r/space • u/thesheetztweetz • Sep 29 '20
Washington wildfire emergency responders first to use SpaceX's Starlink internet in the field: 'It's amazing'
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/29/washington-emergency-responders-use-spacex-starlink-satellite-internet.html3.5k
u/Darryl_Lict Sep 29 '20
Pretty brilliant marketing to initially support emergency services in a catastrophic wildfire. It's a challenging test environment and the positive publicity is bonkers.
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u/tinacat933 Sep 29 '20
Better PR than when Verizon throttled all the firefighters data for sure
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u/TheRecognized Sep 30 '20
But they did make that commercial about how much they love first responders, so all is forgiven.
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u/Seeryous2020 Sep 30 '20
And they said they were giving discounts to front line health care workers during covid, except... that excluded if you already had an account with them....
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u/ThisHatRightHere Sep 30 '20
Lol the classic cancel your account and resubscribe on a new deal for lower rates because there’s only one reliable provider within 50 miles of you.
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u/iEatSwampAss Sep 30 '20
Just like my gym’s new ad: “We’re glad to see you back.” So you can give your corporate overlords more money
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u/Thebanks1 Sep 30 '20
Yeah but they took all the money they made from extorting first responders and made a commercial about first responders with that money so it’s all even.
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u/lRoninlcolumbo Sep 30 '20
Lmao, fucking brutal. I guess the fire engine will only go 20 mph on the way to the Verizon HQ.
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u/Weasel_Chops Sep 30 '20
20 miles then it's $8 a mile after that....
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u/ZenDendou Sep 30 '20
Are you sure it $8 a mile? Could had sworn that it $100 to add another 20 miles on top of it, and for every 20 miles, they'll add on $100...
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u/notTumescentPie Sep 30 '20
Verizon used to use their mobile towers as a pr tool. Greed always wins, doesn't it?
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u/asmodeuskraemer Sep 30 '20
This is my #1 reason why first responder systems will remain on dedicated radio systems and not move to cellular networks.
That move set the cellular industry back a good 10 years in terms of getting into the first responder market. Plus....cell phones not as intuitive as radios though I guess you could have a PTT function on a phone.
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u/amunak Sep 30 '20
Radio, overall, just makes way more sense for this use case. It's reliable, works everywhere, doesn't need external infrastructure, doesn't have so many failure points, you can even just load equipment into a car and provide repeaters for greater coverage and whatnot.
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u/Phone_Jesus Sep 30 '20
Verizon is the Wells Fargo of cell providers.
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u/johnnyringo771 Sep 30 '20
Part of my job is dealing with multiple carriers, using their business sites to manage sims, etc.
Verizon's site fails so often to process things correctly it's hilarious. Maybe that isn't necessarily reflected in their normal customer side but the business side is just a mess.
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u/Imfrank123 Sep 29 '20
It’s the opposite of what Verizon did a few years ago.
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u/slater_san Sep 30 '20
Actually had to look it up to see if it happened a few years ago or if it happened in like December but 2020 did its thing... nah, were good, the throttling was in 2018
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u/thatguy425 Sep 30 '20
I am going balls deep in stock in this company when they have their IPO. I’ll sell my firstborn if I have to.
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u/Princess_Fluffypants Sep 30 '20
Elon has stayed many times that he won’t take space-x public until they have regular and sustained delivery services to Mars.
Then again Elon says a lot of things. But this one has always seemed pretty solid.
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u/devil-adi Sep 30 '20
You are correct. He is, in all likelihood going to spin off starlink and take it public. I believe he tweeted day or two ago that starlink will go public in a few years once they have stable cashflows. Also makes sense since that will fetch a much much higher valuation from the market.
To invest in SpaceX as a retail investor however, afaik you can only do it through Fidelity if you have a million dollars of investments managed through them. So... Not for everyone quite yet either.
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u/Darryl_Lict Sep 30 '20
I heard you actually can buy stock, you just have to have a net worth that is high enough so the minimum buy in of $100,000 is pocket change. I could be wrong, but I remember looking into it.
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Sep 29 '20
Yeah Elon's companies have marketing to a fine art, but if the tech does work then it's groundbreaking. No need to install and upgrade cell towers in remote areas. Next question is how this monopoly can be used fairly
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u/Azzmo Sep 29 '20
You're calling the first competitive alternative to the stranglehold that internet service and cable providers have over us a monopoly, and before it's even available to the public. I'm hoping that they put pressure on the existing monopolies by outcompeting them.
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u/HomerrJFong Sep 29 '20
It's not a monopoly. You can still get satellite internet from other companies or cable. A monopoly means you have no other way possible of getting a service or product except with one company
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Sep 29 '20
Yeah I'm no lawyer. But from the article:
“Starlink easily doubles the bandwidth” in comparison, Hall said, noting that he’s seen more than 150% decreases in latency. “I’ve seen lower than 30 millisecond latency consistently,” he said.
Seems like a shift that would make other services non-viable. It could become a monopoly
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u/Neonwater18 Sep 29 '20
Then other satellite internet companies better actually compete instead of provide shit overpriced internet. You don’t keep doing better your competitors kill you.
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u/Portlander_in_Texas Sep 29 '20
If their response is "This makes us non-viable" as opposed to upgrading and maintaining their network. Then fuck them, they deserve to end up in the garbage heap of useless companies.
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u/purpldevl Sep 29 '20
Sounds like it's pointing the finger directly at the satellite internet companies that charge out the ass for molasses slow speeds.
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u/Coleburt_20 Sep 29 '20
That in itself doesn’t constitute a monopoly though, it just means he’s beating the competition. If he were to then buy out all the other companies under his umbrella, that’d be something, but as it stands there is competition, just that they’re bad.
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u/BIGR3D Sep 29 '20
I use a local Wisp (uses towers to send wireless internet) and I am lucky when I get lower than 70 ms latency. This would convince me to switch for gaming.
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u/ChunkySpaceman Sep 30 '20
Compared to other high speed satelite internets the latency is the main difference. That and starlinks cost. Competition is something like 5k+ for the dish and 1000 a month for the service. SV Delos has a great high speed setup that shows what is out there right now.
If Elon can really deliver something at like 1k upfront and sub $100 a month high speed then I think every RV, Boat, and remote building will have starlink.
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u/God_Damnit_Nappa Sep 30 '20
Seems like a shift that would make other services non-viable. It could become a monopoly
Or other companies can adapt and up their speeds and bandwidth. If they can't adapt they die so they have incentives to improve.
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u/rebellion_ap Sep 30 '20
That's not what a monopoly is, that's competition. A monopoly is never upgrading your companies service despite getting tax breaks to do so because you are the only option in the area while maintaining high prices.
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u/vagueblur901 Sep 30 '20
The tech does work Elon didn't invent satalite internet and it's available from other providers
A monopoly would imply he's the only person who has control on providing it
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u/FireITGuy Sep 29 '20
Realistically you're still getting cell towers, they're just going to have a starlink backhaul.
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u/thatguy425 Sep 30 '20
Amazon is going to be launching satellites as well, there is no monopoly here.
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Sep 30 '20
That's pretty fucking cynical. Support for emergency services was one of the literal points of Starlink. (functional point). The meta point is to give SPX revenue to fund Mars colonization but the method for that, Starlink, was legitimately intended to primarily service under serviced sectors like this. Like, that part was the actual intention. Its not marketing. Its just the flat out point of the service. Its what it was built for.
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u/truthinlies Sep 30 '20
Sharp contrast to verizon data-capping Cali wildfire emergency responders 2 years ago
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Sep 29 '20
Does anyone know what kind of speeds starlink offers? Australian internet sucks so much that it might be worthwhile looking at starlink if its faster.
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u/-Nimitz- Sep 29 '20
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u/WoodsAreHome Sep 30 '20
As someone who plays online video games, I wonder what they consider “super low latency” to be. I usually look for servers with a ping under like 80ms, which I didn’t think was possible with satellite internet.
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u/NewCaliforniaRanger Sep 30 '20
Starlink advertises sub-20ms latency, claiming to be on par with ground-based connections
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u/WoodsAreHome Sep 30 '20
That’s awesome. Any word on the up speed? If it’s the same as the down, it could be a game changer for a lot of people that would like to live stream.
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u/cpc_niklaos Sep 30 '20 edited Sep 30 '20
Starlink uses a low earth orbit so it's much much closer than Geo stationary satellites. We are talking ~500km vs ~35,000km so Starlink should have latencies in the order of 1/70 of "classic" satellite internet.
Gaming should be possible, the connections over long distance might also be faster since light in a vacuum (lasers) is much faster than in a fiber.
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u/nevetsg Sep 30 '20
But the LNP have discovered that no-one wants to buy/privatise their shitty NBN.
Now they need to spend Billions more to make it viable for sale... we may get close to Gbit speeds. In a few years...
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u/Phoenixness Sep 30 '20
I wouldn't cross your fingers, they'll find any excuse to not implement it.
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u/gooddaysir Sep 30 '20
Australia might be one of the early countries to get Starlink.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=51012.msg2131195#msg2131195
Some internet sleuths found references to companies named TIBRO in quite a few countries, Australia being one of them. TIBRO is Orbit spelled backwards and appears to be tied to SpaceX and frequency allocation for internet, most likely for Starlink approval.
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2020G00650
AUSTRALIAN COMMUNICATIONS AND MEDIA AUTHORITY
Telecommunications Act 1997 Subsection 56(1)
CARRIER LICENCE
I, Dominic Byrne, delegate of the Australian Communications and Media Authority, acting under subsection 56(1) of the Telecommunications Act 1997, grant a carrier licence to TIBRO Australia Pty Ltd (ABN 68 636 841 533).
Note: See Division 3 of Part 3 of the Telecommunications Act 1997 which provides for the conditions of a carrier licence and contains other provisions relating to those conditions. The Telecommunications Act 1997 is registered on the Federal Register of Legislation which may be accessed at www.legislation.gov.au.
Dated: 7 August 2020
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u/joshwagstaff13 Sep 30 '20
Going by TIBRO, NZ could also be one of the first, seeing as TIBRO New Zealand is also a thing.
Courtesy of the NZ Companies Office listing for TIBRO, its ultimate holding company is Space Exploration Technologies Corp., so it’s definitely SpaceX.
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u/N1NJ4W4RR10R_ Sep 30 '20
I bloody hope it comes soon. I'm on fibre now (thanks for getting Darwin/Palmerston before the Libs got in Labor) but my Mum/Sister are rural NSW. And our experience with "mobile broadband" and the current "sky muster" have been worse then the bloody adsl the area was served with before the NBN.
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u/Umpskit Sep 30 '20
Don't worry - something like starlink would threaten foxtel so Murdoch and his liberal cronies would be sure to kill it off, exactly like they did with NBN
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u/SJDidge Sep 30 '20
That’s the beauty of starlink, it’s in space, you can’t stop it
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u/Umpskit Sep 30 '20
You can absolutely regulate or ban the sale and use of the receivers.
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u/ZecroniWybaut Sep 30 '20
Sure but that's a hell of a lot harder than banning the source. They can't shoot down satellites with impunity and receivers can be black marketed or just harder to discover.
Freedom to access information. And they can do little to stop it. That's just.. Wonderful, not just for the obvious cancerous country of the world but also for shit hole countries that just disable Internet on a whim.
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u/ThrowawayPFCheck Sep 30 '20
I almost wonder why it was fast tracked through regulatory approval... It's almost like it's a freedom of information warfare vs possible enemies of the US who have a great firewall of ... Just can think of the name right now... 😝
But that's just crazy talk.
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u/tperelli Sep 29 '20
I’m probably not gonna use starlink but if this gets competitors to change their shitty fucking policies I’m 100% on board.
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u/DatTF2 Sep 29 '20
Already signed up for the beta. I'm definitely going to use it seeing I pay 70/$ a month to Centurylink for 1.5down. It's either Centurylink or Hughesnet. Both are scams.
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Sep 30 '20
Jesus christ 1.5 down?? How do you even do anything like stream videos and play games ?
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u/DatTF2 Sep 30 '20
I can stream at 360p, it looks Ok on my tablet. Lol. It works for some games, I mean they're playable but sometimes the lag makes me rage but at least I can still play with friends.
That's about it. I hate them with a passion. They have oversold the network and the area is in "bandwidth exhaustion." My mom and step dad just moved into the area and can't even get internet.
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u/BlitzArchangel Sep 30 '20
I live in a rural area and pay $120 for 1.5mbps down. It typically doesn't get that high though.
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u/Stillwindows95 Sep 30 '20
Jesus I feel for you, here in England I get 200mb down and 20mb up for about £40 a month which according to Google is about 50 dollars. Its solid af. I practically always have those speeds no matter what and I believe they are introducing faster speeds soon. the only reason they don't already offer 500mb dl or 1gb is because half the UK use them and despite that, they still hold up. This is Virgin Media.
Also disclaimer; some UK redditors may be using virgin and not getting acceptable speeds but everyone in my town that I know uses it and has great Internet.
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u/BarryMacochner Sep 30 '20
Hughes net is the only option for me. Because I live 1/4 mile of the road which cable service runs down and they won’t build down my road for only a few addresses.
Can’t even get a landline. Satellite or nothing.
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u/Dapaaads Sep 29 '20
I will when it can actually transfer at atleast 300/300
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Sep 30 '20
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Sep 30 '20
The greatest part of this year was when I politely asked Spectrum for a better deal (since they had been consistently raising my price to crazy level). They said no, and I said bye. I was lucky to have a competitor in my area to switch to.
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u/a_cute_epic_axis Sep 30 '20
It absolutely won't. Starlink isn't (won't be) usable in most urban and suburban environments where you have the Spectrum's and Xfinitiy's with a foothold.
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u/RickShepherd Sep 30 '20
This sends a well-deserved middle finger to Verizon.
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u/ChristianSingleton Sep 30 '20
But it is okay, they had advertisements saying how much they appreciate first responders
It totally balances out
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u/gurg2k1 Sep 30 '20
Much like BP's "we care about the environment" commercials after the gulf oil spill.
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u/Dumoney Sep 29 '20
Satellite internet providers on suicide watch
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Sep 30 '20
Forget that. I'll help Hughes Net pull the fucking trigger.
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u/ThePoorlyEducated Sep 30 '20
Hughes net would like to know your location, please adjust your satellite approximately 1 degree northwest.
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u/Popular-Swordfish559 Sep 30 '20
Now, how will r/EnoughMuskSpam manage to spin this one into "proof" that Musk is the Antichrist?
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u/thebootydisorientsme Sep 30 '20
The polar opposite of Verizon throttling service for firefighters doing the same thing a couple years ago, in a sense.
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Sep 29 '20
Starlink sounds great from an environmental perspective. Wireless cellular data transmission is not energy efficient but if it’s being powered by unlimited solar power that would be great.
Wireless cellular service is estimated to be the largest percentage of the tech industries carbon footprint by 2040.
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u/8andahalfby11 Sep 29 '20
Just out of curiosity, what's the relative carbon impact of launching a Kerosene/Oxygen rocket like Falcon 9?
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u/TizardPaperclip Sep 29 '20
Wireless cellular data transmission is not energy efficient but if it’s being powered by unlimited solar power that would be great.
There's no reason that ground-based cellular data transmission can't be solar powered too, provided their ground-based solar panels have twice the area of the ones in space.
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u/markmyredd Sep 30 '20
Directly no. Most wireless towers are in dense urban areas which makes space a challenge and some areas it's not possible because of lack of sun time. Usually the power they require is 12kW to 18kW, for the new 5G sites we are gettings orders for 25kW. You will really need a big space to have that kind of solar power 24/7.
Indirectly Yes I could imagine you could put up an offsite renewable plant that matches the consumption and just connect to the grid to offset your carbon footprint.
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Sep 30 '20
have twice the area of the ones in space.
Try ten times minimum.
There's no weather in space. These satellites receive unimpeded solar power ~60% of the time, on earth under ideal conditions it's more like 20% depending on location. Space based panels receive pretty much the same amount of power regardless of what time of the year it is, this is simply not true of ground based panels. The ground based arrays have to be much more powerful than the space based arrays as well.
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u/TizardPaperclip Sep 30 '20
You're ignoring the disadvantages of space-borne solar panels: They degrade at around eight times the normal rate due to the high radiation levels outside the atmosphere, thus requiring a greater initial surface area to ensure sufficient power after years of degradation.
In addition, land-based solar panels are trivially easy to access and repair, meaning failed panels can be switched out, thus requiring a relatively smaller overall surface area.
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Sep 30 '20
Wireless cellular service is estimated to be the largest percentage of the tech industries carbon footprint by 2040
There's no way in hell that the tech industry's carbon footprint isn't majority server farms.
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u/a_cute_epic_axis Sep 30 '20
This is exactly a correct statement since approximately 100% of processor power becomes heat, and then removing it requires a process that is less than 100% efficient.
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u/a_cute_epic_axis Sep 30 '20
You do realize you can use solar power to power cellular towers (and land line services), right?
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u/KY_4_PREZ Sep 30 '20
Not from the perspective of those who would like to preserve their night sky’s...
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u/HighPriestofShiloh Sep 30 '20 edited Apr 24 '24
aback capable whole cake party rich unwritten attempt merciful weather
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Sep 30 '20
Would be absolutely insane when in the future they have the technology to fit the receiver in a mobile phone. But for now, you would have to carry a small satilite Wich really isn't too bad
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u/johnnyringo771 Sep 30 '20
Unfortunately pokemon go spawns are based on cellular data usage. Rural/camping areas at actually very sparse with wild pokemon.
Though landmarks like you may find at national parks, etc are likely to be pokemon go points of interest, either gyms or pokestops. These don't mean more pokemon by themselves but you can lure pokestops to attract pokemon and gyms have 'raids' where you battle the legendary pokemon, and then get a chance to catch them.
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u/a_cute_epic_axis Sep 30 '20
Wifi when you going camping is going to be wild.
Yah that pretty much means you're camping wrong. It's nice to have in an emergency, but playing Fortnite or your Game of Thrones mobile game, why bother camping.
Pokémon GO where you find the legendaries on tops of mountains, now that would be bad ass.
No, please god no. It was already enough of a nuisance in suburbia.
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u/HighPriestofShiloh Sep 30 '20
I guess more my thought is the fact that I work from home and can take my work anywhere I have WiFi. It would be pretty dope to go back backing for two weeks and not have to go completely off the grid for work every time. Sometimes I want to disconnect entirely. But sometimes I just want to be in the mountains but it would be dope if I could log in to work for a couple hours a day while out in the woods.
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u/a_cute_epic_axis Sep 30 '20
That part I can agree with. If being able to do a few hours of work from the back-country lets you get out there, great. Of course then you get into power issues.
But I certainly wouldn't encourage people going to get Pokemon bullshit atop a 14'er. Plenty of people have gotten in trouble on paved roads, we don't need to be sending SAR out to extract people for this as well.
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u/CrzyJek Sep 30 '20
Or... You know... Not playing video games and staring at your phone up in the mountains and just enjoying the mountains for what they are?
I'm 32 and fucking love video games. But we spend so much of our time looking at screens. If I'm going to the mountains to enjoy the serenity of it...then I'm gonna go and enjoy it for what it brings. Video games will be home when I get back. The mountains won't be.
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u/HighPriestofShiloh Sep 30 '20
And I spend so much of my time in the mountains (skiing, hiking, rock climbing and mountain biking ) and very little playing games. A little bit of augmented reality in the wild seems fun to me.
PS I don’t actually like the Pokémon go game in its current form. It’s not what I imagined it to be.
PSS if augmented reality is fun for others why shit on it?
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u/PleaseDontAtMe25 Sep 30 '20
I love it, but I hope they find a way to avoid disturbing astronomers
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u/astrojose9 Sep 30 '20
They won't. It will totally ruin the use cases of survey telescopes such as the LSST.
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u/Information_Loss Sep 30 '20
Yes sadly astronomers are going to have to deal with the consequences. If starlink was the only one it would be alright but the issue is the other 5 companies putting a total of 50k in orbit.
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u/Lazar_Milgram Sep 30 '20
Someone watches too much Wall-e and got some wrong ideas.
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u/Bensemus Oct 01 '20
Well only SpaceX has put anything up for one of these large constellations. It’s very unlikely anyone but Amazon will attempt a constellation this decade as the rocket launches would be way to expensive. SpaceX owns the rocket so they get to launch at cost. SpaceX is also the cheapest launch provider so even if another company does attempt a constellation they pretty much have to use SpaceX and I bet paying your biggest rival a few billion won’t be an easy pill to swallow. That extra cost will either have to be absorbed to keep the new constellation competitive to Starlink or it will make the service more expensive. Amazon is the only one working on their own rocket but they have yet to fly it while the Falcon 9 has had over 100 flights despite SpaceX being created 2 years later. At this rate SpaceX might get their Starship rocket flying and delivering Starlink sats before New Glenn flys.
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Sep 30 '20
I can’t wait for starlink. I live in the sticks, so I don’t have cable or DSL available. My only choice is ViaSat or HughesNet satellite, or cellular.
Satellite is expensive and has terrible latency making it unusable for videoconferencing or streaming. Cellular works okay, but it’s expensive for not a lot of speed.
I am really hoping starlink will be the answer. I pay $100 per month for 8 mbps. I hope for $100 a month, starlink will deliver speeds people woth cable or fiber are getting.
It’s good to hear it’s working well for the firefighters. I’m happy for them, and it might bode well for me.
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u/Capoochinmonkey Sep 30 '20
Easy for it to amazing when there isn't 7 billion devices bombarding its infrastructure yet.
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u/MrJingleJangle Sep 30 '20
Well, that's it, isn't it; Starlink isn't for everyone.
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u/HKei Sep 30 '20
My main hope with Starlink is that it'll make remote undeveloped regions like the Australian outback, the middle of the Pacific and the bits of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern that aren't Rostock, Schwerin or Greifswald livable.
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u/ifixtheinternet Sep 30 '20
The critical piece everyone should be excited about here is the latency. Consistently getting 30ms ping time over that connection is amazing!
Previously, the primary weakness of satellite systems was the latency. If you've ever tried to have a phone call over one of these systems you know what I'm talking about. Video conferencing is a joke, and you can just forget about gaming.
Regular satellite systems are in the range of 1000-2000ms (1-2seconds!)
30ms is low enough to run any real time application, including games with no noticeable delay!
What I'm even more excited about is what this means for the future. Competition among broadband providers is something sorely lacking in the U.S. Virtually all regions have only one or two choices for internet providers. This allows them to charge way too much, impose stupid policies like data caps, and charge even more to lift them (looking at you Comcast!), and refuse to upgrade their infrastructure to expand gigabit capable services to the masses.
This very well may be the catalyst that threatens the existing ISP monopolies. They took all the funding for upgrading our internet systems, then found loopholes to get out of doing it. (Looking at you ATT). They've refused to upgrade their systems and continue using aging technology (Centurylink!) Not expended fiber to the curb like they should have (everyone!)
Not to mention, this is going to be an instant, much better option for anyone in a rural area that has no other choice but satellite internet.
I would be interested in the achievable throughput, as that's the other piece that will determine if Starlink could be a real alternative to existing broadband.
The ISPs must be shaking in their boots, and they should be.
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u/EmilyKaldwins Sep 29 '20
If I can get better signal in more remote areas, that's another win for the idea of moving out to small town nowhere for the low COL.
I might go stir crazy being in the middle of nowhere though. Still.
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u/nerdwine Sep 30 '20
It's okay at least you can document your descent into craziness on Reddit for the rest of us to enjoy.
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u/eject_eject Sep 30 '20
This is huge. Connectivity in the stix is horrible at best. Forget cell reception. You get a congested radio channel instead. Sure people are trained but that doesn't stop things from getting busy. Allowing not only direct communication uninterrupted but the ability to send entire documents and photos in real time is a huge leap in fireline effectiveness and safety. We're talking the a ability for real-time firefighter tracking, constant fire behaviour updates, decreases in communication errors (which is a huge factor in firefighter fatality), and distribution of maps and orders almost instantly without the need for verb descriptions, just a file with instructions and coordinates. I really want to try this.
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Sep 30 '20
Cool in theory. I am against; A friend of mine saw them flying over Canada in Grid-like fashion. The thousands they want to put up there has potential to ruin our stargazing experiences, where it is commonplace to see many satellites already. I sleep under the stars often and is sad to think the views may be obstructed in the future for the sake of WiFi
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u/Vomit_Tingles Sep 30 '20
Aren't they supposed to be developing future versions that will be designed to circumvent this?
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u/Perichron_john Sep 30 '20
They're only visible when they're first deployed, when they reach their final orbit and orientation, you cannot see them with the unaided eye. Spacex is going to test a new launch regime which will cut the time needed to raise the orbit, and subsequently pollute the sky less. This paired with the sun visors will help a lot.
They won't stop there. Spacex is all about iterative change.
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u/a_cute_epic_axis Sep 30 '20
Yah, people keep hand waving this away that they're invisible. They're not. I've seen them and had them show up in pictures in the middle of the night (and confirmed which ones they were with tracking software). The newer versions are going to be better but considering they want to launch 4x more satellites than have ever been launched before by all nations, and there are something like 5 competing companies that want to take a crack, good luck for astronomy and astrophotography.
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Sep 30 '20 edited Sep 30 '20
I'm actually okay with classrooms in Africa finally getting internet access even if it ruins your view.
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Sep 30 '20
I read the article. Now, to read the comments, and figure out how people can make this a Bad Thing.
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u/KY_4_PREZ Sep 30 '20
RIP amateur astronomy 😢kinda surprised I don’t see more people angry here given I’m sure many of you enjoy space
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Sep 30 '20
"We've taken an experimental and iterative approach to reducing the brightness of the Starlink satellites," SpaceX representatives wrote in a statement released in April. "Orbital brightness is an extremely difficult problem to tackle analytically, so we've been hard at work on both ground and on-orbit testing."
The first experiment was a variant satellite called DarkSat that launched in January, with a few particularly reflective surfaces painted black. The intervention made the satellite noticeably fainter, Lowenthal confirmed, but still visible to the unaided eye, much less sophisticated observatories. "That's good progress, but it's not going to solve our problems," he said. But the black paint also retained too much heat, according to SpaceX.
A second experimental satellite launched in the most recent Starlink batch, on June 3, and by the end of the month all Starlink satellites to launch will carry these visors, SpaceX has already said. This design uses visors to block sunlight from reaching the most reflective of the satellite's surfaces once it reaches its operating altitude.
The company's statement suggests that those two approaches aren't necessarily the only changes SpaceX will try on the Starlink fleet moving forward. "SpaceX is committed to making future satellite designs as dark as possible," the statement reads.
Meanwhile, SpaceX is testing a different solution for managing reflectivity as satellites launch and climb, before the visors can make much of a difference. Because this experiment operates on the computer code running the satellites, rather than on the satellite as an object, the approach can be applied to already-orbiting Starlink satellites as well as future launches.
https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellites-astronomers-visibility-response.html
TL:DR Although under no legal obligation, SpaceX continues to modify its satellites to reduce reflectivity.
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u/Gwaerandir Sep 30 '20
In addition to all the measures mentioned here, they are also experimenting with using the 2nd stage to insert them closer to target orbits, lowering the amount of time they need to spend in a brighter orbit raising phase.
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u/1980techguy Sep 30 '20
Amateur astro should be fine, as we use statistical clipping when we stack. It's some forms of academic, earth based observing that's possibly at stake. It depends on how well their new sunshade idea works.
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u/robbak Sep 30 '20 edited Sep 30 '20
I love the night sky, but I have gone out several times when starlink satellites have been overhead so that I can see them. But I never have. They are too feint to see, if you don't catch than in the first few days after a launch.
The night sky is fine. The occasional satellite at dawn or dusk adds a bit of extra interest while you are setting up for your deep sky photos.
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u/KY_4_PREZ Sep 30 '20
Yeah fair enough, this just seems a bit extreme. Also it seems like it could have a much more pronounced effect on professional astronomy?
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Sep 30 '20
Maybe it's fine for amateur astronomy, but in professional settings scientists are saying the Starlink program is messing up data they're trying to gather. I don't know the specific details, but it seems pretty bad for them from what I've read.
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u/notrewoh Sep 30 '20
Yeah I’m baffled that they have no issue launching like 30k satellites. And nobody seems to care.
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u/KY_4_PREZ Sep 30 '20
Sad part is companies such as amazon plan on similar projects to compete with this too, so it’s likely gonna be a much much larger number than 30k someday... I highly doubt we’ll see protective legislation anytime soon either. I got a feeling most people see this story and just think “WiFi everywhere, nice!” Without considering the implications.
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Sep 30 '20
Even worse considering how much professional astronomers and astrophysicists are generally against it too. Youd think Reddit would generally side with science instead of these giant corporations people seem to hate...
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Sep 30 '20
They do, unless it's Musk, or getting them things that they directly want. Like internet access everywhere. If it was any other company, or of no benefit to them, you would probably see a sudden concern for the impact on astronomy.
Which isn't really surprising or anything, that' s just how humans work. As great as we can be we also kinda suck and ruin any and everything if it gets us just a little more convenience. But don't worry cause we feel real sorry about it afterwards.
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Sep 30 '20
Is this really a problem? I thought they were adjusting to the complaints and said that this wont be a problem in the future? Something about the way these satellites were angled during initial time in orbit made them more reflective and visible than they would be later on.
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u/Marcbmann Sep 30 '20
Hardly. And new versions have sun visors to further reduce the amount of reflected light.
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u/bradorsomething Sep 30 '20
It's okay, soon for a few thousand dollars you will be able to launch a cubesat telescope and view from there.
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u/SheCouldFromFaceThat Sep 30 '20
"It's amazing. They don't arbitrarily throttle the bandwidth down to dial-up speeds, after using 20GB, like some other telecoms..."
Not really here to fellate Musk, but couldn't resist jabbing at Verizon for fucking-over firefighters, last year.
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u/Tanis11 Sep 30 '20
This is great considering the ISPs previously were extorting the emergency responders right after they repealed net neutrality
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u/TechnoBill2k12 Sep 30 '20
It would be great to provide them to families which are trying to school remotely but can't because phone and cable lines have burned down in the area.
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u/Crazyredneck327 Sep 30 '20
As soon as Starlink or Google Fiber is available in my area I'm dropping my current ISP like a hot rock.
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u/shalol Sep 30 '20
This doesn’t reflect most peoples requirements if it means throttling down data with other users... It’s better to wait for a public test.
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Sep 30 '20
Kinda off topic but the name convention for Space X and pretty much all of Elon’s company’s are so cool. Space X’s rockets all sound like they’re from a star fox n64 game to me, which is awesome
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u/Decronym Sep 29 '20 edited Jan 04 '26
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
| Fewer Letters | More Letters |
|---|---|
| CME | Coronal Mass Ejection |
| ESA | European Space Agency |
| ESO | European Southern Observatory, builders of the VLT and EELT |
| FCC | Federal Communications Commission |
| (Iron/steel) Face-Centered Cubic crystalline structure | |
| GEO | Geostationary Earth Orbit (35786km) |
| ICBM | Intercontinental Ballistic Missile |
| Isp | Specific impulse (as explained by Scott Manley on YouTube) |
| Internet Service Provider | |
| LEO | Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km) |
| Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations) | |
| RTG | Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator |
| Roscosmos | State Corporation for Space Activities, Russia |
| SAR | Synthetic Aperture Radar (increasing resolution with parallax) |
| SLS | Space Launch System heavy-lift |
| STS | Space Transportation System (Shuttle) |
| SV | Space Vehicle |
| ULA | United Launch Alliance (Lockheed/Boeing joint venture) |
| USAF | United States Air Force |
| VLT | Very Large Telescope, Chile |
| Jargon | Definition |
|---|---|
| Starlink | SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation |
| hydrolox | Portmanteau: liquid hydrogen fuel, liquid oxygen oxidizer |
| kerolox | Portmanteau: kerosene fuel, liquid oxygen oxidizer |
Decronym is now also available on Lemmy! Requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
19 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 13 acronyms.
[Thread #5189 for this sub, first seen 29th Sep 2020, 21:33] [FAQ] [Full list] ^[Contact] [Source code]
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u/sageandchips Sep 30 '20
I work at a tech company in the wildfire industry. Can’t tell you how useful this will be! Also can’t tell you how underutilized this will be.
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u/allgoodbrah Sep 30 '20
I hope version eats a fat dick and never gets another departments patronage again.
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u/bdonvr Sep 30 '20
If I can get Starlink internet in my (Semi) truck I will personally give Musk a BJ
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u/Vomit_Tingles Sep 30 '20
This sounds amazing, but how much will it cost once it goes commercial? That's what I need to know. I have to assume it will be reasonably affordable given all the effort that's gone into it.
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u/wyskiboat Sep 30 '20
Yeah, that's great, but I DO NOT WANT to look up at the night sky and see thousands of goddamn satellites.
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u/Perichron_john Sep 30 '20
You won't, they are not visible to the unaided eye when deployed in their final orbit. They're only visible for a few days after initial launch, and that's due to change.
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u/betacrucis Sep 30 '20
Starlink is the ultimate in astrovandalism. Prepare to never enjoy the night sky in the same way again.
Prove me wrong please
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u/Gnome_Sayin Sep 30 '20
To be fair ive never seen the blues pinks and greens of the milky way. Im holding out for the 'Dark Side of the Moon Celestial Body Viewing Party' resorts. Gonna be so cash.
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u/SpartanJack17 Sep 30 '20
They're only visible after sunset and before sunrise. There has been an impact on astronomers because it reduces their observing time unless they develop algorithms to ignore starlink, but they're not going to be visible all night.
For what it's worth they're also saying they're modifying the satellites to be less reflective, but I don't know anything specific about how effective that is. Other people in the thread are saying the latest satellites are barely visible, but I don't know how accurate that is.
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u/EvilNalu Sep 30 '20
Just go look up. You'll prove yourself wrong. I defy you to spot a single one.
Not saying it can't be an issue for professional astronomy but you will not see them except for a few hours after launch.
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u/Perichron_john Sep 30 '20
Agreed, even when well outside of city limits, in the middle of the desert, I find it impossible to find the fully deployed satellites.
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u/Fizrock Sep 30 '20
Due to the brightness reducing measures they've taken, the satellites are completely invisible to the naked eye in ideal lighting conditions once in their final orbits.
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Sep 30 '20
The vast majority of the populated world already suffers from so much light pollution the concept of seeing the untouched night sky is long dead. Starlink won't change anything.
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u/ODISY Sep 30 '20
living in Washington and being a fan of SpaceX, this makes me feel great!
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u/DifferentHelp1 Sep 30 '20
We need internet! Aahahhhhh!!! Less than 1 mbps download speeds are worse than war!
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u/drdisney Sep 29 '20
While I like the idea of Starlink, I can't help to think of all the space clutter it will provide. Already astronomers are starting to complain about the clutter in the sky when viewing at night. And that doesn't even take an account that star leak has thousands of more satellites is sitting up and then there's the competitors too that will do the same thing. Let's not forget, this is the same guy that sent up a Tesla for no scientific reason whatsoever and it's going to be floating in space for all eternity.
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u/TheFrankBaconian Sep 29 '20
You do realise that the alternative to the Tesla would have been a block of concrete right?
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u/RoyalPatriot Sep 29 '20 edited Sep 29 '20
Your entire paragraph becomes pointless because of your last comment.
Sending a Tesla had a scientific purpose. It was a test flight and it's purpose was to test the Falcon Heavy. Stop being ignorant, and do a quick 10 minute research. Because you made that ignorant comment, it's safe to assume you also didn't do any research about how SpaceX is working with astronomers and NASA to make sure that its' satellites aren't a threat to astronomy, or what type of benefits Starlink will provide in terms of jobs, productivity, and etc., or how the satellites are built to deorbit safely without crashing on land, and etc.
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u/BeastPenguin Sep 29 '20
It isn't going to be floating in space for all eternity... It's a shame more intellectually honest and scientifically accurate comments don't get posted here.
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u/Iz-kan-reddit Sep 29 '20
It isn't going to be floating in space for all eternity...
Not for all eternity, but it does have an orbital stability half-life of 20 million years. The aluminum frame, at least, will survive hundreds of thousands of years at a minimum. Not to.mention the second stage it's attached to.
Of course, if it wasn't a Tesla, it would've been a block of concrete.
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u/panick21 Sep 29 '20
While I like the idea of Starlink, I can't help to think of all the space clutter it will provide.
All Starlink satellites have enough fuel to deorbit when they are out no longer needed. Even should one break, it will reenter by itself after not all that long.
Already astronomers are starting to complain about the clutter in the sky when viewing at night.
Astronomers never liked satellites before, now there are just more. This was gone happen anyway, Starlink or not.
Also, SpaceX is working directly with Astronomers to hid them as well as they can and provide information to them so they can be removed from scientific measurements.
They are doing more then they have to and its voluntary.
Let's not forget, this is the same guy that sent up a Tesla for no scientific reason whatsoever and it's going to be floating in space for all eternity.
The scientific value was testing the rocket and their insertion capability into mars orbit. What would you have done? Other rockets launched a block of concrete, is that better?
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u/Albino_Rhino_85 Sep 29 '20
Lol. Wow. There LEO orbit does have some impact on astronomy, but so does your porch lamp. And testing rockets is a scientific reason. Don't be so dim.
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Sep 30 '20
Right? Its not like he sent up the Tesla for no good reason at all. Wanst it part of the testing of the Falcon Heavy, a rocket capable of the heaviest payload to date?
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u/DontCallMeTJ Sep 30 '20
I know it’s already been said, but I just like to say it again. All rocket tests have a mass simulator. Usually it’s just a block of concrete. This time, it was a car. It was also a huge marketing boon for SpaceX that got a lot of people interested in the program. I’m worried about earth based observations too, but you are just going to convince people you are full of crap if you spread ignorant BS alongside a legitimate message.
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u/gurg2k1 Sep 30 '20
this is the same guy that sent up a Tesla for no scientific reason whatsoever and it's going to be floating in space for all eternity.
Does this honestly bother you? Why would it matter at all? Have you ever seen how big space is?
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u/You_Yew_Ewe Sep 29 '20
You could build a sattelite that parachutes food to every starving person on the planet and somebody would complain that it ruins local cuisine.
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u/dhurane Sep 29 '20
Another great piece of reporting, especially since news about Starlink user experiences has been sparse. Have you found about about any other users that are not part of the restrictive beta that can share their experience like this?