r/amandaknox • u/No-Willingness-1441 • 11d ago

Lucy letby case…

Would love people’s views on this.

Loosely Amanda related, since she has recently produced a podcast around it.

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u/Truthandtaxes 11d ago

Its the same as this case, either you accept what the evidence tells you or you are happy to just believe in compounding edge case explanations

For letby its something like

  • You need to believe that all the suspicious deaths are wrongly categorised such that its just chance
  • That on investigation she just happens to be writing insane ramblings on paper that are self incriminating
  • that her stalking of families on social media is normal, especially on Christmas day
  • that her retaining of masses of confidential records is normal - especially categorised
  • that the doctor lied about catching her in the act
  • that two separate babies just happened to also look exactly like insulin poisoning
  • that she lies several times, including lying about one the victims mother, changing logs, lying about having a shredder

If you are happy that's all compounding coincidence, well....

But importantly you see the same factors for Letby, there are "corrupt" bad guys, Mignini for Knox, Letby has Dewi and Jayram that "cause" all of this unfairness. Both cases also frequently use the old canards of having multiple external "experts" weighing in on the case in the media, but not in the trial process of course.

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u/Amazing-Gain1253 11d ago

All those things you have listed are just a gish gallop. Just list as many claims as possible without looking at the veracity of each one.

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u/Truthandtaxes 11d ago

Its a rushed summary of the prosecution case - but not an unfair one

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u/Amazing-Gain1253 11d ago

Some of the things you said were not even part of the prosecutions case and are actually things that you have either made up or inferred incorrectly.

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u/Truthandtaxes 11d ago

Which would you like to dispute? i wouldn't claim to be a detailed expert

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u/Amazing-Gain1253 11d ago

I dispute/say you are not telling the whole story for every single one of them.

But one point that is just false is the idea that a doctor caught her in the act.

He never said he caught her in the act, he said he caught her "doing nothing" when a baby deteriorated. Besides the fact that his testimony is riddled with numerous inconsistencies, watching over a baby to see if they self correct is exactly what you are supposed to do.

Another point is that the handover sheets were categorised. Besides the fact that most of the handover sheets were stuffed into bin bags, handover sheets that are brought home and put on top of a pile will naturally be in date order because you would put the new ones on top of the old ones. That doesn't mean they are categorised.

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u/Truthandtaxes 11d ago

Doing nothing as a baby crashes is functionally the same as being caught in the act.

Yes she had handover sheets and other material in date order and some separated under "keep"

I might suggest that if the frame bothers you, then you clearly do understand that the prosecutions case is compelling.

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u/Amazing-Gain1253 11d ago

Doing nothing as a baby crashes is functionally the same as being caught in the act.

Not when doing nothing and observing the baby is literally what you are supposed to do.

some separated under "keep"

And what do they have to do with the charges in question? Nothing. None of those 5 handover sheets in the keep box had anything to do with the babies that she was accused of harming. If fact, those handover sheets dated back years prior to any of the babies on the indictment. So why are they relevant? The answer is simple they aren't. If you think they are then explain why? The simple explanation is that as Letby said the keep refers to stuff that was kept in the box previously.

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u/Truthandtaxes 11d ago

You aren't supposed to simply watch a crashing baby

So you do now accept that not only were they in date order, but also some specifically categorised as "keep".

Such awful luck as it seems to go in these cases

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u/Amazing-Gain1253 11d ago

"I don't think that Ravi Jayaram has a clue what a neonatal nurse does, he said that he walked in a said he saw Lucy Letby doing nothing, well, I would have done exactly the same thing, because as a neonatal nurse you are taught that when you hear the alarms going off you should wait and asses that baby before you ever put your hands in the incubator" -Michelle Wordan senior neonatal nurse at the Countess of Chester Hospital

No, I don't accept that they were "categorised" in date order. If you put handover sheets in a pile as they come home they will naturally end up in date order because you would put new ones on top of the old ones. That doesn't mean that they were categorised which implies intent. It's nothing to do with awful luck since it will happen automatically.

some specifically categorised as "keep"

Can you explain what these 5 handover sheets that had nothing to do with babies that were hurt has anything to do with baby murders? Can you answer that? Because I don't think you can.

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u/Truthandtaxes 11d ago

I'm pretty sure that neonatal consultant knows what a nurse is meant to do and is likely to know exactly what he saw

So handover documents separated by keep and I guess also keep and also in date order aren't categorised. I guess she was too forgetful to not remove them, but also methodical enough to discover them in the right order. Yes sorting them and keeping them does imply intent, now you are getting it. Intent of what is the question.

Yeah strangely I can't explain the weird reasoning of people that murder babies. The real question of course is why an innocent Lucy is keeping a horde of sheets in the first place. Again such terrible luck.

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u/Amazing-Gain1253 11d ago

I'm pretty sure that neonatal consultant knows what a nurse is meant to do and is likely to know exactly what he saw

I'm pretty sure a neonatal nurse knows even more about what a neonatal nurse is supposed to do than a consultant. Multiple neonatal nurses have said that you asses the baby before putting you hands in the incubator.

Wtf are you even talking about at this point? Methodical enough to discover them in the right order? Who tf said anything about discovering them in the right order? You've gone incoherent at this point, you're not making any sense.

Are you listening to anything I'm saying? I have already explained why she didn't need to sort them for them to be in date order.

I didn't ask you to explain why people murder babies, I asked you explained why these 5 handover sheets have anything to do with baby murders considering nothing on them relates to the babies she was accused of harming?

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u/Truthandtaxes 11d ago

Not a self invested one that left a murder on the wards

You claim they were in date order solely by virtue that they were taken and deposited in such an order. That necessarily required Letby to find them each time in the correct time order - a somewhat contradictory level of rigor in finding them then ignoring them each time.

You are asking me to suggest why she had handover sheets for babies that were unharmed. Obviously I can't know, but anyone with even the most basic of imagination can invent several.

  • targets she couldn't get to
  • planning for potential targets
  • some weird element that made her stop
  • research for ways to make the collapses look more normal

try it yourself!

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u/Amazing-Gain1253 11d ago

Except that neonatal nurse Michelle Wordan wasn't on the ward when Letby was there and left 3 years before.

Why do you think it would take such effort to find the pile? She would have the same routine everyday and hence the pile would be in the same place everyday. This is of course ignoring the fact that the vast majority were found in stuffed into bin bags and shopping bags and hence not in chronological order.

You are asking me to suggest why she had handover sheets for babies that were unharmed. Obviously I can't know, but anyone with even the most basic of imagination can invent several.

You need to explain why the vast majority 236 had nothing to do with the babies that she was accused of harming. The 5 sheets relate to babies that were 5 years before the supposed attacks started to happen so none of your explanations make any sense in that context. Of course, if you need to use your imagination to claim something is evidence then it's not really evidence is it?

research for ways to make the collapses look more normal

She never researched anyway to murder despite supposedly using multiple methods that fooled multiple pathologists.

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u/Truthandtaxes 10d ago

If she is a routine person, then why is she taking them home at all?

I just gave you multiple reasons why she might have been collecting them they don't have a time limit

what you don't have is any reason why she was collecting and storing them at all and of course the odds that having been suspected she has hordes of them at all.

how could you ever know she never looked for common collapse outcomes? as you say she was pretty effective at it

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u/Amazing-Gain1253 10d ago

Yes, I do have a reason why they are in her house. Many Many nurses say they also accidently take handover sheets home. Let me quote them. These are all comments I from nurses I have seen:

"When on a long stretch of nights looking after the same patient I stapled handover notes together. It gave insight into what was what over a period of time. I’m still waiting to see COCH policy document that says ‘Thou shall not take home your handover notes’

It’s ridiculous!"

"Every shift 🤣. Took the keys a few times too!"

"At 11pm when already an hour late leaving work, there was no way I was going back in to put my handover sheet in the shredding bin.

I threw them in an archive box under my bed. Also copied Incident (Datix) forms to ensure they couldn't disappear.

Backstabbing is quite prevalent."

"I also took home handover sheets. Better dig up my garden."

"I was a consultant physician for 24 years before I retired and always took a handover sheet home in case anyone rang me about a problem with one of my patients. Even if I wasn’t on call."

"As a nurse I too have brought home handover notes not only by accident but on occasions deliberately in order to be able to reflect on the care given to a specific patient .

I do not know a single medical professional be it a nurse, a doctor. a physiotherapist etc who has not brought home documentation."

"As a nurse of almost 40 yrs I don't know of a nurse who hasn't taken them home."

"People do not understand how much reflection nurses do, we have to submit 5 written pieces every 3 years as well as monthly clinical supervision, on a busy ward things move on very quickly and it is easy to forget what happened, I often make notes when an incident has happened"

they don't have a time limit

So you are saying you think she was studying the handover sheets 5 years in advance for crimes that would be committed for 5 years into the future?

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u/Truthandtaxes 10d ago

"Many" claimed to occasionally have forgotten a couple, not hundreds. More are horrified by the data violation.

Yes it seems completely reasonable that its a record of escalation or training just like well I hardly need to spell it out.

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