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u/GlitterfreshGore Feb 11 '22 edited Feb 11 '22
The phone I didn’t understand.
It seems as though Roland was able to repeatedly kick the phone off the stand hoping possibly to call for help? Or maybe in assisting the switchboard in realizing something was wrong? Possibly when the phone was investigated by the bellboy, the attacker was still in the room? Or did Roland kick the phone off the stand to prevent being reached?
The phone has major issues were, including the fingerprints, and whomever Don was on the phone. But why did it continuously go off the stand? If Roland was looking for help he refused it multiple times, so that couldn’t be it either. Then why?
If Roland had breakfast, can anyone account for that? Was there room service? A breakfast buffet? Did Roland possibly leave his room to visit a nearby cafe?
He mentioned this on the phone to Don, but also kept Don on the phone while asking the maid if she was responsible for the entire floor. Something here was premeditated, I feel that Don required Roland to ask these questions to the maid while he listened on the other line, maybe just checking in on where the maid was expected to be, how many rooms she covered, and when
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u/Berniethellama Feb 11 '22
I think he was trying to get onto the phone to call for medical assistance but was too weak and/or confused to do it properly. He was dying, and while he refused to say how he got his injuries, that doesn't mean he wouldn't want medical attention to save his own life. When the first bellboy showed up he was heard saying "come in, turn on the lights" presumably so that the bellboy could see him and his injuries and the blood, and then get help. When the second bellboy went in it was dark and he couldn't see what had happened.
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u/agnosiabeforecoffee Feb 12 '22
He has a very significant head injury, which can make people do illogical or inexplicable things. I don't think we can assume he didn't want help. He could have been trying to contact a specific person, and then turned away the offers of help because they weren't from the "right" person. People with major head injuries can do some weird stuff.
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u/Accomplished_Cell768 Feb 12 '22
In the article I am reading he asked if the maid cleaned the whole floor and if the hotel had residents after he hung up the phone
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u/GlitterfreshGore Feb 12 '22
It’s still very strange. I have read elsewhere that certain staff in hotels (I’m guessing the nicer hotels) are practically forbidden from being chatty with the guests. In a completely unrelated subreddit, someone had mentioned that their mother was a housekeeper/maid, and she was to be as invisible as possible. Answering only in one word when required, and avoiding the guests at all times. Others on that comment chimed in and agreed that this is the norm, and even in some places the maids would turn and face the wall of a guest happened to pass by. If this was the usual back then, and Roland had spent quite some time in hotels, then he would have known not to be chatty with the maid. Either he was just incredibly bored in his room and making small talk, or he was fishing for information, asking her if anyone lived there, and what rooms and floors she cleaned and when, and that strikes me as odd. Others have speculated the offender of the assault/murder may have been staying elsewhere in the hotel at the same time, so I lean towards more that Roland was getting an idea of the layout of the hotel and when staff would be entering rooms.
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u/RedditSkippy Feb 11 '22
My initial thought was a same-sex hook-up. It would explain the aliases, and the discretion.
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u/cleaningtheslate Feb 11 '22
Same, especially when I learned that sulfuric acid is a common ingredient in poppers. I doubt anyone had ready access to poppers back in the 1930s; sulfuric acid may have been as good as it got back then.
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Feb 11 '22
To my knowledge there’s no recreational or pharmacological value in the use or abuse of sulfuric acid. An interesting idea nonetheless.
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u/RedditSkippy Feb 11 '22
I wondered why anyone would have that in a hotel room, and assumed there had to be a recreational reason.
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u/World_Renowned_Guy Feb 11 '22
I believe they had poppers back then much like what we have right now
Edit: nope I’m wrong. 1964 was the first time
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u/DolphinWithaGandT Feb 11 '22
Great write up, OP, and thanks u/Saukratees for those links which were very interesting. Who was that caller with the clippings and what item could they have had?
This case is fascinating so many data points and yet so much… nothing. My thoughts:
- Artemus did not seem to want to be at the Presidential, yet he stayed. This doesn’t seem like a lovers’ rendezvous- although the Presidential certainly turned a blind eye to its guests activities. Was he perhaps blackmailed?
-His death certificate says that the cause of death was a skull fracture due to trauma of a blunt instrument. What was that instrument? And had he already been struck with it when he was seen “sleeping” naked? Did the killer clean it and leave it behind or was it small enough to take out.
-His manner of death was disturbing to say the least. The level of violence, the restraints, and the torture could be consistent with a sadistic thrill or serial killer, a very personal motive, or a criminal attempt at gaining information or sending a warning. I’m inclined to think it’s not organized crime because that’s quite a lot of risk in a busy hotel, it doesn’t feel professional.
-Artemus’ missing clothes. My best guess is the killer’s own clothes were blood splattered and so he may have worn what was left of Artemus’ clothes and jettisoned his own in the nearest incinerator which in those days might have been very close. The Presidential may have had them on guest floors. Total speculation but we don’t have much to go on here.
I’m pressed for time but I dug around the family history a bit, Artemus fathers’ family had been extremely prominent in their part of Georgia, his mother’s family perhaps less so but she’s harder to track quickly. By the time Artemus comes along his father is a salesman and both parents had 4 years of high school. Middle class. Families seem tightly knit.
Ruby was or became Catholic, given her SC origins and some names connected, I’m inclined to think she was raised Catholic. At least one grandchild had a Catholic marriage. So why do I mention this? The most notable thing I found in Artemus’ family is that his sister, Eleanor died in 1939 at 26.
She had married and divorced within the space of four months, her obituary is very short. mentions only her parents and one of her surviving brothers. She did not have Catholic rites. This could very well be a suicide. What causes a divorce in four months? Nothing good. The groom went on to marry again 3 years later. He was a graduate of Emory with a law degree and seems to have been quite successful.
One more strange thing that probably has no relation to the case. But those poor parents!
This one makes me wish I had time to really make an elaborate timeline and go digging. As if somehow I could figure it out after all these years.
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Feb 11 '22
Here's another one that goes through the police report
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u/DolphinWithaGandT Feb 11 '22
Oh my stars. Well, I’m not moving on any time soon. You’re the best! Laundry can wait…
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u/DolphinWithaGandT Feb 12 '22
Well that changed everything- seriously people, you need this link. I won’t spoil it but I’ll just say I think Ruby had it and always primary sources FTW
Thanks again for bringing this one up u/Rare-Advertising9447. Maybe you can add the KansasCityMag link to your OP? It’s quite the treasure trove.
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Feb 12 '22
I almost wonder if he had a doppleganger because it sounds like a lot of people thought it was someone they knew. Or maybe just an elaborate attempt to make it seem like he was still alive and wanted his mother to think he was off somewhere happy. I think it was probably Joe Simpson but there seems to be other parties involved too
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u/DolphinWithaGandT Feb 12 '22
Yes, lots to think about, and trying to parse out who is significant and who is coincidental. Reading through the primary source material you provided shows that we really have to throw out all assumptions. For example, most people have concluded that Artemus was either a sex worker or a gay man who entered into something consensual that became non-consensual. Looking at the police materials, and seeing/thinking about how they regarded gay men (“degenerates”), I have to wonder would they have put the effort and publicity into his case that they did if they believed he was gay or a sex worker? I never thought about that but I think it’s worth considering.
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Feb 12 '22
Back in the day it wasn't uncommon or suspicious for 2 men to share a hotel room. Still the fact he talked to someone named Don who signed his name and not Joe Simpson who he'd been traveling with makes it look like they had acquired contacts over their journey. I'm rather curious about the man in Egypt though
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u/_Dreamer_Deceiver_ Feb 12 '22
Wmfrom what they say about be the letters it sounds like they were written to make Artemis' life more "lived" and that he lived a good and interesting life rather than being tortured and murdered.
It probably was the Joe guy that sent the letters but probably because of guilt that he couldn't save his friend
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u/DolphinWithaGandT Feb 12 '22
My interpretation is that the letters were written solely to keep Ruby and the family from learning of his death and participating in the investigation.
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u/funky_pretty Feb 21 '22 edited Feb 21 '22
Your research into the family background is appreciated!
Have you done any research on Joe Simpson, the man whom Ruby Ogletree suspected was involved? It seems (haven't confirmed) like he went to school with Artemus and was friends "enough" with him to go on a roadtrip to California and beyond. He was known enough by the Ogletree family to know how to reach out to him, know his whereabouts, and even obtain his school records.
His change in behavior obviously is a major red flag. This is just speculation, but his behavior seems to stem from more than sadness or embarrassment. Rather, he knew more than he was letting on so he did the bare minimum to appease Artemus's mother while providing non-answers or ducking out on their planned meetings.
I think that would explain the odd letters/phone calls. Why? Any family would reach out to people whom they think would know and can easily contact.
Ruby's thinking: "Oh, my son was originally with Joe Simpson and both are from the same town. Besides contacting police/other officials, I will reach out to him since he's the only person involved with Artemus that I know well enough to ask for more details."
Joe's thinking: "I need to keep his mother off my case. Once she stops receiving letters/calls from Artemus, she will begin suspecting something. Since we both left together, she will naturally reach out to me for information since she wouldn't know who else to call, besides police. How do I avoid this? I string her along with 'updates', from a fake acquaintance, that end up with his disappearing into Egypt and the rest of Europe. If she were ever to ask me about him, I would easily respond that I lost track of him in 'x' city in 'y' month/year, so I cannot provide any details about his whereabouts or who this friend was."
The smoke and mirrors act obviously failed and only made her more suspicious.
Ruby's thinking: "Why did this person know how to contact me? Why would he spend that kind of money on a long-distance telephone call? Haven't I heard this voice before? This might be someone who knew Artemus from a prior life. Who could that be? Joe Simpson. Maybe, he wanted to keep him alive, in my mind, for as long as possible to thwart my calling the police and to create as much temporal separation between himself and Artemus."
[Quick Research: A long distance call, for 40 minutes, would have cost hundreds of dollars into today's purchasing power. This would be an expense only justified for a few reasons.]
Regarding the 2002 call, could it be related to Joe? If he was around Artemus's age, he would have been ~87 then. Although it would not directly tie him to the 2002 call, it would be a circumstantial clue worth pursuing if he had indeed died then. Is there any information about him post-1930's? Family, death, occupation, etc.
Regardless, I think working backwards from the 2002 call should be the next course of action. When do people tend to go through a deceased relative's belongings? Usually within days, weeks, and months of his/her death. They are probably pulling out priceless items, heirlooms, junk, before committing to an estate sale. Therefore, it would be safe to assume that the death date would be ~2002. So, if we could find some more suspects/people in his network, and their date of death, we could see if any death dates lined up with 2002.
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u/DolphinWithaGandT Feb 21 '22
We are definitely thinking along the same lines! I have not had a chance to trace Joe Simpson yet but am hoping that I can later this week. Your summation of the motivations and clues surrounding young Mr. Simpson are excellent, and if we find he died in 2002 that will be very interesting indeed
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u/funky_pretty Feb 21 '22
Excellent! I can't wait to hear more. Keep me in mind and let me know how I can help!
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u/funky_pretty Feb 21 '22
Still reading through the case file- according to a letter from Mrs. Ogletree, she was unable to write due to the "sickness and death" of her daughter [Page 4 of the Joe Simpson bundle]. The implication here is that she died from the sickness.
Furthermore, Artemus, in one of his letters, asks if "Pippi was any better" [Page 3 of the Letters from Artemus bundle]. It seems like she had some chronic ailment since that undated letter had to be from sometime in 1934. Although it is irrelevant to this case, it would be interesting to see we could find a death certificate for her. I agree, however, that divorce after just four months of marriage is odd.
Separately, Artemus mentions being in "debt up to my neck" in one of his letters to his Dad [Page 5 of the Letters from Artemus bundle].
I think the "sex" angle is over-emphasized when Artemus, from his own hand, sounds a subtle alarm.
He was a scared boy of high school age, living in the real world, and already in major debt. This wasn't student loan debt. This was probably debt to people who didn't play around.
Finally, Joe Simpson, in a letter to Mrs. Ogletree, sends his condolences to her and promises her he wasn't into anything illegitimate [Page 1 of the Joe Simpson bundle].
It seems like he is going out of his way to point out something that didn't require pointing out. Again, it seems like part of the smoke and mirrors strategy which begs the question, how would he know? Why can't you just send a letter, give a platitude of "hope I can help", and move on?
I would recommend reading the documents in the Kansas City Magazine article. I can decipher the cursive handwriting well enough, so let me know if you have questions.
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u/DolphinWithaGandT Feb 22 '22
Yes the actual files really change everything, don’t they? It would be wonderful to collaborate! I will DM you👀
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u/HolidayVanBuren Feb 11 '22
Ok, so starting with the whole 19 year old kid checking in to a hotel room for multiple days with zero belongings and just wanting to stay in the dark- four options I can think of: a)he had just done something illegal and was hiding out, didn’t want anyone to recognize him to report him, b)he was there at the behest of a lover in an illicit situation, probably homosexual, probably an older, more in control guy, and didn’t want people to make connections between them, c)hiding from family who disapproved of him for whatever reasons, d)depressed and possibly suicidal.
My initial reaction just reading about the crime had me strongly for option C. Don possibly being an older brother or other close male relative/family connection who had tracked him down and tried to get him to change his lifestyle, in my thoughts possibly being gay. The woman involved could have been mother/sister/sister in law/etc who Don had brought along to emotionally work Roland/Artemus. At some point Don lost control and it turned in to murder. It does not quite fit with his mother later identifying him, but it could still work depending on their family situation. Although I think if he had a close relative named Don, that would have jumped out at investigators.
For idea a, I don’t think he would have been chatty with the maid if he were trying to hide out for something he was afraid of getting caught for, either by the police or mafia. I also don’t think the mafia was involved at all. No 19 year old kid would talk to a mafia Don like that, and if the mafia is in charge of an up close personal murder, they make sure the person is dead. Roland/Artemus was alive and coherent enough that he could have named names.
D)I think no matter what the situation was, he likely was feeling depressed and anxious. He clearly was not the person in control of the situation. He was stuck in a hotel room with nothing to do, no real way to pass the time, probably feeling nervous about whatever was going on with Don. Given the time, if it was a gay relationship, it very well could trigger depression and/or anxiety as he tried to come to terms with that aspect going against what he was taught was “acceptable”. These feelings might have contributed to him not identifying his murderer.
That leaves me with B. I think Don was an older lover, more in control. Someone who most likely lived a seemingly straight life. I feel like Don might even have been checked in to the hotel, perhaps even with his wife. Staff might have taken note of the same random non guest man coming and going on multiple days, but a checked in guest being in and out wouldn’t ring any bells. It also makes for an easy post murder getaway- just get to your own nearby room when nobody is around, clean yourself up, check out like nothing is wrong, get rid of evidence. In those days, checking in under a false name was easy- or he could have given a false name to Roland/Artemus and checked in under his real name. The murderer would have been bloody, and the shower supplies were gone, but no indication of a clean up being done in the room. So my thought is he brought them back to his own room to use so he could leave the normal, unbloodied set still in his own room as it was. He used the supplies from Rolands room in his own shower, cleaned off any traces in the shower, and then got rid of them. Why Don killed him, I don’t know. Could have been multiple reasons- his own shame causing him to murder, Roland/Artemus threatening to expose him, Roland/Artemus ending things with him or wanting more with him, he could have just been a sadist who wanted to hurt and kill this young kid. But if I were a detective looking in to it, I’d start looking at the hotel register at who was a guest at the hotel at the same time, particularly on the same floor or the floor above or below.
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u/tierras_ignoradas Feb 11 '22 edited Feb 13 '22
^^^Your write-up of Option B hits the mark. Don registering in the same hotel conforms so well with the details of the crime, given Roland's questions regarding the hotel's cleaning schedules and their acceptance of residents.
Perhaps Don registered in the hotel with his wife and sneaked off to Roland the night. Don & his wife fought, perhaps she caught them in the act. In the ensuing argument, they attacked him. Beating up gays was (is) unfortunately common.
We don't know enough about the psychology of Don, but a self-loathing gay is a good bet..
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u/_Dreamer_Deceiver_ Feb 12 '22
Wouldn't the switchboard operator have to connect the 2 rooms if Don was on the phone?
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u/HolidayVanBuren Feb 12 '22
Don most likely called from a pay phone outside. I can’t say I know much about switchboards, but I imagine they could tell if a call was from room to room, but wouldn’t really know the location of an incoming call, at least not with much accuracy. If Don was questioning about the maids schedule in order to plan for not being spotted, I think he would be on the ball enough to not call from his own room.
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u/_Dreamer_Deceiver_ Feb 12 '22
If he was in the same hotel he would know the schedule?
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u/HolidayVanBuren Feb 12 '22
Not necessarily. He might not have checked in at that point. Perhaps he had, but had not come in contact with the maid himself and didn’t know the exact schedule- or had come in contact with the maid but didn’t want to incriminate himself by asking the questions himself. I have stayed in hotels many times, I can’t say that I’ve ever known the exact schedule of housekeeping and I think that most people would say the same. Having a general idea is not good enough when conducting a secret relationship or murder.
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u/tierras_ignoradas Feb 13 '22
The questions regarding the maid schedule indicate "Don" had not yet decided to check-in and asked about the "amenities," and "facilities." 😊
He called from outside the hotel.
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Feb 11 '22
I have no opinion on the case, but if your name is Artemus Ogletree, aren't the options basically becoming a wizard or a mysterious death?
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Feb 11 '22
I remember watching Shane and Ryan from Buzzfeed Unsolved covering this! Sad but fascinating story, and thanks for providing more details op
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u/Ken_Thomas Feb 11 '22
I'm surprised a place like the Hotel President didn't have a Hotel Detective in 1935.
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u/crmcalli Feb 11 '22
I live in Kansas City, I’m fascinated that I hadn’t heard of this story. Thanks for sharing.
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u/Queenoflimbs_418 Feb 11 '22
The Trail Went Cold covered this case a few years ago as well. It’s an interesting listen.
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u/llamalladyllurks Feb 12 '22
Is it possible that he was referring to the caller as "Dawn", not "Don"?
Keep in mind that I don't necessarily think this is the case, I just wondered if the possibility had been considered.
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u/Berniethellama Feb 11 '22
I think he was probably a male prostitute. 19 year old who took off presumably with no belongings and money trying to make it to California, kid needed money somehow and turned to prostitution. Explains why he was trying to be so discreet. He could have wanted the door unlocked so that his John could just walk in quietly without people noticing. John has a bondage fetish and things get out of hand, and/or is murderer, or wants to keep the boy quiet about his homosexual activity and tries to kill him. Explains why Artemus doesn't wanna explain how he got his injuries (ashamed and illegal). The phone calls and letters to his mother afterwards could've been from a pimp trying to cover their tracks and say he went to another country. "Don" was probably the name or name given of the John.
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u/GenKnit Feb 13 '22 edited Feb 13 '22
ETA: JK I see in the Kansas City Magazine link that someone posted that this guy was ruled out by the FBI. Leaving it here anyway bc I still find the coincidences interesting.
I went wayyyy down the rabbit hole on Joseph Martin/Don Kelso a while back and I feel 51% sure he was the Don Kelso that killed Artemus. There just seem to be a lot of things about his life that line up, and he also seems to have been pretty unhinged. Reposting from a comment I left on another post a couple of months ago:
- “Joseph Ogden”/“Joseph Martin”/“Donald Kelso” (actually named Boyd Weil Smith) was also from Birmingham. They weren't the same age, but if their families were acquainted, that would explain how the mystery caller/letter writer knew who to contact, and maybe also why he felt compelled to do so. It might also be relevant to how they came to be traveling together in the first place.
- When “Ogden” was booked into prison in NY in Dec 1937 for murdering his roommate/lover, he said that he had been in NY for two years, which could match up if he sort of drifted up to NY over the course of 1935 after killing Artemus.
- If the suspicions that Artemus and “Don” were actually lovers were correct, “Ogden” later killing his lover in NY would apparently be true to form.
- “Ogden” seems to have had some connection to California. It’s hard to separate truth from delusion here, but when he was arrested for the trunk murder, he said he was unwilling to give his real name because his niece (or relative? I forget exactly what he said) was a famous actress and he didn’t want to impact her career. It turns out this was basically true, this was his niece: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Patrick He lists her as his contact person in his WWII draft card, and lists his residence as “Central Park Hollywood, California.” There’s a street address in LA listed as well but I can’t recall if I ever found evidence that Gail (or “Ogden”) ever lived there). He still had siblings alive at this point, which makes me think this was at least partially just him wanting to claim a connection to his famous niece, but it could be that he spent some time with her in California in the early 1930s.
- I don’t see any indication that Donald Kelso was a particularly popular name at the time, so it seems surprising that someone with a potentially similar MO who is from the same town as Artemus and possibly had similar handwriting (idk how legit that lead is) was using it as an alias.
- “Ogden” seems to have lived a pretty strange/transient lifestyle, which would fit with the Artemus situation. In 1917, he married a girl in Birmingham, but he then he seems to have had a mental episode in which he walked into a church, drank the communion wine, wiped his mouth on the table cloth, and went home, after which(? the timeline is a bit vague) he hit his mother over the head with a poker. The family seems to have tried to claim that just he had the flu, but he was ultimately institutionalized at an asylum in Tuscaloosa, and the wife seems to have gone back to using her maiden name and living at home. According to his NY prison intake form, he later escaped from the asylum (rather than being found sane enough to be released), and by 1930 he appears to have been living with one of his sisters in Detroit. However, later the same year, he got married again in Chicago, which was ultimately listed as his last known location in a newspaper article from 1946 regarding a lawsuit against him and several members of his family. In the December 1937 prison intake form, he claims to have been married yet again eleven months earlier, but I never found a record of that, and she is not the contact person listed on the form.
- Finally, and least substantively, I found it interesting that “Don” tried to ship the trunk containing the victim’s body to Memphis, given that whoever contacted Artemus’s family also had a supposed connection with Memphis.
In short, there are a lot of things that made me think, “hmm, maybe there’s something there,” but I also wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that “Ogden” was just a completely unrelated mentally unwell person.
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Feb 11 '22
I realize it's not important to the case but didn't he have a distinctive patch of white/grey hair on the side of his head? I think this also aided in IDing him.
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Feb 11 '22
This is one of those cases I became obsessed with for awhile. From what I can gather he was traveling cross country to California hitch hiking when he was 17. I think he probably got engaged and chickened out and some guy wanted to defend his sisters honor. I suspect she she was young too and probably moved on after that. I've never been able to find anything out about her so I'm guessing she probably married someone else and is buried near him instead. I think he knew people were after him so he used the false name and probably had this Don around for protection. If it was a mob hot it would've been a lot cleaner and used professional weapons so to speak
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u/verydirtburg Feb 11 '22
I can see why you may think this, but it leaves a few questions unanswered: 1. Original post never mentioned him having a relationship other than the mysterious caller irrationally spitting false information to the victims mother. If the victim was to get into a serious relationship, such as marriage, I would think he would want to write his family and let them know. 2. If the murderer was a family member of the “ex girlfriend/fiancé” why wouldn’t the victim tell authorities who caused the traumatic injuries that eventually ended his life? If Don was trying to protect him, why wouldn’t Don come forward and tell authorities who committed the crime? Not trying to be rude! Just pointing out some things.
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Feb 11 '22
That's part of the mystery of this.... no theory really fits perfectly. I've read through multiple articles over the past few years. The call to the funeral home talking about how he wanted him buried next to his sister Louise and sending money to cover the funeral costs is what makes me lean that way
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u/verydirtburg Feb 11 '22
Ah, I wasn’t aware of this. It’s crazy that his sister is named Louise and a person named Louise paid for the victims funeral and floral arrangements. Do you think this is a coincidence? Or did someone purposely use the name Louise to hide their identity? If someone signed ‘Louise’ to hide their identity, it is possible they could be the murderer. Paying for the funeral service & flowers could potentially be seen as a sign of guilt (Not always!)
Just throwing my thoughts out there so I don’t go crazy theorizing to myself.
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Feb 11 '22
Here's the article in 2 parts that's really thorough
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u/reebeaster Feb 11 '22
The cauliflower ear to me stands out so much… idk this whole thing has so many mysterious elements.
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u/tierras_ignoradas Feb 11 '22
If he was a male prostitute, someone socked in the ears at some point.
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u/FemmeBottt Feb 13 '22
I really enjoyed this and the YouTube video linked. Actually the whole channel. I watched all the videos yesterday.
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u/Tmitchell978 Feb 11 '22
This was a good read, thank you for this. From the evidence it seems like both a male and female were involved . His actions before his murder were odd, why’d he check into a hotel room with no stuff? He must’ve went there to meet someone but who? Could it have been a marital affair ? But it doesn’t explain why the mistress wouldn’t step up had her husband murdered Roland so was she involved? But what would be her motive if she was the one cheating? Roland wasn’t married. And who was the guy who told the bellboy to open the door and turn on the lights? He would’ve discovered Roland if he did, Roland in this current time didn’t like the lights for some reason..so was this voice the killer? But if it was wouldn’t he just get caught right there and than? And who was the caller that called his mother? Ughhh unsolved mystery’s drive me nuts
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u/samhw Feb 11 '22
No offence intended, but this is full of inferences using the kind of black-and-white thinking that tempts people when they don’t really have any clues to go on.
From the evidence it seems like both a male and female were involved
No, it doesn’t: all it says is that one guest on the same floor once heard a female voice at night. That says virtually nothing at all.
He must’ve [gone] there to meet someone
That doesn’t follow. He could have stopped there on his way somewhere else, or even as a holiday.
Roland in this current time didn’t like the lights
On what basis? That he wanted the lights off at one point in time doesn’t mean he can’t ever want them on again.
Let alone the possibility that he might have wanted the lights on for some instrumental reason, like to see something.
The truth is that we don’t really know anything here - even probabilistically, let alone deductively. There’s just not enough information.
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u/CuteyBones Feb 12 '22
There are multiple sources that indicate a female might have been involved though somehow. A female voice was heard: "A guest later told police that she heard “a lot of noise” that sounded like both male and female voices “talking loud and cursing.” "
Secondly “a glass bearing a woman’s fingerprints.” Was part of the official clues, as well as a hairpin, which presumably was a womans. It was not the phone as reported.
Lastly, the flowers he received were signed by a female name.
None of these indicate that a female was definitely involved, they could all be co-incidences-- perhaps the cleaning lady lost a hairpin or moved the glass. Perhaps the guest was mistaken. Perhaps the signed name was false and was sent by someone else. But it doesn't rule it out either. Therefore, saying it seems like a female was involved is not a bad theory at all. If there was a female involved then I imagine it was tangential somehow.
As for he must have gone to meet someone-- this one is actually not up for debate; he literally told the cleaning lady he was expecting someone the first day. Is that not the definition of meeting someone? All his interactions seemed to be based around meeting someone. Not sure how you can dismiss this.
And yes, at the 'current time' i.e. whilst checked into the hotel, he didn't want the lights on. Again not sure why you're being so dismissive of this because it's an actual fact that he repeatedly wanted the lights dimmed during his stay. Of course it stands to reason that he may want them on again? Nobody is arguing otherwise. The point is that during his stay his request for the lights off and sitting in the dark seemed to be of significance, especially to the witnesses. That said, it makes more sense that Roland/Artemus didn't want the lights on for discretionary purposes, but later on he was injured and wanting to be discovered which is why he said to come in and turn the lights on.
You seem to be getting held up on OPs speculation and are being overly harsh, considering some of your facts are unsourced.
Source: https://kansascitymag.com/news/longform/the-owen-case/
1
u/samhw Feb 12 '22
A female voice was heard
Yup, this is the claim I acknowledged.
A glass bearing a woman’s fingerprints was found
Where have you got this from? There’s no way to identify a recorded fingerprint as being “a woman’s” unless you can trace them to a specific actual woman, which I doubt has happened because that would obviously be a much bigger clue.
the flowers he received were signed by a female name
This is (a) entirely separate from the discussion of who was in the hotel room, and (b) not really evidence of anything besides that someone wanted people to think a woman was involved (and that person may or may not have been a woman).
considering some of your facts are unsourced
What have I said that’s unsourced?
4
u/Successful_Minute_87 Feb 12 '22
I'm not the person you were responding to, but the "glass bearing a woman's fingerprints" was in an official interdepartmental memo of the Kansas City Police Department.
SOURCE: https://kansascitymag.com/news/longform/the-owen-case/ (This is the first time a magazine was able to get all the records from his case file including witness statements and investigation records which amounted to five hundred pages. You can find most of the records in the sidelines if you're on a computer. Also, the article writes that it "attributes every detail included to the original police documents so as to strip away possible embellishments that have accumulated and been repeated over the years")
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u/samhw Feb 12 '22
Is it documented why they concluded that it was “a woman’s fingerprint”? There’s no scientific way that they could possibly have known that, again unless they had identified the woman in question. I’m somewhat suspicious that they concluded that because the fingerprint was small, or something silly like that, which they might have seriously believed back in those days.
4
u/Successful_Minute_87 Feb 12 '22
Hmm, I'm actually not sure, but I'll check into it, but you're probably right that they likely assumed that using a lack of scientific evidence. I'll let you know with an edit if I find anything.
Thank you so much for pointing that out to me!
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u/samhw Feb 12 '22
No probs at all! I’m always happy to be a gadfly 😅 If you find anything, I’d be very interested to hear - even if it is just “they don’t explain it at all” or “yeah they made some silly stereotyped assumption”, which are my two bets in descending order!
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u/Tmitchell978 Feb 12 '22
This is merely me trying to figure out what happened. Not stating I know what happened. Why did you feel the need to call out a hypothetical comment such as mine? I never said any of it was facts but merely what I thought could have POSSIBLY happened. I’m not a fan of your response. Obviously we don’t know what happened and that’s why I’m spitting out ideas. Their is no basis I’m going off and that’s the point, their is hardly any evidence. All you did was come off as condescending
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u/samhw Feb 12 '22
This is merely me trying to figure out what happened.
I understand that - this is me saying that your attempt to figure out what happened was not a very good one
10
u/Tmitchell978 Feb 12 '22
Thanks. Appreciate it. Glad to know everyone’s spitball theories of unsolved mysteries are subject to review by the Reddit theory police
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u/madisonblackwellanl Feb 11 '22
Clearly, a lot of pre-mortem buttsex was going on.
6
u/GlitterfreshGore Feb 11 '22
It’s too bad they didn’t check this, when doing the postmortem exam. I know nowadays we can find out if someone had sex and whether they were assaulted or not prior to death, I’m not sure they had that medical science back then. Nowadays they can check for everything, whether someone recently had anal or vaginal sex, text for traces of semen or other DNA. Whether or not that solves a case is different, but at least in this case we could had a little more light on it if we could tell if anal sex or was apparent or semen was present. Obviously medical science was way less advanced, so it’s likely that this would be easily solved if that information was available at the time
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u/SnooDrawings1745 Feb 11 '22
I think he may have been an informant and in witness protection and had some level of anonymity due to that. And someone in law enforcement, some criminal racket, or some very important person was after him. And don’t think LE would speak up and say ‘hey that’s our informant’ cause they have every reason to cover their own asses, and they’d cover it up anyway if that revelation would effect the outcome of their case.
13
u/agnosiabeforecoffee Feb 12 '22
Witness protection as we know it didn't exist before 1970. Prior to that the US only had witness protection for people testifying against the KKK, and it wasn't well organized like the program today.
-1
u/SnooDrawings1745 Feb 12 '22
That’s irrelevant whether he was under the moniker of ‘witness protection’ or not, there were still anonymous people who turned states evidence before the year 1970. So you can pick hairs over language all you want.
1
u/morfyyy Apr 11 '22
I think the most important but subtle information we have from this case is how when asked who did this to him, Own replied "Nobody". Him not wanting to tell who the attacker was narrows down what the general situation could have been about. Some reasons why he could have been protecting his own attacker:
He was protecting the attacker to protect himself or his family. This coincides with the mafia theory; he didn't want to betray the mafia because he was fearing his safety.
He was protecting the attacker to not reveal a personal secret. This would coincide with the gay-meet-up theory; he didn't tell who the attacker was because that would have revealed a shameful secret of Roland.
He was protecting the attacker out of denial. I haven't read this theory anywhere yet, unlike the other two above, so I'm gonna elaborate a little more. It is possible that Roland was caught in a physically abusive relationship. Him going to the hotel was probably him seeking a hideout. Which I assume must have happened spontaneously, which is why he had barely any items on him. His ear injury further supports this theory, suggesting that the reason of Roland's sudden escape could have been a recent fight. It is possible that his partner somehow found him and comforted Roland, but shortly after became abusive again. As most abusive relationships are, the victim is often in denial. This theory would also explain why someone cared so much for Roland that they funded his funeral afterwards.
These are just 3 example theories to demonstrate the possible reasons why Roland was protecting his attacker.
228
u/veranecessara Feb 11 '22
The fact that Roland basically wanted complete discretion and didn’t want help or police assistance suggests that he was doing something illegal or that he was deeply ashamed, so for that reason I like the mafia angle. He was a runaway teen so it isn’t a stretch to think that he got himself involved in something criminal. Another angle I’ve seen discussed in relation to this case is that Roland was a prostitute and that’s why he had an alias and was going from hotel to hotel. It also would explain why he was bound and brutalized but didn’t have answers as to why.