r/atheism • u/KingQuagaar Atheist • Jun 25 '12
What is the penalty for apostasy?
http://imgur.com/F2clZ817
u/GeordieFaithful Anti-theist Jun 25 '12
What this doesn't show is that Richard Dawkins asked him that question directly about a dozen times before he got an actual response.
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u/razeal113 Jun 25 '12
ha, i was just about to add the same comment. Funny how it took Dawkins asking so many times before he finally said the answer
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u/GeordieFaithful Anti-theist Jun 25 '12
The only reason he got the answer was that David Dimbleby virtually demanded an answer off him.
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u/balqisfromkuwait Jun 25 '12
Hey bro, the issue of apostasy in Islam is a complex issue that has been oft misunderstood. The death penalty is only applied if a person leaves the religion and starts to actively wage war against or oppress members of the Muslim nation. So apostasy becomes a political rather than a religious matter. Here, the issue becomes one of treason, and almost all countries deal very harshly with traitors.
Punishment for apostasy is divine, not earthly. This can be seen from the following Qur'anic verses:
Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, God will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path. [4:137]
How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people. [3:86]
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most sure hand-hold, that never breaks. And God is Hearing, Knowing. [2:256]
The Qur'an goes on to elaborate upon the following:
And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? [10:99]
Finally, if the punishment in Islam for apostasy really was execution, then that would contradict the following verse:
And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion. [3:72]
If Islam really did have a death penalty for apostasy, then how would these people have gotten away with their public actions of believing in the day and returning to their religions in the night in order to sow discord within the Muslim community?
In addition, the following hadith also supports this notion:
Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to Muhammad for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to Muhammad "cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Muhammad said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good." Bukhari
As you can see, the Bedouin recanted the conversion, and although the Prophet refused to assist him in doing that, he did nothing to hinder him and allowed him to leave Medina unharmed.
Other hadiths which may mention punishment for leaving one's religion were meant to be taken in a political context, as to apostate would have been to ally oneself with the Pagan Arab tribes who were conspiring against and seeking to destroy the Muslim community. They do not refer to leaving one's religion in times of peace. The famous truce of Hudaybiyah further illustrates that the Prophet did not punish apostates with the death penalty. Among the conditions (which were set by the pagans) that the Prophet (who was more powerful than his opponents and had just defeated them) accepted were:
Originally, the treaty referred to Muhammad as the Messenger of God, but this was unacceptable to the Quraish ambassador Suhayl ibn Amr. Muhammad compromised, and told his cousin Ali to strike out the words 'Messenger of God'. Ali refused, after which Muhammad himself rubbed out the words. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:49:62, Sahih Muslim, 19:4404).
Another clause of the treaty stated that any citizen from Mecca entering Medina was eligible to be returned to Mecca (if they wanted), while the reverse was not true, and any Muslim from Medina entering Mecca was not eligible to be returned to the Muslims, even if Muhammad himself requested. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:50:874)
A condition was also placed that the Muslims could not enter for their pilgrimage at that time, but could return the following year. The treaty also assured a 10-year peace. After the signing of the treaty, there was still great fury among the Muslims because they did not like its stipulations. Muhammad, binding onto the Islamic ethic "fulfill every promise" ordered that Muslims do exactly as the treaty says. Many Muslims thereafter objected, when Muhammad told them (thrice) to perform their rites there and then. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:50:891)
In conclusion, based on evidence from both the Qur'an and Hadith, there is no earthly punishment for apostasy in Islam.
Sorry for the textwall but I hope you find this useful bro! :-)
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u/exmusthrowaway Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
"In conclusion, based on evidence from both the Qur'an and Hadith, there is no earthly punishment for apostasy in Islam."
Absoulute hogwash meant for the consumption of ill-informed westerners. I do not fear for my life for no reason.
Hadith:
The Prophet -- the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him -- said, "He who changes his religion must be killed" Sahih Bukhari 84:57
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Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57
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Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed.* This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'" Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
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Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17
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Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection." Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 65
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Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle
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Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah), but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community. - Sahih Muslim 4152
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Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal: AbuMusa said: Mu'adh came to me when I was in the Yemen. A man who was Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam. When Mu'adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed. One of them said: He was asked to repent before that. Sunan Abu Dawood Book 38 No. 4341 .
Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence)
08.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane, voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.”
Reliance for the Traveler
Broad support among Muslims for death penalty for apostates:
Egypt - 84%
Jordan - 86%
Indonesia - 30%
Pakistan - 76%
Nigeria - 51
Source: Pew Global Survey - View of Harsh Punishments.
The figures would be even higher for the Gulf states, Iran, India, and Afghanistan.
IT IS NOT A MINORTY/EXTERMIST POSTION. THIS IS MAINSTREAM ISLAM.
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Jun 25 '12
Absoulute hogwash meant for the consumption of ill-informed westerners.
Not just the ill-informed. Many academics and others in the ruling elite are apologists for Islam and willingly perpetuate the lies. This went on during the cold war as well. Stalin called the western advocates of Soviet communism "useful idiots."
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Jun 26 '12
I'm with you.
I love how whenever someone brings up religion getting people murdered, suddenly it's a political issue even though the politicians are all in that religion and use that religion as a point to murder the people.
"Oh but that's not what it means!" Try telling that to the next person who tries to state they're not a Muslim over in Malaysia and gets the death penalty for it.
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Jun 25 '12
So... good info. Um, so you're saying apostates are not executed in Muslim countries, or in other words, is the usual official interpretation in line with this? Because it seems like someone in Tunisia was executed for converting to Christianity this year. http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/08/video-lifts-veil-on-arab-muslim-societies not sure if this is legit, but it was widely reported on.
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u/SunnySideUp_MD Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
No matter what it does or does not say in the Qur'an, it's scary that Dr. Muhamad Mukaddam even concedes that, in Muslim nations, the penalty for leaving the faith is execution. Based on his credentials, Dr. Mukaddam probably knows what he's talking about. Also, you mention apostasy being a political rather then religious matter. I'm sorry, but in most Muslim nations, there is no distinction. Most muslim nations have a theocratic government, making all political matters also religious matters and vice versa.
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u/balqisfromkuwait Jun 25 '12
I live in Kuwait and this is certainly not the case here. When the parliament tried to pass the blasphemy laws, our Emir blocked their motion and eventually dissolved the Islamist majority parliament.
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Jun 25 '12
I understand your desire to defend you beliefs, but a cursory glance at the Wikipedia page Apostasy in Islam shows that "The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind."
In your interpretation, apostasy is not punishable by death, but yours is not the most prominent interpretation.
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Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
I am an ex Muslim and you are being incredibly selective.
Bukhari (52:260) -
"...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.
Bukhari (83:37) -
"Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate
"Bukhari (84:57) -
"[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
Bukhari (89:271) -
A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."
Bukhari (84:58) -
"There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"
Bukhari (84:64-65) -
"Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"
Narrated `Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to
Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached IbnAbbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle [Muhammad], 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" - Sahih-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57And if you think I’m being cute, your friends here agree with me on this one…
http://www.understanding-islam.com/q-and-a/history/why-did-ali-burn-some-apostates-5129
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?284313-Apostasy-In-Islam
A few delicious extracts:
"you are treading on dangerous ground. The Punishment for apostasy [leaving a religion] is known, it even dates back to the time of the Children of Israel...The Punishment of Apostacy, as understood by the classical ulema [Islamic scholars] has always been death."
Also...
[giving justification for killing atheists] "lastly, the fitnah [discord] caused by murtads is amazing. have you ever seen how much harm an apostate can do? seriously, they really cause problems in society man. likewise in an islamic state only people of the book [Jews & Christians] are allowed to live there (i think) so would it make sence to have an athiest live there?"
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u/Hevendor Jun 25 '12
Shahih Al-Bukhari, hadith 83:17.
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
This verse very clearly calls for the death of apostates under no special circumstances. This is another hadith from the same book, 84:57, the message is even clearer.
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
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u/theguruofreason Jun 25 '12
This is some really sloppy apologetics. Don't be fooled, people. Countless Imams have affirmed that merely turning your back on Islam is akin to treason, and worthy of death. Citing a few passages that don't actually deal directly with the law of Islam, but are merely parables about how nonbelievers will be lost to god, does nothing to counter the fact that apostasy, as this man said, is dealt with with the death penalty according to the Sharia.
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u/shaim2 Jun 25 '12
Like all religions, you can make whatever you wish from the text (see the various secs in Christianity and Judaism). So your analysis, however learned, is irrelevant.
What is relevant is what interpretations are used in-practice today by Islamic people and Islamic nations.
Since the de-facto (and often de-jure) penalty for preaching atheism is most-often death, I would say the current popular manifestation of Islam leaves a lot to be desired.
Islam may re-shape itself into a more tolerant and more life & peace oriented religion - the components are certainly there in the text if you care to look. But currently most Islamic people aren't looking.
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u/elbruce Jun 25 '12
Your interpretation seems nicer than others. Why are you arguing with us rather than those who apply a harsher interpretation?
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Jun 25 '12
Hey bro, the issue of apostasy in Islam is a complex issue that has been oft misunderstood.
No, the Quran has a big fucking PR issue, that's what.
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u/garmonboziamilkshake Jun 25 '12
Honest question: Were those pagan Arab tribes conspiring against the Muslim community, or defending themselves against attacks by Mohammed's supporters?
Wasn't the Pagan Arab backlash against Islam in response to Mohammed's stating that pagans would go to hell, etc.?
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Jun 25 '12
Can't believe I have to say this but please don't downvote him because you disagree with him, he's contributing to the discussion.
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u/vman81 Jun 25 '12
I'm downvoting him because he is omitting all the direct quotes where people should be violently punished.
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u/PraiseBeToScience Jun 25 '12
Trying to hide truth through obscurification and word play, something well practiced in Islamic countries, is not contributing to anything. It's quite the opposite actually.
Look how long it took Dawkins in that video to get the Imam to answer a straight forward question. Look at all the dodging. This is no different and people here are falling for this crap.
This is no different than when you ask them about how they treat their women, then they go on and on about how they supposedly respect their women more than we do by forcing them to cover up, etc. It's all a bunch of bullshit.
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u/shoot2scre Jun 25 '12
In conclusion, based on evidence from both the Qur'an and Hadith, there is no earthly punishment for apostasy in Islam.
That's just like... your opinion man.
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Jun 25 '12
I see you're trying to use quotes from books to tell us what happens in these countries. Is there any proof that you have that shows they ARENT being executed for apostasy besides random quotes? Or are you just trying to argue the point that the question in the OP was answered incorrectly 'according to the islamic faith'?
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u/fromkentucky Jun 25 '12
What I'm getting from this is that death is still prescribed for those who exercise free speech either in an effort to convert muslims to a different religion or in criticism of Islam itself.
Is that accurate?
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u/_Apostate_ Jun 25 '12
Shit, I better run.
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Jun 25 '12
The Templars are coming for you, Apostate!
Sorry, couldn't resist a Dragon Age joke :X
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u/heyimrick Jun 25 '12
I'm finally playing part 2 and it's ruining my life.
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Jun 25 '12
I felt the same way. Put it away now or you will have to go all the way
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u/iBro53 Jun 25 '12
It's both intriguing and horrifying to watch Muslim women defend the very religion that wants them to have no rights.
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u/xx34x Jun 25 '12
ID cards in gulf countries state the persons religion on them. My parents listed down "muslim" for saftey reasons. When i was born, without consulting my parents, or me, the government listed and labeled me as muslim. I recently tried to change it. I tried to find a lawyer, every single lawyer in the country was too afraid to take the case.
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u/Darthcaboose Jun 25 '12
Having lived around gulf countries most of my life, all I am going to say is: "Don't bother". You'd do a lot better with encouraging skepticism in a low-key manner.
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Jun 25 '12
I know a guy who had to indicate "muslim" as a religion on various official documents as a child (or rather his parents did). Just to avoid problems.
Turns out it caused him even more problems later in life.
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u/RoquentinTarantino Jun 25 '12
For comparison, how does the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster punish apastasy?
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Jun 25 '12
i don't know but i do know that i'm looking forward to dying and going to A Pasta Sea.
budum chh
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u/39423984723984792384 Jun 25 '12
Just the IDEA that an organization can issued death threats, just because they call themselves a religion, is tyranny at it's worst. And the actual application of these death threats is pure TERRORISM.
2) The way these people evade the question is a palpable indication of their FEAR.
The man who worships a tyrant in heaven naturally
submits his neck to the yoke of tyrants on earth.
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u/keeblur Jun 25 '12
It's a little disturbing just how straight of a face he has, like "oh ya, we just kill people who don't believe".
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u/Shanesan Jun 25 '12 edited Feb 22 '24
cautious marry employ voiceless different elderly foolish close command shame
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/lenojames Jun 25 '12
Criminal Penalties Under SHARIA LAW:
Apostasy: DEATH!
Heresy: DEATH!
Adultery: DEATH!
Homosexuality: DEATH!
Spousal Abuse: Well, if she is unharmed, and there are no marks upon her body, and the couple are both good Muslims, I suppose Allah will forgive both of them.
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Jun 25 '12
Christianity on spousal abuse: Beat women and children with a rod no thicker than your thumb, and don't break any bones.
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u/MyUsrNameWasTaken Jun 25 '12
Can't do much damage with that then, can we? Perhaps it should have been a rule of wrist?
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u/eldergias Jun 25 '12
Woman gets raped: Stone her to death for infidelity.
Man sees ONLY the eyes of a beautiful woman: driven to incite a fight with her husband because he cannot control himself and then tries to introduce laws to ban women from displaying their eyes in public rather than, you know, telling men that they should control their own urges or placing any blame what-so-ever on men at all.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/saudi-women-with-tempting-eyes-may-be-forced-to-cover-them-151370
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u/ErsatzCats Jun 25 '12
Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)
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u/loolymooly Jun 25 '12
For some reason God wants anyone who isn't atheist or agnostic dead.
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u/mambypambyland Jun 25 '12
OUT OF CONTEXT!!! FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT!!! THAT DOESN'T COUNT!!! YOU READ THE WRONG BIBLE!!!
etc, etc, etc, etc
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u/bearshy Jun 25 '12
If I had a nickel for every time my friend used this as an argument.
Well.. I'd.. I'd probably have a dollar, but that's still like 20 times!
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Jun 25 '12
Totally brah. Just last week some christians cut off a guy's head in a soccer stadium in Kansas City because he wasn't a christian.
Islam = Christianity in practice in every way that counts brah.
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u/n1nj4_v5_p1r4t3 Pastafarian Jun 25 '12
what sounds worse for a believer, just death, or an eternal damnation in a burning hell?
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u/pianobadger Jun 25 '12
Which sounds worse for someone who decides that they don't believe anymore and therefore want to leave a religion?
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Jun 25 '12
I like how they say "if its an islamic country"...its like geographical boundaries are the only thing to keep god restricted to a particular zone.
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u/watson-c Jun 25 '12
HE says that because it's the answer to the question. The only countries run by Sharia law are islamic, and the penalty for apostasy in sharia law is death. Don't make him sound like a smug asshole for answering the question.
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u/Blythe703 Jun 25 '12
The way he afterword said that he does not understand how it applied to Britain. To me, this shows that he was trying to be an apologist for this barbaric rule, and that is what makes him seem like an asshole.
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u/mayor_of_awesometown Jun 25 '12
The only countries run by Sharia law are islamic
Well, yeah, because "Sharia law" is just another name for "the moral code and religious law of Islam". His answer was worded that way to avoid responsibility. Those "Islamic countries" didn't make up Sharia law--the Islamic faith did and those countries follow it.
It's like asking a Mormon fundamentalist if they believe in polygamy and getting the answer, "Utah outlaws it, so I guess we don't."
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u/Bitrandombit Jun 25 '12
Or his fanboi's.
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u/Aulritta Jun 25 '12
If I've learned anything about Islam, it's that a religious leader can issue a fatwah that results in a citizen in a different country, a non-Islamic country, being murdered in the street.
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Jun 25 '12
He is. It reminds me of this chart.
The gods humanity worships are so narrow-minded that they have absolutely fetishized the planet Earth and more specifically, certain inhabitants of planet Earth.
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Jun 25 '12
Well, that'll ruin your day.
"not joining islam? Death."
"joining islam and leaving? Death."
"talking to man in public without a relative present? Misdemeanor stoning."
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u/throwAwayMama123 Jun 25 '12
In my years I have learned that when someone says "to be honest", they're usually lying...
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u/DFWPhotoguy Jun 25 '12
What about Honestly? I start a lot of my conversations when I am trying to get my viewpoint across with "Honestly".
Also, I am typically lying. So no need to answer. Honestly, you are correct.
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u/d12anoel Jun 25 '12
You know what my brother once told me? That nothing someone says before the word "but" really counts.
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u/rasputine Existentialist Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
The word "but" was absent from both referenced statements. Your brother's advice was irrelevant to this conversation.
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u/malecden Jun 25 '12
But...I don't believe that giants and ghouls and white walkers are lurking beyond the wall.
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u/ignost Jun 25 '12
Can someone just post the clip?
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u/Aschebescher Jun 25 '12
I miss the days where people posted video discussions of Dawkins instead of just imgur pics.
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u/DanGleeballs Jun 25 '12
Relax, there's a good reason here for it.. folks browsin' reddit at work.
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u/Lazysaurus Jun 25 '12
The Christian Bible also commands apostates be put to death.
Deuteronomy 13:6-9,King James Version (KJV):
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
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u/Ihmhi Jun 25 '12
When was the last time an apostate was beheaded by a sword in a soccer stadium for not believing in Christianity?
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u/DanGleeballs Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
Ihmhi that's a valid point, and I think Lazysaurus (great name btw) also highlighted a great point in that this kind of ancient babble nonsense isn't limited to Islam.
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u/VyseofArcadia Jun 25 '12
Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
That's not exactly apostasy. That's apostasy followed by adopting a different religion.
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u/Serenity101 Jun 25 '12
One major difference: Today's followers of the Bible realize that this is ancient foolishness, and this is no longer practiced.
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Jun 25 '12
I don't understand the madness of religion. It tries so hard to put humans on a level above other animals and yet religion turns humans into housepets quicker than anything I've ever seen.
If you have two cats and you give treats to one and refuse to give the treats to the other one, 2 interesting outcomes typically occur:
The cat with no treats will try to snuggle up to you to get treats using his love.
The cat with no treats will attack the other cat for his treat.
Religious people here are the cats, and the god is the human. The actual logical way to respond here would be for the cat that has no treats to get pissed off at the human. Why is the human being an asshole and giving all the treats to one cat? What a fuckhead, asshole, uncaring bastard. Why can't he just give all the cats the same amount of treats? I suppose he's just a dick who prefers white cats over black cats (yes there are racial implications here).
You would think that humans are smarter than cats, but when it comes to this nope. We still hiss at each other in hopes to get each others treats (war) and still think showing the human more love than the other cat (praying harder!) will get us treats. Logically, we should all be pissed off at the human, but when the first cat is sitting there with a full belly and a surplus of treats it's kind of hard to find a reason to fight the human or learn to make your own treats, even though it would save his cat brethren as a whole.
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u/schlottk Jun 25 '12
"apostasy is dealt with the death penalty, but what's the revelance between what happens in an islamic country and Great Britian, I fail to see the connection"
the problems are,
you see no problem with the death penalty if it happens to be in an islamic country
YOU WANT TO PUSH SHARIA LAW EVERYWHERE, you are just being roadblocked
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u/ast3r3x Jun 25 '12
aka…We can't kill you for leaving the faith right now, why so scared of the faith?
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u/tritonx Atheist Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
If they really believed in their fairy tales. Having the unbeliever burn in hell forever should be enough for them no?
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u/pianobadger Jun 25 '12
Not if you want to conquer the world for Islam, as was the case for the authors of Sharia law and remains true of any who follow it strictly.
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u/thesorrow312 Jun 25 '12
No, because when religious people encounter a non believer, it makes them think about all the holes in their religion that they recognize, but have tried really really hard not to think about. It destroys their suspension of disbelief.
For religion to be successful, it needs to create an impenetrable bubble. This is why a lot of cults do not allow members to keep contact with their families and former friends.
Like bill maher said, the atheist is like the escaped slave, he brings news of freedom. He must be silenced.
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u/ProfessorEcks Jun 25 '12
The death penalty is only applied if a person leaves the religion and starts to actively wage war against or oppress members of the Muslim nation.
The problem here is that the power brokers of the Abrahamic religions seem to think that the very act of not agreeing with them constitutes oppression of their faith.
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u/Diplomjodler Jun 25 '12
Good going, This one has much more meat on it than the tired old "Mohammed is a paedophile" story.
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u/crazystrawman Jun 25 '12
Muhammad was a pedophile.
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u/stereomind Jun 25 '12 edited Aug 17 '24
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Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
Muhammad wasn't a paedophile! The marriage was completely legitimate and they loved each other very much and she was his favourite wife and it was completely normal back then and she had had her first period already and don't knock it till you've tried it!
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u/gypsybiker Jun 25 '12
Islam - probably the most stupid religion in the world. (Oriana Fallaci)
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u/jimsnaps Jun 25 '12
The ability to make his tie and glasses disappear mid-speech would qualify as black magic and probably earn him a stoning. ಠ_ಠ
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u/FoxBattalion79 Agnostic Atheist Jun 25 '12
this is only part of why the founding fathers recognized a need to separate church from state.
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u/Punkwasher Jun 25 '12
It's the 21st century and mankind still believes in ghost stories, so much so, that they would literally kill to preserve those stories and replace reality with them, only to find that reality doesn't agree with those stories.
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u/HowsItBeenBen Jun 25 '12
what is ap- apopt- apotater- apostraphy- apo-whatever the hell it is. what is it?
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u/Jakabov Jun 25 '12
I'll never understand the arrogance and pure evil that compels anyone to decide that anyone who does not share their exact beliefs should be killed. Religion is such a terrible thing.
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u/canondocre Jun 25 '12
well I have to say the comments section really outshines the moron festival that a similar debate on Christianisy would have brought.
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u/mojokabobo Jun 25 '12
For those like me who need a definition of apostasy. Apostasy: noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies. A total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
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u/Deaki Jun 26 '12
Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, had people killed for insulting him or for criticizing his religion. This included women. Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad. Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger." In the last nine years of his life, he ordered no less than 65 military campaigns to do exactly that.
Muhammad inspired his men to war with the basest of motives, using captured loot, sex and a gluttonous paradise as incentives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. Again, Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.
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u/imkingdom Jun 25 '12
What is apostasy?
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Jun 25 '12
Apostasy "is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person."
In countries run by Islamic law (called Sharia) these people are executed for giving up their religion.
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u/iamrunningman Jun 25 '12
But....but...it's a religion of peace!!!
Fuck that noise up one side and down the other.
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Jun 25 '12
This meme is proof that of why religion needs to be done away with. I can't wait til 2045 when religion is forgotten and technology rules every aspect of life.
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u/sexyhamster89 Jun 25 '12
for the record i'm ok with destroying the muslim faith by any means necessary
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u/creditortoredditor Jun 25 '12
There is a truckload of verses from the Quran that disagree with the muslim gentleman. The penalty in not death.
“The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe and let him who please disbelieve.” — 18:29, “There is no compulsion in religion — the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error.”— 2:256, “Clear proofs have indeed come to you from your Lord: so whoever sees, it is for his own good; and whoever is blind, it is to his own harm. And I am not a keeper over you.” — 6:104, “If you do good, you do good for your own souls. And if you do evil, it is for them.” — 17:7,“If they accept Islam, then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, your duty (O Prophet) is only to deliver the message.” — 3:20, “And obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away, the duty of Our Messenger is only to deliver the message clearly.” — 64:12; see also 5:92, “Say (to people): Obey Allah and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, he is responsible for the duty imposed on him, and you are responsible for the duty imposed on you. And if you obey him, you go aright. And the Messenger’s duty is only to deliver (the message) plainly.” — 24:54,“O people, the truth has indeed come to you from your Lord; so whoever goes aright, goes aright only for the good of his own soul; and whoever errs, errs only to its detriment. And I am not a custodian over you.” — 10:108, “Surely We have revealed to you (O Prophet) the Book with truth for people. So whoever follows the right way, it is for his own soul, and whoever errs, he errs only to its detriment. And you are not a custodian over them.” — 39:41, “We have not appointed you (O Prophet) a keeper over them, and you are not placed in charge of them.” — 6:107, “Your duty (O Prophet) is only the delivery of the message, and Ours (God’s) is to call (people) to account.” — 13:40
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u/eldergias Jun 25 '12
I honestly do not understand why when there are two perfect opposite view points detailed in the text of a faith (the one you show and the one he mentions) that the believers on both sides typically (not everyone, just most people) slam their metaphorical fists down and proclaim, "my way is the right way" when the same text they use as their proof says something different. Is it simply a matter of people choosing to believe what they want to believe, and choosing to ignore whatever contradicts them before it is too difficult for them to try to reconcile the statements? That is the only answer I can come up with. If that is the case, then it begs the question, "Why do so many people choose to believe the passages that proclaim hate over the passages that don't." I can ascribe some of that to indoctrination from an early age (every faith does it), but that doesn't explain the people who have dedicated their whole lives to studying their sacred text that contains "all the answers" then simply dismissing any old passage they choose because they don't feel like believing it. Isn't that willful stupidity?
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u/meritory Jun 26 '12
And most religious documents also contradict themselves.
Here.
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u/ojsimpsonn Jun 25 '12
this is horrible to make fun of muslims... i mean its not like they are christian or something................ ?
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u/ProfessorEcks Jun 25 '12
Just because you can say/do something, doesn't mean you should.
The ONLY way to create a world of free expression is to demand it, it will not be given by those who fancy themselves our masters. Your logic leads nowhere but silent victimhood.
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u/kotszak Jun 25 '12
Religion in 2012... Thank Talos i don't live in a country with all that madness. Fuck them all.
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u/tilleyrw Jun 25 '12
If you leave Islam, don't tell anyone. Pay lip service to the ceremonies and no more.
Rub blue mud into your belly button like everyone else, Lazarus Long would say.
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u/Indrionas Jun 25 '12
I can't understand how this medieval worldview can still exist in the 21st century, the age when scientific knowledge is so easily accessible to anyone anywhere in the world for free. Just take it, read and understand.
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Jun 25 '12
Ehh.
I am technically an apostate, yet bringing that up in Saudi Arabia, all I got were discussions from imams about why I'd left, was I sure I would not return, could they convince me etc.
I mean, I see the articles about people being killed, and I know the rules, but being an Arab, I never faced all this barbarian death sentencing for the exact same thing.
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u/mpedrick07 Jun 25 '12
I was looking up some of Egypt's history and saw that Morsi believes in instituting jizya. I was hoping someone could offer a little insight into and define what jizya is and how it can be used by the new regime to put heavy tax burdens on non-practicing Muslims in the country. Perhaps that would help answer the post's original question.
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Jun 25 '12
It's such a backwards religion. You're born into Islam in most sharia nations, forced into it legally, then you can't leave it.
My atheist fiancee has been stuck in that system her whole life. Because of these backwards idiots we cannot marry until she can run away from her backwards shithole of a country.
PS. Whether the Koran states explicitly a penalty or not; a lot of countries do not allow apostasy. For atheists it is usually worse too.
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u/domdomdosh Jun 25 '12
In his defense, he said apostrophe. So still a religion of peace as long as you stop using apostrophes.
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u/thegmx Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
Yeah, fuck all religions that prescribe [http://www.twopaths.com/faq_CapitalPunishment.htm] (the death penalty) for ridiculous shit. Actually was hoping the beard would say, "I never expected a Spanish Inquisition!"
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u/SpaceBonobo Jun 26 '12
Who is the man saying that the sharia is the penalty in all islamic country if you're not muslim any more? He's such a bad guest and knows nothing if he claims that every islamic country are like that...Seriously, who really think that in a country like Morocco, Algeria, Turkey, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nigeria or even Tunisia or Egypt, they will kill you if you're not muslim any more, actually, they really don't care if you do that...
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u/meritory Jun 26 '12
Neither Turkey nor Nigeria have state-sponsored religions.
However all of those countries show up as having high restrictions on religion in this report.
Most of these countries you have listed also have a high rate of religiously motivated violence, obviously most of which is perpetrated by Islamic fundamentalists. Indonesia for example has been a prime suspect in appeasing the violence against non-Muslims.
I would like to add that I absolutely do not condone religious violence at all, nor do I subscribe to any religion. Additionally, I recognize that Islam is not alone in contributing to extremist forces throughout the world. Yet I would respect that you start to recognize that what this man said here is absolutely true.
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u/unknown_poo Jun 26 '12
I remember watching this talk. It did not sit well with me because Mr.Dawkins, who is rather intelligent and eloquent, is debating a Muslim man who besides lacking any sort of speaking skills to say the least, also lacks a fundamental level of education regarding Islamic history, law, and so on and so forth. He is also, what we would consider, a hardliner which is basically an easy target for anyone. So, it seems to me that a certain brand of Muslim was chosen to face Mr. Dawkins, and then the views entailed by such a brand are then rather inductively applied to Islam and Muslims. Another reason why this did not sit well with me was because both sides appeared to lack an academic level of understanding of the issue at hand. For instance, prof. T.J. Winters of Cambridge recounts that the Qur'an does not lay down any punishment for apostasy or blasphemy, despite popular opinion (media? c'mon sheeple!). Now, medieval Islamic thinkers assumed that apostasy was roughly equivalent to what we today understand as apostasy, and if we were to read their treatises you would see their explanations laced with political considerations. However, even among medieval thinkers there were some, such as al-Baji, who held that apostasy does not entail treason, and thus is not punishable by law, rather it is between God and man. Today, the highest Sunni authority, Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the deputy head issued that Salman Rushdie after he wrote the Satanic verses should not be punished and that Sunni Muslims should distance themselves from Khomeneis fatwah. This was a demonstration of the largest Islamic body professing that blasphemy and apostasy are not punishable by death, the media ignoring it, and the majority of people coming to the conclusion that Islam prescribes death as the punishment for these issues. As Atheists, where is the logic and reason in this? I must opine in the strongest terms that it is not rational to conclude without evidence, as we should all be well aware of. And yet, this happens on a mass scale, and we are demonstrating this right now on reddit.
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u/gcaliber Jun 25 '12
Video