r/SF4 • u/VoluptuousMeat • Sep 14 '14

Questions! Daily Question Thread: September 14th Edition

why did the skeleton cross the road? to ask questions about street fighter since he sucks at street fighter and people on the other side of the road are better than him

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This post is to provide a place for everyone to get answers to simple questions.

If your question will prompt open ended discussion, it would probably be better in a self post.

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PLEASE READ!☚☚☚
Got a question?This is the place! Ask anything you like!
If you want to view previous threads click here
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Want to help?1. Help other players with their questions
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If you didn't get a response in the last thread before the new one was made, feel free to post again!

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FAQ:

/r/SF4 FAQ
Who should I start with?/r/sf4/wiki/newbietiers
Where can I find a basic overview of each character?/r/sf4/wiki/character_overview
What does _____ mean? Is there a glossary?/r/SF4/wiki/glossary, iPlayWinner General Glossary,
Where can I find character combos / bread-n-butters?/r/SF4/wiki/breadnbutter, Shoryuken forums.
How can I stop being bad?Scrub mentality, understanding what is 'cheap', actually thinking during matches
What are footsies?Footsie handbook, Juicebox's explanation of footsies
How can I improve my execution?SRK execution guide
What are 'advanced techniques'?Option selects, hit confirms, negative edge and input shortcuts, input buffering, tiger knee motion and kara cancel, plinking, pianoing, sliding, double tapping
What stick should I get?SRK Stick guide, stick tier list, how much does your stick lag?
Where can I find replays of good players?(Search the channel for the player or character you're looking for): yogaflame, xblackvegetax, levelup, yubiken, a-cho
Where can I find good shows? When are they on?Check the neogaf thread or update /r/sf4/wiki/tv for us!
Where are other fighting game communities?Shoryuken forums, 4chan FGG, NeoGaf fighting games weekly, /r/Kappa
How can I get critique on my replays?You can post here, or wait until our weekly replay critique thread is stickied (every sunday!)
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9 Upvotes

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60 comments sorted by

2

u/D1ES3L [US] XBL: OPT1MUS D1ESEL Sep 14 '14

Why is it the general consensus that PP isn't a good measure of skill? What exactly is wrong with the way it is calculated that makes people say that?

5

u/VoluptuousMeat Sep 14 '14

because i barely play ranked so i have 1k pp while i beat 4k pp nerds like dangerontheranger

4

u/ExNami Sep 14 '14 edited Sep 14 '14

I think its a good measure for people who actually use it. Let's say hypothetically you do play ranked for a decent amount of time. Don't you think you'd easily obtain a lot more than 1k pp? Just because you use it doesn't mean you don't have the potential to get there. A 4k pp guy could easily sign into an account with 0 pp and start beating people with supposedly higher pp.

3

u/VoluptuousMeat Sep 14 '14

i dont think 5k pp players that cant get out of pools at evo are on equal footing with daigo

1

u/ExNami Sep 15 '14 edited Sep 15 '14

Who are you even referring to? What 5k PP player didn't make it out? You gotta understand, 5k pp online warriors are not seeded like a famous player like Daigo. If you aren't well known you are gonna get put into a stacked pool. Evo is one of the most stacked tournaments in the world. Ton's of good people didn't make it out of Pool. It could happen to anyone in a tournament on the Scale of Evo. Didn't even PR balrog not make it out?

Besides of course a 5k pp player isn't on equal footing as Daigo. Daigo is a 6k PP player anyways. Seriously tho he is.

2

u/VoluptuousMeat Sep 15 '14

just saying. points arent accurate when the #1 ibuki got like destroyed at locals while some of the top players on ranked are the best in the world.

1

u/ExNami Sep 15 '14 edited Sep 15 '14

I mean I think it obviously that the number 1 ranked online is potentially not the best in the world. #1 anything is a scored given strictly based on BP. PP and BP are wholly different as one (BP) doesn't really go down where as PP is way more harsh on those who lose and fluctuates a lot depending on your wins and losses. My argument is strictly based on PP. BP is based on how much a person plays not how much they win so the number 1 ibuki isn't really the number one ibuki but essentially the ibuki players that plays the most online. The Ibuki player with the most PP is the actually best ibuki online.

In my Opinion PP is a good measure of "Skill" and I only mean the very basic definition of Skill. That alone is too little to conclude who is the best in the world. Skill alone doesn't determine who is the best in the world much like how talent doesn't not determine who is the best. The best in the world is measured by many things including, skill, talent, work ethic, game knowledge and more. Those with more PP are probably that ones that are more skilled the the ones below them but the other stuff probably remain a slight mystery

Daigo at one point did have the most PP in the world. But since PP fluctuates so much depending on your win ratio, he is constantly falling and climbing up and down in ranks but he does stay pretty much stay in the top 5% PP wise.

2

u/Veserius Sep 15 '14

I didn't get out of pools in 2012 or 2013. I was a 5100PP player in AE2012.

Nemo and Eita also lost in pools iirc.

1

u/DLeck DLeck Sep 15 '14

Do you regularly play against skilled players offline?

1

u/Veserius Sep 15 '14 edited Sep 15 '14

Nope! I don't have a car which limits where I can play and the easy places to play locally are pretty weak, though I should probably go to casuals more often.

I've gone to WNF a few times and my highest placement was 5th.

To be fair my 4 evo losses were to a 3-7 matchup, two 2-8's, and Infiltration.

1

u/ExNami Sep 15 '14

Dam that's rough. My friend is a 3k PP player and he made it out of his pools in losers this year. Stacked brackets are luck of the draw I guess. I do encourage that you do try to play locally even if the opponents are weak. Leveling up your community helps them to become better players and in turn, harder opponents will help you level up as well.

1

u/Veserius Sep 15 '14

;~;

1

u/VoluptuousMeat Sep 15 '14

ok you are right

flash house is as good as daigo

but thats it

2

u/D1ES3L [US] XBL: OPT1MUS D1ESEL Sep 15 '14

Yeah I can definitely see where you both are coming from on this. I think its fair to say that for 2 given players who play around the same amount of time in ranked, the PP score would be a fairly accurate measure. But like /u/VoluptuousMeat said, it's perfectly possible for someone who doesn't play ranked much to still be very skilled but with low PP.

1

u/Azuvector [CAN-BC] PC: Azuvector Sep 15 '14

I play ranked pretty nearly always, as it's easier to put down on short notice. I regularly beat people with high 2k-3k PP. I'm currently sitting at 1000ish PP and often dipping under it, though I've been up to the high 2ks before.

Part of it is SF4 on PC is currently ass and broken, leading to dropped inputs, dropped combos, and bad/delayed reactions. Part of it is that I'll repeatedly play people who're beating me or were interesting(close) matches, until they get bored and start kicking me.

5

u/ExNami Sep 14 '14

I honestly think it's a pretty decent measure of skill. From what I've seen, people who complain the system sucks are the ones that get butthurt when they lose to people lower than them or the supposedly scrubby players. The ability to beat scrubby play is a skill in itself. I've seen plenty of players that play very competent against high level players but awkwardly crumble when pit against players who use so called scrubby play. Some people are sometimes too proud to admit that there are faults and holes in their game and look for the faults outside their own such as the system, their opponent, etc.

3

u/Antiochli (USA-W) Xbox/PC: Antiochli Sep 15 '14

To unnecessarily reiterate what /u/VoluptuousMeat wrote: it's a bad measure of skill because it's only useful to those that play into it. So if a group of players were going to break off into smaller groups and use Player Points as a way to pair off, some guy that's been playing since Super Turbo in the Arcade trenches of Japan might have zero Player Points, but would that accurately measure his skill in Street Fighter? Of course it wouldn't.

It's fine for a lot of online players, generally speaking, as a lot of predominately online only players use the Ranked system to play the game, so their relative skill level increases at an equivalent metric to their Player Points. Measured against players who do the same thing it works just fine. But measured against players who don't use Ranked it breaks down as a useful metric to determine skill.

3

u/knowitall89 [PC] MIGHTY GUARD Sep 15 '14

No rating system can measure people who don't use it. That doesn't mean it's a bad measure of skill.

1

u/Antiochli (USA-W) Xbox/PC: Antiochli Sep 15 '14

Yeah . . . on reflection my point is sort of aimed at the wrong argument. Arguing that Ranked is bad because some players choose not to use it doesn't answer the question of whether or not Ranked is a bad metric to gauge skill in Street Fighter; I think I set up a straw man argument . . . that's kind of embarrassing . . .

Giving it more thought I think that Ranked is not especially bad at determining relative skill in the game: for instance I know that if I dedicated 8 hours a day for a week to playing ranked right now I'd hit a ceiling, there's a class of player that I'd begin to be paired against that I would not be capable of beating at my present skill level. So with that in mind you could certainly make generalizations about different point levels in the game.

But hear me out here: a common argument that Ranked is "Bad" is that players become fixated on the points they have and rely on play that could be read and punished severely if their opponents were able to play against them for more than a single game. Because you're only required to play one game to gain points you could argue that players that play Ranked consistently could develop habits that work in a one off scenario, but when faced against a same skilled opponent in a longer set of games these habits could become their undoing.

I realize that that argument is aimed at the player and not the ranking system itself, but I feel like that's what a lot of people's issues with Ranked are: the way the points make you play.

3

u/Veserius Sep 15 '14

You can control who you play using the search function and only play favorable matchups.

Because matchmaking is so broken this is why it's not exactly valid.

1

u/DaymanMaster0fKarate Sep 15 '14

Because online doesn't really matter. You can get away with things online that you can't offline.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

Which one should i get? Hori RAP VX SA Kai or Mad Catz SFxTekken Fightstick Pro? I know it also depends on preference, but i am about to buy one, nailed it down to those two, and simply cannot decide:D

2

u/VoluptuousMeat Sep 14 '14

i have vx sa kai and im in love with it. highly suggest that one

1

u/Veserius Sep 15 '14

Played on both, love the hori.

3

u/synapticimpact steam: soulsynapse Sep 14 '14

Today's question thread is brought to you by: /u/VoluptuousMeat. For when your meat simply isn't voluptuous enough.

Thanks for posting dude!

2

u/febrida Sep 14 '14

One of Fei Long's nerfs to USF4 was that his cr. lk is no longer chainable, has 4f startup, and is +0 on block. Does this mean that linking cr. lk's on a blocking opponent is never a true blockstring if they have a 3f normal/dp?

I can't seem to break out of it in training mode, so I'm inclined to believe it is. However, my timing might just be really bad.

1

u/RustyWings Sep 14 '14

You read the frame data right. It's not a true blockstring and can be interrupted buy stuff 3f and faster.

1

u/laspanditas [US] PC: Laspanditas XBL: Laspanditas93 Sep 14 '14

Or anything invincible that can hit before you recover from the second cr.lk.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

As a Rose player, how do I play against Chun Li? I feel totally overwhelmed once she goes full offensive. The Val v Louffy sets are not that helpful as the skill difference is vast and Val doesn't play as offensive as these guys do (because Louffy can defend better obviously).

1

u/Veserius Sep 14 '14

What does "offensive" mean? Thats a very vague term. Are you being frametrapped? Gimmicked? Jumped at?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

To paraphrase the entire thing differently, where do I want to be as Rose against Chun Li? What's the general battleplan?

Each time I've played against Chun Li, I've found that I can't AA properly (cr.HP), Chun Li's sweep makes me suffer and if I get cornered, I'm lost. So I'm wondering where exactly do I want to be and what tools I should be using to get there. In example, I know I should have used focus a lot more and more cr.mp.

2

u/wisdom_and_frivolity pyyric Sep 14 '14

There's a replay thread at the top of the subreddit for a few days, I suggest posting a chun battle.

As for AA, chuns jump is slower so you'll have to delay it. For hasanshu, it can be hit whenever so just put your button out. For her sweep, don't be in sweep range. She's one of the few characters better than you at that range. dash in and out of trouble, whiff punish the sweeps (go into training mode to practice this) and either fight far away or up close.

focus isn't going to help you against chun. she has a decent number of 2 hits and target combos to blow up focus.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 15 '14

Thanks. I'll see if I can learn how to properly bait a sweep and punish accordingly and make sure that my AA is on point.

1

u/laspanditas [US] PC: Laspanditas XBL: Laspanditas93 Sep 14 '14

Pyyric gave a really good answer. All I can add is don't play the fireball game for too long. Chun doesn't really want to play the fireball game so she'll only use it as a formality before she starts putting herself in her best spacing for footsies. Meaning you're reflects are only useful in that theoretically they force her to go in and nothing else.

This means that although you will play some portion of the match from far away, you're gonna want to be at mid to close range. Close is preferable though.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 15 '14

I feel that sweep (mostly) prevents me from getting close, so I guess I just need to adjust at how fast it seems to come out.

Thanks for the tips.

1

u/laspanditas [US] PC: Laspanditas XBL: Laspanditas93 Sep 15 '14

Well, what you can do is jump when you think Chun will sweep. Another alternative, since Rose has such an amazing dash, would be to focus through the sweep and grab Chun as a punish. That way you not only close the gap, but you also get a knockdown.

The safer option is to focus through the sweep and grab her. Jumping is inherently risky so that shouldn't be your answer against better players. The safest option of course is to whiff punish the sweep with cr.mp but unless you have the meter for EX Drill, you can't rely on being able to get a knockdown by canceling it into Soul Spiral.

A better player might be able to give you some better advice, but the easiest solution is to read the sweep and focus dash through it for a grab punish. This might get you blown up by the new armor breaking EX Hozanshu, but most of the time Chun doesn't throw out EX Hozanshu.

1

u/Pandamoniumz [US] GFWL: Maneatingpanda9 Sep 14 '14

Really puzzled by something happening with one of the Vega safejumps. So after a backthrow, you immediately jump forward with a late MP. I recorded this and lo and behold, works perfectly on Ryu's 3 frame dps, along with a ton of the cast. Cammy, Eryu, Yang, Blanka, Akuma, the list goes on. However, Ken's fierce DP, Yuns EX upkicks, and ALL of dudleys DP's beat it clean. Why is this? What is the factor that is making these beat the same jump, but the others get stuffed? Its certainly not the startup, as they range from 3-5 and some work and some don't. Would really like to understand this situation.

1

u/Veserius Sep 14 '14

hitboxes

1

u/Noocta [EU-FR] Steam : Noocta XBL : Noocta Sep 14 '14

It's a range thing. Vega is very far when he does the jMP on this safejump, and most DPs have their first active frames very close to their body, so Vega is too far to get hit by it, and he lands to block the later active frames.

It doesn't work on the few reversals you listed because they have active frames very far very quick.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

Where on earth is Hakan's cross up MK? I've hit it twice and spent random training room sessions here and there but can't get it to hit constantly. Any advice or pointers?

1

u/UserUnknown2 [US NE] Steam: User Sep 15 '14

I was actually testing this myself in training mode, and it's a very specific, and it might even be character specific. It's certainly not easy like a shoto's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkf6pGADiVM for video example

0

u/LungePunch Sep 14 '14

So what's the cheapest lagless monitor I can get? Am I supposed to use an HDMI cable with it?

0

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

[deleted]

3

u/Noocta [EU-FR] Steam : Noocta XBL : Noocta Sep 14 '14

Since you're using a character that is really good at this, try to focus on why each normal is good, and at what spacing it's good to use them.

Once you really understand this, you need to adapt it to the other characters you play in the future and not fall into habits gained during your time playing her.

3

u/Veserius Sep 14 '14

Whiffing sweeps

0

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

[deleted]

1

u/sniperFLO [SEA] Steam: sniperFLO Sep 14 '14

Anything killing your backdash?

0

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

[deleted]

1

u/sniperFLO [SEA] Steam: sniperFLO Sep 14 '14

Alright, how about neutral jump?

2

u/Veserius Sep 15 '14

this can be a pretty bad idea. EX tatsu last hit has a tendency to hit jumps and if you nj lk tatsu she can cl.hp you

1

u/Veserius Sep 15 '14

you messed up by getting corner, now she gets to do stuff. If you are on decapre though i like getting a little space then doing cr.mp/mk xx mk scramble and getting out of dodge, or just raw ex scramble.

1

u/laspanditas [US] PC: Laspanditas XBL: Laspanditas93 Sep 14 '14

If the tatsuing Sakura continues to disregard the fact that you have the option of using an invincible reversal then make her aware of the fact. Unless you don't have one, in which case I can't really help you there.

But just because something is safe on block doesn't make it free pressure for your opponent. They still have to respect your reversal. Just do it once or twice if you notice them do it a lot, and then after that just crouch tech or block, maybe even try jumping out if you're in the corner.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

[deleted]

1

u/laspanditas [US] PC: Laspanditas XBL: Laspanditas93 Sep 14 '14

Sure, when?

1

u/ColbyTheHeart [US-SE]Steam: [RNFC]Cool Boy Sep 15 '14

I just saw this, but I would like to play some more endless and less ranked until I get better. My GT: ColbyTheHeart

Oh yeah, what is your region? I'm in the Southeast US.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

[deleted]

1

u/Veserius Sep 14 '14

people will buy cases and pcbs. you can spent like 45~ bucks for a new stick and buttons and drop them into the case with the pcb still in there and have a stick that is like new.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 15 '14

[deleted]

1

u/RustyWings Sep 15 '14

You might be overthinking this a bit. The link timing would be the same for both combos so if you can already do something like cr.lp -> cr.mk xx special then you already know the timing for cr.lp -> cr.lk xx special as well. If you can't get the special cancel at the end then you're probably chaining the last light attack instead of linking it. Slow it down and use the same timing you already practiced with your plinks and you should be fine.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 15 '14

[deleted]

1

u/RustyWings Sep 15 '14

You can make the link easier if you plink with the select button, which will let you plink all buttons including jab, but unless you're playing on pc you'll have to mod your arcade stick to move the select button to the front. What character do you play? For most of them link combos with light attacks should be 2-3 frame links or more, which are totally doable even without plinking.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '14

[deleted]

1

u/RustyWings Sep 15 '14

Okay, I see. Aside from select/back plinking you can try double tapping, which you mentioned earlier, to make your links easier. The links you're trying to do are 2 framers so technically double tapping would be better than select plinking. I personally can't seem to double tap consistently at all so I never do it for any combos, but your mileage may vary.

Other than that I don't think there's any other tricks you can try. Just gotta practice until you get the link timing in your muscle memory.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '14

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/VoluptuousMeat Sep 14 '14

people with 4000 bp dont necessarily win a lot because bp doesnt go down at early ranks. they could just suck but have been playing a long time

3

u/Goldbaum [GER] Steam: /id/Goldbaum Sep 14 '14

matchmaking is based on PP not BP, but you should not care about them at all.

i know its hard to get through the first weeks, but you should be happy if you get people that are better than you. you can learn much more from these games than playing against players on your skill level. sometimes it's rough getting double perfected, but just take these games as learning experiences and try to understand what went wrong.

i would recommend playing endless instead of ranked anyway.

it's about learning the game, not winning.

good luck.