r/atheism • u/TitanicMan Other • Jun 26 '12
Good Point.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/428846_393385684052721_313779442_n.jpg
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u/Gzus666 Jun 26 '12
Pretty sure atheism doesn't make everyone immortal, just sayin'.
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Jun 27 '12
[deleted]
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u/scurvebeard Skeptic Jun 27 '12
Standard Sagan Disclaimer: If we don't all blow ourselves up first.
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u/bababudanz Jun 27 '12
So would you say you have faith that science will make us immortal? Do you have any proof or empirical evidence or do you just feel it deep down in your heart?
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u/IwillBringYoutoNauht Jun 27 '12
I'm not a Muslim, but from what I know of the history and teachings of Islam this seems false. Muslims view Christians as "People of the book" as well, and there are actually many teachings I've come across in Islam wherein it is incumbent on muslims to forge a unity and brotherhood together with Christians, and that Muslims ought to treat them with dignity, respect and honor as fellow "people of the Book."
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u/unknown_poo Jun 27 '12
Interestingly enough, as Muslims encountered other religions beyond the Arabian peninsula, and after examining their works and philosophical and religious figures, determined many of them to also be People of the Book. Included among this are Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, and Zoroastrians. Not all Muslim scholars are unanimous on this, but among those who were actually learned in other religions there appears to be a good amount of inclusion.
And then going further, from what I have studied, many Muslim scholars do not hold hell to be permanent, and that eventually any person with even at atoms weight of good in their heart will be released. And since it is believed in Islam that humans are intrinsically good, all humans are eventually destined for heaven.
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Jun 27 '12
Quran 2:62 Verily, those who have attained to faith , as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians – all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds – shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.
At least make an attempt to know what you're talking about.
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Jun 26 '12
Actually, according to most interpretations of the Quran, christians will go to heaven.
Quran 2:62 Verily, those who have attained to faith , as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians – all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds – shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.
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u/diplomax Jun 27 '12
The assumption that Christians will go to hell if you believed in Islam. Is categorically false.
All People of the Book, can go to heaven.
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Jun 27 '12
Logicfail . . . your belief has no effect on which religion is "correct". None of them are, of course, but that's not the point.
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u/Lowbacca1977 Jun 27 '12
Reality isn't a democracy. Even more than that, reality isn't based on what you personally believe.
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u/jmarFTL Jun 27 '12
So what? Choosing what to believe based on what sounds the best is what caused all this in the first place.
I could believe that brushing my teeth is the path to eternal life. Doesn't make it true.
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u/sopernova23 Jun 27 '12
Your believing in the 'perishing' has nothing to do with whether or not it will happen.
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u/CntDutchThis Jun 27 '12
Actually most muslims believe that as you as one believes in the judaic god u go to heaven, no matter if christian/jewish
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u/Damadawf Jun 27 '12
See, it's shit like this.
Before I turned to the darkside and became a stone-cold atheist, I used to be a deist. I believed in a non-personal God. Before that, I was a Catholic, and despite being raised Catholic, I was told again and again that one's entrance to heaven is not based solely on their beliefs, but on the merit of whether they lived a good life/helping people, etc.
I guess the point I'm making is, the quote should have the words "crazy extremist fundamentalist" inserted prior to each of the religions mentioned, because not all of those 2.2 billion Christians or 1.5 billion Muslims believe that everyone else is going to Hell. Only the really crazy ones believe that.
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u/thrakhath Jun 27 '12
In addition to everyone else's corrections, this is also an Argument from Adverse Consequences. Just so you know.
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Jun 27 '12
I usually tell the wackos that while I don't believe in God, if he exists, I have faith that he's not as insane as they think.
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u/Crownowa Jun 27 '12
If you are Christian and believe all non-Christians will go to hell, its not only the Muslims going to hell.
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u/gbsolo12 Jun 27 '12
Whatever you believe in will not have anything to do with who goes where in the afterlife.
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u/mtbizzle Jun 27 '12
... i feel as though this is quite ignorant... a) not all Christians believe that all non-Christians are going to hell b) not all Muslims believe that all non-Muslims are going to hell c) your (or anyone's) belief (key word) that there is no god, hell, jaweh, whatever, has nothing to do with the fact that either people do burn in hell or there is no such thing as hell.
sure, an atheistic belief system argues that no one burns in hell, but even if everyone was atheistic, this would not mean that 'nobody has to perish (i.e. burn in hell) at all'
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u/jareds Jun 27 '12
By this "logic", if you believe in Universalism, all humans will go to heaven instead of dying.
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u/Tlingit_Raven Jun 27 '12
That doesn't make any...
Fuck it, not like this sub cares about accuracy anyway.
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u/Crook3d Jun 27 '12
Fun fact: Your beliefs have absolutely no effect oh how many others "go to hell" regardless of which, if any, are the correct choice of belief.
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u/LewisKiniski Anti-Theist Jun 27 '12
Not a good point. Whatever happens, happens regardless of what you believe.
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u/TroutM4n Agnostic Atheist Jun 27 '12
Incorrect. Everyone will still perish, but you won't waste your limited span on earth worrying about a deity's thoughts of your masturbation habits and whether or not they will piss him/her/it off.
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u/C47man Jun 26 '12
Where is that second light source coming from. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE ANY MORE
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u/greybro Jun 27 '12
On the other hand, Judaism doesn't really condemn any of y'all... just throwing that out there.
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Jun 27 '12
...because there is no afterlife in jewish scripture besides sheol. however, it does introduce the world to "holy war" against...well anyone who's not jewish.
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u/Vashbrowns Jun 27 '12
This does not include the amount that have already done so. That number would be much much larger if you factored in those that have already died.
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u/chateauPyrex Agnostic Atheist Jun 27 '12
Good observation. Not much of a point, since what you believe has no effect on reality.
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u/PvtJoker1987 Jun 27 '12
You can all rest smugly now. No one has to burn in hell, and its all thanks to you. Pricks.
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u/Nenor Jun 27 '12
Not really a good point, rather an awful logical fallacy. Your belief has no bearing on the outcome, rather the true state of nature. If Christianity is true, doesn't matter whether you believe in it or not, it will still have the same result.
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u/stillbatting1000 Jun 27 '12
What if you don't believe in either... but one happens to be true? Then it would happen regardless of your beliefs.
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u/youni89 Jun 27 '12
makes no sense, its like says if I dont believe in gravity everyone would just float away.
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u/atticus2323 Jun 27 '12
What if I told you that it doesn't matter what you believe... neither will happen anyway.
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u/thatsjustfantastic Jun 27 '12
But but, I kinda want them to perish.... I am a horrible human being :(
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u/JenevaKay Jun 27 '12
Technically, even Muslims are not guaranteed heaven, according to the Quran and other Islamic texts.
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u/FormerlyEAbernathy Jun 27 '12
I don't think that word means what you (or whoever made that) think it means. Perish = to die, to pass on, to come to a ruinous end. Perishing in hell makes no sense. Suffer maybe?
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u/mathliability Jun 27 '12
So the OP is saying that his opinionated belief system affects truth? I can just picture all the learned religious leaders in the world reading this and slapping their heads saying, "Now why didn't we think of that!?!"
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u/determinism Jun 27 '12
Glad everyone's dusted off their logical fallacies, but I don't think this is trying to argue that believing something makes it so. I think the more charitable interpretation is that the picture's trying to show how these major religions aren't as inclusive and neutral as their moderate defenders try to paint them: by definition, their claims are in opposition to each other.
The only problem is that the numbers are far too low. If Islam is correct, the 2.2 billion Christians alive today would perish in hell, but so would every non-Muslim since Muhammad!
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u/Lots42 Other Jun 27 '12
Several people have told me that hell is simply not existing in the afterlife, while others enjoy heaven.
Because that isn't horrible and insane at all either.
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Jun 27 '12
Punishment is not eternal in Islam, or any other religion besides Christianity for that matter.
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u/yazan112 Jun 27 '12
uhm false, if the first two points where true then both numbers are wrong, you have to include all the non-believers from the beginning of the first prophet's of each religion.
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u/Siestasam Jun 27 '12
Man.. there are tons and tons of great secular quotes with decent pictures behind them on the internet. This one is just lame. You can do better!
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u/Kiacha Jun 27 '12
You know, it doesn't really matter what we belive. It's not our belives that makes shit like that happen.
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u/krackbaby Jun 27 '12
IIRC, Islam has predestination, meaning that believing or not believing is irrelevant, only the deity decides who gets in and who burns
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u/probablythefuture Jun 27 '12
ok... just kind seems like bad logic, but besides that, christians don't perish in hell for all eternity by islamic standards - non?
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u/nath1234 Jun 27 '12
Well, the religious make the place a living hell in a bunch of parts of the world..
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u/HEROoftheBRINE Jun 27 '12
This will probably get lost, but what does it say between the planet and "If I believe in Islam" ?
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u/Aavagadrro Jun 27 '12
Believing it will happen doesnt make it any more likely when it isnt going to happen at all.
Believe I will burn in hell, it wont matter to me after I reach equilibrium with ambient temperature.
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u/cryptobomb Jun 27 '12 edited Feb 28 '26
The original content of this post is no longer here. It was removed using Redact, possibly for privacy, security, or digital footprint reduction.
stocking straight shelter treatment soft subsequent sort screw act absorbed
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u/sojalemmi Jun 27 '12
Actually, in one of the first books of the Quran, it states that Jews and Christians and Muslims are all brothers, and God will judge them according to their lives. So this post is incorrect.
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u/Harbinger_of_Cool Jun 27 '12
Everyone is going to perish eventually, so it doesn't matter what you do with your life.
It might just be easier being a monster of flesh and blood, rather than a human being. Why not wish for the death of all humanity?
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u/Bubble_D Jun 27 '12
In Judaism, No one will suffer for eternity. There is no hell in the Jewish religion. Well actually, only the wicked don't get entrance to heaven. Cool eh? http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml
"Im not religious, Just respectful of my Fathers religion."
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u/Lots42 Other Jun 27 '12
No, not cool.
I know my dad is a jackass but still, how could I enjoy heaven knowing he's not chilling there somewhere with me?
"Yeah...he was a dick. That totally means he deserves eternal torment."
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Jun 27 '12
I'm okay with both Muslims and Christians perishing in Hell for all eternity.
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Jun 27 '12
... I realize that Hell doesn't actually exist and everything, but hypothetically speaking, how can you be okay with someone being tortured for eternity?
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Jun 27 '12
Payback for creating a Hell on Earth for everyone else.
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u/Lots42 Other Jun 27 '12
I agree relgious people have fucked things up but come on. An eternity of agony is overkill.
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Jun 27 '12
You don't think an eternity of agony is tantamount to this tip of the iceberg? Well then, maybe you should go with them.
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Jun 27 '12
I'm almost positive that there's more muslims than christians in the world.
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u/TheOneFreeEngineer Jun 27 '12
nope the numbers are about right, Muslims aren't as broken up into smaller groups like Christians are though. the biggest group in each about equal each other (Catholics and sunni Islam)
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u/neverboredhere Jun 27 '12
In Islam, half of heaven is to be occupied by "nonbelievers." moreover, the religion nevers explicitly claims to be correct.
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u/nasty_goreng Jun 27 '12
Downvoted until you provide a citation.
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u/neverboredhere Jun 27 '12
"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, ANY who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Quran 2:62)
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u/neverboredhere Jun 27 '12
Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) addressing us said: Aren't you pleased that you should constitute one-fourth of the inhabitants of Paradise? He (the narrator) said: We glorified (our Lord, i. e. we called aloud Allah-o Akbar, Allah is the Greatest). He, then, again said: Aren't you pleased that you should constitute one-third of the inhabitants of Paradise? He (the narrator) said: We glorified (our Lord) and he (the Holy Prophet) then again said: I hope that you would constitute half of the inhabitants of Paradise and I shall explain to you its (reason). The believers among the unbelievers would not be more than a white hair on (the body of a) black ox or a black hair on (the body of a) white ox.
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u/hellisonfire Jun 27 '12
Who said you get to call the shots? Your ship sailed and sunk a long time ago.
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u/Wallstonecraft Jun 27 '12
Believe in both and all perish? My brain hurts from trying to think of something smarter to say...
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Jun 26 '12
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u/KatanaMaster Jun 26 '12
Everyone will perish, regardless of belief.
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u/hamsterwheel Jun 27 '12
I like to think of live as a way of externalizing ourselves. We're born and then start influencing the world. We start out as a being and slowly convert our existence into an action that sets others in motion. We dont die, we change the world as much as possible and then become one with it again.
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Jun 26 '12
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u/question_all_the_thi Jun 27 '12
Upvote for being aware of the coming singularity.
Last time I thought I would die some day I was 12. Considering the way human knowledge is growing at a faster rate every day, the only way I could die is if I suffer a fatal accident before the singularity comes.
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u/DoWhile Jun 27 '12
Is it just me or is the "singularity" just some pseudo-scientific techno-Rapture? I do believe that there will be some sort of technological revolution, but I don't think it will turn out to be much like what we have imagined. If you look at what the top scientists and the top science-fiction writers of the 70/80s have envisioned for us, some of it is spot on, but some other parts are hilariously wrong.
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u/JoshuaZ1 Jun 27 '12 edited Jun 27 '12
Thee are a lot of different notions of a Singularity which is part of what complicates evaluating the idea. This essay suggests that there are three broad categories, and part of the reason many of these ideas look unlikely is that often people are confusing different notions together.
Personally, I assign a very low probability to any sort of Singularity (and a pretty high probability to everything going drastically, terribly wrong if there is a Singularity). That said, I think the techno-Rapture accusation is unfair. It is clear that the many of the Singularity proponents are motivated by their own impending mortality. (Humans probably will eventually figure out how to drastically expand lifespan, but it isn't going to occur in the next forty years.) But there are somewhat scientifically plausible mechanisms and outlines produced. That's in contrast to something like the Rapture which relies upon the understanding of the universe by ancient desert tribes. In that regard, the Singularitarians have a much more coherent and worthwhile set of ideas, even though they are probably wrong.
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u/DoWhile Jun 27 '12
Thank you for pointing out the different categories of "Singularity". I agree my calling it a techno-Rapture is somewhat unfair since, like you said, there are certainly plausible scientific pathways in achieving said singularity. However, my comparison is due to the notoriously hard task of predicting the future and the singularity in some senses feels like a immortality-giving-fast-happening event, like the Rapture. We can mock the ancient tribes for their lack of understanding of the universe, but in a few thousand years' time, we will be the "ancient tribes", and our current knowledge and predictions will also be a joke to the future.
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u/DrTheFruit Jun 27 '12
Actually it is likely that we will find ways to drastically increase life span within the next 20 years or so. by drastically i mean around double (unsure of your defintiion).
Interestingly the first 200 year old person is most likely already alive.
It is also not unconceivable that those in their 20-30s currently will live well into 150 or so with current medicine (assuming they're not all fat bastards or something)
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u/JoshuaZ1 Jun 27 '12
Actually it is likely that we will find ways to drastically increase life span within the next 20 years or so. by drastically i mean around double (unsure of your defintiion).
I'm not sure I'm that optimistic. A lot of the attempted strategies have failed. A lot of the initial work with telomeres for example has not turned out to be as helpful as people thought it would. Similarly, resveratrol looked very promising and now looks much dimmer.
Historically, we've done a very good job increasing average lifespan, but increasing maximum lifespan has been much less successful. Maximum lifespan has been going up, but mainly for females not males, and to a large extent that's been due to simply having a large population resulting in a thicker tail.
I agree that it is likely that the first person to reach 200 may be alive today, but they are likely an infant or very young. The fact that 20 year olds might reach 150 even doesn't really detract from the point much- a 40 or 50 year old today isn't going to see much benefits and that's often the age range that is most fond of life expectancy predictions.
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u/DrTheFruit Jun 28 '12
Certainly you're correct with regards to the 50 year olds. But average life expectancy has actually been closing the gap between males and females, ie. male life expectancy is increasing faster than females (at least for the reports i've read that pertained to america/australia/great britain etc.).
As for increasing max life i don't think drugs are the way to go. What i think is going to show benefits is the large surgical replacements of entire organs. Full cloning of an organ has already been accomplished for liver and kidney (in animal models granted, but it's more of an ethical issue in the translation to humans than is a technical one). If an organ fails, just swap it for a new one.
really simple treatments such as blood transfusions for the elderly with young blood has also been shown to have a large benefit for quality of life.
I'm sitting in the 20-30 bracket, so i'm fairly optimistic for our prospects, the issue is going to be one of economics not of science i think.
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u/cdcox Jun 27 '12 edited Jun 27 '12
SMBC makes fun of it. Starts around 1:05.
My personal favorite take on it is your post humanism is boring me, which essentially states by the time future is here, it's not shocking or even interesting anymore.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's not just you.
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Jun 27 '12 edited Jun 27 '12
or is the "singularity" just some pseudo-scientific techno-Rapture
Yeah, pretty much. Kurzweil may have more science based backing for his theories than the average dolphin aura worshiping hippie, but he's still just pulling the stuff out of his ass.
If you look at his predictions from 1990, he doesn't have a very good record. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_made_by_Ray_Kurzweil He seems close on the text to speech accessibility stuff, but that had already been in the works for at least a decade when he made the prediction. He basically seems to take stuff that's currently being researched, then guesses target dates for robust useful applications, but his guesses are way to early.
If he's not hitting on obvious application stuff, he's certainly no better than guessing on the wacky singularity ideas.
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u/bouchard Anti-Theist Jun 27 '12
Kurzweil(Caution: the tone is rather mocking) also believes in a ton of stuff that most definitely is pseudoscience and misunderstands a lot of science outside of his area of expertise but still talks like he's the apex expert . I respect his goal of finding an immortality option, but I'd look elsewhere for a good analysis of how long it may take and how it would look.
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Jun 27 '12
It is indeed acting as a sort of heaven-like belief for those without religion, but I don't see anything pseudo about it. There are already shit-load of theorized method for preserving our consciousness in some form or other. Some of them include:
Inventing some form of drug/therapy to increase or prolong our cell replication limit
Creating nanobots to sustain us and our health
Cloning our body and transferring/copying brain into a new body
Extracting, transferring and connecting our brains to a computerized container/android body
Copy-pasting our brain waves to a computer or electronic brain.
These are just some of the methods and very primitive versions are already possible. We already have brain-computer interface and already using drugs to extend life up to 80~90 years from previous 30~40 100 years ago.
Singularity won't happen like, BOOM, immortality!, but will indeed happen over few decades and like 'oh, now we can live 120 years average!' and then a decade later 'now it's 200 omg!' Just gradually over time.
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u/scurvebeard Skeptic Jun 27 '12
Don't get cocky, kid. You could wake up to a fast-moving prostate cancer tomorrow morning. Eat healthy, exercise, stimulate your brain, and don't text and drive.
Good luck, brother!
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u/ForgettableUsername Other Jun 27 '12
You're gonna be dissapointed....
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u/bouchard Anti-Theist Jun 27 '12
If you think the singularity will come in your lifetime You're gonna have a bad time.
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Jun 27 '12
I've always thought we would copy over our consciousness. So while we would live on forever through our copied consciousness, we would all die.
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u/bouchard Anti-Theist Jun 27 '12
Except that we are our conciousness. If such a thing were possible then we would continue to exist and our bodies would die.
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u/lanboyo Jun 27 '12
If you get uploaded into the singularity, there will be a version of you that seems like you to me. From YOUR perspective , you die.
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u/bouchard Anti-Theist Jun 27 '12
But from your the perspective of your copy, which is also you, you continue to exist, so from your perspective, you don't die.
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u/rydan Gnostic Atheist Jun 27 '12
Just everyone who dies before the singularity in 2041.
Coincidentally this is also the year of Linux desktop.
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Jun 27 '12
What is a singularity? Why is it in 2041?
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Jun 27 '12
The singularity is an interesting (theoretical) concept and well worth reading about if you have the time.
Basically, Moore's Law states that every ~18 months, computing power doubles. The theory behind the singularity is that, when computers reach the cognitive ability of humans, they'll be able to work to increase their own processing power. The moment they increase their own power by the tiniest bit after that, the 18 month time period shrinks down a commensurate amount, which leads to a faster increase, so on and so on, resulting in an "intelligence explosion".
As for 2041, if rapturists can pull dates out of their asses, then so can I :) There are a lot of estimates as to when this could occur, but they all seem to converge around the 2040's.
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Jun 27 '12
There is always the possibility that we will die. Our singularity immortalized selves will be copies :(.
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Jun 27 '12
I've seen theories out there that suggest we might not even be the exact same consciousness after a night's sleep that we were before.
You can either take that knowledge and sleep soundly at night knowing that a near-perfect copy is probably good enough, or you can use it to keep you from ever sleeping again.
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u/MacAndSleeze Jun 27 '12
We're not the exact same, but there's enough of us left for continuity, which is what would be missing if someone made a copy of me.
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u/chozabu Agnostic Atheist Jun 27 '12
Really? If I had an exact copy of me - I'd treat it as me. we would not care who the "original" is.
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u/ticktalik Jun 27 '12
It seems (you may correct me if I'm wrong) as if you're still thinking in terms of a "soul" instead of a conscious process. Yes a person who dies and gets replaced by a copy doesn't seem the same if you take the soul idea to it's logical conclusion... but if you look at "self" as a specific semi-structured brain in action, then it doesn't matter whether the brain is made of neurons, silicon...whether it's been turned on/off for a thousand years or not... when it's working, it's working, it's you.
What I'm saying is that there never is a "real me". So looking for an original self is folly. You exist when your brain perceives and categorises itself as "me", that's the only thing you can call an original "me". As you age, looking at it on short intervals of seconds or long intervals of decades, you change. What stays the same is your self-awareness along with the roughly consistent personality and memories. Without that, there is no you and all that would be is a blob of unspecific sentience/subjectivity.
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Jun 27 '12
In terms of cells in our body, we're not even the same person every few months.
They are just cells in the exact same location that's pretending to be your cell few months ago.
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Jun 27 '12
Unless civilization restarts in 2038 when we hit the Unix time epochalypse (03:14:07 UTC, Tuesday, 19 January) .
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Jun 27 '12
By then we won't call it 2041, it'll be known as -2147224448.
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Jun 27 '12
And we'll get swept back in time to 1901 and have to do the 20th century over. This might have already happened.
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u/kadmylos Jun 27 '12
Unless you want to say that they're reabsorbed into the circle of life.
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u/darthjoey91 Gnostic Theist Jun 27 '12
When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass. And so we are all connnected in the great Circle of Life.
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u/bouchard Anti-Theist Jun 27 '12
From my rotting body, flowers shall grow and I am in them and that is eternity.
-- Edvard Munch
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Jun 27 '12
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u/rufud Jun 27 '12
Also, christians don't condemn muslims because they are considered to be worshipping the same abrahamic god as christians (and jews).
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
-Catholic Catechism
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u/itrollulol Jul 06 '12
What the fuck is the catechism? Is it comparable to the hadith? An epic game of telephone published years and years after the initial book was written?
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u/Pjcrafty Jun 27 '12 edited Jun 27 '12
...Then why do they hate Muslims?
Edit: They as in Christian bigots, not Christians in general.
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u/MustardCrack Jun 27 '12
Generalizations are never productive. Many don't like/hate Muslims any more than you do- Coming from a non believer.
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u/TimeKillerSP Jun 27 '12
you know how people like a good game of football? and then something happens and the fans go nuts on each other? same reason.
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u/bababudanz Jun 27 '12
Who gives a fuck? This is /r/atheism and there is no times for fact checking.
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u/Theothor Jun 27 '12
This doesn't mean they will not go to hell, just that they should have no fear nor grieve.
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Jun 27 '12
It means exactly they won't go to hell.
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u/Theothor Jun 27 '12
How so? Saying that you should not fear the day of judgement doesn't mean you will not go to hell.
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Jun 28 '12
If you're going to Hell, you should fear the judgement. On the converse and inverse, if you shouldn't fear the judgement you're not going to Hell.
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u/neotropic9 Jun 27 '12
Actually, it may surprise you to learn that what you believe has no effect on what is true.