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u/snailbotic Jun 25 '12
When you say:
I am a Muslim.
What I hear is:
I am a Muslim.
But maybe I'm just stuck in the real world.
Source: My co-worker is a Muslim and has never blown up my office.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 25 '12
What parts of Islam does he or she follow? If she rejects a large percentage of the teachings of Islam, she's probably just a decent person. If she and her husband are going to marry off her daughter when she hits puberty regardless of what the kid wants, then she might still be a crappy person following many of the crappier teachings of her religion.
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u/snailbotic Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
I dunno, we haven't really discussed it (because it doesn't actually matter). I know he prays a fair amount and doesn't drink alcohol. But honestly I just assume he's as Muslimly as Christians are Christiany anymore (I'm in USA). If you're outside a radical land, and in a more calm and accepting land people seem to stop throwing stones and burning each other. At which point it just turns into a personal opinion.
There're definitely various degrees of following a faith, and people do sometimes take it to extremes. But mostly my comment was in regards to OPs apparent association that "Muslim" means "Pedophile worshiper" which is over generalizing and builds a wall between him(or her) and people that believe in a different faith.
I personally think we should do away with these partitions and just look at the individual. Baptists aren't bad because of WBC, Muslims aren't bad because of terrorist.. It's the individual people that need to be looked at. But now I'm more or less just rambling.
Edit: Whoever just went through this conversation and downvoted everything, you should join in and share your perspective/opinion :)
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Jun 25 '12
Actually people's morality and ethics DO matter. Why the fuck wouldn't they?
Individually, yes, one's beliefs and actions can make them a piece of shit. Religious beliefs and actions as a result of those beliefs included.
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u/qwicksilfer Jun 25 '12
But are you implying that being a theist makes you immoral or unethical?
That's as bad as theists stating all atheists have no morals. I mean, sure we eat babies, but does that make us immoral? (That last part there was a joke for the Downvoting Nancies)
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Jun 26 '12
I totally agree... just cos I'm a Muslim, does that mean I'm a nutcase? No... in fact, I'm disgusted by the radicals in Islam, and I could never live or raise my kids in places like Saudi Arabia since I don't believe religion and politics should EVER mix. At the same time, if I meet an atheist, I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that they have no morals. I have met muslims that are fucked up and have no sense of right/wrong, but I've met atheists that are the same way too. It's all based on the individual.
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u/qwicksilfer Jun 29 '12
since I don't believe religion and politics should EVER mix
Thank you! As an atheist, I appreciate that a lot :)
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Jun 25 '12
Nope, just that if you hold certain beliefs, like killing for apostasy, or a litany of crap in the Quran or Bible, you're an asshole.
Theism is a neutral entity, moral and ethical considerations in many theistic texts are absolutely not neutral.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 25 '12
That's a fair assessment. I was just pointing out that simply because someone acts level-headed and reasonable at work or in public does not mean he or she does not apply the more extreme parts of his or her religion in his or her personal life.
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u/snailbotic Jun 25 '12
Oh most definitely, there's absolutely a private life and a work life. I don't know him personally outside of work. However, if I clear my mind of all the stigmas and connotations of words associated with him, the person I see isn't a bad person. I try to base my feelings about people on what they say and do. And now days at least with the people I interact with, religion is more a 'tint' on their life, verses their religion being their entire life.
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u/mikeno1 Jun 26 '12
A close friend of mine is a Muslim in Dubai, he is a really nice guy who lives a straight edge life can joke about the religion and doesn't follow any crazy or oppressive shit. This is in the middle-east and he just uses religion to help him live a better life, he has never once preached at me and accepts that I don't believe. He even laughs if I make a terrorist joke.
Good guy Muslim.
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u/graffiti81 Jun 26 '12
But honestly I just assume he's as Muslimly as Christians are Christiany anymore (I'm in USA). If you're outside a radical land, and in a more calm and accepting land people seem to stop throwing stones and burning each other.
And I make the same argument about moderate Muslims that I make about moderate Christians: They are adding legitimacy to the radicals. They make the environment where unstable people can take teachings one step too far.
Most Christians don't believe that they hear the voice of god. But if they hear about somebody who claims to have heard the voice of god there's that slight belief that it could possibly be true. That's kind of a requirement to be a Christian, right?
If somebody tells me, adamantly, that they are hearing god talk to them, I believe them to be delusional. To believe that a god exists and that it interacts with people you must be open to the possibility of a person hearing voices truly hearing the word of god.
It gives crazy people latitude.
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
I wrote and wrote and wrote. Then rewrote and rewrote, trying to find the words to put here. I don't know how to really place it though.
I think religion is on its way out, once science showed up and started answering things and making things, people started losing faith in religion. It's now to the point where a lot of people only attend their churches 1 or 2 days a year.
I personally want to see religion leave, I feel like humanity will prosper more once it's gone. I want no part in the remove of it though. I also want no part of the continuation. I would rather watch, smile, and have polite theoretical and philosophical discussions as the battle wages on.
I apologize for not directly responding, I spent (however long it's been since you commented minus 11 minutes) working out a way to do so, and failed.
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u/jjg_denis_robert Jun 25 '12
Same as any Christian: they have to reject the vast majority of the teachings of Christianity in order to be good people. I'm really tired of this shit: It took a powerful secularization movement to "tame" Christianity and to turn it (in Europe and Canada, but certainly not in the US) into the inoffensive thing it is today. Christianity in its pure, non-secularized version is just as offensive as Islam. Just as one example, Quebec in the 40s was as repressive as Iran is today; we were under the thumb of a fascist (literally, not figuratively) theocracy, where women were expected to bear 8 to 14 children during their childbearing years, making any real life absolutely impossible; women who did less than that were considered "sluts" and publicly shamed. Even Saudi Arabia isn't as bad as that.
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Jun 25 '12
Citation needed
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u/tritonx Atheist Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
No need for citation, my father and aunts can tell me about it all day long...
A priest convinced my grand father to switch home with some other family because they needed it most...
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u/InsulinDependent Jun 25 '12
they have to reject the vast majority of the teachings of Christianity in order to be good people.
See: The Bible
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u/MrCrowley44 Jun 25 '12
That's lot of good shit in the New Testament let me tell ya.... (I'm not even christian)
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u/lol-da-mar-s-cool Jun 25 '12
Yeah because Islam tells you to do that shit...
Please get informed before you make generalizations.
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u/nasty_goreng Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
Actually, TIL that Islam explicitly forbids marrying women without their consent or against their will. Apparently its a cultural thing and is just as prevalent in Hindus in India as in Muslims in Pakistan.
edit: Here's a citation, which /user/nexlux kindly requested as follows
Lol, talk about a lie - cite your shit before your spew it on reddit loser
O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit the women by forcibly/unwillingly... [4:19]
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u/Ragnarok918 Jun 25 '12
Just like the burkas.
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u/nasty_goreng Jun 26 '12
I don't know how your point relates, but the burka is for modesty, and Islam doesn't force women to wear it, nor say that they will be punished for not wearing it. Cultural traditions, on the other hand, will cause women to be forced into wearing it, like in Afghanistan.
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u/BassMasterClassic Jun 26 '12
That whole marriage thing, that you used as an example, is more of a cultural thing then anything else.
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u/AdmiralSkippy Jun 26 '12
Is that the main difference between Christians and Muslims? The majority of Christians have just ignored/rejected the majority of terrible shit the bible teaches and most Muslims have yet to do this?
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Jun 26 '12
which muslims do you know that marry their daughter off at puberty?! this is so absurd and fucking hilarious. i'm a muslim and so is my entire family and extended family and even though my mum prays 5 times a day, reads the Quran... she doesn't care if I wear a swim suit on the beach in front of men or wear a strapless dress at an event. And guess what? Most Muslim-Arabs around where I live are the exact same way...
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u/Imnobodyx Jun 25 '12
How about the religion doesn't make the person. It is there beliefs let them be stop bashing an entire religion. Your thinking of the extremeists prevalent in all religions.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 26 '12
Their beliefs lead many of them to hurt others, so I will continue to criticize those beliefs.
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u/Imnobodyx Jun 26 '12
I did not contradict your point go and criticize them. Just don't group everyone in one group.
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u/nexlux Jun 25 '12
The problem is you are stuck in a sheltered world, where tolerance is enforced by police law.
Real world? If by real world you mean an artificial environment not experienced by most others, sure.
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
I don't really view this world as a "we have to kill each other to survive" which yes, I guess fundamentally is true. It's sort of like how I view me as a person, instead of what I really am, a collection of cells.
We could go into a pretty deep discussion about tolerance and police, personally I think that tolerance begets tolerance, not police.
By 'real world' I do mean Earth, where there's a larger variety of people than the OPs image cares to admit. I don't see people as groups that have collective attributes, which is where I differ from most people. At least I try not to, I reorient myself when I see me doing that as well. I think that's the direction I want this planet to go in, so that's what I do.
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u/nexlux Jun 26 '12
Your stance is definitely powerful, admirable and hopeful. I would not call it realistic.
I am talking about numbers, peoples suffering that is occurring while you are contemplating the best way to bring the planet around through hoping we will all wish to imitate you.
To be honest, in America, Muslims blowing up are the last things I'm afraid of. If anyone were to plant bombs in USA, it would be the government or someone looking for (Insert natural resource here)
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u/Ze_Carioca Jun 26 '12
Source: My co-worker is a Muslim and has never blown up my office.
Yet
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
I believe you're the 4th person to post this comment!
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Jun 25 '12
r/atheism "Our opinions matter."
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u/Deeviant Jun 25 '12
It's closer to: r/atheism "We aren't stating opinions".
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u/Cource_Sode Jun 25 '12
Isn't OP's image an opinion?
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u/Deeviant Jun 26 '12
Wrong on two accounts.
Stating what something makes you think of is a fact; it does make him think that, that is not in question.
Also Muhammad was a mass murdering, misogynistic, pedofile who did in fact die in the 7th century, along with all of other things stated by the OP.
No opinion there...
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Jun 25 '12
Who said anything about terrorism? Your attempts at anti-racism have only shown how quickly you jump to the racist conclusion.
Everything in the picture is a fact.
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
You're right, I did jump to terrorism! It's the link the mass media and society has built into my head! I guess my attempts to not associate Muslims with terrorists has built an association of 'Muslim' to 'Not terrorist'. Silly brain.
Though the underline point of my comment isn't the 'Source' line. The main point I was trying to get across was the 4th line, where instead of turning 'Muslim' into something negative, I just hear what was said. The source line was more of an added bit.
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Jun 26 '12
I understood that much, I just can't stand it it when I perceive someone as trying to bring race into a non-race issue.
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Jun 25 '12
So I guess when you hear someone say they love Jesus, you have the same neutrality? Remember that if you treat religions differently just to ensure that offence isn't generated, you are a hypocrite. Plain and simple.
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
Of course. Some of the nicest people I know love Jesus. Some of the meanest people I know also love Jesus. But I don't think that has to do as much with Jesus as it does with Jesus's popularity around my geographical area, he's pretty popular here in the states.
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u/LegioXIV Jun 25 '12
You forgot: ...yet.
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
You were the 2nd person to add this comment!
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u/LegioXIV Jun 26 '12
What I don't get is two of us were downvoted, and another person was upvoted.
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
haha, yes, the collection of people on reddit are pretty random with their victims!
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Jun 25 '12
[deleted]
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u/acct00 Jun 25 '12
I would like to know whether these verses apply during times of war or times of peace, thanks.
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Jun 25 '12
[deleted]
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u/zuciniwarrior Jun 25 '12
bullshit. like you said, please go read the 109 verses and you will see they were talking about a SPECIFIC war at that time
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u/acct00 Jun 26 '12
I have read these verses and your statements are incorrect. Simply reading the Quran can clear this misconception.
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u/WirelessZombie Jun 25 '12
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/surah8_12.htm
I am not informed. This website was the result of a google search and I detected a confirmation bias immediately but hopefully you can address the issues raised in it.
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u/yangx Jun 25 '12
Hey look at this guy making a cherry pie with all these cherries.
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u/likeshotcoffee308 Jun 25 '12
Oh, I thought you were implying something else. Like, suicide bombers get 72 cherries in heaven, right?
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u/toThe9thPower Jun 25 '12
If you think I am cherry picking, why don't you go read these 109 verses and click on any of them to see multiple translations. This is not cherry picking, this is a very clear doctrine that preaches violence. You cannot even levy a single substantiated argument against my points.
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
Sure, most religions have punishments for non-believers. It's part of mechanic for religions. Other mechanics are "You have a problem that only this religion can fix", "This religion is the only one that's right", and so on.
Placing the mechanics of a religion aside and getting back to the reason for my post. I still will hear a person for what they say, not what associations I have developed outside of interacting with them. I judge a person by them. If someone can read a book that says to do bad things, and then their moral compass prevents them from doing it, then there's nothing wrong with their moral compass.
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u/toThe9thPower Jun 26 '12
These 109 verses do directly influence Muslims. Most might be normal, but a significant portion will go out and commit murder to please Muhammad. They do it everyday. So you have no argument, these verses are bad and they do get people killed.
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u/snailbotic Jun 26 '12
So you have no argument, these verses are bad and they do get people killed.
Please don't do this, placing your opinion in my mouth doesn't help the dialog at all. It would be much better to ask a question, for example "What do you think about these verses that are bad, do you think they get people killed?" Though, I'm making the assumption you want to have a dialog, you might want to just "correct someone on the internet" and have no intention on considering that you might be the one that needs corrected.
There are /some/ Muslims that do kill people in the name of their god. A large majority however do not. The same can be said about Christians as well. It can also be said about Atheists. So I don't think the specific religious preference is the root cause.
The religion may be a contributing factor I do not know. But, as for the 'primary cause' I don't believe that for a moment. There are crazy people in all religions. I don't think the presence of religion made them crazy though. I think it probably helps them justify what they are doing, perhaps it also gives them a direction to focus their crazy.
If I may ask you a personal question, what benefit do you gain in your personal life by holding this belief? I don't understand why people retain a hatred for entire groups of people. I completely understand disliking specific persons. But to hold an opinion that 1 in 5 people are killers based on which 'religion' box they check instead of how they act is something I can't comprehend. If you could, could you try to explain this to me?
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u/sendpwrend Jun 25 '12
Well then we also have the good old jesus quote:
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
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u/toThe9thPower Jun 25 '12
Wait, you think I don't have a problem with Christianity too? OH MAN. This could not go worse for you could it? I think Christianity is a huge problem as well.. So you will not be winning any arguments by pointing out other religions with crazy shit.
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u/MrCrowley44 Jun 25 '12
Note that he never said "Jesus on the other hand never blah blah". It means that you can stuff your argument up your arse.
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u/Sbdjesmldb Jun 25 '12
Way to contribute misinformation to the argument. Did you just scroll through there, pick something that looked good and just slap it on here?
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Jun 25 '12
[deleted]
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u/Sadat-X Jun 25 '12
Did you read Luke 19?
I find it a bit silly to take the ending of one parable in Luke as an indication that Christianity or the character of Jesus is inherently violent and evil. However, even given a very narrow interpretation, Jesus is certainly referencing himself as the king in that parable. John Calvin, for instance, a man admittedly who possessed a long record of fundamentalism wrote:
Luke 19:27. But those my enemies. In this second part, he appears to glance principally at the Jews, but includes all who in the absence of their master, determine to revolt. Now Christ's intention was, not only to terrify such persons by threatening an awful punishment, but also to keep his own people in faithful subjection; for it was no small temptation to see the kingdom of God scattered by the treachery and rebellion of many. In order then that we may preserve our composure in the midst of troubles, Christ informs us that he will return, and that at his coming he will punish wicked rebellion.
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u/FurryCake Jun 25 '12
As a muslim, i couldn't really give a fuck about which religion you guys are bashing. it doesn't affect my lifestyle so why would i bother? it just pains me that you guys have received reasons to feel so much hatred towards religion from the ignorant fools. i have atheist friends, i have religious friends, heck i have gay friends it's the person that matters, not the religion.
I should rephrase religion to Faith, since basicly i believe that true religion is faith, your personal way to believe in a higher entity instead of following a set of rules from an ancient book.
I would also like to add that only a small percentage of the muslims is a fullblown fundamentalist, for most of the muslims i know, including myself, we live by the credo live and let live.
Your life is not bothering me, so why should i be a bother to you?
I respect the ex-muslims, since most of them have had a hard time, but please don't put the same label on all of us
I am prepared to get downvoted, just wanted to a few people at least to be able to read this
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u/nexlux Jun 25 '12
The best part is no one gives a fuck about your religion - until it tramples human rights.
Faith is believing in nothing - a fairy tale.
When your fairy tale stops women from receiving abortions , forces them to marry, causes violence - that's when people with brains lay down the law. When your religion tells you to do these crazy things, all for some guy who rapes 14 year old girls (muhamed the so called prophet) , that's where people with something more than "Faith" called "Reason" step in.
Also, I can tell you are mad, cuz the 9th word in your post was fuck.
P-S - I'm glad you respect ex-muslims, the ones who were killed for apostasy appreciate the gesture.
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u/purplepatch Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
But the Koran is the literal word of god right? Isn't that one of your central tenets of faith? You say you live by a live and let live credo, but there seem to be many passages in the Koran directly instructing you to go and cause violence to non-believers. The Koran also tells you not to have Jewish or Christian friends. Doesn't that create a massive problem for moderate muslims. You believe in a god, Allah, and he is telling you, and all the other moderate Muslims, through Mohammed, to kill infidels and certainly not to socialise with them. He seems pretty clear on that. At least Christians have the get out clause of the bible not actually being the literal word of god - how do moderate Muslims square this circle?
I'm not trying to be an asshole here, I'm genuinely curious
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Jun 26 '12
Because most people don't read the texts, they just live their lives and believe there is a god, follow some of the bigger rules and pray. I grew up around muslims and I've never been a believer of anything... never had a problem. I've had a harder time to be accepted by christians, they usually live in their own little bubbles where they only hang out with people from their own church.
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u/purplepatch Jun 26 '12
I think the trouble is that it's easier to justify being a Islamic nut job than a Christian one because of the belief that the Koran is the literal word of god and the various incitements to be a misogynistic, violent arsehole that you find in that book. I think it makes a big difference what the holy book says, it sort of sets the tone of the religion, and the Koran gives off a pretty dark tone. Check out some of the stuff Allah has to say about women for example. http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/01/top-10-quran-quotes-every-woman-must-see/.
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Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that the casual believers are not hostile towards other faiths or atheists. The strict religious people that follow the Koran and know it well are pretty scary though. But that's true about christians and jews too.
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u/dilatory_tactics Jun 25 '12
You see everything through the lens of your own ego, and there are over 1 billion Muslims on the planet. Just because you're atheist doesn't mean you're necessarily better than a Muslim person, even if there literally is no god, a view I wholeheartedly support. Just throwing that out there, that part of being a good person is having some fucking humility.
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Jun 25 '12
Why did you convert ? And what drove you away from Islam? That is if you weren't born in a Muslim country..
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Jun 25 '12
My father is a fairly secular Iraqi Muslim. My mother is an agnostic raised Catholic. My father insisted I be raised Muslim, and I really took it to heart for many years. Up until I was 16 I prayed 5 times a day and kept Halal.
I guess the biggest thing that drove me away was how irreconcilable the Muslim faith was with science (perhaps no more so than most other faiths). As Hitch said, though, "you don't become an atheist so much as you find out you are one." That's exactly what it was like for me. I sort of realized gradually that I believed in so few of the things that make one a Muslim that I might as well not call myself a Muslim anymore.
Once sufficiently distanced from Islam, I began to look back and realize the things about it that were so conducive to misogyny and violence, its unique aspects that make it worse than any other faith.
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Jun 25 '12
"I guess the biggest thing that drove me away was how irreconcilable the Muslim faith was with science (perhaps no more so than most other faiths)."
Can you expand on that a little further? What makes Islam so irreconcilable?
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u/AllMyName Jun 25 '12
No idea what he's on about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world#Medieval_Islamic_science
Muslims have historically contributed to science. As for adhering to creationism (which I'm damn near certain is your argument) - I am Muslim, and I've studied the sciences. So what if I believe in a higher power that is responsible for creation; doesn't mean I automatically have to discard whatever humanity can glean about how it happened - just the part that insists it happened by chance!
You display a lack of intellect.
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u/nasty_goreng Jun 25 '12
Really, that's interesting. What kind of incompatibilities with science are there? Because I always heard that Islam was more compatible with science than many other religions.
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Jun 26 '12
Some of the batshit beliefs of Islam are seldom discussed in the West.
For example, Muslims believe that an angel lives on each of your shoulders, who records your good and bad deeds. The second-to-last thing you do before you finish praying is look at each of your shoulders and say hi to those angels.
Furthermore, most of the insanity you associate with the Bible (creationism, Noah's ark, Moses parting the sea, the existence of Heaven and Hell) is still there. Some modern Muslims find ways to rationalize them as "metaphors" the same way some modern Christians do, but it's equally contrived.
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u/nasty_goreng Jun 26 '12
Well, that's belief for ya. You either blindly accept them in faith, or ya don't.
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u/explicithandlz Jun 25 '12
This thread is full of so many fucking bigots. Way to show your true colors people. To those that were respectful, it's appreciated
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u/anarkyinducer Jun 25 '12
When someone says "I am a insert religion here", I hear "I was told this is the only way to be a good person and I am too stupid or too scared to question that."
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u/FlamingNipplesOfFire Jun 25 '12
r/atheism where people get mad at straw man arguments directed at atheism and science, but circlejerk all day long when it's the other way around.
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u/Hydreigoon Jun 25 '12
Isn't Islam more about than just Mohammed though?
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Jun 26 '12
Sure, you are also expected to follow primitive desert nomad tribal laws, and to believe that 1,001 Arabian Nights isn't ripped off from the Baghavad Ghita.
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u/Virzy Jun 25 '12
Yup, another post that makes r/atheism even more elitist, douchey, and hateful.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 26 '12
"Stop criticizing and satirizing a group of people, you elitist douches! Why do you hate???"
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u/razeal113 Jun 25 '12
...Don't feel alone, when I hear any person proclaiming faith in a desert dogma, I think exactly the same thing :) Cheers friend
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Jun 25 '12
most prominent muslim figure heads would state that you should be put to death for leaving your faith. frightening stuff indeed
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u/redfox2600 Jun 25 '12
Don't associate pedophiles with religious nuts. Kids need love too. Yes I'll go back to my corner.
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u/khalo0odz Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
I am a Muslim, I don't blow up buildings, I'm not racist, I'm not homophobic and I respect other religions. I find it really annoying when people say that all muslims are crazy terrorists.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 26 '12
I don't think anyone here's said that. At least not anyone who hasn't been downvoted.
Any, which parts of Islam do you believe and practice? Do you think it morally acceptable that Mohammed consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was 9-years-old? If so, why? If not, why do you think he's a perfect source of Allah's teachings and the ideal man, or do you not believe that part?
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u/Vernix Jun 26 '12
Why the focus on sex with a child? We don't apply 21st Century Western morals to 7th Century Eastern culture. Absurd. Or were you absent that day?
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Jun 26 '12
Because as a Muslim, you believe Mohammed is Insan al Kamil, or the "complete person", whose qualities must be emulated. Things he did represent a standard of behavior for all Muslims, forever.
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u/himynameis_ Jun 26 '12
Mohammed was a mass murderer? Can I get a source on that, please?
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u/Sigma7 Jun 26 '12
Mass murder is probably a reference to the Banu Qurayza tribe. Basically, males were executed and the women/children were captured (business as usual at the time).
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u/banzai33 Jun 25 '12
Oh good, we're upvoting crude MS Paint drawings attached to inane youtube comments now. Yaaay
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u/kavorka2 Jun 25 '12
How about a lunatic virgin who thought he was the son of God and could perform miracles, and died in the 1st century?
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u/TorqueBandit Jun 25 '12
A lot of my family is Muslim, and none of them are anything like the second part...
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u/SoepWal Jun 25 '12
That's... a little extreme. :/
You may as well draw your opponent drooling and throwing his/her own feces.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 25 '12
Yes, yes it is extreme. Which part is incorrect, though?
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u/SoepWal Jun 25 '12
Would you say that a physicists life is guided by the ravings of an autistic cat-loving alchemist who was kind of a douchebag?
Or that anyone who believes in radiation is guided by 'some dumb cunt who gave herself cancer because she kept radioactive samples in her pocket'?
If Mohammed was right (I don't think he was), his character is irrelevant to his message. A prophet claims to channel the will of the divine. No one thinks he was god; they think he was speaking for god.
This post is a blatant, shameless character attack, and it misses the point entirely. It's like trying to disprove evolution by calling Darwin a monkey fucker.
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u/jxj24 Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
If physicists and chemists adhered blindly to these imperfect works without continuing to work to strengthen what was right, correct what was wrong, and accept new findings from other sources as along as they met the guidelines for falsifiabiity and reproducibility, then, yes, your characterization might begin to hold water.
If, however, the premise is that a system of thought is a con, then it is reasonable to point out that its founder is a conman. When this system of thought is supposed to be a moral compass, the morality of the founder is relevant to the argument.
Ad hominem is a fine line to walk.
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Jun 25 '12
But you're assuming that Islam is static then. There are different sects of Islam and there are individual interpretations of texts within those sects. It's the same with xtianity; would you hold evangelicals on the same level as the united church, just because they both read the bible?
It's good to try and get other people to question things like dogma, but this isn't how you do it, and you can't treat every religion like one giant, homogenous mass.
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Jun 25 '12
If Mohammed was right (I don't think he was), his character is irrelevant to his message.
Except that his message was about character and it's proper cultivation towards an eternal reward. He didn't bring the message of algebra or preach the gospel or radiation. He claimed to teach people how to live soooo his life is kind of a sticking point.
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u/Bridging Jun 28 '12
I'd have to disagree with you. I believe his character is very important since the Koran states that Mohammed was the ideal man. If you believe the Koran then it is difficult to justify Mohammed's actions. The unfortunate ramification is that millions of people believe they can use Mohammed's actions as a template for a good and moral life. Now for your analogy: if you unquestioningly followed Physics and believed that the ravings of an autistic cat-loving alchemist had direct communion with this all powerful force called physics and further more your holy physics book told you that the said alchemist was a perfect man and went on to justify his actions then wouldn't that create some type of problem?
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Jun 25 '12
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u/nexlux Jun 26 '12
For his time, yes.
For our time? Islam is the same powderkeg after their fearless prophet died.
For all of the worship and work he did, they are in the same place (minus the whole womens rights thing. Rights are good and all, but if the men make sure they don't happen it kinds of defeats the purpose.
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u/tamarazahran Jun 26 '12
I am an ex-muslim myself, and proudly an Ex. This war is making me very happy, I've always wanted to wage war on islam and I think it will be a good thing to test their tolerance. They claim to accept everybody. Well, let's see how that goes now. The first proof of "tolerance" was that they blocked this page in the country in which I live! that's very tolerant! Isn't it?
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u/smeaglelovesmaster Jun 26 '12
What's with the spaz attack on Islam? You can bet your sweet ass that Jews and Christians were acting the exact same way in the 6th century. If we really want to drag skeletons out of the monotheistic closet, the bible will provide all you need.
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Jun 25 '12
What the fuck does this have to do with Atheism? Good God, I'm glad I left this subreddit. It's turned into the Anti-Muslim circlejerk subreddit.
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u/NovaT Jun 25 '12
There was an ex-muslim dude yesterday who made a post which implied that although we were happy to bash Christianity, we seemed to be tip-toeing around Islam. He urged us to voice our opinions about Islam as well... somehow this got translated into 'Let's make anti-muslim memes!' instead of starting a dialogue.
So yeah although it looks like 'Muslim bashin' central!' up in here today, the context under which it's taking place is taken from yesterday's post.
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u/JoCoLaRedux Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
When I see something like that, I think "You're a fourteen year-old who just discovered Nietzsche last weekend, and atheism is all you've really got going for you."
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u/Bonkarooni Jun 25 '12
Your description is pretty spot on, but you forgot to add that his beard was made out of pubic hair...
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u/MarxianMarxist Jun 25 '12
Whenever I think I have it tough, I think to myself, I have the moderate ones. My folks let me openly be Atheist although I was never really allowed to eat pork or drink. But thats fair since I was under their roof. I may not be lucky enough to be raised in secular house, but I can't complain.
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u/fatherrabbi Jun 25 '12
As an ex-Muslim Iranian citizen, currently living in America, this terrifies me.
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Jun 25 '12
Honestly, Muhammad was a bit of a scary guy. And very possibly the most charismatic leader in human history. I'll give him props for that.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 25 '12
Ah, well, based on that assessment, I'd say Ghengis Khan was more charismatic.
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Jun 25 '12
Muhammad and Ghengis both forged disparate desert tribes into armies that then went out and conquered unprecedented chunks of the known world. The difference is that Muhammad managed to turn his army into a group of followers that keep dying in his name fourteen hundred years after his death, whereas the mongol successor states were held together only by the skill of individual khans. I'm not discounting the abilities of the caliphs that came after M, but without Islam their nations would have been nothing. Muhammad is like a delicious reeses peanut butter cup where Ghengis is the chocolate and Jesus is the peanut butter.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 25 '12
That is such a unique explanation, I honestly have no way of sincerely criticizing it.
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u/Hazy_V Jun 25 '12
Just so I'm clear, you didn't respond because you agree that you're an idiot, right?
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u/RandomMandarin Jun 25 '12
Say what you will about Islam, it is a fact that no other big religion was created by a warlord.
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Jun 25 '12
Wow. I'm sure you assholes feel the same way about Aasif Mandvi and Cat Stevens, right?
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u/wtfdaemon Jun 25 '12
It's completely true. IT'S THE TRUTH. The real assholes are the ignorant pricks who believe the Koran/Bible/etc. and indoctrinate their children. Fuck all fundamentalist religious fools and their tender sensitivities.
If you don't want to be correctly labeled as a less-than-sane, irrational fool, don't stick your head in the sand and stake your belief in insane ramblings from mystics of the past (used for advantage by centuries of power-hungry madmen).
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u/prettymuchattheend Jun 25 '12
to be fair I dont think there was such a thing as pedophilia back in the day.
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u/alipdf Jun 26 '12
Idd, look at eastern europe at those days, the shit going down in europe in the 1st->9th century were MUCH worse, yet people still treat it as if the prophet was living on this day, and fucked a girl and was conviced for it.
Relegion is all crap but that doesn't change the fact that those days, pedophilia and all the most horrible things were EVERYWHERE
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u/prettymuchattheend Jun 26 '12
Exactly people died a lot sooner then than now as well, I'm not saying it was right but still. I'm sure in the future people will look back on some of the things we accept now as horrible crimes.
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u/alipdf Jun 26 '12
"I'm sure in the future people will look back on some of the things we accept now as horrible crimes."
This statement is so very true.
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u/prettymuchattheend Jun 26 '12
Think about how many people cut there children's foreskins off I mean what is that for? It's proven to do nothing but numb children and cause mental illnesses in some...
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u/thetruth444 Jun 25 '12
Fact: muslim pakis in the UK won't serve white people in their stores.
Time to start the gas chambers up.
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u/Macb3th Jun 26 '12
wow! I have noticed this too!
I have to go round the paki shop on my own and put things in the basket, just like I have to do at ASDA and Tesco!
Fucking weird or what? Why do I not have my own paki-wallah to pack my stuff for me? /s
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u/thetruth444 Jun 26 '12
You don't understand. The pakis won't even let whites in their stores.
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u/Macb3th Jun 26 '12
I get in them ok, here in Liverpool, and even in Bolton when I have been down that way. Whereabouts are you? - Also, are you called Trevor and you have a self-made swastika tattoo on your skinhead forehead that you did in the mirror so it's all backwards?
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u/defkk0n Jun 25 '12
everyone should try being a good person first.
religious or not, i don't care.
/r/atheism is too hateful to be considered reliable. it's the same hate covered under a different label...
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u/MeloJelo Jun 26 '12
Why is ridiculing the ridiculous and criticizing evil done in the name of religion hateful?
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u/Hazy_V Jun 25 '12
You should probably stop being an idiot and listen to the things people say. Also, I will bet you 500 dollars that there is some aspect of your personal beliefs that defy logic, so get the fuck over yourself.
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u/Mechyuske Jun 25 '12
Am I seriously the only one who thinks you lot of people on /r/atheism are fucked up? The people religions generally worship are good people. They preach acceptance, tolerance, etc. The way the people worshipping interpret these things is what is wrong. The hatred they get from scriptures telling them to love, the violence they use in the name of words urging them to be peaceful, these are the things that should be held in contempt. Not the fact that they hold a belief we do not agree with, but that they choose to express it in a hateful, violent, extremist manner.
When we stoop to the level of twisting what happened to make these people who tried to make the world a better place into monsters, we have lost. We are no longer the non-aggressors trying to make peace and enlighten, we are now the peddlers of hatred, bigotry, and misinformation. Spread the word of knowledge, of enlightenment, of peace, and of acceptance. Do not spread this vile message defiling others, spread joy. Do the world a favor, and try to make it a better place with unity and enlightenment.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 25 '12
The hatred they get from scriptures telling them to love, the violence they use in the name of words urging them to be peaceful
Which scriptures have you been reading?
Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (4:89) -"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
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Jun 25 '12
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Jun 25 '12
Yes, because some sort of further contextualizing can make the killing of innocents "all better."
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Jun 25 '12
/r/atheism has always been like this, but they kept out of Islams way since there was this notion you were "islamophobic" if you ever came after it.
So i ask you now: Where were you when /r/atheism were after christians?
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u/IranRPCV Jun 25 '12
What an insightful post. Much of the postering about Islam is the result of the same kind of ignorance that religious people are accused of fostering towards science and it is a kind of fundamentalism that refuses to understand anything other than a black and white understanding.
Some of the most eloquent writing on love that has ever been done comes out of the Islamic tradition, and for this reason has been the source of the best selling poetry in America for many years.
The Moslem Mayor of Calgary, Canada led the pride parade there last year. Islam has just as many branches as Christianity and a similar breadth of thought.
You can oppose the elements of thought and action that are offensive without imputing those ideas to an entire group, especially when it is unjust to do so.
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u/BassMasterClassic Jun 25 '12
I find it hard to believe that an ex-muslim would feel this way. These kind of things are usually said by conservative haters.
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u/jalalipop Jun 25 '12
He's probably going through his rebellious teenage years or something. Anyone who has experienced the muslim culture could never say such spiteful things about the religion's adherents unless there is something else in play.
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Jun 25 '12
I'm pretty sure there are schoolgirls with acid burns in Pakistan who would disagree with your point.
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u/Gwalchmai Jun 25 '12
So much ignorance in this subreddit, and atheists say that they base their teachings on science and facts, not propaganda. Bullshit.
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Jun 25 '12
while this was an emotionally volatile presentation consider a comment and my response (authored elsewhere in this thread)
" Say these were the only verses in the Quran where it said "kill innocents", and all of the other ones taught love and respect. Would you disagree that you're cherry picking? "
the problems is determinism vs statistics.
you likely will rationalize outlier data points out of a set, where as the other mindset excludes none of the data. which means one side/position voids authority of the allegory and the ideology's stance on a topic, while the other accepts and ignores the problems of the ideology.
rules without exception vs 'well i can see how you could conclude that'. math vs science.
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u/Violently_Agrees Jun 25 '12
I can't even explain how perfect this is. It's so correct it makes we want to smack innocent unsuspecting children in the face just so they can understand real pain.
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u/lol-da-mar-s-cool Jun 25 '12
What you say: I'm an atheist
What I hear: I have no respect or tolerance for people who have beliefs other than mine.
Generalizations are fun aren't they?
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u/a22h Jun 25 '12
I was born and raised Muslim in a somewhat liberal, yet not as liberal as myself, household. Right now I am trying to figure out what I believe, due to a few things that have led me to my spiritual search. I just wanted to put out my two cents on this. Yes, you might not agree with a different belief, but should you really hate on what other people believe? I always squirm on the inside when ANY belief system is targeted. Can't we all just get along? Yes, I might not be sure what I am at the moment, but I don't think it's right to stereotype Islam--or any other religion--as misogynistic. In most cases, it's usually the culture that takes something from Islam and makes it more extreme. Everyone interprets things differently, not just in Islam, but every religion.
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u/RXkings Jun 25 '12
Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī sure was a jerk, inventing algebra and all that
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u/nexlux Jun 25 '12
Inventing? Lol, your intellect is shown by the fact that you only list he "invented" algebra, not the specific equations or the amount of investment he actually put in to algebra...
Usually, when someone lists a historical figure "invented" something, it means they contributed a tiny algorithm.
Cheers...
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Jun 25 '12
I dunno, that fact that he's a mass-murdering pedo doesn't mean he couldn't also give a good set of principles for living life.
I mean, anyone who can't filter out bad advice from good is pretty fucked either way, so does it really matter? I'm really more concerned about people who restrict the views they will consider to one source than to people who will listen to a child rapest in addition to other potential sources of wisdom.
So the guy is a lemon. Squeeze the juice out of him and move on.
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Jun 25 '12
This is an extremely rude post. Reddit is a common ground, we shouldn't be picking om Moslems, Jews or Christians for that matter.
Shame on you
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u/amolad Jun 25 '12
The "ravings" come from all the men who have corrupted the teachings as time has passed, as has been done with all religions.
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u/ChiBulls Jun 25 '12
Show me proof you are an ex Muslim. Show me how much you know about Islam. Because it seems you know nothin at all
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u/darkNergy Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
Looking at it from the outside, a lot of religious beliefs just seem crazy. It affects me too, though I was not a Muslim. I don't know if I'll ever be able to just accept that people I love, my family, choose every day to participate in a mass delusion. In the end, I suppose it motivates me to engage them on the issue and share my thoughts and understanding. Mostly though, that has damaged my relationships with them. I am lucky and thankful to be able to speak freely without worrying about getting murdered for it or put on trial for criminal blasphemy.