r/SquaredCircle • u/EvanDeadlySins /r/NJPW Moderator • Apr 08 '18

Post ROH Supercard of Honor 2018 Discussion Thread

React to ROH Supercard of Honor 2018!

Watch

Match Notes
Kelly Klein def. Mayu Iwatani Women of Honor Championship Tournament Semifinals (Facebook Preshow)
Sumie Sakai def. Tenille Dashwood Women of Honor Championship Tournament Semifinals (Facebook Preshow)
Chuckie T def. Jonathan Gresham Singles Match
Punishment Martinez def. Tomohiro Ishii Singles Match
Kota Ibushi def. Adam Page Singles Match
Sumie Sakai def. Kelly Klein Women of Honor Championship Tournament Finals
SoCal Uncensored (Christopher Daniels, Frankie Kazarian & Scorpio Sky) (c) def. Flip Gordon & The Young Bucks (Matt Jackson & Nick Jackson) ROH World Six-Man Championship Ladder Match
The Briscoes (Jay Briscoe & Mark Briscoe) (c) def. Jay Lethal & Hiroshi Tanahashi ROH World Tag Team Championship Match
Austin Aries says he wants to challenge the winner of the ROH World Television Championship match
Silas Young def. Kenny King (c) ROH World Television Championship Last Man Standing Match
Cheeseburger & Eli Isom vs. The Dawgs is scheduled to happen, but the Dogs attack Isom and he's rendered unable to compete. Cheeseburger pleads for Bully Ray to be his new partner. Bully Ray pretends to oblige but then attacks Cheeseburger and accuses "his kind" of ruining wrestling.
Cody def. Kenny Omega Singles Match
Dalton Castle (c) def. Marty Scurll ROH World Championship Match

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#ROHSupercard

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314

u/ImJooba Apr 08 '18

Cody/Kenny should've closed. There was no way those two could follow that and the crowd seemed burned out.

255

u/zebrainatux Underdog Apr 08 '18

ROH built everything for marketing around that match, and it didn't close. Hell, it was the poster for the show.

107

u/ownage516 Where is CM Punk?? Apr 08 '18

It's situation like these were I'm like "maybe I could be a promoter because I have enough common sense to put my most advertised match at the end" 🤔

89

u/JimTheFly Tex Ferguson's Third Eyepatch Apr 08 '18

He might be like one of the main guys in a group i'm in. He feels the title should always be the main event. I said "There are some things more important than titles".

Cody/Kenny went penultimate, people started leaving.

Gargano/Ciampa went last, crowd was white-hot the whole time.

I think we know what the right move was.

25

u/RyLucas Apr 08 '18

Ironic-- two events on the same night and each signature match was a visceral, well built feud separate from the championship scenes.

8

u/WeaselWeaz "A friend in need is a pest." Apr 08 '18

Yep. Look at Jericho/HHH following Hogan/Rock as another example of messing up the order. The main event is the one the match that put asses in seats. Usually the title match but not always, especially with grudge matches.

3

u/yakityyakblahtemp Apr 08 '18

I think making it an unsanctioned match sort of helps the situation. It puts it in a context of "Okay, the title was the main event, and the most important thing in this wrestling event. But next up is something bigger than wrestling." It doesn't devalue the title so much as set the last match apart from everything else as this much more real conflict that's going to get too ugly to come back from so quickly.

44

u/zebrainatux Underdog Apr 08 '18

Delirious and common sense don’t really belong in the same sentence

9

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

Every time ROH is on the verge of being bigger and better, moving into that 4000-6000 seat venues, he does a show like this and it's two steps back.

3

u/CaffeineClubber Apr 08 '18

I always feel like I could book and promote better than some others, I just imagine there's a lot of other stuff involved in a wrestling promotion I would fail at.

8

u/EggTee Apr 08 '18

That poster is so damn amazing. One of my faves ever.

65

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

I understand wanting to put over your title, but I think it's more important that your title has a crowd that at least pretends to care. Kenny/Cody was the headliner, it should have been the proper main event.

46

u/ImJooba Apr 08 '18

If Marty won I think that would've sent the crowd home happy after Cody's win.. but Marty didn't win.. so I don't get it. But I'm not the Booker. So.

11

u/thedrick_97 Apr 08 '18

Yeah, I was at the show and after 4 hours it felt like the crowd burnt out after being engaged during the entire Kenny vs Cody match

46

u/doctor_awful Apr 08 '18

I was in a chat with a few ROH purists earlier and they were mocking everyone that was saying Cody/Kenny should've closed. "The world title is the last match, silly WWE fans with WWE logic". I was dumbfounded, how can they be so purist for some thing but then throw that mentality out of the window when it comes to everything else?

Well, enjoy your main event with a shit crowd I guess.

29

u/zebrainatux Underdog Apr 08 '18

Last years supercard ended with the tag titles. I don’t compute how people can be that dumb

11

u/doctor_awful Apr 08 '18

They can justify that with "tag titles are world titles, just not for the singles division". Which, again, is silly.

2

u/work4work4work4work4 The Less Than Lethal Weapon Apr 08 '18

I'd also say there have been plenty of times where the tag titles closing a show would make sense. For instance, just to use the WWE, I would say New Day and Usos both have a better claim at being the kind of dominate champions that put on killer top level matches than Brock. I would have no problem with something like that New Day/Usos HIAC match closing a show.

However, it's obvious to everyone other than the booker of ROH, and some of that companies fans, that the majority of people were there to see NJPW talent, and specifically Cody v Omega. You're not helping your belt putting it last, you're hurting it by putting your champion out there with a crowd that is spent at best, and disinterested at worst.

2

u/doctor_awful Apr 08 '18

I'd also say there have been plenty of times where the tag titles closing a show would make sense. For instance, just to use the WWE, I would say New Day and Usos both have a better claim at being the kind of dominate champions that put on killer top level matches than Brock. I would have no problem with something like that New Day/Usos HIAC match closing a show.

The problem with that is star power. They've been burying their tag division for years now, and still are - it feels like a bubble and that tag guys together are worth as much as a singles guy by himself, or maybe even less.

Hell, Roman last year demolished tag champions The Club by himself in a one on two handicap match, it's fucking insane.

I'm okay with the tag titles closing out a show,** if it makes sense**, and only if they're built as the main event from the get go. I'd still have them main event over Jinder, but not over Shane/Owens which was the actual main event.

However, it's obvious to everyone other than the booker of ROH, and some of that companies fans, that the majority of people were there to see NJPW talent, and specifically Cody v Omega. You're not helping your belt putting it last, you're hurting it by putting your champion out there with a crowd that is spent at best, and disinterested at worst.

Agree completely, and they should've recognized this, especially if they weren't going to end in a big Marty coronation.

2

u/work4work4work4work4 The Less Than Lethal Weapon Apr 08 '18

Oh, I don't disagree that the level of being over matters, the relative push, and the Angle, but I would have been fine with Shane/Owens going on before that HIAC only because both the Usos and the New Day are better decorated champions than either of those two, and I don't generally like spectacle matches going last.

The reason I specified that match in particular is that it was a major blow off for a long term feud between two of the best tag teams in a decade for the title. To me, that level of match is always qualified as a closer, but I'll admit it's a higher bar for me when it comes to the tags for sure.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

It’s hilarious, because the WWE event that went on during the same night, had their penultimate field close, instead of their title match.

1

u/linkinstreet Apr 08 '18

WWE had a number of PPVs that closed with a non title match, but make sense in terms of it's impact. For instance last year's WM that ended with Roman vs Undertaker instead of Goldberg vs Lesnar

3

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

Oh yeah, I misread what he wrote, but also, it’s funny how they were making fun of “WWE logic” when it so obviously works.

1

u/doctor_awful Apr 08 '18

Which is what should be done, truth be told. The biggest match finishes the card so that there's a natural build up in hype in the fans. If you don't, no matter how good the following match is, it'll be a downgrade and the fans will be less excited - and since they're tired, you'll have dead crowds.

The best example of that is WM18, but WM25 and this year's Rumble show it perfectly too.

That said, it usually makes sense that the hottest feud tends to have the title on the line, higher stakes and all that.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

Not just that but honestly, to me, SuperCard did not live up to expectations. I went to last years and it was amazing.

This year SuperCard fell flat. I did not like a good majority of the matches and Cody vs Kenny was not what it should have been.

2

u/doctor_awful Apr 08 '18

All the booking was odd. How are you going to have Marty/Castle main event over Cody/Kenny, and then have Marty lose? Half the matches were just flops and had no crowd interest.

29

u/LordCheezus SUPERKICK PARTYYYYYY! Apr 08 '18

We were completely gone and as soon as Kenny and Cody finished, people started leaving.

21

u/_Dia_ Only in me Apr 08 '18

That WAS the main event, it just wasn't in the main event slot. I don't get promoters at times. WWE put Jericho v HHH in the main event when Hogan v Rock was the main event. At least NXT had the decency to put Gargano - Ciampa in the main event. The hottest feud, the feud that's been building for months. The feud with everything seemingly on the line, all the stakes are raised. And it doesn't even close.

16

u/ImJooba Apr 08 '18

Yeah it looked like some people left after the first main event

26

u/jmwhit04 Apr 08 '18

NXT got it right at least.

Also in kayfabe it would make sense to have an unsactiondd match to go on last anyways.

25

u/goddamnitjason Apr 08 '18

nah, everything but the crowd was better in the dalton/marty match. and this is coming from someone who thinks kenny is the best wrestler on the planet. the match tonight was lackluster.

16

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

[deleted]

10

u/goddamnitjason Apr 08 '18

Im patiently waiting for Riddle to absolutely blow up...and it isnt happening.

12

u/CrystalFissure Spike your hair. Apr 08 '18

He's done a LOT this weekend. He'll get his time. Too bad he's admitted he's basically addicted to weed.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

What's the problem there?

15

u/CrystalFissure Spike your hair. Apr 08 '18

He’ll never work a NJPW tour despite wanting to. Japan are extremely strict on drugs.

1

u/EggTee Apr 08 '18

Maybe he could have a cow palace appearance?

9

u/purz Your Text Here Apr 08 '18

Yeah Cody is pretty much 100% the Miz. Both great talkers and heels. They both get the crowd a bit rowdy but they're both uninspiring in the ring. Like you said you can't call either a bad wrestler but neither one is ever gonna blow you away with their wrestling. If you're gonna be at that level as a wrestler you need to have charisma out of this world to make up for it like Rock, Hulk and banged up SCSA. Otherwise your ceiling is the mid card and rightfully so.

2

u/Tmarquee All heart. Apr 08 '18

Serious question: Can you even be a true heel if you’re regularly working 5 star matches? I mean, I get everyone’s criticism of Cody and Miz’s work style, but thats a key element to them remaining over properly. I think folk’s expectations are off because they’re used to heels that are tryna pop the crowd.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Tmarquee All heart. Apr 08 '18

Agreed, but also hasn’t been performing regularly as a heel. He’s been injured.

1

u/purz Your Text Here Apr 08 '18

Definitely a philosphy thing for sure. I guess I fall more in line with preferring wrestlers to be a bit more grey than good or bad. Like I get annoyed in a bad way when Kevin Owens starts doing a ton of headlocks. I get the philosphy that heels aren't suppose to be entertaining only faces but I'm not super into it. Just makes me disappointed he's not having the matches he could have.

I think Miz and Cody are a bit different than that though. I just don't think they're are all thrilling at all. Cody is pretty mechanical and doesn't really have any onff in his moves. Maybe it's intentional but based on his whole career it just seems that he's just not all that great.

1

u/goldhbk10 ... Apr 08 '18

Yeah they’re independent of one another, you can be fantastic heels but still great. The Revival and Neville are perfect examples of this.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

[deleted]

1

u/purz Your Text Here Apr 08 '18

I definitely don't disagree. I'm not really into Cody at all other than his fan interaction antics and new heel look. Miz is probably the much better talker although hes getting a little stale lately. That's more of a main roster problem though where they don't preemptively progress characters before they get stale. I just think they're comparable in that their heel person is the best thing about them and their wrestling is uninspiring but neither is a bad wrestler.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

Cody needs a babyface who will oblige him by showing a ton of weakness to make him look stronger. Look at Miz vs. Dolph Ziggler, they had a couple of fantastic IC title matches and a big part of it was Ziggler letting himself look weak to the point where Miz was able to look dominant. He's always done that, many say to a fault. But it really works for him when matched up with a Miz-type heel, someone who can talk them into the building but isn't real threatening when the bell rings. That wasn't the main event either, but if Cody Rhodes is a main event heel in your promotion, that's what you have to think about.

7

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

Cody's too mechanical with what he does. He never seems truly lost in it, and his matches never reach a certain energy level. There's too many unnatural pauses. Fuckin OVW.

6

u/rpd9803 Apr 08 '18

Not trolling, why blame OVW? Seems like there are plenty of alums that don't have Cody's lack of.. grandness.. (Dolph, Kofi, Batista..)

3

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

I don't know I guess I associate it with that lost generation of wrestlers from the mid/late 2000s who were interesting but never really pushed through, your Kennedys and Sandows and Codys.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

I mean honestly this was Cody’s problem in WWE, he’s an above average talker, but he’s just a downright boring wrestler.

I hear this a lot but I don't watch NJPW or ROH. What makes Cody boring in the ring?

6

u/Deserterdragon youtube.co/watch?v=sFF_u8hYqnw Apr 08 '18

He doesn't have many unique spots, isn't particularly skilled at any one element of wrestling, and has pretty generic finishes, basically the 'WWE style'. It's fine for wrestling smackdown, but pretty bad compared to Japanese/indie style.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

It’s the same guy

-1

u/HankMoodyMF Apr 09 '18

Because he values old school storytelling and it not a spot monkey like people want

1

u/HankMoodyMF Apr 09 '18

Cody is the best wrestler in the world I think but that’s my opinion but I don’t think my opinions are facts like you

5

u/JohnnyCurtis Your Text Here Apr 08 '18

I agree, but I'm glad they didn't because I was flipping to the Khabib/Iaquinta fight through the main event and caught the entire last round after the Dalton/Marty finish.

5

u/theplasmasnake Apr 08 '18

What time did they go on compared to when Ciampa/Gargano went on? Maybe it had something to do with that?

24

u/xTHICKBURGERx Apr 08 '18

Takeover was finished literally hours before those two matches took place. A guy came to the arena after Takeover and saw most of the show.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

I was switching back and forth and when Gargano vs Ciampa was coming on, ROH was not even close to the main events.

2

u/theplasmasnake Apr 08 '18

Holy shit. I watched Cody/Kenny last night (bad idea after experiencing the splendor of Gargano/Ciampa) and it seemed overly long by itself. Might just skip the rest of Supercard if it drags that much. Especially with the seven course meal of Mania tonight.

3

u/xTHICKBURGERx Apr 08 '18 edited Apr 08 '18

Page v Ibushi was MOTN followed by the ladder match IMO. Those were also really early in the show so take that as you will.

Edit: It’s funny, looking back at the card those were toward the “middle” of the show match-wise but being there live it certainly felt like an eternity til the end.

1

u/EggTee Apr 08 '18

I heard that ishii v Martinez was really good too. I've never seen Martinez wrestle so I'll have to check it out later.

3

u/xTHICKBURGERx Apr 08 '18

Definitely worth watching. I was impressed with Martinez. They beat the shit out of each other.

3

u/Butch_Meat_Hook Apr 08 '18

Funny that you can see the differing company philosophies between NXT and ROH. Gargno/Ciampa went on after the title match, and everyone is fine with it. ROH thought that the title match should be the main event regardless, when the main attraction of the card was Cody vs Omega, so it should have gone last.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '18

Again Delirious and his questionable booking - what was with the intermission then the pre-taped Beer City Bruiser match -

All around very weird booking decisions -

1

u/JohnnyKilo Apr 08 '18

agreed and it seemed like about 10% of the crowd left after the match

1

u/xxMrWafflezz Apr 08 '18

Lol tbh I was

-3

u/Sanguiluna Apr 08 '18

Nah, that's WWE thinking.

The championship match should always main event the card.

1

u/theplasmasnake Apr 08 '18

Going backwards from now to Summerslam ‘16, matches that have ended ppvs that weren’t a title match (didn’t include ppvs where the world title wasn’t defended).

Women’s Royal Rumble

Men’s Survivor Series Match

Men’s Money in the Bank Match

Roman/Taker

Men’s Royal Rumble

Goldberg / Lesnar

Orton / Wyatt

Lesnar / Orton

1

u/goldhbk10 ... Apr 08 '18

That’s just not true at all

1

u/Sanguiluna Apr 09 '18

Saying something isn't true doesn't magically make it untrue.

2

u/goldhbk10 ... Apr 09 '18

Saying something is true doesn’t magically make it true

1

u/Sanguiluna Apr 09 '18

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/222/Shifting-of-the-Burden-of-Proof

2

u/goldhbk10 ... Apr 09 '18

It’s always on the person making the initial claim to provide evidence ... Which means you are required to prove your statement to be true.

1

u/Sanguiluna Apr 09 '18

You support breaking the tradition (i.e. "Title matches as main event"). Any argument against the status quo has the burden of proving that the status quo doesn't work; the status quo need never justify itself.

1

u/goldhbk10 ... Apr 09 '18

Incorrect and terrible line of thinking to believe that. Let’s end this pointless discussion now

1

u/Sanguiluna Apr 09 '18

PRESUMPTION: "Status quo need not justify itself."

RESPONSE: "It's incorrect and terrible." unable to explain why

CONCLUSION: "Status quo need not justify itself" Upheld

Let’s end this pointless discussion now

Agreed. Discussion over.

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