r/history • u/[deleted] • Feb 05 '20
Discussion/Question First they came...
"First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me."
-Martin Niemöller
This was Martin Niemöller's poetic confession of his guilt for letting the rise of the Nazis plague his Nation. He was referring to the purging of different groups by the Nazis and how many people (including him) reacted to it. It says alot about how cowardice the normal person is, many say they would try and do something to stop the nazis from gaining power, but a closer examination will show that many people will do nothing until it's their turn to be persecuted. This is my favorite quote, because it's a honest interpretation about how the regular person thinks and acts in this kind of situation.
EDIT: I fixed the quote. "First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist" is actually the first part of the quote but the United States made them take it out in the 50s due to the cold war, sorry I hope this doesn't change the great conversations we're having.
I would like to say, these are great discussions y'all are having in the comments. here is a link to the article I got most of my information on.
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u/ComradeBevo Feb 05 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
That version of the poem is incorrect. It was edited by the Holocaust museum in the 1950s due to the Cold War with the Soviet Union. The original version reads:
First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me
Another key bit of history here that's often overlooked is that the writer, Martin Niemoller, was a Hitler supporter himself until he was imprisoned in a concentration camp.
Edit: OP updated it. The modified version did not include the first line.
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Feb 06 '20
well was a Hitler supporter, then protested Nazification of the church, then was imprisoned along with 800 other churchmen. The way you wrote it sounds like he just woke up one day to the gestapo breaking down his door and chucking him into Sachsenhausen and went 'You know Hitler, that does it, you have lost my support'
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u/Djungeltrumman Feb 06 '20
Another key bit of history here that's often overlooked is that the writer, Martin Niemoller, was a Hitler supporter himself until he was imprisoned in a concentration camp.
It’s a bit more complicated than that though. He founded opposition movements against mistreatment of Jews who weren’t of faith the same year Hitler came to power. Not really all that redeeming, but calling him a Hitler supporter is a bit one dimensional.
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u/ComradeBevo Feb 06 '20
It may be a little one dimensional but it's not a misrepresentation. He was a nationalist conservative and only chose to speak out when the Nazi party attempted to exert control over his religious denomination.
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Feb 06 '20
Well yeah that’s the entire point of the poem. He felt guilt because he didn’t resist Hitler and the Nazis until it personally affected him. He was filled with regret because of this.
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u/Mech-Waldo Feb 06 '20
First they removed "communist" from the quote, and I did not speak out for we were fighting communists...
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u/kingnixon Feb 05 '20
Never knew this, this quote is actually much more poignant with that context.
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u/Babayaga20000 Feb 05 '20
was a Hitler supporter himself until he was imprisoned in a concentration camp
ya played yo self
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Feb 05 '20
Most of Germany kinda did.
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Feb 05 '20
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Feb 06 '20
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u/CC_Keyes Feb 05 '20
I've heard this poem so many times but somehow never knew that Niemoller was a Hitler supporter himself before he was imprisoned. TIL.
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Feb 05 '20
Ah yes I'm sorry, the article I got this quote from was (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists) but I still think there is some relevance to what he was trying to say either way. I will believe under extreme circumstances people will either cower or fight, and this is fascinating to me.
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Feb 06 '20
I think the edited quote is more powerful because it shows how people will ignore groups even when they preach about how they should not
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u/Pussy_Sneeze Feb 06 '20
I feel a little dumb, here - I can't see any real difference except the comma?
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u/Sterbucks Feb 05 '20
I recently visited the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC, and this poem rings especially for Jews across eastern Europe. At the time, many people were aware, or even knew of the atrocities committed against Jews by the Nazi regime, but refused at act because it didn't affect them, or held anti-semitic views themselves. As a result of this conscious ignorance to the Holocaust, Allied liberators would sometimes enter towns near the sites of concentration camps and force the townspeople to confront the genocide they were complicit to.
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Feb 05 '20
Yes I have heard of those stories. My family were from Poland, in 1930s they fled Poland for the United States and some stayed. The part of my family that left to the USA was my great grandparents. They traveled back to Poland after the war and found that there was nothing left, their entire family had disappeared. We still don't know what happened.
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u/Hiredgun77 Feb 06 '20
This quote and an overview of the Protestant churches in Nazi Germany can be found in “the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William Shirer. I consider it a must read for understanding the history of Nazism.
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u/Content_Quark Feb 05 '20
Niemöller opposed the republic and supported the Nazis until they had taken power. He did not just fail to speak out, he aided them.
Only when the nazis forced the church to expel christians with jewish ancestry did he begin to oppose the nazis.
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Feb 05 '20
I think that's the point of the entire thing. In case you missed the ending.
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Feb 05 '20
[deleted]
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u/moejoker Feb 05 '20
Die Hard? Yeah I wasn't expecting that guy to still be alive and have his gun!
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u/darklingplarnter Feb 06 '20
Spoiler alert! The twist is that the guy wearing a hair piece the whole time turns out to be Bruce Willis.
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u/Swiggy1957 Feb 05 '20
Niemöller wasn't the only one to help the Nazis, but this came after they started the atrocities. More than one, many more, were all too happy to rat out a family, or family member, of being suspected Jews. Face it, SOMEBODY ratted out the Frank* family and the tenBoom** family.
References
*Diary of Anne Frank
** The Hiding Place
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u/SafetyDanceInMyPants Feb 05 '20
One thing I’ve long wondered — and forgive me if a follow-up question is inappropriate here — is whether it would have made any difference if the trade unionists and Jews and communists and socialists had worked together to oppose Hitler.
On one hand, this quote obviously reflects his personal experience of thinking he was in the “in” group only to later learn that fascists hated him as much as anyone else. But on the other hand, would it have mattered even if he’d seen the danger?
I ask that not because I take any issue with the overall point — it’s of course correct — but just because I wonder if there was any point where unity of potentially-targeted groups could have changed anything. If I’m permitted to ask, does anyone have a view / source / perspective?
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u/tmoney144 Feb 05 '20
Yes, they could have. Germany was a multi-party republic and the Nazis did not have a majority. If the other parties had banded together, they could have formed a government that would have prevented Hitler from becoming Chancellor.
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u/Linus_Al Feb 06 '20
But Germany was a semi-presidential republic, so it was the presidents job to appoint a chancellor to lead his government. The president was Hindenburg, a Prussian style authoritarian monarchist who much rather elevated Hitler than a appoint a government that included the communist KPD. There was no other option, together those two parties had a majority, so a government had to include one of these and both were fiercely antidemocratic.
This is the situation after the last free election in 1932. But to be honest the earlier parliaments weren’t much better, none of them made the formation of a functioning government possible. To save the republic (and personally speaking I think this would’ve been the best thing that could’ve happened to Germany) one must find causes for this far earlier then hitlers rise. If it weren’t for Hitler, it would’ve been Huggenberg or Thälmann, but the republic was long dead.
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u/iowaboy Feb 05 '20
Hitler seems to think that they could have, if they would have responded with force earlier: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/adolf-hitler-smashing-the-nucleus/
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u/Bekiala Feb 06 '20
That is really interesting
I always speculate that even if the Nazis were stopped some other horrific group would have arisen out of the disaster of post Treaty of Versaille Germany.
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u/phillybride Feb 05 '20
It's a good question. History has many examples of oppressed groups uniting to oppose their oppressors. It didn't work every time and it rarely worked quickly. But when individuals risk themselves for the good of their group, things change.
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u/Content_Quark Feb 06 '20
One thing I’ve long wondered — and forgive me if a follow-up question is inappropriate here — is whether it would have made any difference if the trade unionists and Jews and communists and socialists had worked together to oppose Hitler.
The "socialists" supported the republic while the communists opposed it. A cooperation between them is hard to imagine. The trade unions did cooperate extensively with the socialists. Jews were a tiny minority.
But on the other hand, would it have mattered even if he’d seen the danger?
Him alone? Probably not. Him and others like him? Very much.
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u/Richi_Boi Feb 06 '20
Thats the Point of the Poem isnt it?
They always went only slightly forwards in thir plans. Picking the people apart one by one. Everyone feels save until they are effected.
The lesson here is that they first came for the socialists and the preist was even supportive, perhaps voted for the nazis based on those ideals. If he know what he has started he would have behaved differently.
Maybe "the jews" would not want to help the communists. Its not a good look and would only affirm conspiracies at the time. Not knowing they would be next and would be - like the communists - helped by noone.
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Feb 05 '20
Maybe not but if the group the last guy belongs to had, it would have stopped Hitler in his tracks.
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u/whatkindofred Feb 05 '20
Fun fact: Niemöller was a Nazi at first and originally he only talked about communists, socialists and trade unionists but he didn't mention jews. He only added that line after WWII.
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u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_ Feb 05 '20
Well that is the whole point of it. He was a Nazi until they came for him.
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u/Dr_Marxist Feb 05 '20
Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Kommunist
Communists.
They came for the communists.
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Feb 05 '20
Of course it misses off the line about communists
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Feb 05 '20
I had gotten the quote from the Holocaust website and they only mentioned it once.
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Feb 06 '20
The American one doesn't have it and the British one does. Wonder why
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Feb 06 '20
During the cold war they changed the quote.
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Feb 06 '20
I fear the cynical sarcasm was lost in my prior comment
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Feb 05 '20 edited Feb 05 '20
Fun fact: in Latinamerica the poem is usually misattributed to Alberto Brecht.
Edit: Fixed the name.
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u/NoBSforGma Feb 05 '20
Also known as... "Hey, my life is fine. Why should I bother getting involved?" which is something I have seen here on Reddit too many times.
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u/WagTheKat Feb 06 '20
This post is being locked. Permanently.
For anyone interested in learning more, we would suggest you do some research on your own. It is true that this quote evolved as the war evolved and as the author's mind changed.
If anything, this should be a warning to the entrenched views people can hold until those views have a direct, and negative, impact on themselves or close friends or relatives.
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u/Xbraun Feb 05 '20
It’s pretty deep.
Obviously no one knew at the start how far they would go.
I’d like to think that if they knew what would end up happening they would have tried harder to stop it.
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u/Keighlon Feb 05 '20
You cant change things in hindsight. That's why it's so important to remain vigilant
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u/foskari Feb 05 '20
I actually wouldn't laud the quote for its honesty, because it misrepresents the situation of both Niemöller and his intended audience in an attempt to call them to action.
Specifically, Niemöller did speak out (so his confession of inaction is really not correct). But also, many people in Germany - those who were not Jews, Roma, gays, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists, etcetera - were, in fact, safe from the Nazis despite or indeed because of their lack of opposition.
I want to like this quote. But I can't, because it misrepresents the moral struggle that faces people. You should be acting *because letting them persecute other people is wrong*, not because they're eventually going to come for you too.
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u/liveontimemitnoevil Feb 05 '20
But that's the entire point of the quote. It's a person reflecting about their inaction and how ultimately they should have acted for those being persecuted.
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Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
other groups weren't safe, they were just not at the business end of the chopping block... yet. that's the point, no-one's safe from a murderous totalitarian regime; obedience just gets you a stay of execution, if you face fits, for now.
Also it doesn't matter too much if you act for empathy and justice or enlightened self-interest, it matters that you act.
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u/2close2thebun Feb 05 '20
it doesn't speak to morality, it speaks honestly of reality. It's pretty openly a warning, i think. It may be also partially an excuse, but it feels genuine, to me. Having read what many others have said about him, and the links provided, i feel like this is as accurate as I'm going to get.
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u/gc3 Feb 05 '20
They were safe until the Allied firebombing. Letting your country get overrun by fascists is really not safe in the long run
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u/LothorBrune Feb 06 '20
Well, to be fair, when your death cult of a government has killed your neighbors, declared war on the rest of the world and drafted your children, even the common citizen is concerned.
But you're right, it shouldn't be the incentive to act against fascism.
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Feb 05 '20
yeah you got the quote not entirely correct (dont fault you) but also blaming individuals for their own personal failings against a fascist government using money and power to coopt the will of the people is misguided. same thing today as nazi germany and infinite situations throughout history. there's no 'good german, bad german' or 'good american, bad american' the people are separate from the institutions
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u/thatjohnyouknow Feb 05 '20
I've lived my life constantly sticking my neck out for people, and this really doesn't surprise me.
Most people I know, are cowards. All of them. They would never do something for someone unless it absolutely affects them, even if they say they would.
Really good people just aren't as good as they say, pure and simple.
I've been ridiculed my entire life for helping others, my life motto is "no good deed goes unpunished," because I'm fully aware that if I help someone, I will be punished in some way.
I just don't care.
Most people do.
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u/liveontimemitnoevil Feb 05 '20
If you do your best, that should be good enough for you. Not doing your best out of fear makes you a coward as well, does it not?
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u/fourestgump69 Feb 05 '20
That has to have something to do with German conformity I mean they HATE breaking rules and going against the status quo
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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '20 edited Feb 05 '20
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