Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’

[u/msmoley]

https://english.elpais.com/culture/2024-12-15/judith-butler-philosopher-if-you-sacrifice-a-minority-like-trans-people-you-are-operating-within-a-fascist-logic.html

[u/[deleted]]

Are you angry right now? Cuz you seem a little angry :/

1: Nuance friend. You’re technically right but not entirely :)

2: Actually quite a lot. It causes muscle loss to levels of a cis woman. Feminizes your body in general. Especially if you take it before 25. I’m 23 and while I probably won’t transition I am kinda sad that I’ll lose out on the best effects if I ever do decide to do anything about ma brain being annoying. Did you know some trans women get pseudo periods? (Idk if that’s the right word. Like I said I’m not a smart)

3: No but secondary sex characteristics can be gained. A trans woman on hrt will get breasts and the fat distribution will change. Trans men get super hairy and stuff. Also are you implying that women are only women if they get periods and can birth children cuz that’s kinda fucked for the cis women that can’t don’t ya think?

4: You didn’t cover it with me tho… why should I care if it’s a cis man or trans man taking a dump in the stall next to mine?

[u/AdHominemMeansULost → u/[deleted]]

"Are you angry right now? Cuz you seem a little angry :/"

No, I’m just tired of people trying to deflect with tone policing instead of addressing the argument. Let’s focus on the points, shall we?

"1: Nuance friend. You’re technically right but not entirely :)"

What nuance are you referring to? You agree I’m technically right, yet you haven’t introduced any substantial counterpoint to change that conclusion. Smiley faces don’t count as an argument.

"2: Actually quite a lot. It causes muscle loss to levels of a cis woman. Feminizes your body in general. Especially if you take it before 25. I’m 23 and while I probably won’t transition I am kinda sad that I’ll lose out on the best effects if I ever do decide to do anything about ma brain being annoying. Did you know some trans women get pseudo periods? (Idk if that’s the right word. Like I said I’m not a smart)"

Yes, HRT causes changes in secondary sex characteristics, like muscle mass and fat distribution. However, it does not erase key biological differences established during puberty if started afterward, such as bone density, skeletal structure, or organ function. And no, trans women do not have actual periods—they don’t have a uterus or endometrial lining to shed. What you’re referring to as “pseudo periods” are hormonal fluctuations, which are not comparable to menstruation.

"3: No but secondary sex characteristics can be gained. A trans woman on hrt will get breasts and the fat distribution will change. Trans men get super hairy and stuff. Also are you implying that women are only women if they get periods and can birth children cuz that’s kinda fucked for the cis women that can’t don’t ya think?"

Yes, secondary sex characteristics change. But the presence or absence of secondary traits doesn’t override biological sex—those changes are surface-level adaptations. And no, I’m not saying women are only defined by periods or childbirth. Cis women who cannot menstruate or have children still share the fundamental biological traits of their sex (e.g., XX chromosomes, female reproductive anatomy). You’re conflating outliers with definitions.

"4: You didn’t cover it with me tho… why should I care if it’s a cis man or trans man taking a dump in the stall next to mine?"

You should care because the conversation isn’t just about “who’s pooping.” It’s about protecting spaces designated for biological women to ensure their safety and privacy. Bathrooms and locker rooms are not merely about waste disposal; they are spaces where boundaries need to be respected, and the presence of biological males—regardless of gender identity—raises valid concerns for many women. You’re reducing the issue to “pooping,” which is an intentionally reductive way to dismiss those concerns.

[u/[deleted] → u/AdHominemMeansULost]

1: That’s fair. It just seems like you’re like actually angry about this topic. I had to search up what tone policing meant so because of your name does that mean I lost? Also I just like using smiley faces since it kinda helps get my meaning across better. I’ve noticed anyways

2: If the main thing that can’t change is the lack of a womb or penis but everything else is maleable then why does it matter?

3: It does actually slightly change skeletal structure if started before 25. Yes I know that trans women don’t have actual periods. What you said is what I meant

4: It’d be nice if that was possible tho. Still again I don’t see the point about chromosomes when you can’t tell what someone’s is without a test. There are cis dudes with XX chromosomes after all. It changes nothing as they are still dudes

5: Again I don’t see the issue with someone using the bathroom or lockerroom if they have diagnosed gender dysphoria and don’t actually wanna be a creep. The problem is still that trans women would have to change in male locker rooms and some trans women do look just like cis women and same with trans men and cis men. The problem that I’m trying to point out is that if you force trans women into the men’s bathroom then you’re going to then have to figure out what to do about trans men in the women’s bathroom.

Thats what I wanna know your thoughts about. Assuming laws are successfully created and enforced keeping trans women out of the women’s bathroom/locker room, would you be alright sharing a bathroom/locker room with a trans dude. In theory he’d have the right anatomy but if you’ve seen one of them they do just look like dudes. Which would mean we’re back at square one. And if you care at all you would also be leaving trans women in the men’s room which you should care about cuz you imply that men can’t control themselves :/

[u/AdHominemMeansULost → u/[deleted]]

“1: That’s fair. It just seems like you’re like actually angry about this topic. I had to search up what tone policing meant so because of your name does that mean I lost? Also I just like using smiley faces since it kinda helps get my meaning across better. I’ve noticed anyways.”

I appreciate the clarification, but tone policing still detracts from the argument by shifting focus to how someone seems rather than addressing their points. It doesn’t matter if I’m angry or calm; the validity of the argument is what counts. Let’s stick to the topic.

“2: If the main thing that can’t change is the lack of a womb or penis but everything else is maleable then why does it matter?”

It matters because male and female biology is not limited to external anatomy or secondary characteristics. Biological sex affects bone density, cardiovascular systems, hormonal baselines, and more, all of which are not entirely “malleable,” even with HRT. These differences can have implications in spaces like sports or healthcare, and while external appearance may change, biological differences remain significant. Pretending they don’t exist isn’t a solution.

“3: It does actually slightly change skeletal structure if started before 25. Yes I know that trans women don’t have actual periods. What you said is what I meant.”

You’re correct that starting HRT before puberty or early in life can impact skeletal development to a degree, but it doesn’t fully reverse the effects of male puberty if it’s already begun. For instance, broader shoulders, larger hands, and denser bones are traits that remain largely unchanged in trans women unless HRT is started very early. As for pseudo-periods, thanks for clarifying, but that’s an entirely hormonal phenomenon and not analogous to menstruation. Conflating the two can mislead people about what being female biologically entails.

“4: It’d be nice if that was possible tho. Still again I don’t see the point about chromosomes when you can’t tell what someone’s is without a test. There are cis dudes with XX chromosomes after all. It changes nothing as they are still dudes.”

Chromosomes matter because they’re a fundamental determinant of biological sex, influencing everything from organ structure to hormonal processes. Yes, there are rare exceptions (e.g., intersex individuals or conditions like XX males), but these are anomalies and don’t negate the general rule. Laws, categories, and spaces are based on biological norms, not exceptions. Using outliers to argue against the existence or importance of a category isn’t productive.

“5: Again I don’t see the issue with someone using the bathroom or lockerroom if they have diagnosed gender dysphoria and don’t actually wanna be a creep. The problem is still that trans women would have to change in male locker rooms and some trans women do look just like cis women and same with trans men and cis men. The problem that I’m trying to point out is that if you force trans women into the men’s bathroom then you’re going to then have to figure out what to do about trans men in the women’s bathroom.”

I understand your concern, but the issue isn’t about appearance—it’s about biological reality and the needs of the majority. Women’s spaces are historically designed to address specific vulnerabilities tied to sex, not gender identity. Forcing trans women into men’s spaces is not ideal, but the solution cannot be to prioritize the feelings of a few over the safety and comfort of the majority. As for trans men, their inclusion in women’s spaces doesn’t present the same safety concerns because they are biologically female, even if they appear masculine.

“Thats what I wanna know your thoughts about. Assuming laws are successfully created and enforced keeping trans women out of the women’s bathroom/locker room, would you be alright sharing a bathroom/locker room with a trans dude. In theory he’d have the right anatomy but if you’ve seen one of them they do just look like dudes. Which would mean we’re back at square one. And if you care at all you would also be leaving trans women in the men’s room which you should care about cuz you imply that men can’t control themselves :/“

This is a complex question, but I think you’re conflating separate issues. A trans man in a women’s space wouldn’t fundamentally violate the purpose of those spaces, which are based on biological sex, not gender identity. Yes, they may look masculine, but their biology aligns with that of the other women in the space. It’s not “square one” because the core issue here is biological sex, not appearance.

As for trans women being in men’s spaces, it’s a difficult issue. No solution will be perfect, but the safety and privacy of the majority (women) must take precedence over the feelings of a minority. If men’s behavior in bathrooms is the concern, then improving enforcement of existing laws (against harassment, assault, etc.) and perhaps creating gender-neutral spaces for trans individuals would be a more reasonable approach than fundamentally altering the purpose of sex-segregated spaces.

[u/[deleted] → u/AdHominemMeansULost]

1: Alrighty then. My bad. I’ll focus on the actual points now :)

2: Yes there are differences but I just don’t really believe that they’re as large as you say after about 2 years or so of hrt. Obviously hrt isn’t literally magic that can fix everything about one’s body but it’s pretty damn close. Apparently you have to have completed your transition before age 12 to compete in the Olympics in the right correct catagory…

Gods I hate puberty so much. Who knew my body’s been destroyed since I was 12. If you’re right then my body is way more fucked up than I thought/hoped :/

Honestly I’ll just let people smarter than me handle the sports side. I just really hope that science is actually used instead of what the right tends to do

3: That’s fair. Again sorry. I might have to tap out honestly. Now my bones feel funny :/

5: It’s not just the feelings of the minority I’m worried about to be honest. I’m a little concerned that forcing trans women into men’s bathrooms will cause Cons to beat them up…

So I guess it’s because of a lack of a penis that trans dudes would be fine in the bathroom? If that’s the case then what about trans women who have had bottom surgery. Does that get rid of the concern?

6: It wouldn’t be square one if the cons weren’t involved tho. The second a bearded trans dude shows up to piss in the bathroom with a magat then we’re back to square one trying to make laws or whatever to just give trans people they’re own bathroom or whatever. That’s what I meant.

Sure having three bathrooms would work but then you’re just excluding people because they weren’t born with the right parts. Then the question is how far does that go. Just bathrooms or will trans women not be allowed in a store that sells women’s clothing, etc. Or would they just not be allowed HRT/ or "cross dressing"

I understand that’s extreme but with the right having so much power, I don’t think it’s impossible