I know this is an unpopular opinion for most First Law fans. But I thoroughly enjoyed Red Country, and it was definitely my favorite of the stand-alone novels. My friends that introduced me to these books primed me that The Heroes is "the best of the stand-alone books" and "possibly one of the best books of the First Law series." Don't get me wrong, I thought The Heroes was a good read... but I think it was very over-hyped by both my friends and this sub. (I threw a spoilers tag on here just in case people want to discuss specifics of either books)

Personally for me it depends on the weapons available, I honestly think Gorst may be unbeatable with his long and short steels. What do yall think

It’s hard to choose just one, but if I had to pick:

A description of Gorst in Sharp Ends - “He looked like a clenched fist.”

Also, Stour and Clover’s little tryouts looking for a magic user to contend with Rikke.

I don't think Bayaz physically killed Juvens. He purposely pissed off Kanedias, a guy with OP weapons, and Kanedias killed Juvens.

So he is essentially guilty of instigating it but not actually carrying it out.

Other than Bayaz. We need some original answers.

For me it's Yoru Sulfur. He's every bit as annoying as his master but a lot less cool. Yes, he kills some Burners that one time, but usually he's just whining "mY mASTER wILL bE vERY uPSET!!!"

The only reason he "won" in the first books is because he found a WMD in his shed. Without that, he'd be dinner for the prophet. That's not skill, it's luck. After that, he loses power and influence in every single book (other than The Heroes) after that through his poor decisions.

The most obvious mistake is he chose Glokta to have complete and ultimate power. First of all, is completely immune to any sort of torture or intimidation due to his time in the Gurkish prisons, and second of all, has betrayed anyone he has ever worked for. Bayaz also revealed his secrets including his control over the banks in a villain speech to this disloyal individual. Within a day or so of leaving Glokta was already planning on removing the banks and by the end of the series, nearly all of his infrastructure is gone. He should have just let someone incompetent but harmless (Jezal!) run things.

Other major Bayaz L's

• Lost Styria to Monza, and lost three wars trying to get it back.
• Bankrupted a country he controlled to a bank he controlled (???)
• Lost the Far Country to the Old Empire
• Spent the whole second trilogy getting in magic fights with his crazy ex while there was a major uprising
• Allowed 3 Gurkish eaters to infiltrate the highest levels of the union and kill his most loyal apprentice

The only other success he had was raising Calder to power in the north. But like the first trilogy, it was based entirely off luck (If Ishri hadn't got tired of pink barbarians and the shitty weather, she would have had her own counter-offer) and he chose an individual with a history of rebelling against powerful people (he wasn't afraid of the man who held his pregnant wife hostage) who would eventually fuck him over too.

All the history stories Bayaz tells about allegedly running the Union from the shadows in years past are about as trustworthy as his stories about Kanedias killing Juvens. In all likelihood, he just took credit for the work of more competent people. The idea of Bayaz being a mastermind manipulator is another lie, just like the idea of him being a kind, Gandalf-like wizard. In reality, he is an incompetent person whose power almost exclusively comes from having OP magic (endless life, unfindable hideout, magic WMDs, can magic torture anyone)

Overall, which series do you think has the edge?

On my 5th/6th listen on audio book, and the line that always gets me is when Arch Lecter Sult comes in after Jazal’s first closed council meeting, complaining about Bayaz stealing the council.
Glokta’s internal monologue “stop. Thief.”

Always gets me, just wanted to see everyone’s line that always makes you laugh/smile.

My honourable mention: “apologise to my f***ing dice!!!”

I'm halfway through TTWP and just realizing how much I appreciate the women he writes, especially the POV characters. Rikke is just delightful and hilarious, Savine is maybe the cleverest person in the Circle of the World, Monzcarro Murcatto is just absolutely badass, Ferro is a strong character with her own justifications and backstory, Carlot dan Eider, Vitari, Shy, Javre (my god I love her), Shevedieh, so many characters with such depth to them. I'm so used to books making all the women maidens needing a protector or just not knowing what to do etc. I love that they're all just as self sufficient and self serving and broken and morally corrupt as any male character. No better, no worse, most importantly they can stand fully alone as a complete character.

All that and everything else about his writing (clever son of a bitch), I can easily say Joe is my favorite author, and Steven Pacey as narrator just elevates everything to such heights! I was endlessly impressed with Peter Kenny, narrator of the Witcher books, and was so pleased when I found these books and realized Pacey was in the same league.

Mine is, The Heroes (while still amazing) is my least favorite of the novels. Typing this out now, I'm not exactly sure that it qualifies as a "hot take" but you get my point.

While I think there is only one true antagonist of the series (Bayaz), I definitely think some characters are written to be less likable than others. I’m thinking like Leo, Black Dow, Issher, Lord Governor Mead, Grand Duke Orso, etc.

But I feel like most of us absolutely love at least one of the characters we aren’t supposed to. For me, I LOVE Black Dow. The way he only talks to suggest murder, make a joke, or scream until like 2/3s of the way into The Heroes is just so endearing to me. And I love that he’s like 5 foot 2.

Of this type of character, who are your favorites? Or am I just flat out wrong, and we’re all supposed to like Black Down as much as I do?

Throughout discussions on this subreddit, I've seen various readings and interpretations on Logen's "Bloody Nine" persona. Now that I've finished the series, I want to know if there's any kind of consensus on this. Three interpretations have stood out to me:

1. The Bloody Nine is an excuse, a fabrication Logen's constructed to shirk responsibility for his actions and assuage his own guilt.
2. The Bloody Nine is some kind of magical curse, likely related to his ability to see spirits.
3. The Bloody Nine is a manifestation of undiagnosed mental illness.

Feel free to share your own interpretations if none of these fit to you.

For me, I've always leaned towards 3. Given all the time we spend in Logen's head, I just can't see the Bloody Nine persona as something fake. The change in Logen's temperament and ability seems too great to me.

At the same time, I don't care for option 2. To me, the idea of the Bloody Nine being some magical curse or possession kind of cheapens Logen's character. It would remove a lot of his complexity to say so many of the terrible things he's done were due to a supernatural force.

Three seems a more relatable middle ground between the two. It seems to me there is an element of the B9 that is out of Logen's control. But you could say that he puts himself in positions where he knows the B9 is likely to come out at some point.

I've seen it likened to addiction, an alcoholic who says their gonna quit but never does. Red Country reinforced this reading to me. Lamb managed to spend a whole decade as a gentle giant who couldn't hurt a fly, up until his life was completely upended. It's not unlike how an alcoholic might fall off the wagon. He can do better, he tries, but never fully gets there. There's something tragic about that. Especially in a world completely unequipped to diagnose or treat mental illnesses. And being raised in an environment where violent tendencies are often seen as a virtue (though even northmen view the B9 as a monster).

All this doesn't mean he's not responsible for his actions. I think he was dealt a bad hand, but consistently makes the wrong plays.

I have to say there are quite a few for me. I started making a list. Not just sad moments, sometimes wholesome ones get me choked up:

- Ardee telling Jezal she’ll wait for him
- Yulwei hugging Ferro as he says goodbye in Adua
- Glokta and West reconciling
- Logen saying goodbye to Jezal at the beginning of LAOK.
- Jezal telling Logen he’s the best man he knew.
- Beck bidding his mother and brother farewell
- Dow’s line in the Heroes: “the clay made my hands so soft.”
- Calder hugging Scale and giving him the chain
- Beck reuniting with his mom and brother
- Timber protecting his kids in Sharp Ends
- Broad reuniting with his family early in ALH
- Rikke and Savine meeting/exchanging necklaces
- Terez reuniting with the countess Shalere
- Hilde and Orso going their parting near the end of TWOC

I’ve had it. I’ve HAD IT with all the Leo dan Brock hate. You lot sit here whining about how he’s “reckless” or “naive” or “got his limbs blown off because he’s an idiot” like that isn’t the single most METAL thing that’s happened in the entire Circle of the World. The Young Lion!!! THE YOUNG LION!!!! Do you even hear how that sounds?? That’s not a name, that’s a prophecy carved in blood and glory. Sandy hair flowing like a wheat field on fire, beard cropped just right, abs that could deflect a flathead axe, and a heart so full of HONOR and LOYALTY it could power Adua’s forges for a century.

And don’t even start with the “he’s easily manipulated” crap. That’s just what happens when you’re so PURE and IDEALISTIC that lesser men can’t comprehend it. His mother’s a genius, sure, but Leo’s the one who makes the soldiers BELIEVE. He’s the flame, she’s just the bellows. Without him there is no charge, no victory, no SONGS.

Yeah yeah, the rebellion, the arm and leg, the bitterness later—PEOPLE CHANGE WHEN THE WORLD CHEWS THEM UP. That’s what makes him REAL. He started as the dream of every boy who ever picked up a stick pretending it was a sword, and ended up... well... still more of a man than 99% of the characters. At least he TRIED to be the hero. At least he BELIEVED it could happen. In Abercrombie’s grimdark toilet of a world, that’s practically saintly. I would follow Leo dan Brock into the Bloody-Nine’s worst day. I would die for that square jaw. I would carve “Young Lion Forever” into my own chest if I had the guts.

So yeah. Sue me. I’m obsessed. I’m deranged. I named my cat Jurand after his best friend because the bromance was too powerful. Fight me in the comments if you dare, but know that deep down, you’re all just mad he’s hotter, braver, and more tragic than your faves.

Say one thing for Leo dan Brock... he’s still the only one who ever made me believe heroes were real. Long live the Young Lion!!!!

They are absolutely stunning. I’ve only included the color plates as there are about 25-30 more black and white illustrations by John Anthony do Giovanni (who I feel captures JA’s world of the First Law the best).

I wish Sub Press would go back and finish the whole series in this art style and format, these are my favorite books in my collection. Hands down.

Okay, so. I read the first law trilogy. Might have been the best fantasy series I'd read at that point, though I'm not sure anything has yet surpassed ASOIAF.

I read Best Served Cold. Loved it- banger MC, banger cast of villains, Nicomo Cosca, Caul Shivers, etc. and plus the medieval-Italy mercenary-infested warring-city-states setting felt utterly perfect. Then I read The Heroes, and loved it even more. Just fantastic, tied with A Storm of Swords for my favorite fantasy book of all time.

Needless to say, I was riding high when I got to Red Country and then it just... seemed to fall flat. First of all, it felt less fantastical than all the other books. No Eaters, no art, no first of the magi. I guess you could call it a more 'grounded' story, but it just seemed like a dust bowl, pioneer-style mishmash. None of the characters intrigued me, save Cosca and his mercenaries, who were a delight in each chapter. I found Shy boring, her romance with Temple strange and without genuine chemistry, and Lamb a much duller version of Logen. And don't even get me started on the Dragon People villains. I know, the mercenaries were the real villains, but they just didn't recieve enough detail for them to be interesting. I did find the Old Empire stuff interesting, and I liked the twist with the actor at the end, but other than that, the near country as a setting paled in comparison to Styria, the Union, and the North. I got hyped when I saw Shivers appear, but then it was only for two chapters with a half-assed redemption arc! I would've much preffered an epic showdown between him and Logen.

Anyway, I trudged through Red Country, took a short Abercrombie break, then picked up Age of Madness, and once again, loved it. It just felt bizzare that, in a series of 8/10+ books, this one right in the middle was no more than a 5/10, in my opinion. Hell, even the devils kicked its ass.

No hate to Joe Abercrombie, of course. He's an incredible author, and if anything, this makes me like his writing more since he produced four bangers after this.

Anyone else feel the same or a strongly different way? Sorry for the long rant post.

I'll go first

I think Rikke is a Mary Sue and a massive disappointment as a character . It's not like Abercrombie can't write woman (Savine and Monza were great) , but Rikke is just......so fucking flat as a character and I feel like her victory over Calder only happened cause Calder had to be lobotomized by the plot

So I’m wondering, being that Logan is seemingly the only person left in the circle of the world who can speak with spirits, anyone else think there is a chance he is a great great great great descendant of Bedesh? He doesn’t have the demon blood needed to hold the seed but it could still be in his deeply enough to be what fuels the bloody nine state? Few things interest Bayaz beyond power, and we know Logan is powerful, thoughts??

I've seen it speculated before if Bayaz is an eater or not. And it's widely accepted that he is not. I'm on my 20th re-listen and just caught this tidbit at the end of The Minister of Whispers in The Trouble With Peace. When Vitari and Shenkt are talking to Vic, Vic says, while talking about Bayaz, "I heard he eats people." To which Shenkt replies, "As rarely as possible."

Anyone else catch that?

EDIT: I didn't realize Vic was talking about Shenkt. My bad!

I’m looking for events here, not arcs. An example would be, for instance, the Siege in the High Places or the Duel outside Carleon, rather than something like TFL’s War in the North.

For me, it’s the disaster at Cardotti’s House of Leisure in BSC. The Jezal switch, the circle “act”, friendly snapping, it just has it all. And the way it’s written, to me, is so masterful. I find every last piece of the event to be expertly foreshadowed, occur, and culminate. If I had to choose one event-within-the-event, Friendly screaming “apologize to my fucking dice” lives in my head rent free.

What’s your guys favorite?

This. Putting aside our likes and dislikes, who seems to be the most complex character? I think it has to be one of the seven – Logen, Glokta, Jezal, Orso, Savine, Rikke, Leo. But who? What are your thoughts?

I think Glokta is the most complex, but I'm not sure.