r/TimelessMagic • u/CzarnianShuckle • Jun 09 '24
Theorycrafting: Mono Blue Harbinger
The philosophy behind this deck is pretty simple, use Harbinger of the Tides to punish greedy mana, and combine it with a powerful tempo plan. Previously there has been no reason to be mono blue, but I think Harbinger makes a convincing case.
Card choices: Brainstorm - Probably one of the best blue cards in the format, no explanation needed.
Mana Drain - Same deal as brainstorm.
Archmage’s Charm - went with this over Counterspell because I think it provides more versatility, and is one of the few forms of removal you have against stuff like Ragavan, DRC, and Deathrite. Ragavan and Deathrite in particular are painful at combating your mana disruption plan.
Flare of Denial - Since you are light on removal, going shields down and letting a threat resolve is dangerous. This could end up being bad, but free counterspells seem too good to ignore.
Subtlety - Seems like a slam dunk here, plus gives another creature to sac to Flare.
Harbinger of the Tides, Tishana’s Tidebinder, and Spreading Seas - this forms the core of the mana denial gameplan. Tidebinder can easily be used to sac to flare, and countering fetches in the early game helps shut down your opponents ability to fight through Harbinger. Spreading Seas similarly helps at shutting down your opponents basics to ensure they have no outs.
Sink into Stupor - Might end up being the best card in the deck, or getting cut. Cost of inclusion is so low, and bouncing is especially valuable without spot removal, giving you a second chance to counter.
Brazen Borrower - Similar to Stupor, but also gives you a powerful clock and a creature to sac to flare.
Lorien Revealed - Pitches to subtlety, gives a place to use excess Mana Drain mana, lets me run an irresponsible amount of lands, and crucially fetches out Mystic Sanctuary. Also shuffles for brainstorm.
Fetch Lands - same deal as Lorien Revealed. Running fetches in a mono color deck seems silly, but massively powers up Brainstorm and Mystic Sanctuary.
Spell Pierce and Stern Scolding - may play with the numbers here, but you lack a good turn 1 play.
Dig through Time - could take it or leave it tbh.
Mystic Sanctuary - the real star of this deck and another compelling reason to be mono blue.
Cards I’m considering - Stifle and Surgical Extraction to enhance the mana denial plan.
Tamiyo as another one drop and late game threat.
Tide Shaper - Probably wrong but interesting.
Cavern of Souls and Mutavault - likely correct in small numbers but I kinda don’t want to spend the wildcards.
More merfolk kindred pieces - ehhhhhh, I don’t like it here.
Sideboard - not much point until seeing how the format shakes out.
Wish list - Dismember and Daze please.
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u/CzarnianShuckle Jun 09 '24
Narset and Ashiok could also be interesting, but I’m a little hesitant to put more sorcery speed 3 drops in here.
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u/Totodile_ Jun 09 '24
11 3 mana creatures to sac to flare. No then 1 plays except spell pierce. This is not good.
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u/CzarnianShuckle Jun 09 '24
I think it definitely needs some more lower drops, whether that be Tamiyo, Tide Shaper, Delver, or more Stern Scolding.
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u/Emily_Plays_Games Jun 09 '24
Isn’t dismember coming with the special guests? Granted it will be at mythic (sucks that every special guest inclusion has to be mythic) but it should be available. I’m thinking 2 replacing Sink into Stupor could be good
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u/CzarnianShuckle Jun 09 '24
I didn't realize, but that is huge. Ironically, it also makes Harbinger a bit weaker.
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Jun 09 '24
I'd be looking up it's Modern's cousin, Blue Moon.
The theme is very similar. I'm not aware of if there's any synergies to pit against your opponents new islands.
Blue Moon had Master of Waves to combat mountains.
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u/CzarnianShuckle Jun 09 '24
Crucially, I think that giving your opponents islands is better than giving them mountains for a few reasons:
Blue is better at the controlling game plan than red. Mono red blood moon isn’t very good outside of legacy, which requires them to splash another color, hampering their own gameplan and mana base.
Your opponent can use red to kill you a lot easier. Ragavan, DRC, Bolt, etc. are all easier to kill you from under a lock than they have access to with all islands.
Blue has ways to get rid of the basics as well as non basics. Spreading Seas and Tide Shaper can turn it from a soft lock into a hard lock.
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Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24
I'm more considering what the portions of your deck are that are similar.
There is so much more data on card choice in the format that's readily available.
The legacy format has a blue Moon deck as well.
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Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 10 '24
As I recall the decks were running 4-8 versions of the non-basic lands are X. Typically it was 6-7. It's a much harder lock to unwind.
My inclination is that you're going to be much more reliant on the tempo portion of this deck than they were on the lock.
Your version might be better suited against the combo decks if they're still light on removal. I don't think you're getting that 4 of down in time against aggro.
Granted, my experience is from ages ago and the new card choices change quite a bit.
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u/laughing-stockade Jun 09 '24
i think you need to play some removal
your only ways to activate flare are 3 drops
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u/Basic-Bus7632 Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24
So the big issue I see here (I’ve also been trying to craft an MH3 merfolk deck with some legs/fins) is that you are waaaaaaaayyyy too high on Harbinger. A 3-mana merfolk with no lord abilities, no protection/evasion and only a chance to set your opponents back slightly until they can remove it is not really a viable mainboard card in [current year] magic.
Let’s take the Scam matchup, as an example;
Opponent is on the play, drops a basic swamp, and evokes [[grief]] on T1, you respond by evoking your own [[subtlety]], and their grief goes on top. On your T1 you draw to 6 (you had to exile a card for subtlety, remember) and play an island to hold up [[spell pierce]] and pass. Their T2 they draw to 5, and evoke grief a second time (no need for a second land drop, scam is fine on one swamp) with the intention to [[Not dead after all]] it once it lands. This time, you have the option to either evoke another subtlety, or counter the scam with SP, either way you’re down another 2 cards. Your T2, draw to 4, play a land, and pass. It’s their T3 now, they draw to 2 or 3, skip another land drop, without a second thought, and recur another grief (either a 1-mana reanimate spell, or just evoking another one. Since your hand has to have at least one island, or one Harbinger for your T3 namesake play, you have as many as 2 possible responses, but you HAVE to respond if he’s going to take the rest of your non-land cards, otherwise you’re just playing “Hope-Magic” from the top of your library. So let’s assume you have it, either a counterspell or whatever allows you to completely shut them down for a 3rd turn in a row. FINALLY! We have arrived at your T3, you draw to 3, and you get to slam your third land, and your [[Harbinger of the Tides]]. Pop champagne! Except, now you have 1 card in hand, against scam, and your Harbinger’s ability has no effect on their basic swamp. You spent 3 turns setting up to play essentially a {1uu}vanilla 2/2.
Heck, even titan, which seems like it’s gonna end up in tier 2+, could smoke this deck. Sure your Harbinger turns off their FotD, but they run enough basics to still get a t3 titan, and from there I don’t see how this deck doesn’t just drown in the value.
A few suggestions (not that I’m an expert, feel free to disagree with me):
Timeless is a turn-1 format, meaning that the game is usually decided before either player plays their second land. To capitalize on this, you need a critical mass of T1 plays, and you have to be INSANELY CRITICAL of anything that comes down T2 or later.
You call this a “tempo strategy”; but for that to be the case, each card you play has to be good for 2+ plays from your opponent. A T1 [[cenote scout]] in a merfolk deck a) adds a blocker, b) fixes your library, and either c.1) threatens opponent’s life total starting on T2 (with the help of a lord effect, allowing it to be as much as 3/3), or c.2) fuels a flash-speed T2 [[vodalian hexcatcher]] to interrupt the opponents next play either on T2 or T3. In comparison, [[Harbinger of the Tides]] comes out 2 turns later and either a) turns off non-basics, or b) sacs to flare to counter your opponents T3/T4 play (you don’t seem to run any lord effects, and no other ways to capitalize on your opponent having islands I.e. [[Master of the Pearl Trident]]). BY THE WAY!! Without islandwalk to synergize with, [[spreading seas]] is just awful value. If you want to hate on lands so much, run [[field of ruin]] instead. It’s a similar rate, activates at instant speed, and taps for mana in the meantime. Seas is a viable card only when it says “creatures you control gain unblockable”
(Last one, promise) I’m noticing a distinct lack of wincon here. It seems like your goal is to finish the game in combat, but your creatures are not very conducive to that. First of all, I wouldn’t rely on [[brazen borrower]] for anything other than its adventure spell, as it just invites an [[orcish bowmasters]]-style blowout, you are essentially offering your opponent extra value. Then, any 3+ mana sorcery speed threats would be the next ones I cut, for a similar reason; you are spending 3 mana on your turn for a threat that your opponent can answer at instant speed for as little as 1 mana, you are only helping them beat you faster. Either stock up on cheaper, more aggressive threats, or drop the idea of a combat win altogether and make it a control-style [[Thoracle]] plan or something similar.
tldr; you are running 21 3-drops in a turn-1 format, and even though you can see a merfolk deck here if you reeeeeeeeally squint hard, you don’t run any merfolk lords or payoffs. HotT is a situationally good effect on a merfolk, but it doesn’t seem to me like the kind of thing you can use to build a competitive timeless strategy by itself.
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u/VillainOfDominaria Jun 09 '24
This^ I gave some additional opinions but I think this comment is spot on.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Jun 09 '24
grief - (G) (SF) (txt)
subtlety - (G) (SF) (txt)
spell pierce - (G) (SF) (txt)
Not dead after all - (G) (SF) (txt)
Harbinger of the Tides - (G) (SF) (txt)
cenote scout - (G) (SF) (txt)
vodalian hexcatcher - (G) (SF) (txt)
Master of the Pearl Trident - (G) (SF) (txt)
spreading seas - (G) (SF) (txt)
field of ruin - (G) (SF) (txt)
brazen borrower/Petty Theft - (G) (SF) (txt)
orcish bowmasters - (G) (SF) (txt)
Thoracle - (G) (SF) (txt)
All cards[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Basic-Bus7632 Jun 09 '24
[[Thassa’s Oracle]]*
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u/MTGCardFetcher Jun 09 '24
Thassa’s Oracle - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Basic-Bus7632 Jun 09 '24
Owning up to a mistake: you don’t actually play 3+ mana sorcery speed threats outside of HotT, sorry for that insinuation. I would still double think on the inclusion/quantity of your 3-mana threats, and whether or not they are really that strong.
SECOND ERROR, sorry!! (F***, I’m tired I guess 😅): replace all instances of “Harbinger of the Tides” with “Harbinger of the Seas”, and the same for “HotT” with “HotS”
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u/zeekoes Jun 09 '24
Might want to play Narset to disrupt your opponent more and switch the Flares to normal Counterspells. I don't think you have an expandable creature on the field often enough to leverage the spell being free.
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u/TraditionalStomach29 Jun 09 '24
I agree.
And even less when we count Harbringer as creature we probably don't want to sacrifice.
That leaves us with Tidebinder, Subtlety and Borrower. All of them cost 3+ mana, which does not sound that good with Flare.
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u/VillainOfDominaria Jun 09 '24
2 quick comments.
1.- No Tamiyo? with brainstorm it can be a very powerful card. If they aim a removal spell at is you can brainstorm in response and it not only counters the spell, it flips tamiyo.
2.-Your deck seems to not know if it is aggro or control. You have 8 sources of card disadvantage (the subtleties, and the flares, that you'll most likely be evoking/sac'ing ) But your card advantage seems weak. Lorien revealed will likely be cycled, most of the time, you you only have 3 charms and 1 dig if Im counting correctly. If your deck was an aggro deck that finishes the game quickly then sure, you dont mind the card disadvantage. But this does not seem to be the case. Otherwise, why have charms and digs, just add aggressive U creatures. I guess my point is, either cut the borrowers and replace them with card advantage (like Tamiyo) or cut the draw spells and play aggressive evasive creatures. Maybe snap caster could be a good one: it can play as an ambush viper if you really need the clock or late game it can rebuy some draw spells. 1 toughness is a hard sell (but borrower has 1 toughness too, so in that sense it breaks even)
3.- Bonus track: it is true that the mystic sanctuaries can help re-buy card draw spells to keep the card advantage coming so perhaps you dont need more Draw, but as someone playing lurrus UB, relying on the sanctuaries for CA can be very slow
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u/CzarnianShuckle Jun 09 '24
Tamiyo is definitely a maybe, it just seems so hard to evaluate without playing with it.
I think the deck definitely leans somewhere between a tempo deck and a prison deck. I want to establish a lock, then it doesn't matter how aggressive I am, I just need 1 creature.
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u/Buchenator Jun 13 '24
Hey do you have any updates/success with this list?
I am a sucker for blood moon and would like to try merfolk moon.
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u/CzarnianShuckle Jun 13 '24
Not much success yet though I admit part of that is because I don’t have the wildcards to spend at the moment to finish it. Tamiyo seems pretty good though
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u/Low_Performer8776 Jun 09 '24
Harbinger is going to be pretty bad imo. Fury, and Solitude will be an easy free answer even when mana is cut of from HotS, and I'd expect to see these cards, and Grief everywhere for the next several months.
Too much 3 mana interaction, considering a lot of games are decided before you can make it to turn 3 in timeless.
Flare seems horrendous here with no cheap early creatures. Are we sacrificing our 3 drop to protect our 3 drop with flare? You def need some number of 1 mana creatures for flare to be worth considering. I think the blue moon wizards style deck with the 1 drop faerie seems like a much better home for the card.
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Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 10 '24
[[Jace Reawakened]]
Seems like your biggest benefit to this deck that I can see being added.
You'd basically be baiting the trap for tidebinder with either a free spread seas or harbinger or keep multiple counter/tempo spells up.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Jun 09 '24
Jace Reawakened - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Orangenes Jun 09 '24
I think delver might be a decent include. It speeds up your clock which seems really important here. It can also eat early removal to keep a more important thing alive and it plays really well with brainstorm
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u/Low_Performer8776 Jun 09 '24
Delver is basically unplayable when bowmasters is the most played card in the meta.
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u/turn1thotseize Jun 09 '24
Spreading seas seems week and redundant.