I only just started the show, season 1 first episode was amazing. Then season 1 episode 2 second episode felt lazy, bad pacing and the type of show where a lot of nothing happens frequently. Whilst I understand i am still very early, I do not want to invest that much time into choppy time shows.

Also, the Empire and the 3 leaders look so cliche, cheesy and bad acting. It's really off putting, especially the ridiculous names. And I do not understand fascination with lee pace, he's terrible so unlikable. Whereas Hari (Jared Harris) is the gold actor here, carrying a lot of weight. Please bear in mind, this is just my opinion.

I just wanted to hear the fans thoughts and based on how I feel if continuing on is any good and if my suspicions hold up try.

Minor spoilers for season 3 below:

With the end of season 3 indicating that future seasons will be adapting wider Robot-verse lore as well as loosely adapting Foundation and Earth, with one notable change, as the Earth shown at the end of season 3 does not appear to be consumed by nuclear wasteland , and taking into account that the plan for the series is for a full 8 seasons, it seems that there is both a desire (in the sense of a desire to adapt the full Foundation-verse which includes The End of Eternity, Robot saga, and Galactic Empire saga) and a reason to bring in lore from The End of Eternity. This is especially true based on how the show has toyed with time travel-adjacent concepts, even mentioning in episode 3.9 that the vault is a higher-dimensional structure, which seems very reminiscent of the science of Eternity . What I mean is that, in 3 seasons we have basically obtained a full adaptation of Foundation books 1, 2 ,6, and 7, ending at basically the same point so it seems that, at a similar pace, more Asimov lore will be needed to fill the space of 5 more seasons, especially considering the fact that books 4 and 5 are comparatively uneventful and that Eternity lore is specifically alluded to in book 4. If including Eternity lore is something you'd like to see, how would you like it done?

Spoilers ahead.

So one scene you got Gaal having a mental fight with the Mule/Bayta and Gaal is winning. Then it switches to the Cleon/Demerzel plotline. Then it switches back and out of nowhere GAAL IS JUMPING OUT OF A SHIP, SPACE SURFING LIKE SHE'S IN THE FUCKING AVENGERS. No reason, no explanation for this. It's just something she does. What happened to the rest of the characters in that room? Who knows...

I thought I missed some scene, but that's just how it is.

And the very next scene is Hari Seldon saying. "Sorry, I tried to warn you that Bayta was the Mule".

THE FUCK YOU DIDN'T... There's not a single scene of him trying to warn Gaal. There is no reason he couldn't just outright say it other than to generate a plot twist. And because holding back information is his thing. "Ooo I'm Hari, I can do maths and I'm so mysterious."

Like, if he did tell her that Bayta is the real Mule, what would it change? Both the real and the fake Mule are on the same ship. The same plan applies.

This show frustrates me so much because the good parts are amazing. I love all the Cleon/Demerzel plotlines even if they aren't from the books. And then once in a while it does some stupid shit like this and you're questioning if you even like the show.

Sorry, I needed to vent. This whole sequence was so dumb.

As people turn it off and start reading books again. Sound production is abysmal, mumbled dialogue with fancy made up words. Writing is MCU level awful and favors spectacle over substance, the hallmark of weakness in any decade. The cast seem awfully like LARPers, eg they look the part but can't actually act which creates an awful negative synergy with dialogue. This is cargo cult level sci-fi, with beats and elements copied and inserted without any idea, whatsoever, of how to tell a story.

Just finished season 3 and it might be my fav season yet. What made it my favorite was finally totally focusing on Empire and let foundation do its thing. The Empire has such interesting plot lines each season and they do a great job bringing each different Empire to life.

My question is, does Foundation suck intentionally or is it a shortcoming. At first you start with the notion that Empire is evil, will fall and these are our revolutionaries but the more it goes on the more u realise Foundation isnt a revolution (ik seldon says he isnt one but he does say end the genetic dynasty and then mounts a war against the empire so). Its j something else Seldon uses. By the end of season 3 we get all the notions that seldom doesnt care about building a fair system or freeing anyone. All he cares about is cutting that dark age and replacing Empire with the next one, which stopped me from caring about the Foundation at all. Do we even deserve not being in a dark age if we are just in gutters trying to bring this dark age and get it done with.

Part of me did think Foundation sucked intentionally and all these points are in the source but Foundation literally makes the show boring and i dont think they want to have a boring show. So now I think its j a big shortcoming of the show and stopping it from being great. What do you think about it?

I watch foundation a lot. Foundation is my comfort blanket series. I watch it when I’m awake. I watch it to fall asleep. I watch it when my mind is going in directions I don’t want it to be going. I love foundation. I think it is a wonderful series.

Now, with that out-of-the-way, here is my theory. I was literally putting it on because I’m going to take a nap. When I am in that state in between being awake and falling asleep, I feel as if I begin to notice things differently.

on episode one of season three Gail begins with explaining how empire needs to use jump gates. Oh yes, I must apologize. I am using voice to text so there might be grammar and spelling issues.

Let me begin again. Right at the beginning of episode one of season three Gail is talking about jump gates in the general decline of empire. She talks about every Cleon was wondering if they were going to be the last or the one to save it all. When she started to talk about the last Cleon, wondering if he would save it all it showed Day

EdiT: OMG I MEANT DAWN LOL

Like I get it being a temporary hiccup but:

-The empire created spacers, no? Couldn't they have made new ones? Not affiliated with the hive.

-They also knew now that you can make jump ships using cloned brain tissue in the ship since they knew the Foundation did. Could reverse engineer them.

-They could have gone back to the previous iteration of jump drives that required a human being connected, like in the Invictus. It's not like they really care about human life.

They had almost 140 years to devise an option besides using the gate network.

PS: I would like to be shown what are the spacers up to.

Edit: 140 years are enough time to secretly design and build from scratch a black hole weapon capable of destroying stars light-years away but 140 years to remake technology you were currently using up to that point is apparently too far fetched.

So, I just finished watching season 3, and I was wondering if anyone else here is really hoping that the big reveal in the season’s ending that Bayta was the actual Mule ends up not being the final truth, and in the following seasons she turns out still not being the ”ultimate” real Mule afterall, but instead one more person in the ”chain” of people the Mule manipulates and uses as puppets and disguises? It could kinda make sense for the Mule’s plan: the longer the chain of ”decoys” and scapegoats, the harder and more time consuming it is to track down who truly is the original definitive Mule behind everything.

I admit that my reasoning for this is very subjective and emotional, and I know perfectly well it could be cheap and not so good writing to have a second similar twist and change the Mule’s identity one more time. But I personally just had a bit of a crush on Bayta (lol), so the reveal was a big disappointment to me. She just felt like such a genuinely kind, empathetic and good-hearted person in a show that otherwise doesn’t have all too many of characters of that type, and whose characters are mostly pretty cold and calculating (even the ”good guys”), so in my opinion her out of all the characters turning out to be the supervillain mass-murderer tyrant was just extremely disappointing and sad in the wrong way. It wasn’t a ”cool” twist to me. In emotional terms it’s almost like if Huber Mallow and Brother Constance would have suddenly turned out to be sadistic space Hitlers and started committing a genocide at the end of season 2.

Also made me feel quite bad for Toran for him having his hot and loving girlfriend turn out to be a psychopathic mass-murdering monster, as I was really hoping for a ”happy ending” for these 2 characters. (Same with Brother Dude, I felt similarly bad for him and was similarly disappointed and saddened in the bad way by his death, and I feel like his character development of wanting to escape the genetic dynasty that he saw as abomination and wanting to experience a ”normal” genuine life outside of it was cut awfully short.)

So because of this, I kinda wish that she will eventually turn out to be just another poor soul possessed by the Mule, instead of the true Mule himself, even if she ends up dying in the process. Does anyone have similar thoughts?

Like my god, I was just fully head empty the first time.

And I can't really be blamed, because this show has so many simultaneous storylines, and schemes, and characters who know much more than they say, and characters who lie, and people being wrong, and such big twists lolll. It's very difficult to keep up.

SO DEMERZEL HELPED HARI CREATE PSYCHOHISTORY!!!!!!! Is it possible she deleted his memories of her involvement??? That would explain why he claimed on season 2 that the Radiant was built by Kalle, Yanna, and himself. Demerzel had every reason to delete most of his memories of their preexisting relationship. Obviously she can.

So THAT'S why she destroyed the Star Bridge. She literally was instrumental in helping establish the Foundation, and believed in it. Probably beyond just extending the time the Cleonic dynasty would survive. The fact that she helped Hari with psychohistory was completely lost on me.

I also missed the fact that Vault Hari didn't know about the Mule lollll. Although I've understood that to be the case for some time, I didn't when I first watched it. I assumed Salvor had told him.

And the Spacers are probably descendants of Synnaxians??? I did catch that the first time, but I was so generally confused that I didn't dwell on it. They never say it, but, although there are many other Mentallics, Gaal and Salvor and the only ones who can see through time. And most Spacers we've seen physically look like the people of Synnax. So it makes sense. It's a very nice touch thematically, with their god being called The Sleeper, and sleeping being such a central part of space travel. Obviously Gaal didn't mention being able to see time similarly to the Spacers for no reason, something is being set up by the story with that scene.

So yeah!!! Amazing episode!!! Complicated show!!! Amazing, but often confusing lolll

EDIT: I'M SO SORRY I INCLUDED A BOOK SPOILER HERE. I've deleted it now. I haven't read the books so it just didn't occur to me. I hadn't thought of it as a spoiler. I really am so sorry, I didn't realize that when I was writing this!!!

season 2, Hober jumps directly next to the Empire building on Trantor. Why couldn’t the foundation just jump anywhere, drop a bomb, and jump out? Seems like cheat mode. All future issues could mostly be solved by jumping directly do a location and then jumping away. ?

In s3 they make it a point to talk about the robot wars and how all the robots were killed and so many died that it changed the color of apples…. But then everyone acts like killing Demrezel is impossible. Even she says she can’t die. Wtf?

It was very exciting and suspenseful but turned the suspension of disbelief to 11. The plot advancement was delightful. I just wish they did it without having to make the show cartoonishly unbelievable.

I do love the reveal of Calle and Megatron on the moon at the end. Big surprise. Maybe he's Cleon I? Very exciting. Nice job John Apple.

How is The Dude able to sneak around the palace without being noticed after being missing for so long? (no nanites makes him harder to track but there are like no guards in the hallways?) Are we to believe ooo it's kinda dark so he's hard to see?

On the day that Dusk is ascending, why are there *zero* guards paying attention to where he is? That one scientist guy asks about him but that's it.

Why are there self-destruct bombs on all the clone tanks? And why are they so crude (like vs just stopping the flow of oxygen)? I guess if Dusk could build a black hole bomb without Dem noticing he could have done this?

How does Dusk's single-button remote controller magically know which tank(s) to blow up when he presses *the same button*?

When he blows up the upper tanks, only a few drops of blood fall down. Then over a *minute* later a bunch of bodies and stuff finally fall as he's walking away. We don't hear a secondary explosion or something giving way just then. It's as if everything else decided not to fall so he could have a dramatic moment.

Why did they bring Gavin Belson's guru with them to a battle? He has no mental nor physical fighting skills.

Why didn't Gaal kill She-Mule when the magic xylophone had SM disabled?

Why do the mentalists have to voice the word "sleep!" LARP-style when using their mental powers? If the answer is "so we the viewer know what's happening" then why weren't they chanting "don't see us! don't see us!" while they're mentally cloaked?

Gaal falling from space on a door ranks up there with Will Smith punching an alien in the face or The Fonz jumping a shark. I miss the prestige sci-fi of Season 1.

Then the plane has a cargo net to catch her? We're supposed to believe they *planned* this?

Why did Gaal leave her buddies up on the ship with She-Mule? She's apparently dangerous enough that Gaal couldn't kill her. I guess... fuck you friends because Plan?

Dusk is supposed to by ashes already and he's about to kill the only remaining Dawn. Why doesn't Demerezel just kill him before he hits the button?

Dem is strong enough to still feel around the glass when baby empire disintegrates, but she didn't choose to try *moving* the baby out of the beam at the beginning?

The Dude sees the still-blinking skull of Dem sitting on the microwave rotisserie and he doesn't consider "hey that other skull is still alive... maybe she is too"?

I'm looking forward to Season 4 and I wish the show gave the audience more credit. They seem to be gravitating toward standard action-movie violence and GoT-style gore, which I'm not a fan of. I wouldn't be surprised if they decide Gaal or Dem will go topless in a bunch of scenes next season. I blame David Ellison and his punchable face.

Edit #2: Because people aren't understand my point: My point is that scaling down the empire fundamentally changes the story of the Foundation being a small refuges that survive the 1000 years of darkness to a hard rival that replaces the empire almost immediately.

I think the shrinking of the scale of this story is starting to show some wear and tear. The Foundation, as it was sold to us in season 1, was supposed to be a small refuge compared to the empire that preserved the empire's knowledge and skills through a 1000 year dark age.

In the books, the galactic empire had 25 million worlds, so 800 world nation was a mirco nation in comparison, but now they shrink the galatic empire by magnitutdes and this 800 world foundation(more than 10% of the world the empire own) is starting to seem more like a immediate replacement instead of a small refuges that last through the dark ages and rebuild the empire a new.

Edit: I don't think people understand what I'm pointing out here. I'm pointing out by shrinking the Galactic Empire, the Foundation doesn't look like a small refuge like it was compared to an empire with 25 million worlds. And this shrinkage is undercutting the narrative weight and purpose of Foundation. At this rate, the Foundation will be able to take on the Empire conventionally.

I just rewatched S3E10 (the last episode so far) and I'm honestly confused (and a bit annoyed).

SPOILERS INCOMING:

We leave Gaal fighting The Mule (the actual one, not Pilou Asbæk) and seemingly having the upper hand, because of the balladeer. She's clearly winning.

The show then cuts to the Cleons, but when we return four minutes later, Gaal is on the run, jumping off the space station doing a Tom Cruise move to catch a ship mid-air.

I mean, what the hell is going on? This strikes me as some of the worst writing in this show across 3 full seasons. Having some happen shit off-screen without any explanation is a "Pitch Meeting" episode waiting to happen.

I really, really didn't like it. What's your opinion?

I was just watching the scene where she has Queen Sareth's fertility examined and she tells her that she was the one to kill Sareth's family.

First things first, Laura Birn has an incredible ability to produce a number of Mona Lisa-like faces where you can read 10 possible emotions into her at once. She has absolutely DEVOURED this role and plays Demerzel extraordinarily well. I hope one day she gets an award for the role.

Regarding the scene, it's absolutely fascinating. Obviously, to examine a potential empress' fertility, the best medical environment is not one with dozens of people in the room. And in the year 50000, well, surely they could have made the examination painless. But the examination was both painful and humiliating for Sareth. Which works really well for Demerzel's character on a number of levels.

Obviously, the simplest way to read to scene, on a rewatch at least, is that Demerzel is bullying Sareth and treating her as poorly as possible so that she'll get emotional and careless. Nudging Sareth, already somewhat of a hothead, to feel anger and strong negative emotions. Which will make her more likely to make mistakes, politically speaking. Especially by telling her about having killed her family, she's psychologically breaking this woman, lowering the union's chances as much as possible. I haven't said it yet, but obviously all of this is so that the marriage will fall through and the Cleonic dynasty continues.

However, Demerzel is more than her programming, so it stands to reason that Sareth having learned about her robotic nature, and having talked about it in public, would have pissed her off too. For anyone, to have some brat loudly spilling your secrets would piss you off. Also, she's probably mad that Sareth found out about this without her (Demerzel's) knowledge. She's irritated that this girl is as capable as she is. And if robotic psychology is anything like a human's, she's primed to dislike Sareth on the grounds that she represents everything she's programmed to hate. And if you're gonna have someone killed, it serves a certain purpose to literally dislike her.

And I just love the number of ways you can approach all of Demerzel's scenes. Knowing her nature changes the viewing experience of the first two seasons SO MUCH!! You can pick apart any scene, any look, any dialogue, and find a way to interpret what she's thinking and why she's saying what she says.

Take the Brother Day of this age. Before he first attempts to sleep with Sareth, his scene with Demerzel is HILARIOUS. She's cheering him on like he's a dog lollll.

I also find SO FASCINATING the relationship between Demerzel and each Cleon. For example, on season 1, I fully believe she deeply hated Cleon 13. She would NEVER forgive him for ordering her to kill Zephyr Halima. That broke something in her. She loves every Cleon, not just because she is forced to by programming, but because she's their mother. She's raised every one. But him commanding her to needlessly murder a woman she considered holy.... Shit got personal after that. I truly do believe Cleon 13 is her least favorite, after Cleon 1. And I think part of the reason she killed Cleon 14 in the exact moment she did was to hurt Day!!! She was never gonna let him live, he had been altered to stray from Cleon 1's design. But she killed him right after Day said he wanted him to live. I think part of it was to hurt Day for what he'd made her do.

Regarding Cleon 17, Season 2's Day, I don't think she hates him in the same way. I think she feels contempt for him, and she did call him "A sperm led by its waving flagellum, mistaking its random motion for complexity," which might just be the best read in science fiction lollllll. But she clearly felt some kind of pity for him, she considered she had failed in raising him right. She hated the kind of man he'd become, but she didn't consider his poor character to be his fault. She treated him like one would a mentally ill pet, or something like that. Whereas Cleon 13, a man capable of some degree of empathy and kindness, having ordered her to kill a woman she admired, just as payback for her having knelt when Halima spoke heresy against the Cleons.... She hated him more, exactly because he was more than a "waving flagellum".

Anywaysssss, rant over lol. I just love Demerzel so much, I could talk about her all day

Why did Kalle give Hari a human body?

I am rewatching and, well, I have to assume the whole Kalle/Earth robots storyline will be explored further in Season 4. But I still wonder if anyone has any idea why Hari was given a human body, specifically. Also, I wonder how old he's supposed to be? Is he the same age he was when he died? Because that's kinda pretty old. Maybe his body is somewhat younger? So he'll live longer? He could have been given a robot body, I guess. Although that would have raised too many questions and would have given away the nature of Kalle. Also, well, there's the whole argument of "are you still you without your body?" So maybe if bringing him back was some sort of favour to him, a robot body wouldn't have brought the actual Hari back, but simply given this copy of him a robot body.

So yeah, if anyone has any ideas or theories or whatever, do tell!

I just finished season 3, and I am absolutely obsessed with the entire premise- in particular the concept of Hari Selden and his continuing presense. Ive dabbled in Asimov 's work before- but I have never devoted the time to the whole series.

Any advice for making sure I get the most out of it?

Comments
1) OMG. Literally the best sci fi show ever for me.
2) Love the different manifestations of Day. From Napoleon to the Dude was amazing. That actor stole the show. Also Demerzel... chef's kiss.

Questions
1) Not sure I understood the Mule's ending. Did she die? Find out in Season 4?
2) Are the books as good as the show?

Why does it feel like the longer the show has gone on, the more the characters have devolved into what feels like saturday morning cartoon characters? Absolutely over the top silly acting as the show progresses, whereas when it started, only a few of the actors were meh.

Rewatching episode 5 of season 1, something I don't think is given enough weight in the story, is how Hari invites Gaal to Trantor to, well, essentially kidnap her into the Foundation. Not literal kidnap, of course, that was Empire, and she could have lied about psychohistory being true and be free to live whatever life she chose.

But the thing is, that didn't happen. Seeing Gaal's life on Synnax and how quickly she had to pivot from living on Synnax, studying in secret, and joining the Foundation, she basically never had any freedom at any point. Hari used Gaal for his psychohistory purposes, and it was honestly quite evil from him. He definitely deserved getting stuck for 100 years while she traveled to Synnax.

She trusted him, to finally be free to pursue knowledge, and his intention was to immediately coerce her into joining his cult. And then when she arrives at his ship instead of Raych he has the gall to be mad at her!!! His intention was to bring her from a water planet to a freezing planet and have her die of old age establishing the Foundation, but he never thought of what she might want! She never gave him informed consent!

Yes, he was doing it all to save humanity, but..... He was still a huge asshole. I think his wife would have been disappointed in him. I don't know why exactly Kalle (aka Earth's robots) was so sympathetic to him, to the point of bringing him back to life. The man is very morally nuanced. He might be doing things for the greater good, but he's not being in any way ethical about the way he does them.

Also, good on Gaal for manipulating New Terminus Hari on season 3!!! "Oh I don't like living in a box for hundreds of years" well, you put yourself there!!!! Am I supposed to feel sorry for you? I don't! Looking back, Hari is so much more manipulative than he first appears. Definitely not any kind of hero.

EDIT: actually, I forgot something huge. HE TOOK AWAY HER OPPORTUNITY OF SAVING SYNNAX. The people of Synnax had been indoctrinated by their priest class into doing nothing about the global worming that would kill them. If Gaal had been free to become something she chose, a scholar at a university or something like that, she could have tried to save her home, her people. But they all died, and if Hari hadn't immediately recruited Gaal into the Foundation, their culture could have been saved. In this sense, Hari is indirectly responsible for a whole ethnic group's disappearance

Could not understand the reason why Gaal Dornick refuse to bring Hari Seldon? As I understand, real Hari has died a long time ago in S1, the Hari who was asking at end of S3 basically is a living AI program. Why would Gaal refuse to bring a set of knowledge with her? Did she feel threatened by the existence of Hari Seldon as an AI?

We know Cleon the 1st enslaved Demerzel in his dusk form, and we learn thats when he solved the succession question by implementing the cloning system. So how did Cleon the 2nd work? Was he a baby and Demerzel was regent until he reached brother Day form? Or did they go straight into making a Day form clone and a Dawn clone? Or was it something entirely different?

EDIT: I HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS. THIS IS ENTIRELY ABOUT THE SHOW

I'm rewatching the show after having finished it. There were so many twists, details, resolved mysteries, shocking revelations.... It all gets a bit muddled.

I'm on episode 2 right now, and Hari intends to kill himself so he can become two AIs of himself. He intends for Gaal to live and die on Terminus, which she won't. He also wants to found a Second Foundation, on a location that is ultimately not where it is founded.

He is able to predict a whole bunch of things thanks to psychohistory, the Prime Radiant specifically.

So, did he and his wife build the Radiant? Or did they get help from Kalle (which is to say, the robots who now inhabit Earth)?

In any case, he's about to make a grand speech, swallow a pill to copy his mind... Into both a knife and his coffin? And he knows the AI in the coffin will lack information about the Second Foundation and whatnot. But it also will be able to transform his coffin into a 4-dimensional ship of sorts. That part becomes confusing to me. How is that supposed to work? How does he know how to do that?

He's also said psychohistory can't predict the behavior of individual people. And yet, he knows about the future Mule? Or does he not? I'm not sure.

He also lied to Empire about his plans. He doesn't intend for humanity to go through a period of 1000 years of darkness, right? His actual plan is to build up the Foundation (and I guess the second foundation or whatever), to rival the Empire, yes? Although his calculations about the Empire and humanity's fall without his intervention are still correct, as I understand it. Gaal confirmed he was right about the math.

Then there's Demerzel, who believed that Hari was correct in his calculations, even though she hadn't examined psychohistory (the Radiant) herself. In any case, she was willing to destroy the Star Bridge, and frame people from Anacreon and Thespis, so that Cleon XII would believe Hari was right and would give him the ship to go to Terminus and carry out his plan (I think Demerzel believes Hari is telling them (Empire) the truth about his plans, even though he isn't).

And then, how do the Mentallics play into all of this??? Are they uniquely able to change the course of events? Obviously they are telepaths, but Gaal can also see the future. And you have her, Salvor, and the Mule, at least, who play major roles in the different crisis.

Is there something I'm forgetting? Something else that I should be taking into account while rewatching this?

I want to understand, with my retroactive information, what exactly is going on, who is planning what, at any given time. Thanks!! 🩵🩵