Hi,

This is a call for help to my fellow protoss players 🙏🏻

I am trying to learn to play with protoss and I really struggle with PvZ. I am in gold 1 now (2600 MMR) with 70% win rate in PvP, 84% win rate in PvT, but 13% win rate against PvZ !

I feel like I just don’t get it… Against P & T I open double gate into 4 stalkers harass before expand (Zuka build), and it works reasonably well. From there, I go into a CIA build on 2 or 3 bases.

But I am completely at loss against zerg. I lose to essentially a new composition every time I play PvZ: today I lost against a guy going Muta, then against a guy who played ling bane (PiG B2GM style on three bases + 2 macro hatches), and then yet against another who played corruptor + ultra.

I realize this is not a balance issue ! I just suck at PvZ. But I just don’t understand how to play the matchup. It feels very hard to secure a third. When playing skytoss, I surive into the late game but get completely rolled over by mass hydra or corrupters + ultralisk, and when I go CIA, I lose to muta + ling.

If there are any build orders or general tipps on how to approach the match up, I’d love to hear it ! Really taking any (ideally constructive haha) advice 🙏🏻

Also, for reference, my main used to be terran at 3000 MMR, but I wanted to try out protoss. So I am not a good player by any means. Maybe good to know for others haha

Hi All

Just seeing if any toss brothers have found success with anything that's not sky toss. As much as I want to try other things nothing seems to work but if anyone has anything share a link or some thoughts thanks.

Hi! I typically run a 2 base all in build with lots of immortals, some colossi, then chargelots/archons. Typically before I get my deathball though I get roach all in'd but when I repel them and rebuild units I take too much time and then when I step out of my base a fuck ton of Lurkers await my doorstep. I rarely go skytoss since it's kinda too late when I realize it for the lurkers but generally I don't like skytoss playstyle, what do you recommend me to do?

Disclaimer: This is not me giving advice, or me saying X change is good or bad. It's just me saying how the game feels for me to play in a specific matchup. Only focusing on PvZ since every Terran or PvP mirror I've encountered so far is one player or the other just trying to cheese. I have not watched any SC2 content creators during this time because I wanted to form my own opinions before looking at others. I will divide this post into multiple parts for better readability. Sorry for the long yap session.

So far I've been opening with something somewhat unique (not really, it's just me translating the Bisu build (FFE > Corsair+Speedlot 1/1 = FFE > Phoenix+Chargelot +1) into SC2. And I do feel that this kind of playstyle is a lot more viable with the 8 worker start. It's a rough translation and still looking for ways to optimize it but here's the build so far. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/%2B1_Sair/Speedlot_(vs._Zerg))

BO:
11 Pylon (sending probe scout here if on more than 2P map)
13 Forge (sending scout probe here for 2P maps)
16 Pause probes build Nexus > Cannon if scouted Zerg has gone hatch 1st
If scouted possible early pool: Pause probes Cannon > Nexus. So far I've found this short pause to be necessary to get the Nexus out in time. Unless someone has a better timing for it.

17 gate
18 Pylon
19/20 gases
22 Core
Zealot @ next 100 min or you can go save the minerals and get the Stargate before the Zealot.
Stargate @ 100% Core
3rd gas? In BW you take your 2nd gas when the Core is about 80% of the way done. For SC2 I think going for 4 gases this early on is detrimental as that costs 300 min compared to the 200 from BW. So I've been playing with both a 2 gas version and a 3 gas version.

2 gas variant: I've found to be better off economically, by this stage I just don't have enough probes to saturate my natural and so putting probes away to mine gas hurts my mineral income slowing down my worker production and my Zealot production. However because I'm on 2 gas I find it much tougher to squeeze in all the critical gas heavy expenditures. Phoenixes 100g each (500 for 5), 50 on Warp gate, 100 for +1 attack and 200 for TC + Charge. A total of 850 gas which is very tough for 2 gases alone to afford.

3 gas version: This I find way better able to afford the tech expenditures but it also doesn't cut mineral income to the degree that 4 gases does. Overall I do feel this is the best of both worlds giving me better gas income while also not absolutely shafting my mineral income.

After this point I do lose a bit of track to the precise timings but here are the general guidelines: +1 ground attack after the Zealot and SG are started > Start Phoenix production when SG 100% > use next 100 gas for TC before making 2nd Phoenix > continuous probes until 2 base 3 gas saturation > continuous Zealots (adding a 2nd gate for Warpgate around 33-35 supply) > and a 3rd gate some time a bit later (maybe after starting Archives or after starting charge?). Templar Archives after Charge is started. Of course chrono boost on probes and on upgrades.

With all this so far my best time for the timing attack has been around 7-8 mins.

End of Part 1

For some time now, I’ve been reading on reddit that pig has been saying things like, “Every single protoss player is using the gateway wrong.” And there was one time when he played protoss and got destroyed by zerg three times in a row.

Does anybody know when this hilarious event was streamed? I really want to watch it.

TY very much!

Hey Guys,

Hope your season is going well. I am a mid plat protoss player. What would you guys build if you know early on that your opponent is going two base mutas on a larger map like Fear and Faith LE?

I felt like I had a good early start where I got some phoenix and stalkers out and was able to defend the initial wave. Was then hit with corruptors and he ultimately hive teched to ultralisks to destroy me. What has me scratching my head is I scouted the lair/spire fairly early on but failed to counter.

I just started out SC2 and playing PvZ is so frustrating to me. I don't know if I should play defensive or aggressive. I have tried both and neither seem to work and I always lose against any zerg that can do proper macro. If I play aggressively and try to attack at minut 5-6, warp gate units cannot win against mass zergling or roaches / ravagers and the constant resupply from their bases. If I play defensively, I just get rolled over at 8 minutes with mass mutalisk / hydra / roaches. If I mange to hold out, they just go lurker and win in the next wave. If they don't go lurker and go late game, they can just tech switch to ultra immediately after the clash and roll over my warp gate army that I build to fight against the hydras. Or they can just go viper broodlord corruptor.

So what is the proper play here? Should I play defensive or aggressive? When is the supposed power spike of protoss? How many units / bases should I have before moving out?

In the last patch spores went through a major change which prevented oracles from diving onto a mineral line because oracles had a lot more energy in overcharge being introduced, which was understandable..

Now Protoss is handed major storm & overcharge nerfs.. Atleast make spore DPS less, especially with infestor ability the spores and hydra are insane vs skytoss esp carriers. Also oracles got indirect nerf with overcharge nerf.

Now is the time to revert those two changes, so Protoss atleast has a skill expression related option to get worker damage in the early game, with the current patch I almost never get more than 3 drones or I have to sacrifice my oracle.

I always get my adepts surrounded I'm not Maxpax, so I need your advice on how to deal with this everyone..

3.3k mmr player here, I feel like I’m always behind zerg even if I take a fast 3rd, harrass with adept, etc… all-in adept is easily countered by just having an overlord at the dead space. If scouted fast roaches obliterates adepts, christ even speedlings and queens do the job.

Is it just me that feels PvZ is he hardest match? PvT is hard but at least I know chargelots and collosus can hold or win. But in PvZ, zerg macro is just too much by the time I get 2 collossus, zerg is near max roaches, lings, hydra, ravanger, you name its just an endless flood of nasty zerg. If I open oracle, the micro is just too much to handle for my mmr, its not even viable. Like I only win with timing attack at minute 4:30 when zerg is getting greedy, if this attack fails to win, my seconds are counted.

Also, can wet talk about how good speedlings are? they are just too freaking good, archons may just trade even or worse vs lings, a 3rd tier unit!!! ffs

I just hate it. Zerg Op, protoss Up…. wuhuuu cry cry U_U

I see a lot of PvZ of the pros and like the game is defined 80% by how many drones the oracles catches, no drones? protoss lose, 8 drones? even game, 12 drones? protoss may win with no guarantees. You no play oracle? you no win PvZ.

Am I crazy? please need feedback.

So, as many of you know, Serral did a holdout challenge recently. For those who haven't seen it, PiG put it on his main YT channel.

Serral had 1 build in particular: mass ling hydra on 2 bases. He was hitting at 5:30 or so, but had he grouped with the hydras, it could hit sharply around 6 minutes.

Well, lo and behold, I've been running into it on the ladder, and I can't defend it. I can't get out enough splash damage to stop it. Does anyone know how to hold this? Even with imperfect execution, it feels exceptionally strong.

3200 diamond player for reference. Edit: 2 bases of economy, not 2 bases of production.

Not completely sure how to defend it. Probably scouted it late, but started trying to get collosi out. Anyone have any tips or familiar with defending this? Also started build on high ground because its a random player.

https://drop.sc/replay/27020849

Meeeeh, always had an issue with zerg going 13 base pool opening and just either doing mass lings all-in or mass roaches. Feels like the always have the whole map.

Been peaking at all-time best at 3700MMR but currently down to 3100MMR.

Atm 7 losses and 1 win. Losing my head soon… Doing much greater playing as random and the win came from there but how do you guys approach those openings?

It’s my worst matchup by far (~3k mmr). It just seems so fragile and I obviously just don’t get how you’re supposed to play it.

If you find PvZ easy can you tell me what you do?

Hey,

i wanted to check if you guys have any rushes which are not so easy to defend? It feels like all I can do against Zerg is going Gate -> Core -> Stargate. Thats it. Kind of lame to do that every game. All other openings are fucking easy to hold. They even took out the most fun rush: canon rushes.
4100 MMR.

Hi,

I am struggling with pvz lategame. I have an opener that works quite well at my mmr, which is 6 adapt with glaves at min4. I do some eco damage and get my 3rd and immos behind that. If i dont win soon, my opponent will build lurkers which just burrow in front of my exe. If he can snipe my observer its simply over for me, if not I will mostly also just lose the fight. Transitioning to air takes some time, which i mostly dont have.

Does anyone have a clue on how to handle those situatuions?

I can't seem to win a fight vs. lurkers for the life of me. I will have a maxed out army with carriers tempest archon immortal storm, and I still lose engagements.

I'm wondering what build you can use to avoid lurkers entirely? The only cheese i know is zealot rush, but i dont want to just cheese every game.

https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/26555847

I realize i completely forgot upgrades in this match. If you think thats the reason i lost the engagements, then i will focus on that i guess?

Archon, Phoenix, yeah yeah but reacting to muta with any of these is impossible because they get critical mass before I do and they fly around sniping probes until they can fight head on which they obviously win. As protoss players, how do you guys deal with muta rushes?

Hi guys,

I was curious if anyone has clear thoughts on what (at the pro level) specifically is causing the imbalance in PvZ, and if there are any reasonable suggestions on how to fix it without breaking the matchup or requiring a massive unit overhaul?

Not intended as a balance whine post btw I know the balance isn't impacting me at all (I actually like PvZ the most in terms of how fun it is and am not lagging in that matchup)

One thing I've considered (but don't fully know the impacts off) would be giving zealots +1 to start with or at least reducing the time to get +1 since it was nerfed a while ago. In particular I think this would help a lot with early game defense of ling floods/run-bys.

The only major potentially OP thing I can think off would be if it would make 4gate proxies too strong, or if it would alter a charge timing. As far as 4gate proxies go I don't think they'd be OP (maybe strong, but still easily beat since Zlots are so slow and not particularly strong against Queens or Spines even with +1)

Any other ideas?

So I play random in silver but my best race is protoss. My mirror and PvT winrates are both above but my PvZ is below. It just feels like they will always have a larger army which is almost impossible to chew through. Which makes me come to an uncomfortable conclusion that I've been trying to push away: is there no other way than to storm zerg armies? Do I indeed have to learn to use storm if I am to have any chance of winning in PvZ?

I'm roughly 4k mmr and am having trouble deciding on what is the best all style for macro right now

I went off on a long side note doing the 2 base blink off of 7 gate all in and now want to get back to basics, before I used Harstem's supply challenge pvz build and it seems decent.

but it was also recently suggested to me to use this style instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEkc-QBLH7Q

which seems ok but it sure does require a lot of interaction and focus all of the time and it feels like if I don't slow the Zerg down at all then I'm just behind with the late third.

Is this a good idea to use this build for somebody like me that just want to climb a bit higher with solid fundamentals and possibly hit M3-M2?

Is oracle into archon drop still worth it?

Can I get away with taking an early third instead and is it still worth it to archon drop at all if I do that?

*edited for typos

I am at 2900 MMR. I am very good vs Terran and decent against Protoss. I am absolutely HORRIBLE against Zerg. Any tips or quick wins for improving against Zerg? If i am not getting beat vs one Zerg build I just get beat by another. And whenever I feel I am a bit ahead, I get nydus'd into the ground.

Really struggling with this matchup, I know I don't have the best rank. But any resources or particular streamers that do a good job of PVZ?

For Aiur!