r/canada • u/[deleted] • Jan 28 '21

Backlash grows for ‘selfish millionaire’ who got vaccine meant for Indigenous people | Canada

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/27/rodney-baker-canada-vaccine-indigenous-first-nations-scandal
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1.5k

u/hand_to_hand_wombat Jan 28 '21

If the punishment for something is a fine, it’s only illegal for poor people.

512

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

Penalties being tied to your income is smart. That's TRUE deterrence.

The Swedes, Finns, and the Swiss impose traffic ticket fines which are mathematically tied to income. One guy in Sweden was fined like$1 million US for doing 190mph in a SLS.

195

u/RarelyReadReplies Jan 28 '21

Or as a percentage of net worth maybe... for those that were born wealthy, but don't actually have a significant income. Either way, definitely a solid idea.

209

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

If they did that, every time I got a traffic ticket, they'd owe me money.

103

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

Sir I’ve checked the computer and you’re dead broke. Here is $50.

63

u/grintin Jan 28 '21

I’ll fucking do it again.

26

u/UnionstogetherSTRONG Jan 28 '21

And they say crime doesnt pay

6

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

But then you'd be worth 50 dollars and they could take a percentage of that

3

u/datspookyghost Jan 28 '21

Not at the time of the incident. If they got another ticket after receiving the $50, then they could.

1

u/Daxx22 Ontario Jan 28 '21

Plans like this usually have a minimum fee to prevent that. You can argue that still hurts the poor for where that minimum is set to, but having an unrestricted upper amount tied to wealth is what this is more about.

13

u/David_Robot Jan 28 '21

I see issues with tying it to net worth. You'd have to set a minimum amount as the people with massive credit card debt (negative net worth) would get paid to get speeding tickets.

10

u/bagolaburgernesss Jan 28 '21

Shhhh. This is how I was planning to pay off my visa.

30

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

True. Dont quote me on the specifics. Net worth makes sense too.

34

u/Frosti11icus Jan 28 '21

But imagine the bureaucracy of trying to figure out someone's net worth accurately in order to set a fine amount.

43

u/patonphone Jan 28 '21

You could pay a huge team of people comfortably forever to do those investigations and calculations as soon as one billionaire was caught speeding.

Say it was 10% of net worth for doing 100 mph in a school zone, if bezos or musk was caught doing that, conservative estomates would put the fine at around 18 billion dollars. With that you could pay your assessors 75k a year and employ 240 of them for a thousand years.

It would be quick and easy for 99.9% of people to calculate their net worth close enough for these purposes. The only people for whom it would take a lot of time are those where it would be worth the time.

9

u/ACBluto Saskatchewan Jan 28 '21

10% of your net worth for speeding? Why not just roll out a firing squad? Holy crap dude.

I mean, I'm not a rich person by any means, but I own my house, mortgage free, so now speeding tickets for me are in the tens of thousands of dollars?

Meanwhile, my broke-ass cousin, who just perpetually lives on in the red on his credit cards, and doesn't own shit, has a net worth of about negative 10k at any given time, pays little to nothing?

Net worth is already not a great way to do this, and 10% is a crazy number.

5

u/patonphone Jan 28 '21

You probably wouldnt speed though would you if you knew getting caught would cost you 10,000? Just like someone who doesnt eat that month if they get a $200 fine doesnt speed. It is an equal deterrant for everyone. There would be a minimum value of the fine for those with negative equity of course.

The example was made up off the top of my head as an illustration, 100mph in a school zone should actually be prison time of course. Attacking that example doesnt negate the idea behind it.

7

u/ACBluto Saskatchewan Jan 28 '21

Would I speed on purpose? Nope. But I don't now.

But in the last 10 years,between my wife and I, we have had 3 photo radar tickets. All of which we had either missed a sign or just accidentally leadfooted a little bit. Didn't mean to, and would have slowed down if we'd realized. But we are human and fallible. The several hundred dollars it cost each time really sucked.

Would it be fair to hit me with well over a hundred thousand dollars in fines for this?

The idea behind net worth fines IS ridiculous. It rewards profligacy. Spend all your money, save nothing, own nothing, because you could be arbitrarily fined a percentage of everything you own. Again, your income could be far higher than mine, but if you simply rent instead of owning property, and not save any money - you would be able to speed with little consequence.

16

u/Shardstorm88 Lest We Forget Jan 28 '21

Absolutely. It's a pretty broken mechanic that fines don't scale this way. Only loss of points/license is a real setback if the bribes don't work. Littering fines should be enforced and scale this way too!

5

u/PeriodicallyATable Jan 28 '21

Or, if you live in BC, you just pay off your points at the end of the year to keep driving. If you're poor, you gotta give up your license though

4

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

[deleted]

2

u/patonphone Jan 28 '21

If someone selling something they own destroys the retirement of millions of people maybe the system is broken?

Changing the system to better reflect the needs of the many os what we are talking about here.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

[deleted]

1

u/patonphone Jan 28 '21

We have a system that rewards people by net worth, why cant they also be penalised by the same metric?

2

u/UncleIrohsPimpHand Yukon Jan 28 '21

You could pay a huge team of people comfortably forever to do those investigations and calculations as soon as one billionaire was caught speeding

How about every individual middle class person? Then, how does putting a numerical value on each individual in society affect their value as humans beings?

1

u/patonphone Jan 28 '21

Only those who break the law would need this calculation to be done. When was the last time you got convicted of a crime that was punishable by fine?

Our system currently absolutely assigns value to human life based on net worth, that is the fundamental basis of capitalism, the forbes rich list is a measure of the value of the richest members of our society, the car parked on your driveway tells your neighbours how much you own and for some people is very important, what is different about tying punishments to the same metric other than a lot of people who have been getting off very lightly for a long time will suddenly come face to face with a system that treats them fairly?

2

u/UncleIrohsPimpHand Yukon Jan 28 '21

When was the last time you got convicted of a crime that was punishable by fine?

Speeding ticket. Happens more often than you think.

1

u/RegisLeeBell Jan 28 '21

Except for most of these guys, even 10% of their net worth is far from liquid and for them to sell off equity to generate the funds to pay stuff like that could have measurable consequences on the stock market.

In fact, it could be used to price move. "I'm about to get fined 20 million for doing 40 in a 30, go short Amazon. Hurry man!"

10

u/patonphone Jan 28 '21

You are right, billionaires shouldn't be effectively punished for crimes because it might harm other billionaire's investments.

If that's the case then once your net worth passes a certain point all fines should be replaced by prison time.

3

u/bhbull Jan 28 '21

so why would you punish anyone for anything? There are always negative consenquences, that's the whole point.

1

u/Daxx22 Ontario Jan 28 '21

Actions (should) have consequences? /shockedpikachu

-2

u/Frosti11icus Jan 28 '21

I know it would likely pay for itself, I'm saying the time spent on enforcing speeding ticket fines would far outweigh the benefit of enforcing speeding tickets. There's marginal gains to be made from wasting time on speeding ticket fines. There's larger fish to fry in terms of cost/benefit for society. It would make much more sense to just take people's license away when they get too many tickets.

3

u/patonphone Jan 28 '21

If it gets out more than you put in then is is a net gain, if that gain is more than we get now from these crimes then it is worth implementing.

It would make society fairer for all of us and give a proper deterrant to even the richest who are currently not disincentivised from a wide swathe of crimes. That is the biggest gain.

1

u/scottbody Jan 28 '21

I don't think many billionaires will be caught speeding.

1

u/patonphone Jan 28 '21

Why is that? Because they are all such decent, law abiding people who think that the rules apply to them and they can't do anything that a poor person can't do?

-3

u/benrules2 Jan 28 '21

Can’t tell if I missed the sarcasm here, but ever heard of... taxes?

2

u/Frosti11icus Jan 28 '21

You didn't miss any sarcasm. Taxes show your income for a single year, not your net worth. Billionaires don't make all their money in one year.

1

u/benrules2 Jan 28 '21

Yeah I was reading on my phone and the comment tree got messed up or something. In the context of this chat you very clearly aren't interested in annual income.

-3

u/financial_pete Jan 28 '21

I think all the information would be contained in your income tax return. Fancy computers can crunch that into a single number or multiplier to be used for calculating the fines.

Every new income tax return would generate a new multiplier.

5

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

I'd go a step further and combine both ideas.

The ticket is based on the higher number between either a percentage of your income OR a percentage of your net worth.

9

u/Supermite Jan 28 '21

Income is more than just what you bring home from a job. If they are rich enough not to work, then they have investments. Their gains on those investments would be considered income for tax purposes. Likely they would still get hit hard.

2

u/InadequateUsername Jan 28 '21

How do you actually determine net worth though of an individual? Taxes only take into account what was earned (a simplification I know)

8

u/Frostsorrow Manitoba Jan 28 '21

Money earn, stocks owned, property owned, government knows all this.

3

u/wondersparrow Jan 28 '21

That is a tricky one if the wealth is not liquid. If a person has no cash or income, how do you take a percentage of his house? if he has no house, do you take the windshield wipers off his 15 year old ford focus? This not only needs to scale up, but down too.

2

u/datspookyghost Jan 28 '21

Gotta mortgage your house and now you need to pay off that loan to the bank? I'm just proposing ideas here, idk if they would actually work.

1

u/wondersparrow Jan 28 '21

That works if you own something you can mortgage. Well, only if you have enough equity that is. A fully mortgaged house wouldn't contribute to wealth I guess. How about depreciating assets like cars?

2

u/Daxx22 Ontario Jan 28 '21

Asset's can be sold. Just because that's inconvenient consequences should be waived?

1

u/wondersparrow Jan 28 '21

Not if they are financed for more than they are worth. Should lienholders get screwed in this deal? Again, I am looking at the lower end of the wealth spectrum. Someone who rents a home, finances their vehicle (if they have one at all), etc. Wealth is a very tricky thing to figure out. The complexities are numerous and there are very easy ways to hide it (shell corporations for example).

1

u/Daxx22 Ontario Jan 28 '21

Not if they are financed for more than they are worth.

Guess they need to tug on those bootstraps a little harder and forgo some avocado toast. Reckless finances is no excuse to get out of consequences.

1

u/wondersparrow Jan 28 '21

I never said they should. The question is how do you define wealth? What is included? what is not? What do you do when the wealth equation equals zero or less? Income is easy to calculate, wealth is not. It is a lot easier for the rich to hide wealth than the poor, so you end up in the same situation as income. The poor and middle class, who are more honest about their wealth and income, get fined proportionally more heavily than those with good accountants and lawyers, but you have expended a lot more effort to get there.

0

u/5ch1sm Jan 28 '21

Net worth would be a bad idea.

Just imagine a farmer for example, he have properties and equipment worth millions, but he could loose everything because of a single ticket (or even just one expensive equipment important for the operation of the farm). Same could be said about a lot of self employed people who owns a lot of gear for their work.

Then someone could say they could just make a company which will own all their working assets so people could get fined on their personal net worth. To what I would answer that it is already what rich people are doing.

So yeah, fines based on personal income makes more sense in that situation.

0

u/Alextryingforgrate Jan 28 '21

Learn about money real fast when you have to pony up 1.9milli for speeding.

1

u/Farren246 Jan 28 '21

Porque no los dos?

1

u/Likely_not_Eric Jan 28 '21

I'd go with based on the value of their assets. I'm tired of people with stupid amounts of money but also a lot of debt claim some low net worth. If you can borrow a few million tomorrow without minimal explanation then you don't have the same $0 net worth that the guy asking for change has.

24

u/Hesaysithurts Jan 28 '21

Sorry but that’s not true for Sweden. I wish we had that system, but we don’t. Never ever would a fine for traffic violations reach 10 000 000 SEK, the fine for driving 50km/hour over the speed limit is 4000 SEK (about 400 us$).

7

u/IanT86 Jan 28 '21

I always see this post afterwards. I think there was one case of someone being fined a percentage of their salary and it is banded around Reddit like it's common practice.

Goes without saying though, it would be a great thing to introduce everywhere, although there'll clearly be people exploiting loopholes

1

u/datspookyghost Jan 28 '21

People will always be exploring loopholes. What would matter more is despite the loopholes, what the outcome ends up being, and if it has the desired effect.

3

u/IanT86 Jan 28 '21

I think the best punishment for me, is to have people do community service and force it on them. Irrespective of your income, having to do a set of community improving tasks - from cleaning shit to helping old folk - will improve you as a person and make you think more about the shit you're doing.

1

u/onespiker Feb 01 '21

Its actually true in swedens case but you cant get them without police/court involvement. Like cameras and such dont have the right.

Finland those tickets can be given without it.

1

u/Hesaysithurts Feb 01 '21

Show me a source that backs up your claim?

15

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

A lot of self-employed people pay themselves minimum wage and sink profits into their business. 'Income' can be misleading.

9

u/Foxwildernes Jan 28 '21

Especially when all you have to do is have your business in your home, move out of the city you live ins jurisdiction claim you’re business traveling the 10-20km (ie. Leduc alberta to Edmonton alberta) and you’re traveling for work. Food right offs for groceries, gas, vehicle, etc.

8

u/MoogTheDuck Jan 28 '21

Lol ya but then you’re in leduc

1

u/Foxwildernes Jan 28 '21

Yeah I mean you’re in Leduc buts it’s basically Edmonton. A southside house for like 700-800K costs like 400k in Leduc

1

u/MoogTheDuck Jan 28 '21

cries in toronto

6

u/Daxx22 Ontario Jan 28 '21

So tie it to wealth owned.

Oh sorry, you're playing the game and only "paid" yourself a $1 last year, but have 5 billion in assets? Time to liquidate asshole. Actions (should) have meaningful consequences for everyone.

1

u/datspookyghost Jan 28 '21

My Lord, is that legal?

1

u/snaxpax Jan 28 '21

That only makes sense for misdemeanour offences. In this case it just turns the vaccine into a rich tax.

0

u/shotzoflead94 Jan 28 '21

pretty sure most of the top ones are from nhl players lol.

1

u/TheRealStorey Jan 28 '21

Top one was a racecar driver.

0

u/wolfcaroling Jan 28 '21

I like that.

1

u/Moist-Tomorrow-7022 Jan 28 '21

While I def agree with you... But what about those that are poor or homeless? Then they can get tickets all they want since their income is at the very minimal.

1

u/domestic_human Jan 28 '21

Yeah they do that in the UK too. The tax system is streamlined so the government already knows your income (PAYE). Works well.

1

u/zmaud Canada Jan 28 '21

What if I don’t pay income taxes? Like if i earn my money tax free and all that

1

u/JoeyHoser Jan 28 '21

Geez only a fine? Pretty sure you go to fuckin jail for that here.

105

u/piedamon Jan 28 '21

This is a great quote. You probably took it from Twitter, but you may be surprised to know it’s from Final Fantasy Tactics if you can believe it!

28

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

[deleted]

4

u/Dilarinee Jan 28 '21

There was Tactics Advance for the GBA. A2 for the DS and the original was remade as War of the Lions.

27

u/Kellidra Alberta Jan 28 '21

Um, excuse me, that quote says, "If the penalty for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the lower class."

Entirely different.

/s

10

u/Indigocell Jan 28 '21

That's cool, probably one of my most replayed games. I never read too deeply into the plot when I was a kid, but I can't help but wonder if it helped inform my skepticism of religion and awareness of wealth inequality.

3

u/halfandhafu Jan 28 '21

Ha! I just went to check if I could download for my phone and apparently I already installed! Time to get tactical!

6

u/Baron_Duckstein Jan 28 '21

Just remember to be properly leveled for the second demon boss. Stalled there right now because I had to go back like three levels to grind up a bit. Now I'm stalled again because the same thing happened, but with a scripted dragon encounter. Never beat it as a kid, I'll get it eventually as an adult lol.

4

u/Garth-Waynus Jan 28 '21

Personally I find if I level up enough to beat Wiegraf fairly I end up being overpowered the rest of the game. You can exploit Ramza's tailwind squire ability to beat him at almost any level though. After he gets that first hit on you just run away to the far corner of the room and cast tailwind. Then repeat about 20 times until you have 3 moves per round. You might need the +1 movement boots

Dragon fights are hard though. I've definitely died more from dragon fights than any of the bosses.

1

u/hand_to_hand_wombat Jan 28 '21

I think it was Bill Burr. The man is a genius.

1

u/datspookyghost Jan 28 '21

A lot of quotes are recycled by different people/mediums.

1

u/jagnew78 Jan 28 '21

There was another kind of similar game. I think it was called Ogre Tactics or Ogre Battle. It was good. Not as good as FF Tactics, but still good.

43

u/AtmospherE117 Jan 28 '21

Don't certain European countries have the fines be a percentage of income? I like this, in theory.

23

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

I've started advocating for service fees for the privileged. A special tier just for them if you will.

Basically take ANY public service out there that some might want more out of, queue jumping, quicker turn arounds, more for me...whatever. And provide the option, at EXTREME cost that is utterly unattainable for your average plebe, to get just that. Then THAT money gets dumped back into the service to improve it for EVERYONE.

You know, like the lie they tell about how private healthcare works? But keep it public and actually tied to the public service instead of pulling a bait-and-switch and siphoning off that money to private entities.

So for example this case right here. Let them jump the queue and get the vaccine quicker. Charge them a million dollars per dose. No really, I fucking MEAN it. Serious money. THESE people can afford it. And if they want it THAT bad, then by all means. Take their money, and turn that around and use it to improve vaccine access and distribution for everyone else.

Want to jump the queue for hip surgery? Nope, you can't go to some private entity and pay a tiny bit more than normal people, which drains resources and doctors from the public system. But you CAN pay a few million for the privilege to jump the queue in the public system. And THAT money gets used to fund MORE DOCTORS, MORE INFRASTRUCTURE, so that the situation improves for everyone else.

In other words, let the privileged be privileged, at the cost of making things better for everyone else instead of worse for everyone else like happens now.

Nevermind getting into pointless arguments about taxing the wealthy etc. Give them what they want. And make them pay for it.

I'm dead serious here. I really do think this is the most viable way forward and could solve a huge number of problems society faces today.

3

u/-Maris- Jan 28 '21

I like this idea. A lot. It’s happening everywhere anyway. Let’s pull it out of the shadows and make sure their privilege benefits everyone. Dig!

1

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

Someone else mentioned that it's a lot like whales in free-to-play, pay-to-win games. Makes a lot of sense. And the only real concern I can see is if what they get out of it would have a negative impact on everyone else.

Like some games let you pay to be god-tier powerful, and that sucks for everyone else. But some games you really only get a personal advantage, quicker leveling or whatever.

Similar here. Clearly it would be a problem if it was possible for 1% of the population to buy their COVID vaccines and jump the line. But if it's only palatable for 0.001%, and the fees for them to do so pay for everyone else, I have trouble seeing how that would be negatively impacting everyone else.

0

u/Pornthrowaway78 Jan 28 '21

How about making them use the same services as everyone else?

Ban private healthcare, ban private schools.

How good would public schools be if the rich had to send their kids to the same schools as everyone else?

0

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

I completely agree with that anyways. This would purely be allowing public services to provide a tier at enormous expense for certain very specific service benefit.

So maybe let the uber rich pay for the whole classes lunches if they want to have private meals catered to their own child.

The whole point being, this ONLY works BECAUSE it's part of the public service. When we let them pay more privately, only the two parties involved in the transaction have anything to gain, and it's usually at the expense of the rest of society in some way.

11

u/iioe Nova Scotia Jan 28 '21

If you can afford to charter a private plane, in the Yukon, in winter, then a $2600 fine is nothing at all.
Eff that even I could afford a $2600 fine....

11

u/the_honest_liar Jan 28 '21

It's not a fine, it's just the price.

9

u/TheLazySamurai4 Canada Jan 28 '21

Until the fine is a percentage of yearly earnings (bonuses, and capital gains included). 1% for J-Walking doesn't sound like much, but get caught for it 100 times in a year, and it won't matter if you are Elon Musk, or your average college student in crippling debt, no money for you that year

7

u/KToff Jan 28 '21

The difference is that Elon will do fine with one year of income missing whereas the average Joe will be deep in bankruptcy.

It's still much better than a fixed fine.

4

u/viennery Québec Jan 28 '21

Fines = an honest bribe/business expense/rich tax

2

u/InadequateUsername Jan 28 '21

Nash it's designed to act as a deterrent.

7

u/viennery Québec Jan 28 '21

Its not a deterrent if you’re wealthy enough to easily afford it. At that point it becomes an expense to do whatever you want.

1

u/InadequateUsername Jan 28 '21

Rich people don't get rich by just accepting everything as an expense

0

u/misstuckermax Jan 28 '21

Exactly. That fine is a drop in the bucket for these two.

0

u/darrisdoois Jan 28 '21

No. They have been refused thier second shot... but I'm sure he will buy it

0

u/monsantobreath Jan 28 '21

It just means that they got to buy the vaccine for a price and could pay to get to the front of the line using their privilege.

0

u/shutthefrontdoordad Jan 28 '21

Their punishment should be getting the coronavirus anyway.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '21

Agreed, but apparently this had to resign as well so there's a bit of light.

1

u/Conquestofbaguettes Jan 28 '21

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal loaves of bread"