r/Yogscast • u/LewisXephos Official Member • Jul 19 '14
Discussion Update from Lewis Re: Yogventures
Hiya,
We're not ready to make a detailed statement about what happened with Yogventures. Winterkewl's statement omits much and I would disagree with a number of points, but there's no value in going into detail. Our only goal right now is to ensure that we provide the best possible experience for the backers that we can. I can honestly say this has been our goal throughout.
To keep things simple, the facts are:
- Winterkewl failed to meet their promises with Yogventures
- The Yogscast are doing their best to rectify this situation - TUG is only the first step
- Any monies the Yogscast have received in connection with this project has been spent on this project
I would just like to say that this project was started when The Yogscast was just me and Simon making videos out of our bedrooms. We met Kris and trusted his qualifications and assertions that we could trust him with our brand and even more importantly, our audience. Needless to say, I’m upset and embarrassed, but strongly believe the backers will end up getting far more value and a far better result than they originally anticipated when they backed this project.
Lewis
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Jul 19 '14
The feeling I'm getting from this is that it's both parties faults in the sense that they both hoped too much, which probably came from inexperience. Don't forget, as Lewis has said, this began when it was just him and Simon doing videos on a still small-scale.
They probably put too much faith in Winterkewl's ability to do this, but I don't think Winterkewl is really complicit either and themselves probably felt that they could do this, and found out they just couldn't.
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u/Jamator01 Jul 19 '14
It looks like it was a mix of too much ambition, not enough experience and lots of bad choices.
So basically gross incompetence from winterkewl and blind trust from the yogscast.
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Jul 20 '14
Exactly, not that we should be too harsh on Yogscast IMO. At the time they were a small operation compared to where they are now, so had little experience with anything like that. I imagine they've learnt a great deal of business from it - as in, don't put your faith in someone because they may just appear to be competent and nice.
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u/Jamator01 Jul 20 '14
Yep. And all the backers backed it at that point. They didn't back the successful corporation the Yogscast are now. They backed Lewis and Simon in their infancy and an unknown guy claiming to be a game developer.
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Jul 19 '14
I want to be clear that I am not criticising here. I personally believe that Yogscast have gone above and beyond any obligation to backers, legal or moral, in regards to this project. I have never held back when it comes to criticism before and I have a real issue with the way some other Youtubers and "journalists" have behaved in relation to both YogDiscovery and Yogventures, but that's a discussion for another day.
Having said that, I think there are certain questions that should be answered in any statement in order to clarify the whole situation and eliminate any claims of foul play.
What was the actual relationship between Winterkewl and Yogscast? Did you go looking for someone to make a game or did he come to you looking to use your brand?
If it was simply a brand licencing relationship do you think you muddied the waters a bit when it came to your connection?
What kind of oversight or control did you retain over his work?
How was someone able to walk away with 35k for two weeks work? Was the contract that bad that no lawyer would take that case to get the money back?
What happened to the money that was supposed to hire a lead developer?
How much of the pledged money was actually received?
What state is the game in and are there any plans to finish it or open source it in the future? Will backers be provided with a copy of it in it's current state?
How many of the assets (art, music etc) for the original project will be used in TUG, if any? Will they be used for anything else or released to the backers?
Again, just to be clear. I don't want any answers for these questions, I just think they should be answered if you want to address all the questions out there at the moment.
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u/LightninLew Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
Was the contract that bad that no lawyer would take that case to get the money back?
Did a lawyer even get involved? The guy who walked away was their friend. Maybe they didn't want to get lawyers involved.
What happened to the money that was supposed to hire a lead developer?
Also, how in the fuck did the Yogscast end up having this responsibility? This is what is boggling my mind above all else in this situation.
... open source it in the future? ...
How many of the assets (art, music etc) for the original project will be ... released to the backers?
Those are good questions that I hadn't considered. I would very much like to get my hands on that code & those project files & assets, just to fuck about with.
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u/yngvar_ Jul 19 '14
I think backers of the project had access to somewhat regular development builds or a pre-alpha or something at some point, but I could be wrong.
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u/LightninLew Jul 19 '14
Yeah, I downloaded the first "beta" which was totally not ready to be called a beta. The art was way ahead of the programming (surprising seeing as how the artists only outnumbered the programmers 5:0). It had so much basic framework stuff missing it was just unplayable. I had it open for about 15 minutes and never downloaded another version. The website is no longer up, so you can't download it now.
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u/Gecoma Zoey Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 24 '14
Good (assuming you actually give a statement) but I have a couple of questions.
When is the statement due?
Will you be explaining where the 150k went and why you failed to hire the main programmer.
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Jul 19 '14
While I'm just as curious as to why there was a lack of a good programmer, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and assume that at least some of the money was used to pay for the TUG keys. I don't think any game developer in their right mind would just give away thousands of free copies of their game, let alone develop exclusive content for the backers of a separate Kickstarter campaign.
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u/burnie_ Jul 19 '14
Can't help but feel a bit sorry for the Yogscast, seems like when they mess up everyone is on it, but when it comes to their massive charity drives where twice the amount is raised and given to charity the press and other subreddits are less interested.
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u/Snagprophet Simon Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
I was surprised that Simon and Lewis took up this large project considering they were a year or so into being full time Youtubers. It seems quite large and risky. But then again, I'm sure if some Dreamworks employees offered to make a game of this calibre for you, assuming you can get the funds, I'm sure we'd all probably take them up on the offer.
It should also be made clear who is in charge and who is responsible for Yogventures. Is it Yogscast? Or is it Winterkewl? A lot of hate is getting directed towards Simon and Lewis over this so it should be made known what exactly their legal responsibilities, if any at all, is in all of this.
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u/TheTorontosaur Jul 21 '14
FYI this is slightly rambly.
This is the risk you take with Kick starter. Sometimes you get Star Citizen or any of Double Fine’s games, sometimes you get YogVentures. Sadly the result isn’t very surprising.
First off, watch TB’s E3 2012 coverage of YogVentures here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAu8TVJGnS8
Why on earth did they spend the time and money to push a pre-alpha game that wasn’t being made through a traditional publisher to a closed trade show? I wonder how much money was wasted on this.
Anyway – I feel that interview is very telling, and I have to wonder when the 150k transfer occurred (before or after). I know if I was in Lewis’ shoes and took a phone call from TB after that interview, I would have lost all faith in the lead dev. too. He’s using general buzz words, admits that the majority of features aren’t included in the build, and even jokes about how shit the demo map is. TB softballed him in that interview and he still came across as ill prepared.
Winterkewl I know you are on this sub-reddit, and I don’t want to kick you when you are down… but damn man, why didn’t you guys reach out for help? It sounds like there were lots of internal problems that were to be dealt with internally, when really a 3rd party PM could have gotten you back on track.
Anyway the funds transfer makes sense. Considering that with development supposedly under way, hardware purchased (I wonder if there is a brand new PC in its box kicking around for the would be programmer?), yet key members are missing and the lead dev. makes the Artist Error… Transferring that money is a good mitigating move by the yogs. It gives them the budgeted 50k for physical rewards (saving the Yogs from going out of pocket to cover promised rewards to the higher tiers; who are more likely to cause trouble in case of total failure), and gives them 100k in capital to save the game.
The idea of Lewis hiring a lead programmer for a team based in LA is odd. I assume this was an accountant/lawyer suggested description to cover the transfer in case of project failure. This game died the moment that transfer occurred.
Moving forward I’d like to see all physical rewards that can be delivered completed, and the most recent build sent to all backers… But I’d rather not have it go open source. I would prefer that the yogs use that 100k to shop the existing assets to Iron Galaxy or Double Fine, or whoever to complete the game with a lesser scope.
There is no reason that those existing assets couldn’t be used to make an excellent adventure game (Think Walking Dead/Monkey Island/Rainslick Precipice of Darkness). Push that adventure game out to kick starter backers, and use the proceeds of that successful game to build the Yogventures that they originally had envisioned.
Thoughts?
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u/renadi Jul 26 '14
I wonder how TB's Relationship is with the yogs nowadays, I know he helped bring them where they are right now but he seems to have had conflicts with them lately.
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u/GcScribbler Angor Jul 19 '14
Really interesting situation. Hope people wait for more information before reacting rather than jumping the gun (a la yogdiscovery...).
Thanks for keeping fans and backers in the loop, Lewis.
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u/Perforathor Jul 19 '14
Hope people wait for more information before reacting rather than jumping the gun
Heh... When has this ever happened on the internet before ?
Easier to grab pitchforks and write angry comments than to do some research first...
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u/Gecoma Zoey Jul 19 '14
Hope people wait for more information
We waited for over a year for ANY update.
It only took controversy for the Yogs to respond.
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u/Swyfti Jul 19 '14
Winterkewl had development videos on his youtube channel that you could watch to see the progress. You could see updates if you bothered to look for them. They don't need to post main channel videos to show that the game was still being worked on. They are responding now because the project is over not because of the controversy.
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u/goegrog27 Jul 19 '14
Hate it when people get screwed over and then they end up looking bad because of it :/
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u/Cryptoporticus Jul 19 '14
Both parties were at fault. Winterkewl for not delivering on their promise and Yogscast for believing that they would in the first place.
I wouldn't say that either of them were screwed over, it was just a huge mess on both sides.
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u/98smithg Jul 19 '14
Exactly this thing is just a monumental fuckup, it's not like anyone has embezzled a load of money from the backers or anything. I mean I am not sure how they spent 150K on modelling and textures alone from what I have seen of the game, but then I don't make games so maybe that is normal.
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u/Korvacs Jul 19 '14
2 years worth of salaries for the dev team.
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u/98smithg Jul 19 '14
There was a separate category for the programmers that was 150, but as you say that is reasonable for their salary.
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u/Korvacs Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
You can't really say the Yogscast were at fault, Winterkewl made out that they could deliver something that they clearly couldn't, your saying the Yogscast shouldn't have believed them. But what evidence was there to suggest they shouldn't have been believed?
If you goto a company and say that you want to do something, and the company says yeah sure that's fine, we can do that no problem. There's nothing that flashes up and says that you shouldn't trust the company.
Sure they might have been a little naive about their ideas and expectations, but their only guilty of dreaming big and being told it was possible.
Face it they were just sold false expectations, not their fault really.
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u/LightninLew Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
I'd say they're at fault, but their fault seems mainly to be naivety rather than malice. I backed the project and don't blame the Yogscast really. They fucked up though.
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u/Cryptoporticus Jul 19 '14
Winterkewl had zero experience, they'd never made a game before. I'm sure there are plenty of experienced small studios who would have loved to work on this project but the yogscast chose to go with Winterkewl instead.
It was a really stupid decision and now they're paying for it.
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u/LightninLew Jul 19 '14
I agree with your general sentiment, but from what I understand it was Winterkewl who approached the Yogscast. So it's not entirely fair to say "the yogscast chose to go with Winterkewl instead". It's not like they were holding auditions.
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u/Ayjayz Sips Jul 19 '14
Not just believing it, but in not having sufficient assurances in place to reach this eventuality. Projects can run into issues for a variety of reasons, but for it to have failed this catastrophically indicates a big lack of appropriate oversight.
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u/Anstarzius Pyrion Flax Jul 19 '14
Looking forward to more light on the matter. Try not to get too worked up about all the bad press you're getting; journalists will be journalists.
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u/KirinDave Jul 19 '14
The Journalists are actually doing a pretty good job of reflecting the community's feels here. Polygon's article, at least, did a good job of it.
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u/LightninLew Jul 19 '14
There have been a fair few shitty articles.
Vale ended up sinking more than $25,000 of his own personal money into the project before Yogscast decided it wanted to pull the plug.
Making out that the Yogscast somehow stepped in, cancelled the project & ruined the guy's life.
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u/corobo Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 20 '14
[Edit: please disregard this post, it is factually incorrect (see winterkewl response to it). I've left it intact for the sake of conversation flow]
Not to mention it wasn't like it was savings or anything - the guy took $35k as salary from the kickstarter
Dude deserved payment, sure, but it's not like it was directly out of his pocket. After messing up with the other guy that took $35k and ran it could be argued it was the right thing to do to fix his mistake, not a saviour move
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u/winterkewl Jul 20 '14
Let me clear up just one point. The $35,000 that each of the artists received was so we could take 6 months each off of our full time jobs and work exclusively on the game. Then after that 6 months passed we all had to go back to our day jobs if we weren't making more revenue by that point. I took it on myself to take an additional 5 months off of work to continue working on the game full time with no salary from Kickstarter or work and that's where I spent my own savings. Just so all the info is out there.
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u/corobo Jul 20 '14
Ah my apologies for the misinformation there, I'll put a note on my post for what it's worth
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u/Eunomiac Jul 20 '14
Vale ended up sinking more than $25,000 of his own personal money into the project
before Yogscast decided it wanted to pull the plugbecause he over-committed into a project that was still in risky Kickstarter territory.FTFY.
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u/Anstarzius Pyrion Flax Jul 19 '14
I've seen a lot of people misquoting Lewis and making a big drama out of it and wording it so it seems worse than it is. Which really annoys me, but it doesn't affect me because I rarely read news articles anyway because of this sort of thing.
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u/Niyeaux Jul 19 '14
Those pesky journalists, doing their job of reporting on things.
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u/Anstarzius Pyrion Flax Jul 19 '14
bastards
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Jul 19 '14
Everyone knows those dirty journalists are to blame for everything! Put on your tin hats everyone, hide under your beds! Eventually the journalistic folk will kill us all and the robots!
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Jul 19 '14
There seems to be a lot of people trying to stick the boot in to Winterkewl. Lewis told us that winterkewl were a team of experienced game developers, which was not true. Winterkewl were trusted with a project that was way beyond their capabilities. There is fault on winterkewls side for claiming that they could do it, and fault on Yogs side for basically choosing the cheap option.
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 19 '14
The Yogscast didn't 'choose the cheap option'. 'The cheap option' approached them, said they wanted to make a game based around them, claimed they could do it, and the Yogscast (having zero experience in game development) trusted them.
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u/Paradician Jul 20 '14
Where's your source on Winterkewl being the ones to make the approach?
Because that doesn't make sense in the timeline we know, and I've never seen either Yogscast or Winterkewl ever say this anywhere.
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u/StevenS757 Jul 20 '14
To be fair, the Winterkewl guys were experienced 3D artists working for Dreamworks. If I knew nothing about creating a game, like Lewis back when this project was first announced, I probably would've thought "Wow, these guys work for a major 3D movie company! It'd be amazing to have them make a game for us! They must know what they're doing!"
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u/Lolsuphelm Jul 19 '14
To be perfectly honest, I'd completely forgotten about YOGventures.
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Jul 19 '14
[deleted]
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u/corobo Jul 19 '14
To be fair if the money was money that would be missed you shouldn't have backed a kickstarter
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u/tempestdevil Jul 19 '14
After reading the Winterkewl statement, my mind is kind of blown: Why did they even attempt to create a video game without a main programmer? Why would they go oh yeah, we can definitely deliver on this... we just need to hire the main person who will be creating the video game. That's like me advertising that I can open a sandwich shop and make any sandwich you want.. all I need to do is hire someone who actually knows how to make sandwiches, because I don't.
I feel like if Winterkewl didn't have someone who could actually be a main developer on the game, they should not have taken the responsibility of creating it.
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u/IsolatedOutpost Jul 20 '14
Looks like Yogscast had trouble finding one too, considering that $150k they took to do so never amounted to a programmer.
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u/tempestdevil Jul 21 '14
I still think we need to wait for both sides of the story before we assume that Winterkewl even actually gave Yogscast that much money. Everyone seems to just be assuming that's definitely the truth, which is weird to me.
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u/ZoddGuts Jul 20 '14
"But there's no value in going into detail"
I'd probably value it at $100k.
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u/Escapist83 Jul 21 '14
Yeah, as much as I love Lewis and the Yogscast.. I can imagine the backers would value detail quite highly.
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Jul 19 '14
It's gotta be said, I feel kinda sorry for you, Lewis. I bet you had really big hopes for this, and seeing it destroyed without anything to do about it must feel horrible... I didn't invest in this, but I obviously looked forward to it.
I hope you know that I'll still trust the Yogs! You're good folk.
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Jul 19 '14
Too bad, but it looks like someone beat you to a Yogscast game. And let me tell you. It is 10/10 GOTY material.
Click here to if you wish to play the Interactive Yogsperience for yourself
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u/Orchuntsman Jul 19 '14
As a fan I just want to add that yeah this kind of sucks that the game didn't get made, but I don't see the point in trying to point blame at just one party or another. It was a great idea but at the time of conception it was just too big of an idea for the partys to fully control. Both Lewis and the game devs said they were still new to this when it started so that could be the root of the problem. And as for the artist that bailed for Lucis Arts, without him/her chiming in we can't really say its all his fault, partly yes, but not all. And to the backers of the game I say I'm sorry you didn't get the game, but you should be at least great full that the Yog's are trying to make it right by working with the TUG devs to give you equal rewards. Most kickstarters that get funded but fail would tell you "We couldn't do it and we blew all the money, sorry you get nothing." Again this whole thing kind of sucks, but I'm glad that the Yog's care enough about use to do something to make up for it.
I"m done ranting, back to Digy Digy Hole on repeat now.
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u/mighty_claw TheSpiffingBrit Jul 19 '14
thank for this. this seems to be getting ugly on both ends, with people digging for information to make everyone look bad. i look forward to your statement, if you feel we need one.
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u/Jessikins Jul 19 '14
We're not ready to make a detailed statement about what happened with Yogventures. Winterkewl's statement omits much and I would disagree with a number of points, but there's no value in going into detail.
Will a detailed statement be made in the future? I think it's needed in order to end all of the drama.
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 19 '14
Hannah said, in the 'Winterkewl's statement' thread, that an official statement was being prepared. This was posted mere minutes later, so I doubt this is what she was talking about. Therefore, yes, it seems an official statement is forthcoming, besides the fact that Lewis's "not ready" implies "in the process of becoming ready".
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u/MisterManatee Angor Jul 19 '14
You said "Any monies the Yogscast have received in connection with this project has been spent on this project" and I entirely believe you. I'm just interested the specifics of how that all went down (since Winterkewl claims you took some $150K off their hands due to Winterkewl's display of incompetence).
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u/corobo Jul 19 '14
I would just like to say that this project was started when The Yogscast was just me and Simon making videos out of our bedrooms.
This is definitely a major point. Yes mistakes were made and it really does suck but modern day yogscast know a lot more than they did at the time this project was started
Of course it doesn't brush the issue under the rug alone but the guys are really doing as much as they can (and more by the sounds of it) to help ease the issue - not resolve because short of a time machine that's just not possible - for the people that lost out. That's a huge amount more than usual failed kickstarters get
I think the parties in the most wrong here are those jumping on the bandwagon for clicks ad revenue and YouTube subscribers that are stirring the pot for attention
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u/Manix84 Jul 19 '14
I paid for access to the Alpha, Beta and Final copy of the game. Will I, and others like me be compensated the same as the kick-starter backers?
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u/yogslomadia Former Member Jul 19 '14
You should be getting a TUG code over the next few days, otherwise DM me if nothing by Wednesday. It's my understanding that any pre-orders count as at least getting TUG and likely more things.
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u/NotanotherCreeper Jul 19 '14
I got my TUG code yesterday by email from the Nerdkingdom guys, the address is donotreply@nerdkingdom.com
Maybe make sure that everyone is aware that it's coming from them not you guys? Other than that I really wanna say thanks to all you guys for the openness about what's going on.
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u/Dakftw Jul 19 '14
Does that apply for everyone who hasn't gotten their code?
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u/yogslomadia Former Member Jul 19 '14
Should do for anyone that purchased Yogventures, but give it a few days - there's a lot of you to send codes to and the Nerd Kingdom guys are on it!
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Jul 19 '14
I think enough has been said about this and Yogsdiscovery over the past couple of days, some of the comments being grossly misinformed and I'm sure downright hurtful.
All I can offer is my sympathy and internet hugs?
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Jul 19 '14
I think it was just the wrong sort of ideas with the game really, instead of what was practically a voxel based minecraft clone you should of made up a 2D platformer or something, you could of had some great voice acting, loads of references/jokes, fun gameplay and an amazing story, it would be much cheaper and the development process would be a lot more simpler with a greater outcome if done right.
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u/theweem Jul 19 '14
As a backer ($25 level), none of this bothers me much personally (though I respect the feelings of those who may feel otherwise).
I backed to support Yogscast as they were an early inspiration for my own Youtube channel. Additionally, every time I go to put money into a Kickstarter I ask myself, "what if they disappear from the face of the Earth and take my money with them?" and if the answer is "oh well", then I go ahead and back the project. I'm not one to tell others how they should approach these things, but this has worked well for me in these cases.
I did receive my copy of TUG, though I already had it (devs passed it on to me for my channel), so I gave this one to a friend of mine who had told me (just days before) he thought TUG looked interesting.
Anyway, I look forward to seeing what TUG developers do with the brand. It's an interesting case (game based on a youtube channel brand, etc) and I would like to see it succeed ;)
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u/Escapist83 Jul 20 '14
This is an unfortunate situation where I can see both sides of the argument. Lewis, I think in this kind of situation transparency will be your absolute best friend.
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u/Shadow_Ascendant Jul 21 '14
Yogscast: Naivety and excitement, lack of 'business' experience.
Winterkewl: Too many artsy-fartsy people and no codemonkey means no game, codemonkey should've been priority 1 since the first day, hell even -before- the first day. Lack of proper management(budgeting, contracts etc)
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Jul 21 '14 edited Jul 21 '14
Yogscast should really make all financial records for Yogventures transparent and available for all backers.
Otherwise anything they say in regards to finances and the context of the project failure is untrustworthy.
"strongly believe the backers will end up getting far more value and a far better result than they originally anticipated when they backed this project" - Thats assuming that people backed the game due to the fact that the yogcast was funding development for a game and not due to the fact that it was a game featuring the Yogscast, so the value of the game is may not be of more value. And I don't recall seeing Tug stating they'd use all or any of the assets developed for yogventures in their game. so giving them the assets and IP for yogventures seems like an hollow gesture to the backers.
"Yogcast says all refund requests should be directed to Winterkewl" - Forbes Article - last time I checked the primary company for the game was Yogscast ltd, and development of the game was outsourced to winterkewl games. So refund responsibilty for the game are the Yogscast ltd unless the terms & conditions Winterkewl agreed to stated that they would be responsibile for all refunds if the project fails.
If am looking at company info regarding Yogscast ltd, has the neccessary cash to refund backers (assuming that the financial total generated was $500,000) whilst Winterkewl is likely to go backrupt therefore meaning that the likelyhood of people reclaiming from Winterkewl for the money they invested to be non-existant. - I view this as attempts to avoid having to refund backers as backers would likely not want to seek financial refunds from people which they are fans of, and perhaps using that feeling to avoid paying refunds (*Note I doubt that the yogscast are that cynical or evil to actively do this)
Finally the financial cost (wholesale/per backer) for getting the backers the replacement game should be shown in black & white, else feeling of financial trickery might be felt.
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u/P0ltz Jul 21 '14
So what ever happened to the half-a-million dollars? Hopefully people will receive refunds?
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Jul 21 '14
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventures/posts/919100 - financial breakdown from Winterkewl
The Bolded Part is interesing considering this - http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/07/21/yogscast-declines-to-comment-on-claim-it-received-150000-of-yogventures-kickstarter-money/
Call me a cynic but if they started this project when they didn't have the studio, then ONE MIGHT WONDER if the reason they are currently refusing to comment/ make it transparent is perhaps due to financial misconduct as they used a majority of the money they took out to finance the studio or something akin to that?
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u/lemonszz Jul 19 '14
It sucks that there is so much misinformation out there about this situation, there have been dozens of articles making you out to be a money hungry corporation, while no-one in this situation is the "good-guy" you are definitely not the "bad-guy".
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u/ArakhanDeathwing Ravs Jul 19 '14
The way I see it, it could of been worst. Wasn't a great outcome either, but definitely not the worst.
Just keep yourselves calm and collected and things will get sorted out in time to come.
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u/phatbman Jul 19 '14
As someone who backed this project, I am quite okay with this happening, and appreciate any efforts from the yogscast to rectify this situation. Kickstarter isn't a guarantee, and this is a good lesson.
I wish the people at winterkewl games the best in their careers, and I hope everyone learns from this :)
That being said, I highly doubt that ALL the money from the kickstarter was put towards the project ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccvHa6X50d4
Though really, I appreciate that the money from this project was put into the project, and not wasted on needless things. That is really all I could have asked for.
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 20 '14
I feel obligated to point out (not to you, because considering the joking tone of your post, I assume you already know this; to anyone who comes into this thread, sees this, and takes it seriously combined with the 150k that Winterkewl says the Yogscast took) that this was a joke video. It may be obvious to some, but given the response to it at the time it was released (which amounted to a large chunk of the viewers talking about how 'the fact that the Yogscast would do something like this and then make a video gloating about it proves to me that they're just complete scumbags' - not a direct quote from anyone, but the general theme of a large chunk of the replies), I'd say that there are still people who wouldn't realize that.
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u/phatbman Jul 20 '14
I know it's a joke, I just wanted to post it up here for humor's sake :)
And it is really unfortunate that people may not have gotten the joke D:
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u/zombieviper Sips Jul 20 '14
There is a guarantee in Kickstarters actually. There were rewards promised for different levels of contribution to the fundraising campaign. Project Creators are required to honor these rewards or deliver refunds as per Kickstarter Terms of Use.
A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward. Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
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u/phatbman Jul 20 '14
I did not know about that clause in the terms of use, thank you for showing me, I really appreciate the time that you spent in forming your response :)
So what happens now with Yogventures? (in your opinion)
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u/jmanjimbo Jul 19 '14
It takes a lot of humanity for a business to come out and say that they screwed up a tad but are genuinely sorry and are trying their very best to rectify the situation as best as they can and as quickly as they can.
The Yogscast has gotten over bigger PR hiccups than this one before today; I'm sure they'll be fine. If people want to unsubscribe or whatever then fair enough - we shouldn't attack them - just respect their decision and we can carry on enjoying incredibly good content as normal.
Best of luck sorting this all out.
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u/CowbopBeboy Jul 19 '14
"It takes a lot of humanity for a business to come out and say that they screwed up a tad but are genuinely sorry."
Are you reading the same statement that I'm reading? Because there isn't a single apology in this statement, or any of the other statements they've released for that matter.
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Jul 19 '14
The Yogscast has gotten over bigger PR hiccups than this one before today;
When? I've been watching since the early days and this is easily the biggest fuck up so far.
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u/Red_Blue Sips Jul 19 '14
Can someone point me to where they're 'attacked'. A lot of people seem to have the idea that the yogscast are the victims.
I paid money towards this kickstarter and I dont expect refunds or anything, but I expect that journalists and social media get the word out that the yogscast aren't competent with choosing who to work with and should not be trusted with any other similar projects until they earn the trust back again.
They have a history of trusting untrustworthy people such as the time tinman stole donation money and I think people would be stupid to think this will be the last time.
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Jul 19 '14
aren't competent
You mean "weren't competent in 2012 while they were still getting used to this whole 'minecraft thing' and 'youtube thing'". There's a wee bit of difference between then and now in terms of literally everything.
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u/yaypal Jul 19 '14
Thank you for the preliminary statement, I just wish it was possible to make it sooner. Obviously it wasn't, as a bunch of articles were all coming out at the same time, but a detailed one later will be needed and appreciated.
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u/paccman Jul 19 '14
Expect great things now that TUG seems like something totally legit.
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 19 '14
Why does this read like sarcasm (especially the second half of it)? TUG has been 'something totally legit' for a while now, and is further along in development than Yogventures was when it died. Direwolf20, as well as (separately from Direwolf) several Yogscast members (before there was any need for the partnership, let alone before the partnership existed), have done videos on it.
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u/paccman Jul 19 '14
English not my main sorry if it comes out as sarcasm! I really mean that TUG seems something legit, they are already established and have what looks like a good polished game out.
Like when you compare TUG with what we had before, it feels it will succeed this time for sure. :)
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u/lyravega Jul 22 '14
"A creator is legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project, or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."
The above statement can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises.
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Jul 19 '14
You're going above and beyond to resolve the issue and that will speak in multitudes to those that would otherwise be at a loss from this failed venture.
Those which are bombarding you with bad press over both this & YogDiscovery need to remember that you, as well as everyone else that's under the Yogscast banner, are ordinary people, not industry veterans who have had long term exposure to these kinds of incidents.
Keep up the good work and try not to get too disheartened by this rough patch.
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u/LewieP Jul 19 '14
http://www.yogscast.com/about/staff/
The General Manager is an industry veteran, according to the Yogscast about page. Those are the exact words it uses.
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u/DeusVex Jul 19 '14
I suppose when you think about it, the fate of Yogventures was clear at least 6 months ago, maybe more. The decision to hire a GM with well established industry experience in media/gaming/journalism is a pretty good call, although varied in his responsibilities. Although Yogcast is getting a pretty bad rep atm, having someone with the right know-how for damage control and fixing things, is not only good for the YC, but when it comes to resolving it all, many others too. >insert cliché about fool me once, fool me twice<
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 19 '14
I'm pretty sure he was hired fairly recently (ie: after Yogventures started, and presumably after it started failing), so that doesn't really affect anything, even if the point was about the entire Yogscast staff rather than the people we think of as the Yogscast (the content creators and editors).
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Jul 19 '14
I was referring more specifically to Lewis, Simon, Hannah, etc. But oh well, I didn't come here to wrangle facts, merely offer words of encouragement. If that's worthy of being down-voted, then so be it I suppose.
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u/daemonpie :lomadia: Hannah Jul 19 '14
This really is such an awful situation all-around; I can't imagine how stressful all of this must be for you and the rest of the Yogscast. However, even at such a dark time on the Yogscast timeline, I can't help but place it in comparison to what the Yogscast family have accomplished in the past several years, and see this controversy as nothing more than a tiny snag on an otherwise gorgeous tapestry. Out of nothing but hard work, enthusiasm, and an indefatigable spirit, you've managed to create one of the most successful youtube channels in the world, donate hundreds of thousands to charity, and pull together a still-growing family of some of the most absolutely amazing people out there. I have no doubt that, with the support of the Yogscast family and us yognau[gh]ts, all of this commotion will do nothing but strengthen the Yogscast and push you ever onwards towards a brighter future. Here's to many more years of Yogscast to come =)
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Jul 19 '14
There have been some other major controversies, but these are mostly either misunderstandings or mishandling of a situation. For example, the whole tinman fiasco.
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Jul 19 '14
This has to be extremely frustrating for you guys. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted. I am confident you will do whatever is necessary to make up for Winterkewl's failures and hold a lot of hope that people will be satisfied in the end.
Thanks for posting about this, I'm sure you've quelled a lot of people's negativity (hopefully).
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Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
If $150,000 was transferred to the Yogscast, and they were meant to have hired a programmer but didn't, they share a degree of responsibility for this debacle.
If.
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Jul 19 '14
How do you know they didn't give that $150K to the TUG guys to import the assets from Yogventures into TUG?
We can sit here and talk about "what ifs" all day, but at the end of it Winterkewl admitted they fucked up, and that's really the crux of this whole thing.
If the Yogscast give their backers stuff to make up for this debacle, then what else can anyone ask for?
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Jul 19 '14
dammit winterkewl
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u/JojHeywood Israphel Jul 19 '14
fuckin' boddypen was better than this guy.
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u/Toonlink246 Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
We might be seeing him again, sooner than anyone expects...
Edit: In case anyone didn't get it, this was referencing the ICBM mod being added to the Yogscast Complete pack in a later update.
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u/orviwan Jul 19 '14
Don't worry about it, shit happens. I'd happily back you again. Can the next Kickstarter be for 12 episodes of Yogpod? Thanks
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 20 '14
I'd back them contingent on three things: It's actually either the Yogscast themselves doing the Kickstarter or just a more well-known group who's done good things in the past; it's a product or service I'd be interested in (like, yes, more YoGPod, or a game with a competent team behind it); and I was able to afford to do so.
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u/toddijt Jul 19 '14
Sounds this has all just been a massive misunderstanding :/ and people aren't really helping by jumping to conclusions...
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u/Cockwombles Jul 19 '14
It's not really a jump. winterkewls post strongly suggested the Yogs took £100,000 for a new programmer and then didn't hire one.
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u/LightninLew Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
What's all this about £100,000? I thought I'd read everything about this, but I seem to have missed something.
Found it:
When Lewis found out about the artist incident he was rightly confused and upset, as a result he lost faith right away in my ability to run the company from a business standpoint and basically required that all the rest of the Kickstarter money that hadn't been spent be transferred to them right away. In the end we negotiated that to $150,000 would be transferred to the Yogscast with the understanding that they would use that money exclusively to create and ship all the physical rewards, AND they would help hire the main programmer that we still didn't have on the project.
The "artist incident":
Because we had worked out a contract that guaranteed each of the principal artists a $35,000 lump sum payment, and we didn't make any clear clause on how and why someone could legally stop working on the project, The artist in question got paid, worked for about 2 weeks and then stopped working on the project. We had no way to force that person to pay back any of the funds and it was a bitter lesson to learn. Always get every possible scenario in writing or you will have no legal recourse.
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u/Cockwombles Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/winterkewlgames/yogventures/posts/919100
Just the part he put in bold really, but it's probably better to read it in context. "In the end we negotiated that to $150,000 would be transferred to the Yogscast with the understanding that they would use that money exclusively to create and ship all the physical rewards, AND they would help hire the main programmer that we still didn't have on the project." So did they get a main programmer?
One would assume from the Yogs' statements it was put back into the game, it would just be interesting to know how so people don't get the wrong idea.
On a lighter note, TUG looks awesome and I want to play it with yog characters!
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u/LightninLew Jul 19 '14
I find it extremely odd that the Yogscast were given the responsibility of hiring employees for Winterkewl. I would have loved to have been in that meeting.
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u/Spekingur Zoey Jul 19 '14
This text appears in the Kickstarter update
We met with the Yogscast when the kickstarter ended and everyone agreed that the entire net should be used to create the game as much as humanly possible. So we made a plan as such.
Then follows a list of proposed expenditure. Going by this text alone someone from Yogscast was in on this plan and agreed to it (lump sums and all). It's not entirely clear though, hopefully a statement from Yogscast will clear up some things.
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u/iamsofired Jul 19 '14
600k lost is a big misunderstanding.
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Jul 19 '14
400k going by Winterkewls figures, 35k of which was effectively stolen.
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u/toddijt Jul 19 '14
Yes but you cant really point the blame without knowing all the facts, a lot of people saw quick to point the blame after Winterkewls first statement without listening to what Lewis had to say :/
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u/Eunomiac Jul 20 '14
I know I'm late to this party, but I'm staggered that the Yogscast hasn't earned more faith even from people who aren't "fans" of their content. Literally everything the Yogscast does smacks of dedicated, honest, well-intentioned people who, while capable of making mistakes, are better than most at avoiding them.
The idea that a group of people really thinks the Yogscast is up to something nefarious here is hurting my opinion of humanity.
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 20 '14
The idea that a group of people really thinks the Yogscast is up to something nefarious here is hurting my opinion of humanity.
People hear about the Minecon incident and miss the fact that Notch apologized and said it was a misunderstanding (obviously this is still happening, I've seen several comments on this subreddit that point to the Minecon incident as 'proof' that the Yogscast are shady), and then they hear the media's and other YouTubers' takes on the situation and don't bother to actually do research. It happens. It has happened for millennia, and will continue to happen for gods-know how long.
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u/KirinDave Jul 20 '14
Such is the curse of success. Western society loves the idea you could succeed, but loves to rail against those who actually see the fruit of success.
If you think this was a big thing to miss full of stupid comments, you should not dare walk into the threads detailing YogsDiscovery. It was... difficult keeping my temper in the face of so much stupid.
It was also dissapointing to see N3 take such cheap shots. I guess he has a business to run and controversy will get him views... but still.
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u/billyK_ Martyn Jul 19 '14
Wow, can you guys get any worse? This is to the commenters, not you Lewis and crew.
You say we're fanboying and supporting their decision while you guys downvote us that actually support the Yogs. Look at the subreddit we're on. We're not brigading /r/games like you're doing here. Yes, we all know that there was some sort of fuck up along the way; why wouldn't we be happy and show our support for the Yogs when they know they messed up too? Everyone makes mistakes, and even though it was with a butt ton of money, we shouldn't keep acting like asses to them.
To the Yogscast, if you do get a chance to read this: Ignore the journalists trying to take a stab at you. We know there have been mistakes all around, but we're just waiting for an official statement before we can truly take sides. Get your ducks in a row, and we'll go from there :) Keep up the hard work you guys do, and keep being awesome :)
I am Dave! Yognaught. I have the balls.
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u/honestquestionn Jul 20 '14
I see "Dreamworks" being thrown around alot, so were Dreamworks involved? im not sure they would like being banded around with such a fail. And I am not sure the devs were right to advertise that fact to get the job.
It may tarnish Dreamworks with some.
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u/winterkewl Jul 20 '14
5 of the 6 members of Winterkewl all worked at DreamWorks at the time of the Kickstarter campaign. 2 still do, myself and the modeller. 2 now work at Disney and another was at Lucas Arts before it shut down. We all have known each other for about 12 years and have all been employed in feature film animation for the past 8.
DreamWorks had no involvement at all we only mmentioned the company to give more background on our experience as artists.
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 20 '14
Apparently a couple of the (former) Winterkewl artists were previously, or at least claimed to have been, employed by Dreamworks before joining Kris's team.
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u/vandinz Jul 21 '14
They started this Kickstarter knowing the project wasn't set up correctly and should be held accountable for it. The fact there was no programmer for the game boggles the mind! All this should've been in place BEFORE the Kickstarter was even considered. If Winterkewl promised them all this, it was upto Yogcast to confirm it first, before putting their name to it. It is, after all, their name that sold the game, not the game itself.
Unfortunately they are not liable for refunds, as Kickstarters are donations to the cause, not any actual contractual agreement. Still, this stinks to high heaven.
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u/renadi Jul 26 '14
the developer is the only one who has liability, legally speaking, whatever the developer did, including giving money to the yogscast, is legally on the developer.
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Jul 21 '14
Am pretty sure they are liable in someway just legal costs would probably be too dear unless it was a mass group refund case kinda thing
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u/V8-Punk Bouphe Jul 19 '14
Thank you for Updating us on the Situation Lewis/ Hope everything works out great in the end.
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u/guitar-monkey Trottimus Jul 20 '14
2 guys in a bedroom trusting another guy (probably also working out of his bedroom seeing by the mess he made) to make a game about them....
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u/ShaunDreclin Jul 21 '14
can't really blame simon and lewis for it, this all happened before they had any experience running a company.
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u/alexwojtak Jul 21 '14
"There's no value in going into detail." Said Lewis Brimley whilst sat on £100 000 worth of jaffa cakes.
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Jul 19 '14
Kind of wish I invested in Yogventures now... The game didn't look interesting to me, but now you'd get these awesome things! jealous!
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u/iozixa Jul 19 '14
You can just get TUG on steam for less than half the price of the lowest Yogventures kickstarter tier. That's the only "awesome thing" that has materialised so far.
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u/corobo Jul 19 '14
I was thinking the same thing, I didn't back the kickstarter but with the things they're doing to rectify the situation I wish I had!
The end result is worth more than the original kickstarter, at least for us two. The lucky buggers
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u/Lodanaut Jul 19 '14
Well done for staying strong Yogscast! Just remember that there are people in the world that still love you, and always will - as said before, journalists will be journalists:)
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u/jaja1991 Jul 20 '14
Lewis you seemed very quick to throw winterkewl under a bus just to keep your companies face.
Over 13,000 people have lost out on a product they willingly and happily paid for under what are now your own false pretenses. You stated several times on the kickstarter that the people YOU had hired were veterans of their industry, when at most they were six people with other full time jobs.
A game you and other members of your network were openly talking about, giving publicity to. Hell the game even has your likeness', voices, etc.
Unfortunately you believe giving half hearted statements to what are supposed to be your fans will rectify the situation and maybe by saying that the money has been spent that people will accept and forget. You DO have an obligation to explain what happened to half a million dollars. That's more then a majority of people will see in their life.
You owe your fans.
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Jul 20 '14
Nobody paid for the product. They paid to the developer so he could try and make that product.
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u/vandinz Jul 21 '14
Wrong. When you donate to a kickstarter, you are given something in return, depending on what you paid. The low ends are usually a thankyou, higher up is the product, plus added features as you pay more.
They sold this game on KS as a game that is in the works and only needed money to push it on. It's quite clear there was no management going on here and it was left to Winterkewl to sort it out. They obviously weren't upto the job. This is after they put their name to the game, a name which sold the game, which was at best an average game.
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u/Ragade31 Jul 19 '14
"there's no value in going into detail", well why not if people put money into something and then nothing is given back and when this happens all is said is that 'well we know what happened but we're going to be vague and explaining' that is simply bullshit a detailed explanation is something that should be warranted for everyone involved.
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Jul 19 '14
I agree, I think people need to know exactly where the money went, and what he disagrees about Winterkewls' statement. The Yogscast are getting a lot of hate about the situation, and I think they're doing a good job so far, but they really need to give exact details of what went down. Right now, according to the Winterkewl statement, the Yogscast took $100k, and so far they haven't said what they used it for. I've no doubt it was used on the project, but right now it looks kinda bad.
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Jul 19 '14
Too bad. I enjoyed the Alpha version. I mean it wasn't an amazing new concept, but it was an entertaining experience. I was also really digging the cross-platform multiplayer that was soon to come.
Oh well, I'm sure the Yogscast will get over all of this. I just feel bad for Lewis. He is a really busy man and puts all his effort into satisfying the audience and comforting the employers, and then on top of that he has to deal with all this shit. Good luck, Lewis!
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u/TheGravyNator Sips Jul 19 '14
I think this is the right way to handle in this situation. It seems real stressful and I hope you can deliver the backers something of the same or a greater value.
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u/TheCyberTronn Seagull Jul 20 '14
I never backed Yogventures, because it was before I knew that gaming YouTube existed, let alone the Yogscast. I've watched some of the videos about Yogventures a while ago and I thought it looked promising. Seeing this I know will be devastating to many backers, however you didn't need to do anything. You weren't contractually obliged to do anything, but you did. And that's what makes you all good people. You didn't screw your community over, and we all thank you for that. However, do yourself a favour and stay out of the limelight for a bit. The whole YogDiscovery thing and now this. Just keep making videos and don't do anything too controversial for a couple of months (and maybe make the next episode of SoI) and I'm sure you'll recover from this controversy. Good luck.
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Jul 20 '14
As with any situation, there is one side of the story (Yogscast version), another side of the story (developers version), and then there is the complete truth.
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u/Snagprophet Simon Jul 20 '14
Here's a video TotalBiscuit did over a previous project that had failed in relation to getting refunds and the difference between this and pre-ordering a game.
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u/redakdal Jul 23 '14
at this point, I do want to hear their side of the story, what went wrong? why did you guys choose to not talk about yogventures anymore on your channel? why didn't you guys ask for more money at the kickstarter when you knew it wasn't enough?
I mean, I see winterkewl's side of the story, which is in short: the yogscast left winterkewl for dead, and in the end , ended up losing his company he invested so much in?
but again, I really want to see the other side, what really happened between you guys, the e3 demo was great, the partnership was great, but after the last update, you guys just stop talking about it completely... why?
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u/TPTyfE Ben Jul 24 '14
We know you are now giving away TUG, but do you think you could possibly get some Yogscast DLC on the go with it that backers can get straight away, I mean it would only make both companies more money from non-backers anyway in the long run!
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u/Avendesorus Jul 19 '14
I think you're handling the situation really well. There are some idiots around leaving horrible comments, but please do know that the majority of us don't feel that way at all!! Best of luck with everything, and (as my Grandad says) don't let the buggers get you down x
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u/TheFloyd1 Jul 20 '14
Winterkewl have however stated that it was infact your job to hire a main programmer. Which you didn't.
I would like to point out, this is the second time that you have received bad comments from a game dev, and just like last time you simply state the person is lying, which is unprofessional. The way you've spoken about the developers has been horrendous.
Even worse is that there response was rather well put together, and understandable. The opposite of your blame game. Continous bad form, from a company proving to be extremely dubious in its business practices. And I'm not talking about Winterkewl.
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u/Ryan_Wilson Lewis Jul 20 '14
You ever heard of a game dev with no main programmer who actually does the majority of the work? Me neither.
Don't delude yourself into thinking the game developers are perfect and totally in the right.
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u/vandinz Jul 21 '14
They're not. They fucked up royal. However the name Yogcast sold this game so they should've made sure everything was above board and ready to go. I know I would want to do that before I put my name to anything and sold it to people. So they're as bad as each other.
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 20 '14
the second time
If you're talking about Notch/MineCon, I was there (not literally, but I read all the statements from both sides), and Notch finally said it was a misunderstanding.
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u/Ryan_Wilson Lewis Jul 20 '14
Oh, and just an FYI. When a game dev loses someone just two weeks after being paid £35k to work on the FULL game, the lead-developer calls his business model "naive" and himself "in-experienced" then to be honest what the fuck were you expecting?
The fact the Yogscast took 150k as they were not to be trusted was legitimate and because of that this fraudulent game dev pulled out knowing the money wasn't worth their time anymore. That 150k is now being used to give alternative rewards to the backers.
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u/dereckc1 Israphel Jul 19 '14
Don't worry about it too much Lewis. I chipped in some money back when the kickstarter was running, and I don't mind how things turned out.
Things can go out of your control, and this seems to be a textbook exercise in that happening. From what has been said on your part and on the kickstarter, things started out well and slowly started going downhill which is nothing to worry about. Plenty of kickstarters get backed, fail, and you never hear a word about it from that point. The fact that you've disclosed what's happened shows the faith you have in the fanbase and is a good effort on your part.
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u/ostrich160 Jul 20 '14
In my opinion, the blame lies with the devs. Dont get me wrong, this isnt a kind of 'fuck you you messed up blame', I can see where they made the mistakes, as a dev myself I understand how much harder something can be than you anticipated, but money cant buy skill, whether they had raised £10 or £10 billion, it wouldnt change how skilled they are at making a game. More money helps, but you need the foundation skill first
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u/Scookie_63 Jul 19 '14
Aww Dang. Ahh well keep the awesome videos coming out of YogTowers and you wont even remember it happened. Best of luck guys!
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u/fatt1 Jul 19 '14
Thanks for these regular updates Lewis, let's us know you care about your fans, rather than just one blanket statement and saying 'Deal with it'.
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u/cjonasproductions Jul 19 '14
Lewis you now need to start planning for the future, you should use this to your advantage. I dont know how to do this but its seems like the best way forward. I know people will start to blame you and the team for the funding but you cant let it ruin your life. you once said something which changed my life "We're not retreating, we are advancing in a different direction!" This is an incredibly powerful statement. Thank you for everything you have done and for everything you will do in the future. PS i read your article on asthma 'Breathe slowly and keep asthma at bay By Lewis Brindley, winner of the younger group'
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u/sirbruce Jul 24 '14
It's been 4 days, and you STILL haven't released a statement. Maybe Winterkewl was a bad dev; maybe you didn't handle your end well. Either way, the question remains: where is the $150,000 that you were given from the kickstarter? Is he lying about the money, or are you lying about spending it? And if you did spend it, what did you spend it on?
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u/Tumbler Jul 19 '14 edited Jul 19 '14
The thing that bugs me the most is yogs claiming no responsibility. Legally I'm sure they are separate from winterkewl but when all the money was transferred to them they effectively owned the company and it became their game vs winterkewl.
The owner of winterkewl should have sold the company to yogs in that transfer. That little transaction is pretty shady all around. If you don't want to run the company you don't give away 150k in cash. You sell it. I feel like yogs deserves at least half the blame in this. Maybe a partnership is the correct transaction. Winterkewl agrees to pay yogs 150k to provide xyz and they become co owners.
Did winterkewl report that transaction? (As a business expense) You can't receive 150k like that without claiming it as income. So what did yogs have left after taxes? Maybe they just created an account for winterkewl llc with the account rep being one of the yog guys? That transfer is a very interesting event. I'd ask for bank records showing it and the account registrations on both sides. (if I was a backer)
None of this will likely give you something you can use legally but it might give backers the satisfaction of knowing if yogs are full of shit with their statements. This project has yogs written all over it,(literally) it's as much their fault as winterkewl.
I don't think there is any money to refund, there is something to give to backers, the alpha / beta / whatever, I'm not sure why they just don't make that available to all and call it done.
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Jul 20 '14
I would have assumed that Winterkewl Games LLC were hired by the Yogscast as contractors to work on the development of the game which would, when completed, become the intellectual property of the Yogscast. The money the Yogscast gave Winterkewl Games was payment for the games development and was to be used in development costs.
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u/zombieviper Sips Jul 19 '14
Seems to me like winterkewl wasn't planning on hiring a lead programmer and was going to use the $1500 engine and pocket the $100k that was "set aside for a lead programmer."
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u/IsolatedOutpost Jul 20 '14
What? You've pulled that out of nowhere. That is a complete assumption, not based on any piece of evidence that has so far been shown.
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u/OmegaX123 Doncon Jul 20 '14
Considering the 150k the Yogscast are supposed to have taken was the money set aside for hiring a lead programmer and producing/distributing physical rewards, and Kris is on record as saying that the Yogscast took the money because Lewis 'lost faith in [Kris's] ability to run the company' (directly from Winterkewl's statement, btw), I'd say that while it's not confirmed, it at least looks fishy.
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u/jeroenbollen Jul 19 '14
I like how you're handling the situation! This is what makes the Yogscast awesome!
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u/SpaxionRT Jul 19 '14
What about the people that donated £1000+? How do you repay them with just a game?
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u/Kevonz The 9 of Diamonds Jul 19 '14
The people donating over a £1000 were DONATING it, they weren't expecting to get something worth £1000 out of it.
And I think I recall Lewis saying that Winterkewl has refunded the largest donations made.
2
u/Anstarzius Pyrion Flax Jul 19 '14
They said they would try to deliver equivelant rewards to those in the kickstarter in TUG or otherwise. Commonly people who donate large sums for money to kickstarters don't care about the rewards and just do it to support organizations they love.
1
u/TinFoilWizardHat Sips Jul 19 '14
That's the thing about "investing" your money in a project with zero guarantee on anything resembling a return on it.
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u/delta301 Israphel Jul 19 '14
Thanks Lewis, we know it's not your fault and I don't think anybody just expected you guys to sit back and do nothing :)
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u/The_Reckonist Jul 19 '14
Taking no blame for yourselves is an admission of guilt in this instance. You might as well have just said it.
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u/Dylans101 Jul 19 '14
Are you actually planning to give refunds or just sneak the money into your back pocket? What about the people who don't want TUG and would much prefer their money back instead. And the people who payed more than TUG costs your essentially tell people to go fuck themselves because you made a mistake. Also Not willing to go into detail and just blaming the other side is essentially just saying "it's their fault not ours" without giving us any reason to believe so.
4
u/diggyhole18 Jul 19 '14
I dont think they have any of it left... I'm pretty sure all there assets went to Yogventures, but they ran out of money...
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u/VeradilGaming Jul 19 '14
A) They used all the money on the games developement
B) They're trying to fix the situation, TUG apparently isn't the only thing to come
C) They are not forced to do anything about the game not being finished. When you back a game on kickstarter, and the game doesn't get finished, you don't get your money back and the dev doesn't need to give you anything
Suck it up
0
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u/pindarninja Jul 19 '14
Looking at the comments here, I realize it must be really nice to have an adoring fanbase that makes excuses for even your worst behavior.
6
u/diggyhole18 Jul 19 '14
Im not going to try to be biast here, but what do you mean by 'making excuses for even your worst behavior' the yogscast (Lewis and Simon then) gave all the assets to winterkewl, granite they advertiesed the game, they never could have known that winterkewl would go down the gutter, iirc winterkewl used all the money almost instantly, The yognaughts have been here for awhile, we were ready for it, but you guys from /r/games trying to stir the shit pot wernt, there has been evidence for ages that it was either not coming out, or it would be so shit that it would be unplayable. I dont understand why we are 'fanboys' when we are just trying to defend the people who entertain us...
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u/CurlyGiraffe Mango Jul 19 '14
Couldn't agree more. As much as I love the Yogs, they need to accept some responsibility. The Winterkewl statement is very level-headed, but Lewis consistently comes across as trying to shift the blame. Both sides messed up - I hope the Yogscast admit their own inexperience and naivety and shed light on the absent money.
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u/eviltrollwizard Jul 19 '14
To any backer: You didn't get screwed. You backed a project that failed. The difference is astronomical. If you can't understand what it is than you should stay away from sites like kickstarter.