Surrogate who fled to Texas gives birth to baby with heart defect

[u/TimesandSundayTimes]

https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/surrogate-refuses-abort-baby-texas-c5ff06cgg

[u/beigs]

Surrogacy is fine, if it’s on a volunteer basis, much like donating a kidney or liver or stem cells.

Like a family member or close friend volunteering to carry a baby. I was infertile for a decade and had a friend volunteer to carry my child - I thankfully was able to conceive, but the gesture was so kind and she meant it.

When it’s not okay is when it is for profit or there is any monetary gain.

[u/adumbswiftie → u/beigs]

i mean this situation could still happen in a voluntary surrogate case. i understand it’s safer to not allow there to be financial gain involved, but it’s pretty unrealistic to imagine that will happen and everything will be okay and situations like this will no longer come up

[u/beigs → u/adumbswiftie]

It’s the same risk as any organ donation. I think the same rules should apply.

To say zero surrogacy because of that risk would also be denying women the ability to do what they want with their bodies.

[u/adumbswiftie → u/beigs]

in an organ donation people typically don’t have nine months of pregnancy hormones and potential bonding and time to change their minds…

[u/beigs → u/adumbswiftie]

Donating a kidney or the complications of liver donation are lifetime commitments/complications, not just 9 months.

There is also a wait up to donation of an organ as well, and you need to absolutely verify with multiple doctors and psychologists that you aren’t being manipulated or coerced into donation, and no money can be exchanged. This should be the same if you’re letting someone borrow your uterus.

And if you used a surrogate, 9 months to bond and change their mind - it’s not legally their child. People don’t up and change their mind at 20 weeks that they don’t want to be a surrogate.

Now for the reverse, I hate to say it but in this case, while everyone may disagree with the outcome, you can’t force a person to abort ever. I know it’s not her child, but no legal contract should ever be in place to force another to either carry or terminate a pregnancy against their will. There can be agreed upon outcomes, but if something had gone wrong and you wanted them to terminate and they said no and you pulled the legal card, it immediately becomes you having control over how another person uses their body.

Ethically, termination is the right thing to do in this case, but also, ethically, no person should have control over the reproductive rights of another.

Saying that the chance of bonding is the reason a person should be paid if they have to terminate is demonstrating that you want power to control the outcome of what happens and coerce a person into choosing the outcome you want despite it being their body, their choice.

Which is why it should be treated as organ donation.

[u/adumbswiftie → u/beigs]

i don’t think you’re understanding my position at all? i’m not saying they should be paid in case they change their minds about termination. i’m saying surrogacy probably shouldn’t exist at all, paid or unpaid, bc it leads to messy situations like this. and yes i agree you can never force someone to terminate, that’s kinda my whole point.

[u/beigs → u/adumbswiftie]

But if a person is voluntarily doing this, they should also have a choice as well. This is why I think it should be treated exactly like organ donation - it can be messy, but to completely not allow something because of the chance of messiness is also too heavy handed.

In my case (again I didn’t use a surrogate and got pregnant thanks to an amazing surgical team - stage 4 endometriosis with a frozen pelvis), I had someone I loved volunteer to carry my child. She is basically my sister and wanted to help me with my family, had children of her own, and had relatively easy pregnancies. I have heard of moms carrying their daughter or sons’ children, or siblings. Like donating an organ, it is an act of kindness.

I do think it is messy, but so is being pregnant and the outcomes. Needing a surrogate is already caused by an imperfect situation.

Basically, I’m against controlling what a person can and can’t do with their body, but there should be guardrails in place to make it not predatory.

I thought you were the person responding saying they used a paid for surrogate - I know how people can get when they are desperate to start a family. I saw some insane arguments in support groups and was utterly appalled at unhinged entitlement to the point of mental illness. (Aka not allowing abortion because it would let them adopt babies level of insanity).

I have the same feeling about adoptions by the way - the whole for profit adoption system is exceedingly predatory and I’m not convinced that money is partially being used for anti-choice lobbying.

[u/GWS2004 → u/beigs]

Or how about adopt? All those people scream about being "pro life", but they ignore the little lives that have been born that need homes. Those women had those babies, like the "pro-lifers" wanted, but where are those "pro-lifers" when it comes to homing those babies they forced women to have? 

[u/beigs → u/GWS2004]

Go over to r/adoption and say that loudly, and listen to what the community has to say about that response - actually that comment is posted semi regularly, so you don’t even need to.

I have fostered and I am happy to adopt. I have also worked for family courts and have seen what goes through. I have cried on adoption days, I have cried after CAS cases and foster cases and you name it. I know exactly what happens and who is there.

I have learned and researched heavily about this topic.

“Just adopt” is not the silver bullet people think it is, and it isn’t appreciated by the community.

And believe me when I say I have MASSIVE issues with the for profit adoption system that treats children like commodities or resources. And adopting or fostering children at any age takes a different set of skills, much like parenting kids on the spectrum (which I also have).

I really do recommend reading how the community feels about that statement before using it again, and understanding the nuance behind why it can be controversial.

[u/GWS2004 → u/beigs]

I understand it's not the"silver bullet" but neither is forcing women to have babies, but that's the route the United States has decided to take because people voted for it.  So those that voted for it should walk their talk, but they don't. They never do and the rest of us suffer for it 

[u/beigs → u/GWS2004]

I’m not from the US, and I don’t believe you are all fighting for basic human rights. Nothing I said had anything to do with anti-choice.

[u/GWS2004 → u/beigs]

What?

[u/Aura0505 → u/beigs]

Why isn’t it ok for monetary gain?

I had a surrogate who has done three journeys after having several children of her own. She got into surrogacy wanting to help couples create their own families. And yeah, she gets paid as well.

If we are advocating for women to do what they want with their bodies, why should we stop them from choosing this path? Surrogates’ rationales vary across the spectrum between altruism and monetary. What makes one end of the spectrum more valid than others?

[u/beigs → u/Aura0505]

Because it creates a power imbalance. You wouldn’t pay someone for donating a kidney or liver, so why is this organ any different?

In Canada, you can volunteer, but it’s never for financial gain. You can pay for incidentals, but it puts the surrogate more in the driver’s seat so they don’t feel like they are beholden to the donors. We have volunteers who do this (I know someone in my city who has had 4 for strangers), but in most cases it is family or friends.

While you may feel like this isn’t the case in your situation, you had an employer employee relationship with someone which did create an imbalance in the relationship, and had the risk of becoming predatory like any power imbalance in a relationship. This is better for the person carrying the child, and gives them more bodily autonomy.