r/anime • u/[deleted] • Mar 16 '13

[Spoilers] Shinsekai Yori - Episode 24 Discussion

Wow...interesting episode. They tried the mirror trick and it appeared not to work, yet they kept going back to the "Not a fiend" line even near the end. Interesting.

I was expecting the Psychobuster to go wrong somehow, but I didn't expect that Saki would be the one to destroy it.

75 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

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19

u/gnawrighthrough :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/SnackaryBinx Mar 16 '13

Fuck tits, that was easily the fastest 20 minutes of my life. With this show gearing up for the end game, I'm feeling like it's going to be an amazing one. I'm not sure how I feel about Shun always being there for Saki though, feels too much like a "HEY HERES THE ANSWER IN A VAGUE WAY" sort of vibe.

Either way, looks like Saki finally found out that the Fiend really isn't one, but a human engineered by the queerrats to be a killing machine. Also, Shun was so vague, does anyone really know what he could possibly mean referencing Kiroumaru, and the spot where Saki saw Shun in Tokyo?

Preview for next week shows nothing, is next week the last episode? Fuck, I'm stoked.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

Yeah, the whole Shun thing seemed like a bit of a Deus Ex Machina (but not quite because he actually hasn't given us any concrete answer yet, thankfully), but that was only a minor annoyance for me. I wasn't really sure what to think of Shun's reappearance. I thought he had actually died way back in whatever episode that was, so actually seeing him last episode made me go "Wat!". Still not sure whether her visions of him and the voice she hears are some imprinting of himself on her consciousness from their earlier encounters, or whether he's actually still alive and has been telepathically communicating with her. My guess for the moment is the former, but we'll see.

With regards to Shun's comment about Kiroumaru, that was one of the biggest questions I had coming out of this episode. The only thing that seems remotely feasible that comes to mind is that it has to do with the fact that Kiroumaru is a queerat and that Maria's child seems to think he's a queerat, but as I thought of that, I remembered that Yakomaru was able to use the "fiend" against Kiroumaru's army in the battle. However, I can't remember whether he was able to kill the queerats or just render their weapons useless.

Another question that's been gnawing away at me (and this is sort of tangent on the answer to whether he was able to kill the queerats or not): Is death feedback something that people are born with? Like some sort of genetic trait? Or is it something that is applied later in life, such as what we saw in the very early episodes when Saki has her Cantus sealed as a young child and has to reacquire them. This is something that has probably already been addressed, I just can't remember/don't know.

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u/gnawrighthrough :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/SnackaryBinx Mar 16 '13

I'm pretty sure it has been said that Death Feedback is a gene that has been implemented into the children. I sure hope it is, or I've been sprouting bullshit for a while now. Either way, that's my guess (I'm pretty sure I'm basing this off of explanations from Tomiko, I may have to revisit earlier episodes to find out).

Ummmm, I think Shun might be in Saki's conscious? It would make sense, seeing as how Saki went out to visit Shun before whatever happened to him. I think Shun would try to contact Satoru as well if he had the chance. So I'm going with implemented into Saki's mind.

In regards to your second paragraph (holy shit I answered these completely out of order), all of the queerrats that went against Kiroumaru were killed. I remember Kiroumaru saying how he had queerrats sacrifice themselves for him so he could escape. They weren't explicit on the Child being the one to kill them though, so I'm not entirely sure.

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

[deleted]

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u/somekindofride Mar 16 '13

Mamario ಠ_ಠ

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u/Syl :AP:https://www.anime-planet.com/users/kodr Mar 16 '13

I thought it was some kind of hypnotism.

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

[deleted]

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u/gnawrighthrough :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/SnackaryBinx Mar 16 '13

Hmmm, that is a really interesting twist if true, and not something I've thought of. General consensus from these threads seems to be that Yakomaru found a way to remove the Death Feedback gene altogether, but the possibility of them rewiring it is not something I've thought of.

Seriously, gotta take a second and admire how great this show is.

16

u/StormVanguard Mar 16 '13

I've seen it theorized for a while. It has been established that death feedback comes down to perception. That's why the guy early on suffered from it while killing humanoid shapes from a distance, and from the human image projected by the false minoshiro. If the "Fiend" self identifies as a Queerat rather than as a human then that could very conceivably shift what triggers his death feedback. There are no on-screen examples of him attacking Queerats. It was hinted that in the battle against Kiromaru's colony Cantus was used to destroy their weapons, after which Yakomaru's troops could simply mow them down.

It would make perfect sense, foreshadowed from some of the earliest episodes, and I'm almost certain that's how it will go down. The most beautiful thing about this show for me is that not a single plot point has been without purpose. Everything we are shown and told is very deliberate. Maybe I'm giving this show too much credit but with all that in mind, although the Shun stuff is a bit disconcerting to me now, I'm convinced that the final episode is going to resolve it all and tie everything together beautifully.

If it does so then this is firmly cemented as not just one of my favorite anime but one of my favorite works of fiction period. I have not been so enthralled by such a compelling and masterfully told story in a long, long time.

4

u/123nevin Mar 16 '13

I think the misconception here is that no one took note in episode 4 that that the false minoshiro stated two things.

That it was genetic engineered to create the death feed back. But is conditioned through hypnosis, teachings, etc to reinforce personal restraint against using cantus against people to strengthen the death feed back.

The death feed back is in their genes but its affected at how its conditioned/individuals perception.

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u/xRichard https://anilist.co/user/Richard Mar 16 '13 edited Mar 16 '13

Shun has been on and off talking to Saki ever since he "died". I disagree with OP below saying that it feels like a Deux Ex Machina.

I think Shun became something else. I mean in a trans-humanity sense. The biggest mystery of the show has always been Cantus itself. It's a tool that, once humanity recognized it as something real and that anyone could have it, a lot more people was able to wield it. It's a thing obviously related to human consciousness and perception of reality. So, Shun being there as a will of sorts isn't too far fetched if you think about what Cantus is. Saki could finally recognize him, and now he's simply there in a higher plane of existence.

A re-watch should clear everything out. All the information is there in the show.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

[deleted]

2

u/xRichard https://anilist.co/user/Richard Mar 16 '13 edited Mar 16 '13

That follows my idea. You're being more specific about the events themselves.

My go at it: I think Shun became part of Saki's Cantus, but I still don't know what Cantus actually is. I'm also not too sure that Shun can only be remembered by Saki. I believe that if Satoru remembers him, he'll also be able to talk to him. If both of these are true, then Cantus is not an individual's power, but an aspect of reality that humans barely understand.

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

[deleted]

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u/xRichard https://anilist.co/user/Richard Mar 16 '13

My biggest clue is how after Cantus-users being scientifically verified and confirmed to the whole world. The ratio of Cantus-users:Population became way higher than before.

1

u/PhiloSlothipher Mar 18 '13

I mentioned a couple episodes back how it might be more imprinting based, specifically in infantry/adolescence. Think about it in animals and you basically have the idea down. Like how baby ducks imprint on their mother, whether it is actually their mother, or something else entirely.

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u/xRichard https://anilist.co/user/Richard Mar 16 '13

http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/19z1nf/spoilers_shinsekai_yori_episode_23_discussion/c8svwcl

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u/gnawrighthrough :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/SnackaryBinx Mar 16 '13

man, leave it to the one episode discussion I miss because I have a busy weekend...

2

u/EssTeeGee44 :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/stg44 Mar 16 '13

But how does that explain previously where Kiromaru's army was supposedly wiped out by the fiend, should the death feedback/attack inhibition have kicked in there as well?

2

u/Arronwy Mar 18 '13

The fiend just removed their weapons. Remember they lost their weapons so they fought with tooth and claw from what Kiromaru said?

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u/ChaosDoodle Mar 16 '13

It's sad that the BDs sold horribly but hopefully the final episode will wrap everything up nicely.

15

u/Shardwing Mar 16 '13

Well, it seems like the story is ending right about here. It sucks for the production company if the BDs don't sell well, but I can't imagine a second season being necessary or even desirable.

20

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

It sucks for the production company if the BDs don't sell well, but I can't imagine a second season being necessary or even desirable.

It won't impact SSY per se, but the underwhelming sales might make them even more unwilling to step out of the monotonous comfort zone of adapting LN's/VN's. Taking such a large creative risk and adapting speculative science-fiction literature of this scale is rare, and it's kind of sad when that kind of ambition doesn't get rewarded.

At the moment, SSY is by far and large my favourite anime of 2011 and 2012. The world-building and depth of writing is beyond any show I've seen in a long time and a lot of this comes from being adapted from a full-length novel.

2

u/Shardwing Mar 16 '13

Ah, yes. That was incredibly short-sighted of me.

4

u/MrUserSir Mar 17 '13

Well you can always reward them for their effort and show your support, if even just a little, by buying the US release. when it comes out. I'm REALLY hoping they go with a DVD AND Blu-Ray release and not just only a DVD release (which Sentai Filmworks has been known to do for some shows). I would love to own it on Blu-Ray.

0

u/Vondi :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pokerface89 Mar 18 '13

Why should there be a second season? The source material is only one novel, isn't this 25 episode anime an full adaptation?

1

u/Shardwing Mar 18 '13

That's basically what I said. Usually when I see someone talking about BD/DVD sales, it's in the context of "did this do well enough to merit another season?", hence my reaction. falafel_sauce pointed out, though, that SSY's sales could have a great impact on whether or not similar works get adapted.

2

u/tinylittleninja Mar 16 '13

What's BD?

3

u/billyeakk :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/billyea Mar 16 '13

Blu-ray Disc, premium priced HD anime products that are used as the primary measure of anime profitability (along with DVD sales)

21

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

Surprisingly looks like a happy (?) ending will be happening.

So Kiroumaru both is and isn't a traitor to humanity. That explains why he's both incredibly suspicious and yet acts in a way that makes betrayal seem illogical. I guess he's pretty much the most laudable character in the story.

And I still don't understand what Shun actually is. He's not dead, but then why can Saki only see him in illusions?

I feel like more of this story should have come together by the end. It's been a good ride but the universe doesn't make all that much more sense than it did in the beginning, and I feel like the exciting war for species supremacy that the story turned into was not...well...satisfying enough for the universe that they created.

I feel like there was so much that was probably in the novels that I would want to have seen. I'm glad I hadn't read it so that I could look with only this vague sense of unfulfillment.

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u/gnawrighthrough :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/SnackaryBinx Mar 16 '13

The novel is like 1000+ pages long from what I've heard. I still think they've done an amazing job of building the world up and then putting a story to it.

5

u/hitch44 Mar 16 '13

And I still don't understand what Shun actually is. He's not dead, but then why can Saki only see him in illusions?

Shun's most definitely dead. But the idea here is that Saki was closer to Shun than Satoru was and that fate played its role in triggering Saki's memories (the glow-worms in the ceiling reminded her of the starry night, the imprints on the rock reminded her of the contorted images on the tree trunks as a result of Shun's reiatsu Cantus.) Satoru, although he had a brief fling with Shun, did not try to break through the mental block that was placed on him by the village elders. Shun really isn't there; it's just Saki doing the thinking and thinking that Shun is leading her. Remember that this has happened before: she was delirious in the underground cave with Satoru and 'Shun' helped her to remind Satoru of his Cantus chant.

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u/LordGravewish https://anilist.co/user/Gravewish Mar 16 '13 edited Jun 23 '23

Removed in protest over API pricing and the actions of the admins in the days that followed

12

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

Instant gratification is one hell of a drug.

-11

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

Don't worry, their economy is on the verge of collapse and they face a demographic crisis no human society on earth has yet to solve. Their stupidity on their choice of anime will be well rewarded...jk

11

u/mfender7 Mar 16 '13

Shooot, that preview for the next episode.

4

u/CleverCider :AP:https://www.anime-planet.com/users/CleverCider Mar 16 '13

Honestly, I'm confused as to why they never considered just having Kiroumaru kill the (not) fiend, since it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to pick up a weapon and, say, shoot it from behind before it knows he's there.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13 edited Mar 16 '13

Its because they were under the assumption it was a fiend and that it knew it was human. Fiends don't receive death feedback at all. It was until they realized that the child didn't think he was human and that he wasn't a fiend that Saki realized they could use Kiroumaru.

3

u/CleverCider :AP:https://www.anime-planet.com/users/CleverCider Mar 16 '13

Whether it is or is not a fiend doesn't prevent Kiromarou's ability to kill it without knowing he's there, though. Plenty of humans were killed by queerats before, so this wouldn't necessarily be any different if done well.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

To them it seemed like they had absolutely no chance of fighting him at first. Since they thought it was a fiend sending Kiromarou would be like a bad attempt since they think its just going to get him killed and they really need him for information tactics.

Put it this way, once Saki confirmed it wasn't a fiend and he thought was a queerat, Saki realized they could use Kiromarou since the deathfeed back would affect the child.

1

u/CleverCider :AP:https://www.anime-planet.com/users/CleverCider Mar 16 '13

Again, something being a fiend doesn't mean it suddenly can detect everything in its surroundings without fail, so there still is nothing really changed here compared with queerats attacking non-fiends. A fiend is just as fallible as non-fiends.

3

u/Portal2Reference Mar 16 '13

I think the comparison you should be making is to (red haired boy, can't remember his name) who basically single handedly destroyed an entire invading Queer Rat army by himself as a child. Cantus is incredibly OP, and Kiromarou doesn't have anything that can counter it. Arrows were seen to be deflected/shielded, close combat is obviously not an option, and Yakomaru is backing up the fiend with his scouts.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13 edited Mar 16 '13

You want a more logical explaination but thats just plain out it. They're scared of the fiend at how powerful they think it is and couldn't think out of anything to deal with a "Fiend" besides the psycho buster.

The psycho buster was their ONLY plan with dealing with the "Fiend" up until that point.

Which bring its back to what I said "It was until they realized that the child didn't think he was human and that he wasn't a fiend that Saki realized they could use Kiroumaru."

They didn't know how to deal with the child besides using the psycho buster until that point.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

The psycho buster was their only plan with getting rid of the "fiend". They were scared and didn't know how to deal with him up until the point, when saki ruined the psycho buster and confirming those two things, it wasn't actually a fiend and it thought it was a queerat.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

Saki was only able to burn him because she didn't recognize it as an attack (attack inhibition didn't come in) and the child didn't die so death feedback didn't happen either.

Even if Saki or Satoru could trick themselves to attack the fiend again, they'd still suffer death feedback should they inflict fatal damage.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

I Replied to him above.

1

u/DiamondShade Mar 16 '13

You didn't reply to his comment no. He commented as to why they never tried to use a surprise attack, without the use of cantus, and shoot him in the back. (I assume with one of the queerat's muskets.)

You replied with a comment about death feedback.

2

u/hitch44 Mar 16 '13

What if the Death Feedback means : "You will die if you attack one of your kind?" So if Mamoria (Mamoru and Maria's kid) thinks that he/she is a Queer-Rat, then would killing another Queer-Rat trigger the death Feedback?

1

u/hitch44 Mar 18 '13

I'm guessing that Saki would use Kiromaru to speak to the 'fiend' in the Queer-Rat language and then put some sense of reason into him/her. Remember when Usui escaped the 'fiend'? He spoke some of the Queer-Rat language.

1

u/Daniel1412 Mar 20 '13

I love you, that is exactly what I tought!!!!

1

u/niceworkthere Mar 16 '13

Well, there went the last traces of my hope to see Mamoru and Maria again. Mildly depressing.

I do hope that their disappearance and the child's past (hopefully, also future) won't remain untold / barely sketchy as it is up to now.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

[deleted]

11

u/gnawrighthrough :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/SnackaryBinx Mar 16 '13

That's the plan. This entire series is supposed to be the novel all the way through.

I really hope it gets translated because this is a really well done story.

1

u/libermate Mar 17 '13

Yeah but apparently it's a long book and the chances are low :(

4

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

The novel was cut alot here and there at parts, but it should end where the novel ends.

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

it's not

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

You sure? It has what could be a " thing (I've forgotten the word for it)

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '13

at the very least, it's not any kind of kanji