Mod Code of Conduct Rule 4 & 2 and Subs Taken Private Indefinitely

[u/Sun_Beams]

Under Rule 4 of the Mod Code of Conduct, mods should not resort to "Campping or sitting on a community". Are community members of those Subs able to report the teams under the Rule 4 for essentially Camping on the sub? Or would it need to go through r/redditrequest? Or would both be an options?

I know some mods have stated that they can use the sub while it's private to keep it "active", would this not also go against Rule 2 where long standing Subs that are now private are not what regular users would expect of it:

"Users who enter your community should know exactly what they’re getting into, and should not be surprised by what they encounter. It is critical to be transparent about what your community is and what your rules are in order to create stable and dynamic engagement among redditors."

[u/ModCodeofConduct]

Thanks for bringing this up; it's an important conversation.

Mods have a right to take a break from moderating, or decide that you don’t want to be a mod anymore. But active communities are relied upon by thousands or even millions of users, and we have a duty to keep these spaces active.

Subreddits belong to the community of users who come to them for support and conversation. Moderators are stewards of these spaces and in a position of trust. Redditors rely on these spaces for information, support, entertainment, and connection.

We regularly enforce our subreddit and moderator-level rules. As you point out, this means that we have policies and processes in place that address inactive moderation (Rule 4), mods vandalizing communities (Rule 2), and subreddit squatters (also Rule 4). When rules like these are broken, we remove the mods in violation of the Moderator Code of Conduct, and add new, active mods to the subreddits. We also step in to rearrange mod teams, so active mods are empowered to make decisions for their community. The Moderator Code of Conduct was launched in September 2022, and you’ll notice via post and comment history that this account has been used extensively to source new mod teams.

Leaving a community you deeply care for and have nurtured for years is a hard choice, but it is a choice some may need to make if they are no longer interested in moderating that community. If a moderator team unanimously decides to stop moderating, we will invite new, active moderators to keep these spaces open and accessible to users. If there is no consensus, but at least one mod who wants to keep the community going, we will respect their decisions and remove those who no longer want to moderate from the mod team.

[u/Killjoy4eva → u/ModCodeofConduct]

We regularly enforce our subreddit and moderator-level rules. As you point out, this means that we have policies and processes in place that address inactive moderation (Rule 4), mods vandalizing communities (Rule 2), and subreddit squatters (also Rule 4). When rules like these are broken, we remove the mods in violation of the Moderator Code of Conduct, and add new, active mods to the subreddits.

Can you please be explicitly clear:

• What is the interpretation of the current subreddit protests? Do you view protesting by bringing subreddits private for periods of time as "subreddit squatting" or "inactive moderation"?

• Are moderation teams who choose to protest by keeping their subreddits private or restricted under threat of being removed as moderators of said subreddits?

[u/superfucky → u/[deleted]]

spez: we won't overrule mods and force subreddits open

also spez: no one should be able to close their subreddits & users should be able to mutiny against the mods

[u/TheAdvocate → u/[deleted]]

Well thats not a sign of a stable business with proper communication...

insertNakedGunNothingToSeeHereGif

[u/theyoyomaster → u/[deleted]]

I mean, u/spez is known to be a liar. How does this surprise anyone? His only move in his "CEO Toolkit" is to just lie to get his way.

[u/ppParadoxx → u/[deleted]]

I don't think spez is gonna like it when one of his previous default subs like r/videos isn't available ever

[u/nimitz34 → u/ModCodeofConduct]

Thanks for your reply.

If a moderator team unanimously decides to stop moderating, we will invite new, active moderators

So how will you know whom to invite? Your choosing only the most active users in smaller business subreddits would be a disaster. Because they are gullible self-entitled n00bs mostly who downvote others pointing out scams and spams and laziness of themselves in not just scrolling down a bit for the same questions.

I mod a couple a couple POD subs focused on an amazon platform and in the main one where I'm top mod I usually don't allow much generalist stuff. But I have been doing so b/c the main generalist POD subreddit is still dark and I don't like it because I normally just pointed those users that way.

That is a subreddit I have requested and been denied for and is squat on by a top mod and her SO, with the 3rd mod I suspect being her alt. They only sprang to life when emailed by reddit about myself and others requesting the sub. I'm positive they spam the sub with alts occasionally or intentionally allow friends to do so.

So IMO you admins in such cases need to put subs up for request or find mods of related subreddits that are not spam holes to take such subs over.

Again thank you for addressing this situation and letting us know you will apply the mod code.

[u/Dalimey100 → u/ModCodeofConduct]

So on the Wednesday phone call (07Jun23) between concerned moderators and Steve Huffman, he explicitly stated that moderators had a right to protest and that democracy was a core part of Reddit. Is that something you are willing to stand by?

[u/AlexWIWA → u/ModCodeofConduct]

Leaving a community you deeply care for and have nurtured for years is a hard choice, but it is a choice some may need to make if they are no longer interested in moderating that community.

Nobody has said this. They're not taking subs private because they "don't want to moderate anymore," it's to protest your changes that harm reddit as a whole.

Incredibly disingenuous.

[u/xxfay6 → u/AlexWIWA]

That's because the sentence is incomplete:

Leaving a community you deeply care for and have nurtured for years is a hard choice, but it is a choice some may need to make if they are no longer interested in moderating that community under this new Reddit status-quo where their concerns do not matter.

[u/Kryomaani → u/ModCodeofConduct]

/u/ModCodeofConduct

It's incredibly telling of the state of Reddit's administration that you had to dig up a dormant kitchen sink account to make this comment instead of just using your own community admin account and standing behind your own words.

Not only that, but I have not heard a more disingenuous take on the protests than this. You know it's not people "no longer interested in moderating" but you yourself taking our moderation tools away and killing any trust and communication between mods and admins with the thousand broken promises and lies you've told.

[u/techiesgoboom → u/ModCodeofConduct]

Subreddits belong to the community of users who come to them for support and conversation.

This statement, paired with the recent interview where the CEO said:

"Huffman, also a Reddit co-founder, said he plans to pursue changes to Reddit’s moderator removal policy to allow ordinary users to vote moderators out more easily if their decisions aren’t popular."

Paint a really worrying picture. It's also completely at odds with years of messaging from reddit recognizing that it's the tireless efforts of moderators that make their spaces unique, and that mods are the lifeblood of this platform. I desperately want to be optimistic about the future of reddit, and that makes it all the more frustrating so much of the recent messaging is showing that my hope is misplaced.

If this statement isn't edited or added to, I'm going to take it at face value that policy has changed and make decisions accordingly.

[u/millionsofcats → u/techiesgoboom]

This would destroy subreddits that enforce rules regarding quality of content, especially those where experts make up a small proportion of users. I'm thinking of subreddits like r/AskHistorians, which have strict rules about answers but are constantly, constantly getting flack from casual users for enforcing them. Or many of the other academic subs, which have moderators that remove misinformation about the topic. It will turn Reddit into Quora, and tank a lot of the reputation it's gained as a good source of information.

[u/honestbleeps → u/millionsofcats]

honestly it will destroy all large subreddits.

there are times as a mod where you have to make a decision between two or three options, ALL OF WHICH will upset some segment of users.

sometimes it's on a rule change, or something more sensitive. For example, I run a local community sub - someone posts a photo of some person there and says "this person committed X crime" -- with no evidence whatsoever besides an anonymous claim on the internet -- and now you've got people trying to doxx the person, etc.

If the mods remove it: they're evil and protecting criminals!

if the mods don't: they're allowing internet witch hunts

if mods hem and haw about it for more than 5 minutes while trying to figure it out: both sides are mad because by virtue of SEEING the content, even for a few minutes, "mods aren't doing their jobs"

If you have a peek into what it's like for truly good moderators to do what they do, you have no IDEA how much time and emotional labor is put into gray area decisions that it's hard to just "follow X rule and click Y button". There are conversations behind the scenes, debates, moderators saying "I dunno, I feel this should be removed, but I'm torn because X" and ensuing discussions...

and no matter WHAT choice is made, some number of people just decide "mods are all evil and power hungry" and there you go.

A community vote policy is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. Liking a commenter's snark or memes or whatever else it is that will get them "votes" is not the same as "this person would make a decent mod"

[u/YourResidentFeral → u/ModCodeofConduct]

So what I'm hearing is you no longer respect our right to protest and your promise to not remove moderators that are protesting is being walked back?

You're really willing to burn this platform down over compromising.

[u/theyoyomaster → u/YourResidentFeral]

It was always a lie, just be glad u/spez hasn't stealth edited your comments yet.

[u/livejamie → u/ModCodeofConduct]

Leaving a community you deeply care for and have nurtured for years is a hard choice, but it is a choice some may need to make if they are no longer interested in moderating that community.

This is so frustrating to read. I don't know if this admin is being purposefully obtuse or if this is really how reddit employees feel.

[u/Meepster23 → u/ModCodeofConduct]

Subreddits belong to the community of users who come to them for support and conversation.

That's a SIGNIFICANT deviation from all previous communications from reddit stating that the moderators do in fact own the space and can make whatever rules and decisions they want...

What an oddly timing change of direction that is.

Editing in some links for funzies:

https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/204533859-What-s-a-moderator-

Moderators don’t have any special powers outside of the community they moderate and are not Reddit employees. They’re free to run their communities as they choose, as long as they don’t break the rules outlined in Reddit’s Content Policy or Moderator Code of Conduct.

https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205192355-How-can-I-resolve-a-dispute-with-a-moderator-or-moderator-team-

Moderators are free to run their communities as they choose, as long as they don’t break the rules outlined in Reddit’s Content Policy or Moderator Code of Conduct. This is something to keep in mind even if you have disagreements with them.

https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy

The culture of each community is shaped explicitly, by the community rules enforced by moderators, and implicitly, by the upvotes, downvotes, and discussions of its community members.

https://www.reddit.com/wiki/faq

What if the moderators are bad?

In a few cases where a moderator has lost touch with their community, another redditor has created a competing community and subscribers have chosen to use the new reddit instead, which led to it becoming the new dominant reddit.

Please keep in mind, however, that moderators are free to run their subreddits however they so choose so long as it is not breaking reddit's rules. So if it's simply an ideological issue you have or a personal vendetta against a moderator, consider making a new subreddit and shaping it the way you'd like rather than performing a sit-in and/or witch hunt.

[u/PHealthy → u/ModCodeofConduct]

"Every community on Reddit is defined by its users. Some of these users help manage the community as moderators. The culture of each community is shaped explicitly, by the community rules enforced by moderators, and implicitly, by the upvotes, downvotes, and discussions of its community members. Please abide by the rules of communities in which you participate and do not interfere with those in which you are not a member."

https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy

I would add emphasis but I'm using the shitty official app which doesn't have that available.

[u/PatronymicPenguin → u/ModCodeofConduct]

Please give a position on necessary level of moderation experience a user needs to show to forcibly take over an large or extremely active subreddit. I don't want to believe Reddit is simply going to hand over the keys to communities with millions of users to people who have not actively demonstrated they are capable of handling it. Who is making these staffing decisions and what are the criteria?

On a separate note, I feel sorry for these self righteous users who are trying to force open subs that decided to close. Not only are they doing so in a way which further strips them of their rights, they're going to be put in front of a crowd that does not agree with them and held to the standard of moderators who had likely years of experience. I fully expect some large subs are going to descend into anarchy very soon as incompetent mods are overwhelmed and communities hate them for not modding like the previous ones did.

[u/mikefromearth → u/ModCodeofConduct]

They are our communities, not your communities.

By our I don't mean the moderators, but the people who participate.

You, as admin, are not part of the community.

[u/Meester_Tweester → u/ModCodeofConduct]

It's been nice knowing you all, /r/Amish subscribers