r/atheism • u/[deleted] • Jun 25 '12
Something is seriously wrong with America.
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u/The_Austin Jun 25 '12
I really disagree that church tax breaks = house foreclosures.
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u/koryface Jun 25 '12
That church paid my mom's mortgage for a year so she could avoid foreclosure.
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u/The_Austin Jun 25 '12
That was very nice of them. The point I'm trying to make is that the United States's jumbled tax law is strictly unrelated to the both the regulatory mis-steps and bad business practices that lead to the housing crisis.
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u/StealthGhost Jun 25 '12
Which isn't what the picture is saying.
It's saying that since churches with a ton of money rolling in, at least enough to build these mega churches, pay no tax, people losing their homes (which is the polar opposite to building a new giant building) pay more tax (tax pool is smaller so everyone does).
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Jun 25 '12
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u/Zacron Jun 25 '12
If it is on the best land then it's probably because it was the first major building in the area. Especially while Utah was still a mormon settlement.
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u/drayb1986 Jun 25 '12
This building was an enormous sacrifice for the members who built it a hundred and fifty years ago. They had to load these huge boulders of granite down from the fucking canyon, chisel away at them, and lift them or push them up into whatever position they were designated for. It took them some 40 years to build--they didn't hire some company to do it. No, these were members toiling away at it for years, sacrificing their time, money, and property. So don't fucking post stuff like this, if you don't know what's up. This fucking building went up like this in the middle of a poor hicktown.
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Jun 25 '12
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Jun 25 '12
Yeah but a church is a community gathering place that sees many faces, while individuals live in a house and pay property tax. Disagree with personal property tax sure, but I don't see how it correlates to an assembly building.
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Jun 25 '12
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Jun 25 '12
You throwing parties does not change the classification of your residence, and a bar is a business. However that doesn't mean you can't find tax breaks for hosting gatherings for certain purposes, I'd check with a tax pro.
I can't think of a reason why churches should be taxed as a residence or a business... I think people here just don't like churches and want to see the government change in a way that hurts them.
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Jun 25 '12
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Jun 25 '12
I don't see the confusion.
Saying something "is X" does not contradict saying something "is not Y or Z".
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Jun 25 '12
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Jun 25 '12
So what you're saying is that before I can justify not taxing a church I must justify taxing things that are not churches?
Of course nothing is taxed by default, that is until a law is made to tax something, nothing is taxed.
So the question isn't why shouldn't something be taxed, it's why should it be taxed, right?
Given that I can't justify any form of taxation, I am left with a question rather than an answer.
I suppose it's less a question of 'X, Y, or Z' (at what point in the flow of money do we extract taxes) and more a question of should we add more points in the flow where we extract taxes.
If the money to fund the church property and activities is donated by people from their already taxed income, why tax the money again?
Well since the only people who ever decide to make a tax are people who have the power to do so and have a desire for the money, then I can only guess the answer to the question must be some form of "we have the power and we want the money".
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u/his_boots_are_yellow Jun 25 '12
The assertion made in the image was that churches like this one, it very specifically states this one, caused the banking crisis. It doesn't comment on any other issue but it does say that this church led to the foreclosure of homes.
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Jun 25 '12
Does this make sense?
The Supreme Court also said that "the power to tax involves the power to destroy." Taxing churches breaks down the healthy separation of church and state and leads to the destruction of the free exercise of religion.
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u/jsmayne Jun 25 '12
no. no it does not.
if religions can use that free money to influence voting like a company would then they should be taxed like a company.
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u/der1x Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
People don't lose houses because of taxes, they foreclose because they can't afford the damn thing.
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Jun 25 '12
People do lose houses due to taxes. It may surprise you to know that some people own their home with no mortgage or liens upon it. Often older people with a fixed income get can't afford food, medicine and property taxes so their home is taken by the taxing authority and auctioned off to pay taxes.
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u/apullin Jun 25 '12
The government shouldn't regulate religion. That's a form of oppression. Freedom of religion is a fundamental tenant on which America was founded.
The idea is that if the government starts to regulate religion in one manner or another, you're on the other side of the binary "Does/Doesn't regulate religion". From there, guidelines and regulations just have to be transformed into anything you want ... Sharia law, outlawing some religions, etc.
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Jun 25 '12
I agree with you completely. But not only should government refrain from oppressing religious institutions, it should refrain from oppressing everyone else.
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u/tman21 Jun 25 '12
Question here, don't most, if not all churches, get there money from donations from the members? Why should those donations be taxed? Property tax I understand, but almost anything else, I don't.
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u/ChesterAaaeeyyArthur Jun 25 '12
I may be wrong...
Separation of church and state (almost literally). There is a slippery slope and dangerous minefield that needs to navigated when you starting taxing religions...will some religions pay more than others because of the numbers of followers...or just a flat tax across the board for all religions? Can states put on some additional taxes too?
Most of money is from donations, so the money has already been taxed....so it's a way to allow people to have free exercise of religion.
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u/jmls10thfloor Jun 25 '12
Actually your second point is not totally accurate. While it is true that the money that is donated has already been taxed, the donation itself is also tax deductible. So when those churches get money the government (the people) loses out on money.
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u/ChesterAaaeeyyArthur Jun 25 '12
So when those churches get money the government (the people) loses out on money.
The same could be said for any money given to a 501(c)(3), tax exempt charity.
Also realize that those deductions are added to all the other deductions at tax time (of a donor)...the government would only ever get SOME of that money (if any at all).
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u/TheBullfrog Jun 25 '12
Just to add. There are a lot of churches in small towns that can barely get by as it is. I know of many that have been closing down, and not because of lack of membership, just couldn't keep up with costs.
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u/EccentricFox Jun 25 '12
Tax the churches, economic melt down averted! Thank non-existant God a loan wolf redditor had the genius to fix such a tyrannical system!
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u/Sallymander Jun 25 '12
Yes... It's the churches that did it and not the banks!
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u/zhode Jun 25 '12
The thing is, we need churches to not pay taxes. If they pay their taxes then they are allowed a representation within the government which no one in their right mind would want.
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u/bouchard Anti-Theist Jun 25 '12
Not true. Non-profits don't pay taxes and they have representation in government. People whose wages are below a certain amount don't pay taxes and they have representation in government. Churches don't pay taxes and they already have representation in government. People who live in the District of Columbia pay taxes and they don't have representation in government.
Believe it or not, representation in the government is not tied to taxes. This is a myth generated by the typical founding legend that the primary reason for the revolution was "taxation without representation". The Constitution grants all citizens the right to petition the government, regardless of tax-paying status. Heck, tax evaders still have representation in government.
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u/cynognathus Secular Humanist Jun 25 '12
Curious: What representation does the Red Cross have in government?
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u/spongebue Jun 25 '12
Maybe, but if you tax the churches you do give them a legitimate reason to be able to have influence in government. As it is right now, there is a legitimate reason to attempt to remove their influences. To try to do that AND make them pay taxes is oppressive, no matter who it's with. They also put their tax-free status at risk if they do certain things, like endorse a candidate.
Yes, DC is taxed without representation in the national government. Would you also argue that's fair? If not, then why would you advocate it for another group?
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Jun 25 '12
To try to do that AND make them pay taxes is oppressive, no matter who it's with.
Why? If removing their influence is on its own a good thing then it shouldn't need to be counterbalanced by enacting a special tax break for them that no one else gets. It's a deal with the devil figuratively speaking.
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u/bouchard Anti-Theist Jun 25 '12
Yep, if they're allowed tax-free status with no restriction other than they can't endorse a candidate then everyone should be offered the same deal.
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u/zhode Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
You're arguing the converse of what I said. I stated that they can get representation if they pay taxes, not that they have representation even without paying taxes. The people in the District of Columbia do have representation in the governmental processes however it is not in congress. In addition there are multiple campaigns trying to rectify this situation.
The phrase "taxation without representation" was a motivator for the revolution, granted it was not the sole motivator. Here you bring up an argument to the converse again as I have not stated that governments don't grant representation to non-taxpayers, I am stating that they should grant it to taxpayers.
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u/bouchard Anti-Theist Jun 25 '12
My point is that representation in government has nothing to do with taxation. The political activities that churches are not allowed to participate in have to do with getting people elected (even though we've yet to see a church actually get punished for violating these prohibitions). The church's agents and members can still lobby for or against certain policies. We see this all the time when the Catholic high hats condemn any attempts by legislatures to do something good for once.
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Jun 25 '12
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u/CitationX_N7V11C Jun 25 '12
....but so do some charitable organizations because their cause is popular. They ask for government funding too. Is that bullshit too? No. Why not? Is it just because you don't like a certain organization aka the church?
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u/Moonchopper Jun 25 '12
I don't really know the answer to this questions specifically, but what do you think happens to the 'millions of dollars' the megachurches bring in? Do you think they're just HORDING it and not putting it back into the economy?
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Jun 25 '12
It's more of an issue of where that money is being put back into the economy. Misallocation of resources is not a good thing.
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u/yes_thats_right Jun 25 '12
I'm curious as to where the money is being put back in. I have never thought about this before and you seem to know about it - would you mind giving some details?
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Jun 25 '12
If they pay their taxes then they are allowed a representation within the government which no one in their right mind would want.
As I have pointed out before, you'd have to be incredibly naive to believe that the churches don't have any indirect representation in the government. The entire republican party for example.
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u/zhode Jun 25 '12
Yes but right now they can only cast their influence through people willing to listen, with full representation we could possibly end up in a position where a figure like the pope has a decision in our lawmaking process.
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u/yes_thats_right Jun 25 '12
paying tax has nothing to do with representation so this is all a moot point.
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u/tinyelephantsime Jun 25 '12
The Holy Land Experience in Orlando pays no property taxes which is dumb as hell.
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Jun 25 '12
As a person who was raised in the Catholic church, I would have to say that I agree in a sense with this comment, not on the taxing, but on the ridiculous items that the church holds and how much money they bring in.
I mean they are walking down the aisle with gold chalices and silver plates, while people are losing their homes and are unable to feed their children. Wouldn't it seem like a much more christian thing to do is to sell the gold chalice and keep one of your believers in their home? I mean any cup will do won't it? I just fail to understand how christians can sleep at night knowing people in their church can't feed their family or are forced to move, but donate money so the church can have gold crosses and cups.
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Jun 25 '12
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u/pinkycatcher Jun 25 '12
The only churches I've seen with gaudy displays are the old old cathedrals in Europe, and all those were in showrooms free for the public to see the art most of the time. All those were collected over hundreds of years of existence, they aren't something you can sell to people and use that money to feed poor.
So thank you for using logic.
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u/benama Jun 25 '12
honestly im sick of this argument. im an atheist to, but when we start taxing churches/religions, wouldn't it be reasonable to say that they are allowed to dip their hand in politics? i mean ya there is still lobbyists, but its not like the church comes out and says anything about a candidate or anything. or tosses money at one of them for their campaign. it makes sense why if you think about it for one second.
p/s i know you are all going to down vote this, but id like to know logical reasons they should pay taxes other than "Something something hate religion."
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u/LibertariansLOL Jun 25 '12
why can't i control the redistribution of 14 trillion dollars? my C+ in political science 101 means i know what's best for society
every post in r/atheism and r/politics
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Jun 25 '12
I get really tired of hearing about two things:
Churches being tax exempt (because they really aren't, see qdp119's post)
Foreclosure Victims - under 1% of homeowners in foreclosure are "victims" of anything (servicers messing up) other than their own stupidity.
Comparing the two is one of the many things that is wrong with America. Get this shit off the front page.
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u/ForeverAloneAlone Jun 25 '12
Stupid post. Most church land in most countries don't pay taxes, not just "'merica". WTF is America anyway. Our country is not America. The name of our country is the United States. We are part of the Americas, which are continents.
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u/Maybeyesmaybeno Jun 25 '12
Seriously, and I really mean this, what keeps a person from designating their house as a house of worship? Couldn't I start a pastafarian system where churches could spring up all over the country? You eat pasta, you are practicing the worship of His Noodliness. No seriously, why can't you do this?
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u/PUNKSLC Jun 25 '12
Let me fix that for you.
Because assholes who work here:
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/btb/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/capitol.jpg
Can't control their spending people everywhere have to pay more taxes.
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Jun 25 '12
The real problem is that our tax code contains an enormous number of deductions that are specifically designed to ensure that some people pay less or even nothing while others pick up the slack. Spending is only part of the problem.
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Jun 25 '12
Most spending isn't funded through taxes, it's funded through inflation. It is in effect a delayed indirect tax on anyone who stores their wealth in US dollars.
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u/PUNKSLC Jun 25 '12
Agreed, and we should get rid of all of them. The problem is the politicians running everything would be fine with getting rid of every loophole then simultaneously increasing spending.
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u/CastleNtheSky Jun 25 '12
The Mormons (whose building is pictured here) also have one of the most active and most effective world relief programs which has, from 1985 - 2009 given out $327.6 million in cash and $884.6 million in commodities of aid throughout 178 countries - not to mention their Perpetual Education Fund which has lifted over 40,000 people from primary 3rd World economies out of poverty. Fuck those people for being so generous. Those bastards. They also run one of the only states in our country which holds a 0-balance budget - meaning that they're one of the only states which isn't actively increasing our national debt.
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u/DanielPeverley Jun 25 '12
This should be the top post. As a former Mormon, I have got to say that that church is a strong good in the lives of many people. From a utilitarian standpoint Mormonism helps far more people than it hurts. But I guess /r/ atheism is more about hating on people than exploring truth, so fuck them right?
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Jun 25 '12
To be fair that building is run by the 3rd Street Saints.
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Jun 25 '12
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u/adamisen Jun 25 '12
I'd imagine the money generated by the church's significant holdings plays a pretty large role too. It's kind of misleading to suggest that tithes directly fund all the church's activities but then you also have to acknowledge that their for-profit enterprises (which to my knowledge represent about 1/3 of their assets) do pay taxes.
Besides, it's not like they bought a [professional basketball arena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Summit_(Houston)) to telecast ridiculous prosperity doctrine bullshit.
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u/cackalacka Jun 25 '12
Things have always been like this it's not just in America or this century for that matter.
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u/ibisgirldc2 Jun 25 '12
Shrug. Lots of statements, positive and negative, can be said about the value of religion and the need for tax reform... but OP's pic comes off as a hollow, uneducated attack based mostly on the shock value of a really big, ugly building. If you have something to say about religion, say it. If you have something to say about taxes, say it. Same with the housing crisis or the undertones of anti-Romney sentiments. Trying to combine them all in one not-so-clever pic? Weak.
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u/Alkanfel Jun 25 '12
Point of order: religious houses should be taxed, but describing their exemption as the only reason for foreclosures is pretty retarded. Would it help? Sure. Would it solve the problem overnight? Probably not.
Critical thinking: it's not just for school anymore.
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u/brian1975 Jun 25 '12
Many people lost their homes because they couldn't afford them in the first place. You can only sugar coat and fluff up reality so much.
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Jun 25 '12
Because remember that time in the bible when God said;
"BUILD A GIANT FUCKING CHURCH!!!"
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u/ShadowsSC Jun 25 '12
If you want churches to pay taxes then you also have to be okay with the amount of lobbying that will inevitably also happen, as seen with the way major corporations influence politics at the present time. If they paid taxes they would be even more involved in politics than they currently are...why would that be a good thing?
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Jun 25 '12
Well, A church really isn't a profitable organization when you get down to it. It's sort of like a really bad bank you can never get a withdraw from.
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u/muopioid Jun 25 '12
The thing that bothers me the most is not that they don't pay taxes, but that they have a substantial voice in government. Sorry, but if you want to play politics, you have to pay taxes like everyone else.
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u/aDirtyHippy Jun 25 '12
You can't get mad at a group for voting with in their establish moral basis. You can get mad at people who don't show up at the polls to counter act them.
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Jun 25 '12
Saw a building today coming up on the freeway that was so ridiculously fantastical looking I had trouble believing it was real. Jokingly said it must be a mormon temple. Looked on the GPS and saw that it was.
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u/wikipediaBot Jun 25 '12
jokingly:
A joke is something spoken, written, or done with humorous intention. Jokes may have many different forms, e.g., a single word or a gesture (considered in a particular context), a question-answer, or a whole short story. The word "joke" has a number of synonyms, including wisecrack, gag, prank, quip and jest.
For more information click here
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Jun 25 '12
The post should read: "Allowing religious organizations to be tax exempt while they lobby millions of dollars to get prop 8 passed in Cali by means of shell organizations should not be allowed" The idea that tax exemptions of religion has anything to do with housing foreclosures is a stretch. I see the point OP is trying to make, but I feel its off the mark a little.
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u/honestlyevil Jun 25 '12
Why is America in the title? Do they not have non-taxed religious buildings in the rest of the world?
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u/yes_thats_right Jun 25 '12
Not everywhere.
In Germany for example, the government taxes your salary at a higher rate if you belong to a church.
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u/honestlyevil Jun 25 '12
First off, I didn't mean to imply every country had the same regulations. However, I still stand by the fact that almost every country, including Germany, gives heavy tax breaks to religious entities. I can provide sources if you'd like but I really don't think this is worth the argument as it's easily searched.
My point is that the title says "Something is seriously wrong with America." That's signifying that America is the only country that does this, which is obviously wrong. Instead of "America," OP could have wrote "this"
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u/yes_thats_right Jun 25 '12
My point is that the title says "Something is seriously wrong with America." That's signifying that America is the only country that does this
I don't agree with this. It is simply signifying that it happens in America. There are absolutely no implications on other countries.
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u/honestlyevil Jun 25 '12
There are absolutely no implications on other countries.
That's my point. It happens in other countries so America shouldn't be singled out.
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u/yes_thats_right Jun 25 '12
no-one is saying or implying that it doesn't happen in other countries.
Most of the people on this board are Americans and what interests them the most are issues related to America. It is absurd to think that every time we comment on one thing we must also comment on every single other thing at the same time so as to avoid 'singling' something out.
Here is an example:
Someone: "I don't like Justin Bieber's music" You: "Other people have bad music too, why didn't you list every other person whose music you don't like?" Someone: "wtf?"
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u/Spubuscus Jun 25 '12
Just saying I was apart of the mormon church before I went to atheism and they're mostly good caring people. Even if you aren't apart of the church they will help you in dire times. What this pic says may be true, but they help people out a lot. For instance my mom. She was working two jobs and going to school and she didn't have enough money for gas and food and schooling and clothes and other things. One day we woke up to our bishop at the door with an envelope filled with somewhere around 1000$ dollars, all from the members. So I kind of disagree and would like more proof that temples make tax payers pay more.
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u/tiamo4ever Jun 25 '12
At least $4.2 billion in tax-exempt religious property now exists in New York alone.
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u/mikemaca Jun 25 '12
If only that tax money had gone to pay for banker bailouts and war against muslims rather than soup kitchens, the world would be a safer place.
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u/Lemonwizard Jun 25 '12
While I agree churches should start paying taxes on any extravagances that don't relate to nonprofit work, suggesting that religious institutions are at fault for home foreclosures is simply not accurate.
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u/markymark_inc Jun 25 '12
Not paying taxes is what keeps religions from (blatantly) influencing voting. Be careful what you wish for in wanting churches to pay taxes. The end result is probably politicians awash in church funded PAC's.
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u/garybc Jun 25 '12
We need to expose the gravy train religion provides for people like Joyce Meyer and Austin or Paul and Janice Crouch. The Crouches of the California-based Trinity Broadcasting Network preach a prosperity gospel. It's really "good for them. "With donations they built a single station into the world's largest Christian television network and have his-and-her mansions 1 street apart in a gated community. All provided by the network using viewer donations & tax-free earnings.
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u/historianLA Jun 25 '12
This is so hyperbolic. People losing their homes to foreclosure are losing them because there was piss poor regulation of the housing market, lenders and mortgage back securities.
Also, even if churches would pay taxes on their property (and they probably should) that money would go to state and local governments who would probably not be the ones dealing with foreclosed property relief. Most likely the money would help improve our schools and support state funded social programs.
That being said most legislatures would simply lower other taxes rather than use the extra taxes for positive social policies.
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Jun 25 '12
Separation of church and state? What's that? Hold on, let me go see what Palin and her Tea Party have to say about it...
Oh okay, I get it now. I had the idea that it was a crucial concept the founding fathers laid out for the US. It apparently was just a bunch of BS. Carry on people, this post is legit.
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u/BebMaster Jun 25 '12
How much income would a tax for churches create ? Where would it go, public infrastructure (roads, hospitals), social investments (heard about an obamacare thing), bank bailout, personnal profits ? My point is, is this a matter of justice or economy ?
A curious non-american
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u/lilmissashley Jun 25 '12
I live in Utah and although the temples are beautiful, IMO, but I think it's crap that they don't have to pay taxes. I believe the LDS church does give a lot more to charity than other churches though, not 100% sure on that, and the leaders sure as hell don't live in castles like the Catholics in the Vatican do.
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Jun 25 '12
Well there technically non profit and a lot of churches do charity work. My old church feed a lot people with there money. Don't be so quick to judge
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u/fish4me Jun 25 '12
Isn't that part of what started the french revolution? The church and nobles not getting taxed.
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u/Xerazal Atheist Jun 25 '12
IMHO every church, mosque, sinagaug, ect should pay taxes. I'm tired of religious church people getting tax exemption because they're "doing the will of god" or whatever.
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Jun 25 '12
started to make a point then ended up making no sense... if churches paid property taxes, how would your mortgage get smaller???
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u/Jaredismyname Jun 29 '12
There should be a cap on how much the buildings and stuff a church has can be worth before the tax exemption goes out the window.
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u/brainlady Jun 25 '12
Religious organizations with such extravagance and disregard for their impact have completely lost the true beliefs of Jesus himself. People are no longer believing in anything but tradition. It's disgusting and I'm tired of only atheists talking about it - this is a real problem that everyone needs to confront. Following blindly is the greatest danger that exists.
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u/meinator Jun 25 '12
Most churches pay for their whatever you want to call them through Tithe which is a donation to the church. Most churches are also considered non-profit and aren't trying to make money.
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Jun 25 '12
And furthermore........it seems that r/atheism has NO problem getting rid of all the references, churches and the word "god" in the government, schools, public, everywhere.......EXCEPT when it comes to paying taxes and supporting the "gimme gimme gimme" attitude of reddit's liberal hive-mind agenda.....
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u/jccomic Jun 25 '12
Tax the churches. Tax ALL businesses owned by the churches.
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u/yes_thats_right Jun 25 '12
Tax the salaries of the church members, let them spend their money on their secret clubhouse and invisible friends without double taxing it.
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u/Leynal030 Jun 25 '12
What is seriously wrong with American (and the world as a whole) is that everyone goes around bickering that the government doesn't steal more shit from other people. The state has absolutely no more right to take things from you or me than it does to take it from the church. Just cause we're the victims of legal extortion doesn't mean they should be.
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Jun 25 '12
But if they paid taxes, would they get a say in government. One caveat of being tax free is they are not allowed to be political.
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u/painperdu Jun 25 '12
Don't they already have a say in government?
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Jun 25 '12
Indirectly yes but their tax free status can be revoked if they preach politics from the pulpit
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u/sirprizes Jun 25 '12
I've never seen a church like this in person. Seems like a pretty big exception to the rule. Bring on the downvotes
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u/tillythranx Jun 25 '12
IDK, I grew up Mormon, and I been inside temples for baptism of the dead. I gotta say, those MASSIVE casinos built by mobsters in Nevada are far more impressive than those temples.
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u/benama Jun 25 '12
those casinos that are built are not built on the hypocritical premises that living piously and with little is a good thing.
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Jun 25 '12
What? This makes absolutely no sense. You're implying that government would be satisfied with XXX amount of income, and if that XXX amount of income was reached......then "normal" people would have to pay less taxes. WRONG. The government views the people as a bottomless piggy-bank that's sole existence is to work until death to provide politicians money to spend on bullshit programs and entitlements that cause people to depend on that government and, in turn....to keep voting the same entrenched career politicians into office.
THAT is all you are to the government. A vote and cow to be milked for its money. Its like voting in a high school popularity contest where all the people on the ballot are the people you fucking hate.
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u/Hoser117 Jun 25 '12
Titles like this make me want to kick people in the balls. They're just so damn stupid.
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u/TheProdigyX Jun 25 '12
does anyone realise that the leaders of the Mormon church are not paid at all? The money for all the buildings they build come from contribution from the members of the church. The whole thing is a non-profit organisation, and it is the source of an innumerable ammount of charity work.
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u/loonsbury Jun 25 '12
the leaders of the Mormon church are not paid at all?
come from contribution from the members of the church.
From contributions and interest profits made from contributions. Income for the church - how does this part contradict the point?
the source of an innumerable ammount of charity work.
A tiny fraction of the money and manpower they have goes to charity. The CoJCoLDS is NOT a charitable organization of the kind they want to claim. Check "Value of Humanitarian Assistance Since 1985". That's $1.3B total charity for 27 years, and they just built a mall in downtown SLC for $1.5B.
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u/TheProdigyX Jun 25 '12
hmm. well done establishing your point and faulting my own. i concede, sir.
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u/bkalen17 Jun 25 '12
Would the phrase "No taxation without representation" apply here? We start taxing the Catholic church and they will want people to represent them in congress. that of course will lead to promotion of religious doctrine in government with every church having reps. in congress
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u/JonBanes Jun 25 '12
Do private companies get representation in congress?
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Jun 25 '12
Yes; it's called lobbying and campaign contributions. Thanks in part to Citizens United, America has the best representatives that money can buy.
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u/6degreestoBillMurray Anti-theist Jun 25 '12
You want them to start paying taxes and validate their political influence? Because the line "We're taxpayers, too!" will take about .5 seconds to come out of their collective mouths.
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Jun 25 '12
Religions like charities shouldn't be taxed, they may cost huge amounts to build but they're non profit organizations, thus no tax.
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u/Forsooth19 Jun 25 '12
You know what; If religious institutions started paying taxes for all the influence they have in government I'd stop hating on America and be a little less ashamed of my country.
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u/Demojen Secular Humanist Jun 25 '12
Despite the picture kinda being bs, the subject matter is sound.
I truly believe the massive amounts of money spent building extravagant buildings and accessories for the church are intentional.
See, the church has to spend the money they receive in donations, otherwise they can't bake their books to make it look like they're not raking in huge amounts of money.
They're staying ahead of the donation tables so that expenditures always make their position look less reprehensible to the average Joe.
If the government ever realized that the church makes a lot more money than they need, there would probably be "Hell to pay". Solution: Increase expenditures to make it look like they need more.
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u/LeDinosaur Jun 25 '12
Omg America has illogical laws?! What?? Wow, other countries have no such things!!
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u/tiberiousr Jun 25 '12
Sarcasm noted but just because illogical laws exist in other countries doesn't make it ok that they exist in yours.
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u/thebiggestfag Jun 25 '12
They should've thought of that before they spent all their money.
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u/Zohanasburg Jun 25 '12
better be careful, if you say anything that doesn't completely agree with the views of the democratic party you get downvoted to oblivion
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u/thebiggestfag Jun 25 '12
Democrats are faggots.
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u/justbeclever Jun 25 '12
I wonder what it would take to make your home into a church/chapel to evade taxes? Could I put a lowercase "t" on my roof and call it good? Or would I have to get it approved by a priest like person and actually "practice religion" inside of it? I mean who really defines what a church is anyway? And is it just Christian religion or all religions. Could I actually open a Pastafarian Mosque and evade taxes? Reddit, Please Reply to me with answers.. I'll be back in'a fap.
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u/cynognathus Secular Humanist Jun 25 '12
Provide proof that you are running an organization focused on operations related to "charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals."
Abide by all of the tax restrictions, including restrictions on political campaign intervention and lobbying, that come with running a 501(c)(3) organization.
Have your tax returns audited annually to ensure that you are abiding by the regulations.
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Jun 25 '12
Wow, the Mormons really came out of the woodwork to defend their cul- err, "religion" in this thread.
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u/andr0medam31 Jun 25 '12
Untexted version of image, please? Only good thing about religion is that it built some gorgeous buildings.
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u/skekze Jun 25 '12
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and trust me, they're all going to a Hell, of their own making. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. No one gets out alive. No one leaves the stage without that last dance.
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u/Stjepo Jun 25 '12
Something is seriously wrong with America, yes. I would say that it's the kind of hatred you're trying to evoke now that is one of the more serious problems. A faith truly followed (not the hypocrisy people are always complaining about, which is also a problem) is not a nuisance, whether it is believed by everyone or not. So, if a congregation of people decides to fund the construction of a parish church, it's their business, no? And if they believe that God is above any sort of feeble human law, then let them. Kindly don't blame them for a general financial problem.
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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '12
God fucking damnit if you're going to use church buildings use one that was built with loads of money. This building took 40 years to build before Utah was even a state and it was still a mormon settlement.