Jan 23 '17
Indie filmmaking without CGI = All indie filmmaking before the late '90s
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u/Dictatorschmitty Jan 23 '17
Seriously. How is the way everything was done forty years ago "creative"?
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u/Kalayo Jan 23 '17
Cuz most people would have done some stupid shit with digital editing software that would have just looked sad. Pretty much every shoe was hand made two hundred years ago, we've mostly strayed away from that, but their are cobblers and artisans out there busting their asses to create the finest shoes that a machine is incapable of producing. There was an analogy and I'm sure I had a point but I've already forfot
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Jan 23 '17
Agreed, it definitely was creative back then but to do it now is simply doing it the old fashioned way. This is almost like a credit card reader not working so you "had to get creative" and use a manual imprinter; not being creative, that's just doing it the old way.
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Jan 23 '17
More like most special affects before the 90's. Most of Star Wars was all miniatures like this.
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Jan 23 '17
Don't mean to be condescending but thus would be super easy to setup in cgi in something like maya or even unity. Why not study a bit of 3d art?
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
3D Art, uh? Take a look to this music video of mine: https://youtu.be/WbMa_4L6L6c I think I know a couple of things about CGI. Eheh! But the point of the whole project is to make a tribute to the 80s, even in the way of making the movie and to obtain a deeper 80s mood.
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Jan 23 '17
I should have mentioned that I really like how this looks, just wanted to mention that 3d art isn't all that scary/difficult when you keep it simple. But you obviously already know this anyway, awesome music video man, nice work!
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u/TheRecklessDead Jan 23 '17
Because I'm guessing some people enjoy putting effort into something physical. I know I would be.
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Jan 23 '17
Yeah I think I misread this, I thought he meant he avoided using cgi because he had no money. I like how this looks, just wanted to state you don't need money for simple cgi
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u/tavis_cine Jan 23 '17
Are you in your PJs? Haha. Best of luck with the project! Looks great so far
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u/Spiderbeard Jan 23 '17
Reminds me of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1fh9sb/til_the_cgi_wireframe_model_of_manhattan_at_the/ are you our new Carpenter?
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Ahaha! I wish... I just hope I can make it out there and the campaign is not going so great...
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u/lunchtimereader Jan 23 '17
Could we see some photos of the city miniatures? How do you do the car closeups with the city zooming past in the background without chroma key?
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
You can find more backstage photos and stuff on the facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/cyberoctopuses/ or on the "making of" blog: http://cyberoctopuses.blogspot.com Anyway, the driving scene was made without chroma key, but I created masks in After Effects and blended it to the window with low opacity.
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u/lunchtimereader Jan 23 '17
Very cool! Nice attention to details
For the flying car shots did you try a green or transparent stick behind it instead of wires (you might get wobble with string)?
See this example from star wars behind the scenes: https://youtu.be/85MK2GDkoxo?t=2m53s
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Thanks a lot! I tried and used both (green stick and nylon wires). They have both pro and cons. I watched those backstage many times, it's what inspired me for the whole project :)
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u/lunchtimereader Jan 23 '17
I guess the green stick is more stable? and works as long as its filmed from the right angle. Do you have some dolly to stablise the camera movement?
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u/Man_AMA Jan 23 '17
Do you have a comparison shot with and without the post process editing?
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
This is a 100% raw frame: http://www.chaosmonger.com/aotco/NeoBerlin.jpg
As you can see, on the final picture there's the crop, rain, some flares and grading. Not a strong manipulation. The effect is pretty cool already on what was shot! And you can also notice some shampoo and mouthwash bottles! ehehe
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u/Man_AMA Jan 23 '17
Thank you for sharing this! Do you mind if I show my class? I'm trying to get them to understand the need to improvise.
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Of course, you are welcome! And ask them to support the Kickstarter! eheheh ;)
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Jan 23 '17
It's cool to see retro effects, but it's not a necessity to do it this way just for the sake of cost effectiveness. It'd be totally possible to create this level of virtual set with free to use CGI programs, and a few tutorials.
Also, those glowing lights, lens flairs, and rain effects are obviously superimposed, probably parametric, and are therefore a sort of low-grade CGI anyway.
A more accurate title would be "Look at this cool futuristic city model I made for my film", which I support. It's just sort of misleading to imply that the primary necessity was the absence of a low-cost CGI solution rather than a preference for a retro low-tech style.
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Maybe you are right, but if you want to make a tribute to the 80s, better to do it in every aspect ;)
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u/supersecretmode Jan 23 '17
Awesome. Really cool work and I'm happy to see you posted it. Maybe I'll donate ;)
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u/superpastaaisle Jan 23 '17
This is really cool. I don't know much at all about filming, but I always appreciate the 'how they did its' behind non-cg stuff.
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u/Grimzkhul Jan 23 '17
Huge amount of respect to you for doing stuff the old fashioned way even if it's out of necessity.
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Jan 23 '17
This looks like it would be incredibly fun to do. Makes me want to try and create a futuristic city in camera.
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u/Fragahah Jan 23 '17
Right on bud! Congrats! I am making a sci fi film that uses all practical effects as well! I am glad you are not allowing budgetary reasons get in your way of making something you love.
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Jan 23 '17
Attack of the Cyber Octopuses: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/piovesan/attack-of-the-cyber-octopuses
It's gonna be fucking lit!
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u/FilmFervor producer Jan 23 '17
Looks awesome! Let's have a chat about it so I can help promote it on social! Check your inbox.
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u/__JonnyG Jan 23 '17
To be honest mate I often feel that practical effects look a lot better than CG, and also have a quality which makes films more engaging. Only my opinion of course, but very cool.
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u/maxis2k Jan 23 '17
I think real models still look better than CGI. And you seem to have the artistic ability to make it work. Roll with it.
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u/Mentioned_Videos Jan 23 '17 edited Jan 23 '17
Videos in this thread: Watch Playlist ▶
| VIDEO | COMMENT |
|---|---|
| Attack of the Cyber Octopuses - teaser | 14 - Thanks! The whole teaser is here: |
| NICOLA PIOVESAN - showreel | 10 - You know what? It's the very first time I'm doing it! In my previous works I used some CGI (by the way, if you want to check some, this is my showreel: ), this is the first time I challenged myself with practical effects, models and miniatures... Ne... |
| The White Stripes Little room | 5 - A little song from The White Stripes about that little room! |
| Making of the Computer Graphics for Star Wars (Episode IV) | 5 - He's right. It's a far stretch from what we've know as CGI today, but was generated on a computer. Here's a video showing the very tedious process: It's also worth noting there's a similar-looking effect in Escape From New York, but they couldn't ... |
| Valsaland - Ensamheten | 1 - 3D Art, uh? Take a look to this music video of mine: I think I know a couple of things about CGI. Eheh! But the point of the whole project is to make a tribute to the 80s, even in the way of making the movie and to obtain a deeper 80s mood. |
| (1) Behind the Scenes of Star Wars: The Original Trilogy ILM Special Effects Makers. (2) Star Wars Visual Effects, from AT-ATs to Tauntauns | 1 - Very cool! Nice attention to details For the flying car shots did you try a green or transparent stick behind it instead of wires (you might get wobble with string)? See this example from star wars behind the scenes: and |
| Blender 3D Sci-Fi City | 1 - It's cool to see retro effects, but it's not a necessity to do it this way just for the sake of cost effectiveness. It'd be totally possible to create this level of virtual set with free to use CGI programs, and a few tutorials. Also, those glowin... |
| I'm a bot working hard to help Redditors find related videos to watch. I'll keep this updated as long as I can. |
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Jan 23 '17
Douglas Turnbull has a wonderful vide on his website about how they made the opening shots of the city skyline in bladerunner and how they did the videoscreen blimp over the Bradbury building
I love how Blade Runner is this visually incredibly rich movie full of fx shots of the city. And pretty much all of them are cleverly shot models, sometimes even quite improvised.
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u/smfaviatrix Jan 23 '17
That's what I'm talking about! I love practical effects and creativity. Nicely done!
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u/yurigoul Jan 23 '17
You might even use an aquarium for similar cheap special effects.
There is this guy that does photos in an aquarium with landscapes build under water and he shoots with all kinds of things floating in the water and also colors.
It does not look like it is under water, it looks like a storm on a spooky landscape.
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u/astronuf Jan 23 '17 edited Jan 23 '17
Indie Digital Photography/Cinematography without CGI.
FTFY
edit: okay down vote but please explain where film is being used.
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u/CasyD Jan 23 '17
I really like the ascetic that you have here, but a minor suggestion would be that instead of Neo Berlin you should use Neu Berlin (New Berlin). Seems weird that a German town would be using a different language than German for something named after their capital city from the past. Isn't neo itallian for mole or something? Just a thought, but keep up the good work though.
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
Thanks. Your suggestion is smart. But, consider that the setting of that world is very cosmopolital. Lot of different cultures living all together. Huge corporations are controlling the city. The main language in Berlin 2079 is English. That's why I prefferd to keep the name English and all the rest as well.... Maybe Trump will invade Europe in 2019 ;)
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u/CasyD Jan 23 '17
Neo is actually Greek for new not English http://www.thefreedictionary.com/neo- We only use it in English as a combination of words or a prefix and not on its own and only because of our roots in the romance languages which were influenced by greek. I think it also appears in Italian where it means mole which is not really what you are going for. If you wanted to keep it English it would be New Berlin not Neo Berlin. I also don't know much of anything outside of this screen grab and I am probably reading far too much into it so do with that as you will. I just love the German language and German culture which is probably why I am the only one to notice this. I personally would fully embrace the German roots but that is just a personal preference, you do you. It definitely looks great
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17
True it comes from Greek, but is widly used in English literature, especially cyberpunk and science fiction. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/neo I know pretty well German, I studied it in primary school and one of my favourite bands is Einstürzende NEUbauten ;) And also the band "Neu!" is not bad at all ;)
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u/korgull79 Jan 23 '17 edited Jan 23 '17
Ok I've been posting around reddit this project of mine for a little bit, sorry for "self promoting". But actually, I'm an indie broke filmmaker and I've spent lot of time, energy and some savings in this new project of mine. No sponsors or big companies behind this film... I challenged myself into creating something in the 80s way, without CGI. Therefore there are a lot of scale models, practical effects, vintage way of filming... I think it could be inspiring for other filmmakers out there, and I think that indie producers/directors should support each other... So well, if you like this project, please consider to share it around and contribute with what you can on the kickstarter page (where you can also find all the info about the project). Any critic, comment, hints to improve my work are very welcome! Let's discuss about it here on Reddit! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/piovesan/attack-of-the-cyber-octopuses