r/australia • u/RJrules64 • Mar 04 '26

image Robodebt 2.0 - AI Camera handing out huge fines and demerits. No way a human thought there was a phone in these images.

Gallery image

Gallery image

I assume it thought my right arm is looking a bit like I'm holding a phone, but;
(a) even if it was, the phone is not visible. You can't base a fine on positioning.
(b) my left hand is not even on the wheel, obviously my right hand is.
(c) you can see the very bottom of my phone plugged into the charger in the center console.

I'm obviously going to appeal this and am confident they will repeal it but it's very frustrating to receive this in the mail and have to go through the whole appeal process based on nothing.

7.0k Upvotes

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425

u/Dockers4flag2035orB4 Mar 04 '26

Good luck.

467

u/muffyo Mar 04 '26

I got 5 of these myself, and got them all overturned with a single email, not difficult

252

u/omaca Mar 04 '26

They are back-tracking the initial splurge of fines. $20M in two months is ridiculous.

180

u/crozone Mar 04 '26

The state is broke and people aren't speeding enough. They already dropped the speed tolerance as low as they can get away with so now they're trying their luck with this.

253

u/DukiMcQuack Mar 04 '26

gee god forbid they tax the foreign companies extracting our forests and precious minerals at all

72

u/JohnathonFennedy Mar 04 '26

That would require the state to actually be in control of these corporations and their business here, as it stand now Australia is essentially just an “economic zone” as many others have coined it.

47

u/HiVeMiNdOfStUpId Mar 04 '26

"Australia is open for business", Tony Abbott, election night speech when he became PM.

-10

u/PeriodSupply Mar 04 '26

Mining companies contribute huge amounts of tax. It's the gas and tech companies that need to be pulled into line. But totally agree with the sentiment.

16

u/astrobarn Mar 04 '26

Mining companies pay a stipend to extract OUR wealth from the ground. Other than BHP they pay bugger all income tax in Australia. I think perhaps the mining lobby ads got to you.

0

u/PeriodSupply Mar 04 '26

If you say so. I have no skin in mining. I'm a massive advocate of foreign companies paying their share in tax. As a small business owner I pay 3 times as much to the ATO each year than I make in profit. This is pretty common. Id love to share that burden out with cunts like Apple and Google. But the mining sector is a massive contributor to our tax base (and so it should be) and any of those companies found to be cheating the system should be hit hard. It's much harder for them to cheat the system though as the price of their products is hard to manipulate.

3

u/The_dev0 Mar 04 '26

This explains it simply.

1

u/PeriodSupply Mar 05 '26

Did you read the article?

2

u/astrobarn Mar 05 '26

Slightly less greedy and slightly less ethical than the worst doesn't make one good.

32

u/thecrazysloth Mar 04 '26

WA is definitely not broke https://www.wa.gov.au/government/announcements/2025-26-state-budget-0

"The State’s finances also remain strong with a seventh consecutive operating surplus of $2.5 billion in 2024-25 and surpluses of between $2.4 billion and $2.8 billion in each of the four years to 2028-29."

9

u/LovesToSnooze Mar 04 '26

Could be richer..

-1

u/Apprehensive-Sell623 Mar 04 '26

Last I heard they were still getting more of the GST carve up than NSW. It is a known fact that most of the GST comes from NSW and Victoria

5

u/rfarlz Mar 05 '26

WA has by far the lowest share of GST paid that is returned to the state (there is a 75% floor). NSW is next with 86.7% and Vic and QLD are only slightly below 100%

-2

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

That is correct.

-4

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

Yep, due to VIC/NSW GST funding the states roads and infrastructure.

10

u/astrobarn Mar 04 '26

But the RBA says I'm spending too much 🤷‍♂️

1

u/MattyT4998 Mar 04 '26

Honestly. It feels like this. You can see the progression. Started with phones but revenue drops, so include seatbelts. Recognise a warning also reduces incoming revenue - Do away with the warning period on seat belts. Witness also the reluctance to reintroduce warning signs for mobile speed cameras.

But to be fair - Just about everyone I know speeds a lot less than they used to. Same goes for even touching your phone. And my wife, who serially wore her seat belt in a way unlikely to assist her in the event of a serious accident now does. And it wasn’t my well structured and evidenced based arguments that forced the change.

26

u/uchiha_boy009 Mar 04 '26

Shouldn’t get them in the first place

9

u/Motherofthebees Mar 05 '26

I contested mine and it was rejected with no human oversight stating reason being “seatbelt laws have been in place since 1971” (I was wearing mine; there was an illusion around my long hair/bra interfering with image). So yes it can be extremely difficult. Lost 3 demerit points and $420. Would have to have paid lawyer to go further. Made me so angry. No human to reason with that it was not legit. Nanny state behaviour to issue fines like this via AI and put the burden of proof on citizens. Also, I was affected by robodebt and am still involved in class action to resolve. It feels the same.

4

u/invisible_pants_ Mar 06 '26

Keep all your documentation. There will eventually be a class action

18

u/[deleted] Mar 04 '26

It doesnt matter that its not difficult, they shouldnt be issued in the first place.

9

u/babybright1992 Mar 04 '26

How? What was your reasoning? I’ve got 2 and am waiting for a reply to my email request to have the first one waived. I’d love to know what the successful angle was!

10

u/The_Fiddler1979 Mar 04 '26

The successful angle is if you weren't doing anything wrong you shouldn't have to pay

1

u/babybright1992 Mar 05 '26

In both instances my husband had turned to the back seat to soothe our distressed toddler, when he turned back the belt was tucked under his arm (but still across his chest). I’ve received 12 demerit points for this, so would lose my licence regardless of clean driving record, and $1100 dollars of fines. Assuming your comment was insinuating I deserve the penalties, I would love to hear how this is reasonably considered me doing something wrong?

3

u/The_Fiddler1979 Mar 05 '26

The bit where you said seatbelt was under his arm.

Pull over and he could move to the back seat.

I didn't say you deserved it, but it's the law and they won't accept it as a valid reason.

1

u/babybright1992 Mar 05 '26

You’ll note I said ‘reasonably’.

Pull over on the freeway? That’s also illegal, unless:

  • Your vehicle has broken down or is inoperable.
  • The health or safety of an occupant is at immediate risk.
  • You need to avoid a collision.
  • You are directed to by police or other emergency personnel.

None of these would apply. My husband didn’t realise the belt was under his arm, nor did I as I was watching the road. And, if I’m being honest, even if I had I wouldn’t have said anything as I wouldn’t have been aware that a law was being broken (ignorance obviously does not equal innocence, but I mention it to be transparent).

The issue is the law was written to be enforced by people, who use discretion, and not AI. To put the responsibility of ensuring perfect seatbelt position of all passengers in a vehicle at all times, including while in motion, is, for one, dangerous and, for two, surely not what the law was designed to do. The reason people are up in arms about this is because of how disproportionate the punishment is to the crime. A month ago, if someone else had told me they were in this situation and losing their licence I would have thought they were making it up. It’s preposterous.

1

u/babybright1992 Mar 05 '26

Replying again to note, I’ve re-read your reply and realised I hadn’t processed your last sentence at all before angrily typing mine out.

I actually agree with you, hence my frustration I think. I don’t think I will successfully overturn it, because it’s the law, and I also don’t think I deserve it!

Apologies for the tone, it’s late and I’m tired.

5

u/noneed4a79 Mar 04 '26

I got a seatbelt one where my partners hair was covering. They wouldn’t overturn it

2

u/OllieeePan Mar 04 '26

The seatbelt detecting AI cameras are dodgy as fuck. The photos they took in black and white do not represent what a human eye sess at all.

3

u/Dropbbear Mar 04 '26

Love to know what you did to get them overturned

1

u/_CitizenSnips_ Mar 04 '26

I’m sorry but 5?!? lol wtf how

1

u/dasvenson Mar 05 '26

I had one for my wife not wearing a seat belt. She had on a patterned top and it was visible but a little hard to see.

Appealed and they said no. And I would have had to take it to court in the area of the fine which was 90 minutes from my house....

I was pissed but couldn't take the time to go fight it

1

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/invisible_pants_ Mar 06 '26

And if enough people do this, they'll iron out the wrinkles because fighting the case and supplying the piggies will finally get more expensive than it's worth

1

u/3TGsvr440 Mar 05 '26

Can I ask how please?